How do you define a lie?

[TheCotMan]

We covered cheating, what about lies?

What is a lie to you? When is it acceptable to lie? Taxes? Telling your sig-O they look good? When you are working on social engineering?

[astcell]

There is an old saying that if two people have a conversation there are three different versions of that conversation. The one from one person, the one from the other person, and the one that really happened.

The word "lie" is too broad in the English language. A lie can be telling a sick person they will be alright so they reast easier, and it can be out and out fraud. Sort if like the word "kill". There are many versions of killing, from killing to eat, killing for vengeance, through killing for sport.

"Lie" is the same.

[Second]

Man...Cot going with a theme of moral questions? Haha that's cool, it's interesting to see what people really believe. Let's see, cheating, lying, is stealing next?

But seriously, I think lying is a harder one to talk about. It's a lot more difficult to condemn something that you tend to do more often. Like, I don't want to say "every form of lying is wrong" when you catch yourself doing it all the time. If it wasn't evident in other threads or my sig, I am a Christian, and like I said in the cheating thread, the Bible outlines lying as well. Astcell brings up a good point about telling a sick person "it's going to be ok" when you know they don't have a chance. What does the Bible say about that? Is it ok? Sometimes? When? To be honest I don't really know everything about it. If you think it's wrong to lie to them, you might just be lying to yourself if you tell them they are looking good. Tough questions Cot. I'll have to see what others say and think more about it myself.

[TheCotMan]

"Lie" is the same.

Even though the meaning of a lie is not clear to everyone, it seems that a large majority tend to agree that intention seems to be a big part-- much like our discussion on cheating. :-)

going with a theme of moral questions?

Well, the other one was a good topic, so I thought I would try another in the same realm.I am trying a variety of different topics to see if I can better understand the population of the forums in more than one way. (heh-heh)

I'll have to see what others say and think more about it myself.

I've read a few books on con games (many outline real world con games and some are told by the people who commited them.) Several examine definitions of, "lie," and they provide no rock solid answers except: "it depend on who is asked." So.. I am asking here.

[kallahar]

There's also the question of what you consider to be good or bad.

While I consider many things to be lies, that doesn't mean I won't do them if I decide the penalty for lying is better than the gain from it.

[TheCotMan]

There's also the question of what you consider to be good or bad.

While I consider many things to be lies, that doesn't mean I won't do them if I decide the penalty for lying is better than the gain from it.

Oooo! This is a good point. Rightousness on purpose as justification for actions (like lying.)

Obvious example where many would agree lying is justified:
A woman knows where here 4 children are hidden. She knows if her kids are going to be found, they will be executed. She also knows that she is going to be killed anyway.
Now she is asked if she knows where her children are...

Intention is to deceive. Purpose is to hide data. Purpose if for personal gain (from the perspective of avoided loss.) Intent partly comes into play, but in a broader scope. it is a lie by review of most voters (above) but appears to be justified.

Nice!

[astcell]

Well TheCotMan, to be technical, I lie every day. I don't mean I lie to get away with stuff for personal gain, but folks ask me why I have a nice camera and I lie. I may say I am a tourist, I work for the movie industry, I work for a mapping company, I work for an insurance company. The truth is it is no one's business why I have a freakin' camera on public property, but I really do not want to get into an argument over semantics or give lessons on photography and the law to a tourist from Witchita. My time is way too valuable.

At first I felt bad by deceiving someone so that I could be left alone. (How many times do you say "Can't talk right now, I'm busy" when someone calls you on the phone while you are playing Tetris?) Now I no longer feel bad at all, in fact I like to dream up new, original answers to say to people.

I guess I'm becoming pathological. Now that begs the point if such a trait is nature or nurture.

[lil_freak]

I was not going to post because I have lots of veiws on this topic and also more than one opinion related to each item, but I felt why keep these to myself.

The act of lying can fall into many categories all based on how an individual would define the above options. I think lying is wrong but, what constitutes lying? Like any other subject there are and should be exceptions. With that said <very long post>

Giving information you know is not true and Intention to deceive/mislead with content: If one has a job/position in which they must submit to giving information which is not true then I would say that it can be justified that the lie was okay.

Example: Undercover agent/officer/cop has to try and get into a group run by hostile drug runners, in order to this the agent/officer/cop must take on the identity/persona of someone who would be accepted into group to obtain more information before a bust/takedown/warrant can be administered and acted on. To do this the agent/officer/cop must give information they know is not true and must portray that information in a way that it would deceive or mislead other into thinking that information they were given was the truth.


