My #1 biggest problem with DEFCON this year...

[bascule]

...was that the environment had totally changed (duh). The AP was a great place for chance encounters, and most people could be found by simply wandering around the pools.

This year: not so. Plans I had arranged with people, who I had even met at one event or another, never happened because I never encountered those people the rest of con and didn't have their phone numbers. There were several people who had wanted to meet up with me later at con who I ran into at TBBQ (CotMan, Rubyman, Crash, Goathead) but never saw the entire rest of con, except at the tail end.

So what's the solution in the new environment? Should I just ask everyone for their phone numbers before con?

As things stood, I ended up spending a lot more time wandering around the strip than I did the Riviera... it just seemed much harder to find anyone, and the capacity to have totally random encounters with people totally vanished due to a lack of a central area in which to congregate.

Anyone else feel similarly?

[latras]

I think that a message board in the chill-out/contest room would be a good idea. That's where I went if I wasn't doing anything....that and the defcon bar.

but trading cell #'s beforehand worked for me...and text messaging too...

[jedi]

Just having a feel for the layout and understanding where the different conf rooms are will make a huge difference next year. Between the air conditioning and not having to wait in line for a talk, it was a much more mellow con.

But I agree. At the riviera, it didn't feel like there was one location where you could chill at night and encounter any number of folks. At least at the AP, the pools tended to be the central points of congregation for people looking to hang out and talk.

[BlackOrchid]

I agree with the lack of centralization of the pool congregation. This was my major complaint during the con. But I'd like to add that even if we would have wanted to gather there:

1. We weren't allowed to bring in a cooler.

2. There was a lack of regular chairs and tables.

3. ONLY TWO umbrellas so there was a serious lack of shade.

4. NON-Con people at the pool, which removed that 'comfortability' (regarding body size, shape etc).

5. No music/DJ allowed

6. The POOL area was closed too early!

7. Where were the Jack Daniels, Heineken, booze and trinkets peddling chics? In otherwords, I missed the poolside entertainment/games...etc.

With these lacks, it seemed as if we were divided in to our already existing friendships and didn't have a great ability to meet and bond with others. The environment didn't aid in unification or communication.

[jedi]

and I can't disagree with any of the points you've expanded on. it builds an accurate assessment of the situation. The question is, how do we solve the problem of ad-hoc socialization and entertainment without organizing?

Granted, with as mellow as the con was this year rules will be more relaxed next year. But that won't be the same as the environment that the AP allowed us to create. This could be another one of those "Evolve or die" situations, if we want to be melodramatic about it.

[noid]

I had a very similar feeling this year. With things so spread out, and a lot of parties occuring off-site, it was hard to find people. I saw quite a few folks, but in more than a few cases I got a minute or two to catch up with them and then never saw them again. Some sort of message board would probably do the trick, or maybe a centralized, internal, Jabber server. Would be nice to hop on a local network and IM folks to find their locations and dinner plans.

[mfreeck]

and I can't disagree with any of the points you've expanded on. it builds an accurate assessment of the situation. The question is, how do we solve the problem of ad-hoc socialization and entertainment without organizing?


How about an analog message board? Not everyone is able/wants to connect to the defcon network... sometimes analog is the best tool for the job. The problem is we're not allowed to have a big poster on the wall, but if there were some kinda sheet that was easy to browse, people could leave a msg. There will always be that person at the con that you don't have a number for, or like jackalope, you need to let people know you left your phone or somesuch. I guess if you wanted to get techy, you could do it with a database, depending on how crowded it got around the computer, since people would have to take turns at the keys.

[converge]

Some sort of message board would probably do the trick, or maybe a centralized, internal, Jabber server. Forums might not be the best for this, since not real time and could compromise login credentials for future use. Why not just an IRC channel of some kind? SMS really didn't do so well ..

