pics.defcon.org todo list, bugs, tools, decisions, and more

[TheCotMan]

Image replacement and issues with thumbprint update, and synchronization.

Image re-upload after layer-7 filter trigger denies completion.

User moving images from albums, to albums, copied/linked to categories.

Make the rules specific, terse, objective-based.

Review the issues of user deletion of images by poster with mods.

Review Quotas, and some sort of classification for Regular Users that don't need moderation. (People trusted to not be asshats.) (I need to build a system to allow mods to manually promote users they know and trust, too.)

Is Nudity something we should really address at all? If so how? Limit nudity to the member "albums" and disallow from the other categories? A usergroup people may choose to join to see a single catgeory where nudes are permitted? (Censorship sucks. I don't want to delete images just because peoples slots, ports, dongles, or accessories are on display. However, I will censor spam and illegal images.)

Add markup code for posting to allow for links to images, and insertion of images in posts.

Publish anti-leeching/abuse policies, and enforcement techniques.

What else?

[TheCotMan]

email from pics does not work (maybe config issue, maybe policy thing.)
Looks like mail is something we'll have to disable from pics.defcon.org. The cost of enabling might be too high.

"upload pictures from "this web page" does not work. (policy issue. not a bug)

Regular user submissions were not being marked for moderation/approval (fixed.)

How can users mass-upload images if web-based upload with URL (snarf all images from this url) does not work?

What else?

[Deviant Ollam]

it seems like the order in which a gallery is displayed has to do with filename (which appears to not be the real file name but rather the "title" specified during initial upload) and that can make many photos appear out of sequence. i uploaded my shots from DC9 last night and they are all outta whack.

if i can rename the titles i'll just add numerical values in front if that will fix it. also, the "title" field appears to have a size limit (a few of my lengthier ones were cut off) but the form in which you type doesn't seem to have a value limiting the size in the HTML code... or if it does the value doesn't match the system's truncate point.

[TheCotMan]

it seems like the order in which a gallery is displayed has to do with filename (which appears to not be the real file name but rather the "title" specified during initial upload) and that can make many photos appear out of sequence. i uploaded my shots from DC9 last night and they are all outta whack.

I think "ordering by date of upload" is a possible setting. I'll check into altering the method for ordering images.

if i can rename the titles i'll just add numerical values in front if that will fix it. also, the "title" field appears to have a size limit (a few of my lengthier ones were cut off) but the form in which you type doesn't seem to have a value limiting the size in the HTML code... or if it does the value doesn't match the system's truncate point.
Sounds like a bug.

Added both to the todo list.

[TheCotMan]

Reported through another channel:
* when you 'quick vote' it generates a blank comment.

* it seems requiring moderation for images does the same for comments. Hmm.

* Made a new usergroup that allows members of it to post pictures without requiring the posts/pictures to be approved. The problem is, how is membership determined? Postcount is a lame metric, and age of account is lame too. Making the group a user-jonable group means it can be scripted by spammers. *sigh*

Suggestions welcome on how to add this group to people's accounts so they can post images and comments on pics.defcon.org without approval, are welcome.

We want to avoid assigning any kind of value to postcount, and any date-related limits won't really stop asshats or spammers that can just sit on accounts until they are "ripe."

[TheCotMan]

3 Items we are looking at right now:

1) Mail support from pics.defccon.org for notices, and whatnot.
2) Bullk-upload-of-jpg-or-png=via-URL support
3) How do we determine what users should not require approval when posting images? (And can we make comments not require approval while images still do for those that still require approval?)

I'd like suggestions for "3"

Postcount is not much of a metric of people who can be trusted to not be abusive, and neither is "join date."

[TheCotMan]

3) How do we determine what users should not require approval when posting images? (And can we make comments not require approval while images still do for those that still require approval?)

I'd like suggestions for "3"

Postcount is not much of a metric of people who can be trusted to not be abusive, and neither is "join date."

