DC-STUFF mailing list is moving

[Dark Tangent]

Evil Pete is stepping back from hosting the DC-STUFF mailing list, and DEFCON will be taking it over. When I say DEFCON, I mean me, until I can get a list admin or two lined up.

This creates an opportunity for us. Use this thread to talk/rant about what you like and don't like atoubt DC-STUFF. Now is the time to change it, keep it the same, or spawn off a different mailing list.

What say you?

[noid]

The DC-Stuff mailing list licks donkey nuts. Actual donkey nuts. For the last few years its basically been the same 8 people arguing with each other and flaming anyone else who gets involved. The list needed to die years ago.

I would have to say at the time, the DC-Stuff mailing list made sense, but is it really relevant anymore? With the forums, we seem to have a larger community base, conversations are divied up by topic, folks are more social, and the insane asshattery that rules the dc-stuff list is dealt with swiftly and harshly here on the forums.

I would be inclined to create an announcement only mailing list in its place. It would be nice to have a list that lets me know things like when the CFP opens/closes, last minute venue changes, sudden guest speakers, etc.

[Dark Tangent]

So, what about a moderated list? Or a list that gets auto traffic from certain forums areas, the defcon RSS feed, etc?


I would be inclined to create an announcement only mailing list in its place. It would be nice to have a list that lets me know things like when the CFP opens/closes, last minute venue changes, sudden guest speakers, etc.

[noid]

A forum to mailing list thingamajig would be kinda neat. Especially for those at work who get their web usage monitored.

[TheCotMan]

I lurked on the dc-stuff list for a while; it was like an unmanaged /dev/null with occasional topics about Defcon. I seem to recall a lot of political topics, and allegations questioning sanity or paranoia through suggested "black helocopter" halucinations.

Is rapeseed oil bad for you? Who cares. Based on what I saw, it would have been easy for anyone to troll that list.

I am told that it was an entertaining list when there were many more intelligent people on the list, and discussions of things like guns, ammo, and topics related to Defcon, but from what I saw a few years back, many of the core people that contributed to making it worth reading, left (for one reason or another.)

I like the idea of an announce list.

Moderated list? Scary. With the levels of spam at what they are today, and the pains of trying to migrate a list, the moderators of such a list would likely be busy. I suspect there would be claims of censorship, unfair bias, and favoritism from most of the few remaining active members of the present list, if they were to migrate over to the new one. (Hey! Give this job to Grifter! ]:> )

Predictions:
"Waa-waa. You let 'x' post his rant about 'blah'blah' but you didn't let my flame-fest go through. You suck! You broke my flamethrower."

"What do you mean my message was eaten by your spam filter? I think you did it on purpose because you want to silence me and my views."

I would subscribe to an announcement list.

[converge]

Yeah .. I remember subscribing to dc-stuff a few.. er.. 6?7? years back.. that didn't keep my attention very long.

I like noids thought .. a list-based broadcast of forums posts would actually be more handy for me than the RSS feed. I often find myself using the 'email subscribed' option .. basically reading people's replies to posts I subscribe to without having to hit a web browser. It also allows for client-side filters..

Maybe a couple lists based on function? dc-announce, dc-forums, ... dc-groups, dc-lead ... dc-pr0nomatic

[DaKahuna]

I subscribe to the dc-stff list and find about one out of every 100 messages and maybe one out of every 20 topics of interest.

I would definately drop it for a moderated list.

[converge]

I'm not saying that dc-stuff needs to die. If the people enjoy doing what they do, what the hell.. ya know? I am saying that if lists are being considered as effective transport 1) do not incorporate dc-stuff .. ever. 2) it could be useful. I think dragging that list into moderation or any form of value will just create frustration on many fronts, as TheCotMan deftly pointed out.

[shrdlu]

I'm not saying that dc-stuff needs to die. If the people enjoy doing what they do, what the hell.. ya know? I am saying that if lists are being considered as effective transport 1) do not incorporate dc-stuff .. ever. 2) it could be useful. I think dragging that list into moderation or any form of value will just create frustration on many fronts, as TheCotMan deftly pointed out.