The other difference in feel was the vast open pool/lobby area .. being crunched down into smaller hallways. Unless you roamed the main hallways at all hours of the day, you were likely to only find a specific groups with similar interests .. ie the same talks you went to, or the contest area, etc..

[Deviant Ollam]

How about an analog message board? Not everyone is able/wants to connect to the defcon network... sometimes analog is the best tool for the job. The problem is we're not allowed to have a big poster on the wall, but if there were some kinda sheet that was easy to browse, people could leave a msg.what about an old overhead projector or two? leave a bucket of erasable markers next to them and there you go... instant public noteboard.

[TheCotMan]

Forums might not be the best for this, since not real time and could compromise login credentials for future use.

Forums support https, allowing the observant to mitigate MiM SSL-based credential gathering attacks.

Forums could work well with https, but the biggest problem with forums is the lack of computers-- many people not competing in an event requiring a computer, don't bring computers.

Why not just an IRC channel of some kind? SMS really didn't do so well ..
SMS did better than other forums, but the very unicast nature of "sessions" between people made multi-party communications increase in complexity by O(n2) time as the number of people included increased.

As for paper-based BBS, this was possible. Butcher paper, and lay a table on its side, up against the wall. Attach the paper to the face of the table, and *bam* you have a BBS that include paper not attached to the walls. Need something taller? 2 tables side-by-side leaned vertically against the wall with paper attached to their face. Things not allowed to touch the wall at all? then a single table on its side with the legs extended for support can still work.

WWMD? or WWWCD?
(What would MacGeyver Do? or What would Weslesy Crusher Do?)

The other difference in feel was the vast open pool/lobby area .. being crunched down into smaller hallways. Unless you roamed the main hallways at all hours of the day, you were likely to only find a specific groups with similar interests .. ie the same talks you went to, or the contest area, etc..

An open public space is needed. The pool is central, but afflicted with "norms" and restricted by hours. Perhaps, once we get the whole hotel or large parts of it, we can take over the tennis courts? They don't have that dangerous water that seems to concern people so much that a lifeguard is required. (I can understand the light issue, but lights *can* be trucked in to shine onto the pool.)

[lil_freak]

WWMD? or WWWCD?
(What would MacGeyver Do? or What would Weslesy Crusher Do?)


Um, go out and get a 3M Post-It Easel and Easel Pads. They are a good size (2.5 feet by 2.08 feet) and work well for office meetings, so I think they would work great at Defcon.

Besides Cot, it would be less of a hassle to do this than move/arrange tables and what not.

[TheCotMan]

Um, go out and get a 3M Post-It Easel and Easel Pads. They are a good size (2.5 feet by 2.08 feet) and work well for office meetings, so I think they would work great at Defcon.

Besides Cot, it would be less of a hassle to do this than move/arrange tables and what not.

But those solutions cost money. :-) 1 or 2 tables dedicated to this purpose could be setup on Friday morning and torn down on Sunday.

Setup and break-down of tables is really easy and does not require a trip to the store.

Also, the Dart people had an Easel in the hallway and that thing was kicked over a few times. (Heavy objects tend to "stay-put" while light-weight object seem to walk-off on their own, or get smashed at Defcon.)

[jedi]

Low tech is one way to solve this. But I imagine it'll be difficult to manage finding the data you need when there's tons of messages on whatever easel/whiteboard/butcher paper we would choose.

What about trying a different solution. For example, we could set up a set of stations specifically connected to a closed network (or possibly isolated from the dc network but with outside connectivity)? We could have it occupy one of the sky boxes and setup a series of terminals with the local net for folks to use to leave messages for each other. We could localize communication to say a forum board that's only setup for the con. The we only have one room and a small set of machines to monitor.

[BlackOrchid]

Not meaning to insult/offend all of these ideas put forth, but so far we're still not coming up with anything nearly as personable as direct contact.

I'm still meditating on ths personal contact dilemma. But digitalizing is something we could have done at home and thus absolutely no need for defcon.