Social Theory, Degrees of separation, and ADT to build trees with nodes (users):

What if, mods were undeletable zero-level nodes who could grant a new usergroup status (post pictures without approval) to any regular users ((nodes at the next layer.)

This status would allow any members to also extend the same status to other members.

There would be a cost, however. If anyone sponsors someone who doess something asshat-like, not only does the person that did the asshat thing lose their status, but so does the person that sponsored them, along with all other people the sponsor, sponsored, on down the chain, are deleted downward.

This might encourage people to only sponsor people they know will not be spammers, or break laws, or be asshats.

If I build the data structure and system well enough, with the proper interface, the act of sponsoring could be a public page, and the act of up-one-node from submitted user, and down to all nodes to delete usergroup membership could be automated with just the username of the offender.

It would take some time to build it, but it borrows from the idea of degrees of separation, so that all people that can be trusted to not do stupid things get access, and those not yet known well enough just wait to get recognized by someone they know that has membership.

Heh. Kind of like vampires. Kill the "head" vampire, and all the vamps lower than them are "cured"

Thoughts? Again, I can make new code, but I don't want to alter existing code.

[Voltage Spike]

Social Theory, Degrees of separation, and ADT to build trees with nodes (users):

It sounds really cool, but I just don't see it as a workable solution. There is a lot of overhead there, and it will ultimately, I believe, drive off users (especially the non-regulars).

First, is there really a problem? Are there automated spammers taking advantage of picture galleries? If so, wouldn't the existing delay after registering drive most of them away?

The picture gallery is a different medium, and one that I might argue is more restrictive than the hypertext forums. Perhaps you shouldn't preemptively build in hurdles at the cost of the community ... see where things go on their own. Soliciting ideas isn't bad, but it may be a bit early to implement them.

[TheCotMan]

It sounds really cool, but I just don't see it as a workable solution. There is a lot of overhead there, and it will ultimately, I believe, drive off users (especially the non-regulars).
Posting still works for unknowns, it just requires approval of images.

First, is there really a problem? Are there automated spammers taking advantage of picture galleries? If so, wouldn't the existing delay after registering drive most of them away?
It is. Many web-hosting sites (geocites for example) are being users to host tracking images, and images for image based campaigns.
Photo galleries are used to store stock-scam images, and those domains that have allowed too many spam images to be stored on them have become blacklisted by some anti-spam tools as forbidden by local policy filters.
The last spammers that we had here on the forums actually created accounts, and waited 1 month before spamming-- this technique will only become more common as other site adopt what we have done, the spammers learn, and the bar is raised.
Ultimately, the rules we have in place will fail, and we'll have to look to some other method to deal with spammers.

The picture gallery is a different medium, and one that I might argue is more restrictive than the hypertext forums. Perhaps you shouldn't preemptively build in hurdles at the cost of the community ... see where things go on their own. Soliciting ideas isn't bad, but it may be a bit early to implement them.
This is where there is difficulty. If it is made into a free-for-all with posting of new images, when will the mods rise up and overthrow their new dictator? ]:>

Sure, I joke, but it takes quote a bit of time to keep up on things here, and adding more work risks making the forums/pics less fun for mods too.

I talked with the other mods, and DT about adding people who are mods only in pics.defcon.org, but no final decision has been made. If we went with this, they would need to be people who are on the forums quote a bit, able to cover most of the hours, band be trusted to not be abusive with the "deletes" and non-approval.

The idea of temporary pic-mods has also come up, as has temporary open-posting periods (during a time near Defcon.)

I'm asking for ideas, and your suggestion of a more open pics system is an option.

Any more suggestions?

[Voltage Spike]

Any more suggestions?

How about a flagging approach similar(?) to craigslist? In other words, take advantage of non-moderators by allowing them to flag images they think might cause problems. Gather enough flags and the image is automatically removed until approval by a moderator. As a manner of possibly preventing abuse, "lock" images from being flagged if they have reached a certain age.

[TheCotMan]

How about a flagging approach similar(?) to craigslist? In other words, take advantage of non-moderators by allowing them to flag images they think might cause problems. Gather enough flags and the image is automatically removed until approval by a moderator. As a manner of possibly preventing abuse, "lock" images from being flagged if they have reached a certain age.