Omission of facts you know are desired and Omissions of facts, period: the difficulty in proving that one has intended to avoid or create a defamatory implication is very hard to prove without actual proof that such an event/issue has taken place. However, I feel that this subject falls on a very thin line, take for instance the following:

Example(1): A person wishes to buy a firearm, in doing so this person must fill out a “Firearms Transaction Record” and have a background check done. In filling out the form the person marks “no” on the question “Are you an unlawful user of, addicted to, marijuana, or any depressant, stimulant, or narcotic drug, or any other controlled substance?” When in actual life this person is and should have answered “yes”, but decided to leave this fact out (omission of facts). In this example I feel that this would be lying and unlawful because the document that is being filled out contains a false statement or misrepresenting or omitting a material fact for the purpose of benefit
Example(2): A person who writes stories for a local newspaper is writing an article on a raid that took place. In order to write to this story this person will have to obtain information from various sources. One of the sources is the “Community Relations Officer” for the agency that took part in the raid; the source must leave out/ due an omission of some of the facts to keep informants, detainees, and agents clear of bias conclusions on guilt before a trail takes place, etc. In this example I feel that it was okay to use some sort of omission of facts help keep the well being of further findings related to the raid safe.


Non-truthful statements: lying in my opinion, period.

Hiding the truth: My comment on this one would take up way to much room, so I will not post on this one. However, I might come back later and post on this.

So called, "white lies": Unless a person has a weighty moral reason not to be straightforward then I could see “white lies” as being okay, however for the most part “white lies” are still a form of lying.

Non-truthful statements where something is gained/motive: How good are your “Social Engineering” skills and why would you use them?

Statistics/Benchmarks: Um, what if you mess up calculating something, would that be lying or just an error? Hard to say on this one, however I feel it would not fall under lying. Then again I also feel that it could if someone was changing items around to benefit from them.

Acting/ Practical Jokes / "messing with people": No comment, but April Fool’s jokes should not create mass hysteria when attempting to play out. (Long story, will never do anything like that again)

Unintentional non-truthful statements? (bad memory): Not lying, understandable.
I forgot what my cell phone number was once and didn’t have it with me, thus causing me to give out the wrong number, later to be fixed.

Reporting something you believe is true, but is really not: You have to love “Urban Legends.”

Taken from: How Stuff Works

Generally speaking, an urban legend is any modern, fictional story, told as truth, that reaches a wide audience by being passed from person to person. Urban legends are often false, but not always. A few turn out to be largely true, and a lot of them were inspired by an actual event but evolved into something different in their passage from person to person. More often than not, it isn't possible to trace an urban legend back to its original source -- they seem to come from nowhere.

Thematically, urban legends are all over the map, but several persistent elements do show up again and again. Typically, urban legends are characterized by some combination of humor, horror, warning, embarrassment, morality or appeal to empathy. They often have some unexpected twist that is outlandish but just plausible enough to be taken as truth.

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[astcell]

Anyone remember the old Twilight Zone episode where aliens come down and grab a man who boasts about having done everything? Seems the alien culture has no concept of lies, so they think everything he says is the truth.

[AcidCold]

I believe a lie would be to hide and not to tell the truth and then by sugar-coating it so no one won't believe you're lieing atleast while lieing telling it in a twisted discreet manner so that the person won't have a second thought about you lieing first hand.

[TheCotMan]

Now that begs the point if such a trait is nature or nurture.

Good question. Could it be both? One in some cases, and the other in others?

I was not going to post ... , but I felt why keep these to myself.

It is show and tell day. Everyone gets to show, and tell.

Giving information you know is not true and Intention to deceive/mislead with content: If one has a job/position in which they must submit to giving information which is not true then I would say that it can be justified that the lie was okay.

Hee hee. ]:>
I have a question with this one. If a person is self-employed, and their jobs (to gain income/make a living) required lying, would that count?
Other "Professions" ?: Con Artist, Telemarketer, Politician, Cult Leader, Car salesperson, Lawyer, etc.

Omission of facts you know are desired and Omissions of facts, period: ...falls on a very thin line, take for instance...
Example(2): A person who writes stories...

Good example.

Non-truthful statements: lying in my opinion, period.

What about this question: (Parenthetical statement is not spoken)
Q: Do you have one cup of sugar?
A: No. (I have 2 cups of sugar.)

Is this "A:" a lie? ]:>
How about acting? (Consider Galaxy Quest, and how "acting" was described to the aliens.)

Hiding the truth: My comment on this one would take up way to much room ... I might come back later and post on this.

Cool deal.

Non-truthful statements where something is gained/motive: How good are your “Social Engineering” skills and why would you use them?

So, in addition to intent, and rightousness, we also have purpose?

Statistics/Benchmarks: Um, what if you mess up calculating something, would that be lying or just an error?

Better/related: What if it was an error, and resulted in statistics/enchmarks in your favor, but we know it was made by the subconscious mind? (We're making an assumption for the sake of discussion). Is that a lie? What about "iincompetence" where a mistake was made by not being rigorous and stopping when you found results you liked or assumed were true?

Acting/ Practical Jokes / "messing with people": No comment, but April Fool’s jokes should not create mass hysteria when attempting to play out. (Long story, will never do anything like that again)

Like a radio show that made it sound like aliens were attacking earth?

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Liar! Heh-heh. :-)