How can we shape the areas we have to better centralize and socialize real people? There needs to be some area that the majority pass through on their way to a conference area that isn't being totally controlled by guard dogs.

OR

I've entertained the idea opening the top pool area to being exclusive to defcon attendees ONLY for day and all night 'raves'. Why can't the hotel give us a little more liberty given our recent history of relative calm and control with the help of our goons. Make the upstairs pool exclusive to coolers, music, and our regular mayhem. (I'm sure there is insider information regarding the inability to do this but I'd like to at least hear a reason against it. Thanks)

Just throwing out some ideas for real human interaction as opposed to isolation of digitalization.

[Abby_Normal]

I've entertained the idea opening the top pool area to being exclusive to defcon attendees ONLY for day and all night 'raves'. Why can't the hotel give us a little more liberty given our recent history of relative calm and control with the help of our goons. Make the upstairs pool exclusive to coolers, music, and our regular mayhem. (I'm sure there is insider information regarding the inability to do this but I'd like to at least hear a reason against it. Thanks)

Just throwing out some ideas for real human interaction as opposed to isolation of digitalization.
The roof pool would be great, but at the moment it leaks. Do we bring in enough $ that it would be worth it to the Riv to repair and open it?

[Voltage Spike]

The roof pool would be great, but at the moment it leaks. Do we bring in enough $ that it would be worth it to the Riv to repair and open it?

Why must there be water in it? Safety? What if we devise a way to simply cover it over?

[TheCotMan]

Why must there be water in it? Safety? What if we devise a way to simply cover it over?

Because... the only thing more dangerous than a pool filled with water at night without any lifguards is a pool *without* any water or lifeguards at night!

Seriously, pre-con recon was completed and found the roof pool to not be an ideal location. It turns out that people reported management offices presently overlook the roof pool, and the roof is a location used by employees for smoking breaks.

I think we have at least one discussion thread about this in the pre-Defcon 14 threads.

Hope this helps

[jedi]

Why must there be water in it? Safety? What if we devise a way to simply cover it over?

Or fill it with something that doesn't leak? :evil:

Not meaning to insult/offend all of these ideas put forth, but so far we're still not coming up with anything nearly as personable as direct contact.

I'm still meditating on ths personal contact dilemma. But digitalizing is something we could have done at home and thus absolutely no need for defcon.

Agreed. My tech suggestion was an attempt to solve the problem by centralizing communication. And as has been pointed out previously, the riviera does not have the optimal layout for casual direct contact. Even if we get the roof pool (as has been suggested), I think it'll suffer the same issue the chill out room did: it's not in the path of casual migration.

No matter how I think about this, the courtyard pool seems the optimal location/solution.

[bascule]

I think an SMS repeater that people could add themselves to before con would be a great idea. It'd need some kind of moderation system (and a moderator) to decide what messages go out though, otherwise it'd surely get flooded by some jerkass spammer

[Abby_Normal]

Why must there be water in it? Safety? What if we devise a way to simply cover it over?

How about making it into a big ball pit!!! :-D

[TheCotMan]

begin of a thread where the roof pool was found to be less than ideal, even if the leaks were fixed

There is/was a non-/dev/null-ed thread too, but this /dev/null-ed thread provides sufficient summary, and is closed. ]:>

[spahkle]

How can we shape the areas we have to better centralize and socialize real people? There needs to be some area that the majority pass through on their way to a conference area.

This was my conclusion as well. Considering the turnout this year, it is forseeable that Defcon could leverage the Fire Marshall debacle friday along with the attendance load to show that the convention needs committed, dedicated space.

If the space used by the Dart convention was given to Defcon next year, what inventive design could be used to create better socializing experience? The Riviera has great convention opportunities, but is sorely lacking on opportunities to socialize.