There is a "report this message" feature that might be of some use, but that will require mail to work from pics.defcon.org (which it doesn't yet.)

If such a change to their could could be integrated back into their product developmnet cycles, I would be for it, but not if I have to continue to reapply patches after each upgrade.

(I can write new code and independent apps, but modifying existing code means more risks at botching something during upgrades.)

An independent "cron" script with DB access might be able to check for reports on messages, but I am not sure if the system presently counts numbers of reports, or if it is quantum in nature.

Short answer: Thanks! I'll look into it. :-)

[shrdlu]

I note that after the first small rush to post images, that it seems to have already dropped off. I have the feeling that it may be easier than you think to police, as long as this level is maintained. Is it possible that it would be more popular (read: more images submitted) if it wasn't just a link off the forums? Even on the community page off the site, there's no mention of it.

http://www.defcon.org/html/links/dc-community.html

Once I get the rest of my network back up, I'm going to look for more interesting pix from previous cons. I have plenty, they're just not currently available to post.

[TheCotMan]

I note that after the first small rush to post images, that it seems to have already dropped off. I have the feeling that it may be easier than you think to police, as long as this level is maintained. Is it possible that it would be more popular (read: more images submitted) if it wasn't just a link off the forums? Even on the community page off the site, there's no mention of it.

http://www.defcon.org/html/links/dc-community.html

Once I get the rest of my network back up, I'm going to look for more interesting pix from previous cons. I have plenty, they're just not currently available to post.

I think that there are plans to have it linked from more places and announced elsewhere once some of the issues are worked out. (We have 3-5 primary issues and many small issues.)

[Dark Tangent]

So we haven't posted about pics.defcon.org on the RSS feed or the web site yet.

This is because we want to finish up some debugging and feature testing. I think we are ready to make the RSS entry announcement this week. Then Cotman and I will finish some tweaks this weekend. I think next month we will go with the web page announcement, and if that goes well we will move on to spreadwing the work elsewhere.

As pics grows, I think we might want to think through the picture categories.. do we want one for contests, just of speakers, etc? The more we think it through now the better off we will be once it really starts growin once the batch import tool is enabled.

W00t!

[shrdlu]

As pics grows, I think we might want to think through the picture categories.. do we want one for contests, just of speakers, etc? The more we think it through now the better off we will be once it really starts growin once the batch import tool is enabled.

At the risk of making it too complex, I would like to see multiple categories of things. Sure, it's nice to see that there are plenty of pix for Defcon 9, but it would be even nicer to see them also grouped into DC9/Hacker Jeopardy and DC9/TCP-IP Drinking Game (I really miss that one).

Not everyone is in the same circle of friends (or even has a circle), and some pictures might only be meaningful to a few. A contest area for each defcon, set up rather like the contest area in the forums was this year, would be great.

On a side note, why is it that whenever I look at "My Photos", the "Random Images" picture is always the same one (and one I don't much care for, at that)? I note that it changes otherwise, albeit still not randomly.

[TheCotMan]

On a side note, why is it that whenever I look at "My Photos", the "Random Images" picture is always the same one (and one I don't much care for, at that)? I note that it changes otherwise, albeit still not randomly.

I think the "Random image" does not change each load. I think it is set to change once every (period of time) or something-- though I can verify this.

[TheCotMan]

The mods had a vote on changing pics.defcon.org:
1) Permissions to post images without approval will "kind of" follow the same waiting periods of the forums:
a) Most of the time, in order to post an image without approval, you'lll need to be registered with the forums for at least 2 weeks. (Permission to post pictures without approval follows permission to post new threads.)
b) a window may exist before and after con for accounts that are only 24 hours old (able to post replies to existing threads) to be able to post images without approval.
2) How we will deal with this. (More on this later.)

Let's see how this works. :-)

"1 b" is live right now. Accounts just over 24 hours old should be able to post images without approval.