If Dark Tangent wants to rescue the list, for whatever purpose, sure, why not? I find it a desparate pool of misogynism, where the same few people scream the same few insults over and over. The unfortunate thing about it was that some of the people that left, did it the hard way. Sinster was the final death, as far as I was concerned.

There's some merit in saving it, but I'd suggest that attempting to censor it would be like cleaning up a cess pool with a sieve. It's possible, certainly, but it would seem that the essential pieces would be removed along with the garbage.

An announcement only list would be lovely. It doesn't have to be dc-stuff. I started keeping tabs on the forums this year because I could see that attempting to do coffee wars without doing so would be much more difficult. Forums are one of my least favorite forms of communication, but they still have their place.

I do admit that I see the Defcon CFP, and other announcements, on multiple venues (ISN, Full Disclosure, Bugtraq...). Just the same, it'd be nice to not have it lost in the noise. A mailing list about defcon; what a thought!

Oh, I should add that I've been subscribed to the dc-stuff mailing list, off and on (more off than on of late) since the mid-nineties. Now that's scary.

[shrdlu]

Evil Pete is stepping back from hosting the DC-STUFF mailing list, and DEFCON will be taking it over. When I say DEFCON, I mean me, until I can get a list admin or two lined up.

As I've said elsewhere, if you really mean to rescue it, go for it. I wonder if this means you will be moving the archived posts as well? I know that since the switch to mailman, the list has been archived.

This creates an opportunity for us. Use this thread to talk/rant about what you like and don't like atoubt DC-STUFF. Now is the time to change it, keep it the same, or spawn off a different mailing list.

What say you?

I do agree with others that the current worth of dc-stuff isn't much. On the other hand, through no reason I can explain, I miss it, and quietly resubscribe now and then, for a time. Its heyday is long over. Many of the best are dead, or have simply moved on. Still, I'm sentimental.

Don't spend too much time or energy on it. If it's just a machine, and perhaps someone to watch that the list is up and running, fine.

[converge]

I think shrdlu just volunteered :p

[shrdlu]

I think shrdlu just volunteered :p

I would be the veritable lightning rod of controversy.

Why don't you ask the current list? I note that *none* of the people on that list who might care, are in these forums (and reading on some regular basis).

Hmmm, I think I'll go over there and point out this thread.

Heads up.

[zorch]

This creates an opportunity for us. Use this thread to talk/rant about what you like and don't like atoubt DC-STUFF. Now is the time to change it, keep it the same, or spawn off a different mailing list.

What say you?

I vote no change.

It's not what it was, but it is what it has evolved to be.

[shrdlu]

I vote no change.

It's not what it was, but it is what it has evolved to be.

I deliberately resubscribed to the (dc-stuff) list to let people know that this was happening. I think it's a bit unfair to not give them a chance to choose, since they're the ones currently affected. I believe that the people subscribed there, and here, is not a large overlap (although there is some).

The number of people who've managed that list over the years would surprise you. It isn't self sustaining. I know at least two who've burned out and moved on, and who can blame them.

[zorch]

I deliberately resubscribed to the (dc-stuff) list to let people know that this was happening. I think it's a bit unfair to not give them a chance to choose, since they're the ones currently affected. I believe that the people subscribed there, and here, is not a large overlap (although there is some).

Good call. I (we?) appreciate it. I hadn't noticed this thread.

The number of people who've managed that list over the years would surprise you. It isn't self sustaining. I know at least two who've burned out and moved on, and who can blame them.

It's probably quite tedious. I think the current group has been at it for about 3-4 years. They're pretty good at it, but may need a break.

I have the resources to host the list and/or archives, if the need arises. I'd also be willing to give one of the admins a break, at their discretion. Relevant individuals can drop me a mail.

[shrdlu]

Good call. I (we?) appreciate it. I hadn't noticed this thread.

Nor had most anyone on the list, I'm sure. However...

It's probably quite tedious. I think the current group has been at it for about 3-4 years. They're pretty good at it, but may need a break.