The AP was good for socialization due to centralized areas that all traffic flowed through. At the Riviera there were sterile hallways connecting all the of the different rooms. At no time did you *have to* walk through specific areas (CTF, Chillout rooms/Dunktank area). An attendee could pick up their badge, visit the three speaker rooms and *never see the rest of the con events*. That idea is completely alien to everyone who has attended cons at the AP.

There were two primary outside accesses to the Convention:

1) external doors outside of Reg
2) external doors leading to hallway that lead to convention space.


If we had the rest of that convention space, the registration area could be setup at the external doors outside of all the convention space. The space in between reg and the speaker rooms (including hallway) could be lined with activity information, scheduling, etc. The idea of reserving the roof pool sounds great but due to its distance, unless Defcon had the entire tower connected to the pool, people probably wouldn't use it. The 'Chill-Out' room on the Penthouse floor in the Monaco tower was almost always empty. People couldn't find it (24th floor???) and it was quite a distance from the rest of the convention.

If I had to prioritize what I see as most beneficial to next years success at turning around the social vacuum from this year it would be:

1) Entire tower reserved for Defcon
2) More convention floorspace organized to direct traffic flow and encourage ad-hoc discussions
3) Pool area

[Grendel]

I mentioned this in another post, but one of the things that I would like to have seen is areas designated for specific topics, like OSes, or network, or tools, or whatever commonality this group has. Even if these areas were simply pre-designated tables in a common room, I'm sure there would be additional reasons for people to congregate in this area, and therefore more ad-hoc discussions and encounters.

This was my first time at defcon, and while I enjoyed it immensely, I only ended up meeting "single-serving friends" and would have probably had an even more enjoyable time had I known where to meet people with similar interests. I also agree that this should occur in or very near a well-trafficed area.

[bascule]

I mentioned this in another post, but one of the things that I would like to have seen is areas designated for specific topics, like OSes, or network, or tools, or whatever commonality this group has.

That's an awesome idea too! Can I be a leader of the DEF CON Transhumanists? Hmmm, DC>H

[DaKahuna]

This may be a little simplistic but what about using the Info Booth to leave messages and such for others. I think we can trust the Goons there will make sure that it does not get abused.

[octalpus]

A lot of us have been using dodgeball (http://dodgeball.com) to communicate plans and it worked very well during Defcon. We all did a "switch Las Vegas" when we arrived and checked in when we went to bars, parties, etc. We also used it to broadcast party info to friends.

Don't be anti-tech, evolve!!

Personally, I loved how low-key things were on-site. This was the first year I managed to venture out and see some of the local sites without feeling like I was missing something awesome if I dared to leave/eat/sleep.

[BlackOrchid]

I don't think anyone is being anti-tech. However, it does seem to be that we are PRO human contact. I could easily keep in touch with my already established relationships. It was the experience of meeting new people, whether likeminded or otherwise, that seemd to be lacking.

I've never gone to defcon to experience anything but defcon. If I want to check out vegas as a whole, I'll go at other times of the year. As it is, I want to experience all of YOU-PEOPLE-DATA-IDEAS-.. in or out of conferences.

AGAIN, I love technology but likewise, I love the interaction with real people who have their passions in various areas of technology. There's a balance. We cannot throw away one for the other.

[Abby_Normal]

A lot of us have been using dodgeball (http://dodgeball.com) to communicate plans and it worked very well during Defcon. We all did a "switch Las Vegas" when we arrived and checked in when we went to bars, parties, etc. We also used it to broadcast party info to friends.

Don't be anti-tech, evolve!!

Personally, I loved how low-key things were on-site. This was the first year I managed to venture out and see some of the local sites without feeling like I was missing something awesome if I dared to leave/eat/sleep.

The dodgeball thing looks kinda cool. Might be worth a try. Or maybe we could comeup with our own system.

My room was a hang out for a lot of people this year, So I didn't have a hard time finding people. But that was only good if we were in. Perhaps they could set up some kind of Con suite. They do it at other conventions. It's just a good sized suite that is open to everyone 24-7 and staffed by volenteers. They have munchies and a message board of some sort.

Works ok.

[Lockheed]

Some sort of message board would probably do the trick, or maybe a centralized, internal, Jabber server. Would be nice to hop on a local network and IM folks to find their locations and dinner plans.

That might be very possible. I'll take note for next year. As long as we have it all up and working on/by Wednesday, it should work out great. It's low-resource - and given that we have a spare box to run it on, shouldn't be any big deal to run. If it's well-used, we can continue it. If 3 people use it, then we know we can "divert our resources elsewhere" </corpspeak>

Lock

[Lockheed]

I've entertained the idea opening the top pool area to being exclusive to defcon attendees ONLY for day and all night 'raves'. Why can't the hotel give us a little more liberty given our recent history of relative calm and control with the help of our goons. Make the upstairs pool exclusive to coolers, music, and our regular mayhem. (I'm sure there is insider information regarding the inability to do this but I'd like to at least hear a reason against it. Thanks)

By "upstairs pool" do you mean the one that was drained, no water in it? If so, no can do. We asked about that. That pool is decommissioned (decades ago, if I understood correctly). It's not even accessible to the public any longer.

But yeah, we did talk to Convention Services about the possibility of DefCon-only event there... but no go. :(

Lock

[edit: forgive the late reply - must learn to read threads to the end before replying haha]

[hckhckhck]

Perhaps they could set up some kind of Con suite. They do it at other conventions. It's just a good sized suite that is open to everyone 24-7 and staffed by volenteers. They have munchies and a message board of some sort. Works ok.


I've staffed ConSuites at cons and they are great, but Defcon needs a big space, and the hotels
only want to give the regular guest rooms 24 hour access. The contest area was the hang out place
for me. Just needed to be open all night.

[Vyrus]

correct me if im wrong but WASN't the contest room open 24 / 7? i know i hung out there quite a bit :P

[latras]

correct me if im wrong but WASN't the contest room open 24 / 7? i know i hung out there quite a bit :P

No, at like 2am they would stop allowing people back there for some reason, though they wouldn't kick anyone out....At least that's what I experienced one night...

but the skybox was open 24x7

[DaKahuna]

If you left the area you were not permitted back. Sunday morning I was stopped from going there at 0945.

[Dark Tangent]

A couple of notes..

Sofar it loks like we will get at least one tower for con attendees. This might help people group together.

Many of the problems about when people could go place will change a bit. Now that the hotel knows us, things will be easier next year.

The big question, though, is the original one: How to increase interaction and hangout?

I'm thinking of moving B&W downstairs. I love the space at the Top of the Riv, but people had trouble finding it, just like they couldn't find the outdoors area even through it was in the program. It might make more sense to just centralize it.

We get more meeting space next year, and I'll post about it once I have the exact rooms. But the point is we will have more areas to do something with. It might make sense to keep us all together and not send people up to the Top of the Riv.

Singage will definately be better next year!

My 2cents as I finish some testing on the new pics server with Cot.

DT

[Vyrus]

lol well i think the biggest thing we DIDNT do with the new space is "define where the new pool 2 is". lol once thats done i think were in the white house :P

[Deviant Ollam]

Sofar it loks like we will get at least one tower for con attendees. This might help people group together.rockin! will it be the monaco tower? i realize that this may become more of a moot point should the "top of riv" space fall into disuse, but it seemed like the tower with the best proximity to the convention space, skyboxes, etc. (if you walked a short stroll outside for a second you'd skip tons of crowds and long lines)

The big question, though, is the original one: How to increase interaction and hangout?many people would say 24 hour pool access (and i agree that this is something i miss greatly from the AP) but i think it's more nuanced than that. i think a "chillout" type of hangout space is best when it can accomodate many people and many activities without anyone getting yelled at.

a good chill space would (idealy, in my opinion) be...