I'm not sure who still *is* managing it. I suspect that those you think are, have left (Cat, for instance, has been gone for some time).

I have the resources to host the list and/or archives, if the need arises. I'd also be willing to give one of the admins a break, at their discretion. Relevant individuals can drop me a mail.

This isn't the place to make that offer. DT has already offered, here. I note that Digital Ebola and Foofus have both offered over on the actual list (masochists that they are). I also note that most posts don't even seem to be making it to the list. I'm subscribed from multiple accounts, and not all of them receive any of the posts; some only receive a subset. Odd.

I would think it was best if someone over there be chosen to represent the current denizens of the list, and then post over here to keep a presence of those actually affected.

[converge]

I deliberately resubscribed to the (dc-stuff) list to let people know that this was happening. w00t~ ... there's definately a decent slosh of folks that don't care for or participate in the list, excellent for DT to hear from those that this *directly* effects.

I think its a pretty reasonable sentiment not to attempt changing/reforming a list; just because I'm not particularly entertained or enriched by it, doesn't mean it has to be formatted into something I personally like, I just choose other mediums. Hence the recommendation for starting additional list(s) to act as a vehicle with specific purpose, letting the folks that have molded dc-stuff into its current incarnation to continuing enjoying it.

[zorch]

This isn't the place to make that offer.
Agreed, but then this probably also isn't the place to be having this discussion.

DT has already offered, here. I note that Digital Ebola and Foofus have both offered over on the actual list (masochists that they are). I also note that most posts don't even seem to be making it to the list. I'm subscribed from multiple accounts, and not all of them receive any of the posts; some only receive a subset. Odd.
Which probably explains why I received Foofus' offer after I posted, and still haven't seen Digital Ebola's

"If it ain't broke, don't fix it." But something is apparently broke.


I would think it was best if someone over there be chosen to represent the current denizens of the list, and then post over here to keep a presence of those actually affected.

It'd probably be better to have the discussion on the actual list, but apparently that's not possible with the current state of the list.

The concensus seems to be "leave it as it is".

I'd recommend addressing the technical issue first, to stabilize list function. Then take the issue of any further changes to the list.

[priest]

Right, as one of the "8 people" who actually post to the dc-stuff list I think I should weigh in on the subject.

Killing the list is a bad idea. There are quite a few more people on the list than just Woodchuck, SD, DA, Izzac, Reese, Foofus, Lizz, and myself who actually post on the list and who enjoy reading it. Granted it is not focused on DC and ranges from politics to cooking but it is quite diverting and quite entertaining.

There are of course a vocal minority who, like most vocal minorities, whine/bitch/moan/cry over what a mean and evil place it is and how horrible the people are there. These few are usually children of all ages who snuck out from under mommy's skirt, got into daddy's closet, put on daddy's 'big man' pants, and are trying to play with the 'big kids' or a bunch of politically correct limp wristed panty wearing wankers who demand that people subscribe to their world view then run away crying when people don't while calling them Fascists-Racists-Homophobes and compare them to HItler.

As an example think of what just happened at Columbia to the leader of the Minutemen where students who are supposedly for free speech and equality for all bum rushed the stage, put an attempted beat down on the speaker, and chanted that no such subject would ever be uttered at Columbia because it was a view counter to theirs.

In my mind killing the list because of this vocal minority is in essence surrendering to the tyranny of the minority. Frankly if you don't like it unsubscribe, don't post, don't read it. Otherwise jump in, the water is fine. Hold you own and don't be an idiot and you will be fine. Otherwise go back to the kiddie table and clutch your bubu or better yet please GO OUTSIDE AND PLAY HIDE AND GO FUCK YOURSELF!

If the list needs moving I will step up and host it if no one else will. Shutting down, moderating it, or changing its focus, to me, brings to mind the way so many of the silent majority simply roll over and give in to the wing nut minority because they don't want to be called dirty names.

Priest

[priest]

Nor had most anyone on the list, I'm sure. However...



I'm not sure who still *is* managing it. I suspect that those you think are, have left (Cat, for instance, has been gone for some time).





I am. Bobcat is. It seems to be motoring along fine frankly. If there is a problem let me know.