a spot where anyone is free to show up at any hour of the day
a place with an assload of seating, preferably a mix of straight back chairs and lounge chairs (although inflatable couches might be a nice, cheap touch)
some scattered tables would be good
a place where people could be free to hook up kickin' sound equipment and spin or listen to prepackaged tunes (right now pretty much all the convention floor space had, like last year, it's own sights and sounds. e.g. - the kenshoto guys were running great videos on the wall of the CTF room. that was entertaining and fun and i wouldn't have it any other way, but clearly no one would setup tables and play music in there since they'd be treading on others' entertainment already in progress)
a place with (maybe, somehow, some way) some hot tubs for relaxation or the occasional impromptu orgy (http://deviating.net/defcon_11/pdrm1886.jpg)
the case could be made that this would be better suited to either indoors or outdoors... but perhaps some way of alloting some indoor space that's along a wall with doors leading out and also having some outdoor zone as well would be pretty kickass. like a party at someone's huge, swanky apartment where there's also a terrace... a scene which clearly feels like it's part of the party but is removed slightly from it providing variation in music, atmosphere, etc.


I'm thinking of moving B&W downstairs. I love the space at the Top of the Riv, but people had trouble finding it, just like they couldn't find the outdoors area even through it was in the program. It might make more sense to just centralize it.while that would definitely be a great way to clue people in to the location, i think that many of the "lost atendee" issues will resolve themselves if we continue to be at the Riv. this will be especially magnified if we're all in the monaco tower where you just have to take your elevator up instead of down. it's a bit like HOPE... with the talks, etc. on one floor and the chillout area on the other end of the spectrum and attendee rooms in between. heh, like HOPE with faster elevators, a better attitude and more chill vibe, and more alcohol and nakedness.

i really thought the top of the riv space was pretty amazing. and it's so well suited for performances. but, really, i'd be happy anywhere we have it as long as we get the minibosses to come back and our DJ sets run their full course. (anyone spoken to regenerator since the con? hope they made out alright and will still come back for us next year)

Singage will definately be better next year!sweet. addressing this will, i feel, make a lot of the other matters just sort of fall into place.

thanks for all that you and the others do to keep defcon evolving and keep it both fun and informative for everyone. :biggrin:

[theprez98]

Reminds self not to click on "impromptu orgy" links when using government internet. ;)

[Abby_Normal]

rockin! will it be the monaco tower? i realize that this may become more of a moot point should the "top of riv" space fall into disuse, but it seemed like the tower with the best proximity to the convention space, skyboxes, etc. (if you walked a short stroll outside for a second you'd skip tons of crowds and long lines)

I doubt it will fall in to misuse, as it stands we have already booked the penthouse again for next year, if the Riv is still willing to honor the reservation.

[DJ Jackalope]

Turn the Top of the Riv into a 24/7 chill out area?

[latras]

I plan on being more social next year and introducing myselt to people on the forums ...well..if I can find them :)

[Chris]

I plan on being more social next year and introducing myselt to people on the forums ...well..if I can find them :)


You can always meet people from the forums at the forum meet. The time/place is noted in the program and is usually posted on here a couple of weeks before DEF CON.

[Vyrus]

and THIS time perhaps it wont get messed up by being 2 hours late :P

[Deviant Ollam]

and THIS time perhaps it wont get messed up by being 2 hours late :Pi actually was surprised about people's confusion with the first day's schedule... when fire marshal issues made the talks open 2 hours late, i simply assumed that it would push everything back by two hours in order to keep pace with the schedule (since most people had planned their day around attending various talks and events, etc) but i was hearing rumors of certain contests, etc. that were going off at their original time as opposed to following the delay. when did the forum meet actually happen this year? at the pre-defcon scheduled time (was that 21:00?) or at the modified, pushed time of 23:00? (which could be a really late time to get things kicked off, i suppose)

[Thorn]

The meet happened about 2100, although there were only about 6-8 of us there at that time. Most people wandered in after 2200.