Priest

[Foofus]

Good day, gentle hackers.

It seems as though dis.org wishes to relinquish the burden of
hosting dc-stuff. That's a 100% reasonable wish, and we should
say a nice thanks to Evil Pete (et al.) for so many years of
list enjoyment. If I've misunderstood, and dc-stuff can continue
to live on at dis.org, then we can dispense with the remainder of
this post, and go on about our daily business.

It also seems as though Dark Tangent (or some delegate thereof)
may establish an official DefCon version of dc-stuff, so that
e-mail discussions of DefCon-related matters may live on. That,
too, is a 100% reasonable move, and I am sure that many of us
will subscribe.

As many of us know, however, only a small percentage of the
traffic on dc-stuff's existing incarnation is defcon-related,
and indeed it is this anarchic/hostile/random character that
gives the list its special charm. It's not reasonable to expect
DefCon (or anyone without a stake in the current list culture)
to dedicate resources to anything so bonkers.

Dc-stuff has forked before, it it wound up not being much fun.
Dc-stuff has experienced unexpected changes in the past, and
these also wound up being points of contention and flamage.
Nevertheless, it's my hope that the soul of dc-stuff transcends
the domain where it is hosted, and that we can find a generally
agreeable way of migrating elsewhere.

I propose to do the following:

1. I will register a domain to be dedicated to the list;
this way, if it ever needs to move again, we can just
change DNS, without everyone having to re-write their
procmail rules or whatnot.

2. I will point the MX record for the list domain to a
server with mailman on it (present candidates are a
box at my place, or a box of Digital Ebola's; I think
this is an insignificant detail, though, unless others
voice a strong preference).

At this point, the facilities for list operations will in place,
but there are some important other issues to tackle:

a. How will people get subscribed? One plan would be
simply to migrate the existing subscriber list over.
In fact, absent some compelling argument to the contrary,
this is what I propose (requests not to be migrated over
will be honored, of course).

b. How will the list be administered? One plan would be
to keep the current administrators. Again, absent some
compelling argument to the contrary, this is what I
propose. I am not sure I know who is an admin, at this
point, however (anyone other than Priest and BobCat?);
I will also honor requests not to be an admin any more.
If more admins are needed, I assume that Digi and I are
de facto volunteers, since nobody had better pony up a
server without planning to work on it some.

c. What of the archives-- should they be migrated over?
Personally, I don't have a strong opinion on this matter.
My default suggestion is to migrate them, since they
are there, but I haven't really spent a whole lot of
time thinking about the topic. If there's some good
reason not to do this, I'm all ears.

It has been suggested that if action is to be taken, it should
be done soon. Does anyone want to voice a reason why it should
not be done? Or to express an opinion on any of the points
raised here?

I am cross-posting this message to both dc-stuff and the forums,
and I'll check for answers in each location.

--Foofus.

[TheCotMan]

This isn't the place to make that offer. DT has already offered, here. I note that Digital Ebola and Foofus have both offered over on the actual list (masochists that they are).

This is a place to offer these, as is the dc-stuff list. If DT isn't presently subscribed to the dc-stuff list or reading its content, it would make sense to discuss this here too.

Is hosting the list by another list member an option? I don't know. Ask DT or Pete. Is keeping the present admin structure for the list in a new location an option? Based on the top post from DT, it looks like he will be looking for people to manage the list, which isn't necessarily moderation.

Killing the list is a bad idea.
Moderation of it would be even worse.

Granted it is not focused on DC and ranges from politics to cooking but it is quite diverting and quite entertaining.
Transitioning the list, and adding more lists (like an announce-only list, and some of the others suggested above like a DCG list) would allow membership to be migrated and add lists that I would subscrbe to read.

Though I don't care for the content of dc-stuff, and wasn't entertained, I've not stated it should be destroyed. I have voiced my desire to see an announce-only list. Though some people have asked about its value (above) I don't think anyone has come out and made a statement that it should be destroyed.