[latras]

The meet happened about 2100, although there were only about 6-8 of us there at that time. Most people wandered in after 2200.

That's cuz there were still talks going on at that time, It seems all they moved was the talks back 2 hours, everything else was on time...

[Deviant Ollam]

That's cuz there were still talks going on at that time, It seems all they moved was the talks back 2 hours, everything else was on time...i know that my contest, the beer cooling event, went off in accordance with the new schedule which pushed everything by two hours. i had speakers, etc. competing in the event and didn't want them stuck on stage when they were supposed to be tempting my tastebuds with chilled suds.

[BlackOrchid]

Can we negotiate a portion of area around the pool where only defcon attendees are allowed. (No badge, no admit?) I'm not expecting the usual prowess of vendors, insanity, nudity.. etc. but why not have a social area similar to what is familiar-if for nothing more than socializiation and information exchange (parties, etc). Quarentine the defconees to that exclusive area? heh...

I hate the idea of being confined to indoors (feels like a prison). I realize I'm one of the few sun worshippers at defcon, but I like the freedom of having areas in and out of doors which are exclusive to defcon attendees only.

just my $2 dollars worth (cuz I'm not cheap) *wink*

[signcarver]

Can we negotiate a portion of area around the pool where only defcon attendees are allowed. (No badge, no admit?) I'm not expecting the usual prowess of vendors, insanity, nudity.. etc. but why not have a social area similar to what is familiar-if for nothing more than socializiation and information exchange (parties, etc). Quarentine the defconees to that exclusive area? heh...


I wouldn't want to wear my badge in the pool area, as I wouldn't want to jump in with it and I would fear someone would take it if I left it beside the pool while swimming because I still needed it in the pool area. If the intention is not to swim and just hang out, I think the outdoor space by the dunk tank could have been configured better so people would want to be outside (inflatable pool, bar, cool zone... make it look/feel like the islands).

[icetre]

Sorry to bring up a post that so old. I'd be willing to forgo a party next year for a 10k donation to getting that pool fixed, for our exclusive use. My only request would be my crew gets to organize it's use first poolcon.

Oh sweet jesus. Penthouse party by the POOL, now that would rock.


The roof pool would be great, but at the moment it leaks. Do we bring in enough $ that it would be worth it to the Riv to repair and open it?

[ßobÇat]

Icetre, as long as you're ponying up that much cash, why not just buy a bunch of these 24' inflatable pools http://www.qualityinflatables.com/57985.html and put them in the outdoor chill out area? Maybe one in your penthouse?

You can donate them to a worthy charity after the con...

[signcarver]

I agree with ßobÇat that a pool would be great in the outdoor chill area, though I don't know what the safety people who delayed the start by a few hours would have to say about a pool (or the hotel for that matter)... would it have to be collapsed each night? Would a life guard need to be on duty? Would alcohol need to be limited in the area? How late could we use it? etc.

I think I mentioned the idea of an inflatable pool before {on searching it was just a few posts up in this thread }

Even if offered by a third party to pay for it, I don't know if they would do it (fix the pool) as I have heard rumors that the Riv is one of the next to be torn down (it will probably be a few years as I think the stardust across the street is being torn down after this year).

I do think a pool party is almost a must in the summer heat perhaps one night the regular pool could be reserved for us.

[TheCotMan]

What about addressing the other two issues raised above and in another thread that the roof contains management offices with windows looking over the roof, and is a location that employees visit for smoke-breaks.

[Adding links:]
Quote 1: Tacitus (About the roof pool as a party space)
Yeah, and did you take note of the bank of executive offices across the deck from that pool? Im sure they won't mind....

Quote 2: Siviak (About the roof pool as a party location)
Sorry, we took a look at that and it's not a good place for a party. Security everywhere, staff there all the time (break spot), plenty of rooms overlooking it, and the employee break room is right next to it.