There are of course a vocal minority who, like most vocal minorities, whine/bitch/moan/cry over what a mean and evil place it is and how horrible the people are there. These few are usually children of all ages who snuck out from under mommy's skirt, got into daddy's closet, put on daddy's 'big man' pants, and are trying to play with the 'big kids' or a bunch of politically correct limp wristed panty wearing wankers who demand that people subscribe to their world view then run away crying when people don't while calling them Fascists-Racists-Homophobes and compare them to HItler.
( Godwin's Law, from list members? (http://www.faqs.org/faqs/usenet/legends/godwin/) and that is a good thing?)

Anyone can join a political discussion. The level of knowledge required to express an opinion? None. As a result, it can be hard to tell if a person posting their opinion is really, "that dumb," or is just another troll.

Discussion of politics, and the dissention and flaming often associated with them has existed on the dc-stuff for quite a while.

One plus for keeping it they way it is, but only moving the list over the one of DT's servers, is that we can direct people on the forums wishing to discuss politics to that list. I've done it in the past, but I don't know how many people actually subscribed.

As an example think of what just happened at Columbia to the leader of the Minutemen where students who are supposedly for free speech and equality for all bum rushed the stage, put an attempted beat down on the speaker, and chanted that no such subject would ever be uttered at Columbia because it was a view counter to theirs.
Yes. A perfect example of what would happen if the dc-stuff list were to become moderated. Someone's post would not be allowed to pass, and then there would be claims of favoritism, elitism, and/or censorship for any number of reasons including disagreement with the views posted. Eventually, someone would say they are leaving the list, and without new membership, the count of members would slowly approach 1, or a group of people in agreement over the topics being discussed.

In my mind killing the list because of this vocal minority is in essence surrendering to the tyranny of the minority. Frankly if you don't like it unsubscribe, don't post, don't read it. Otherwise jump in, the water is fine. Hold you own and don't be an idiot and you will be fine. Otherwise go back to the kiddie table and clutch your bubu or better yet please GO OUTSIDE AND PLAY HIDE AND GO FUCK YOURSELF!
Hey now. Playing hide-and-go-fuck-yourself is supposed to be an INSIDE sport-- this is what the police told me.

Seriously though, I subscribed, I watched, I left. Is anyone here suggesting that dc-stuff should be destroyed? People above have questioned its value, and asked for an announce-only list, as well as others, but I don't think anyone said they should be destroyed.

If the list needs moving I will step up and host it if no one else will. Shutting down, moderating it, or changing its focus, to me, brings to mind the way so many of the silent majority simply roll over and give in to the wing nut minority because they don't want to be called dirty names.
Based on what DT was offering, I think that he would be looking for list managers for any litsts hosted on-site. If you are a list manager, you can verify DT's membership to the dc-stuff list to confirm he is actually able to see any threads on dc-stuff, where you are all discussing this.

[shrdlu]

Good day, gentle hackers.

Wahoo! I wondered when you'd make your way over here.

[snip]

I am cross-posting this message to both dc-stuff and the forums,
and I'll check for answers in each location.

--Foofus.

Good luck with that (the cross-posting). The list hasn't been so timely, of late.

One thing that has kept, and keeps, the dc-stuff list going, is the link from the defcon page (you need new blood now and then, if only to provide unsubscribe entertainment). Since it's not moderated, it doesn't seem to need a lot of attention (although Priest and Bobcat would be the ones to know).

I *do* wish Pete had thought to poke one of them (i.e. Priest or Bobcat), or perhaps dump a clue to the list, but there you have it. I'm about to unsubscribe again from the list, now that I've stirred things up.

TTFN

[shrdlu]

I am. Bobcat is. It seems to be motoring along fine frankly. If there is a problem let me know.

Priest

I was pretty sure that Bobcat was (but I hate to take things for granted). I was pretty sure you still managed, but wasn't sure you read (either the list, or the forums). I don't think Bobcat's on the forums. I just wanted to see to it that the people most affected had a voice.

TTFN

[ßobÇat]

I don't think Bobcat's on the forums.

I joined long ago. I just rarely read the forums. Or any forum, anywhere. I thought usenet had solved the intragroup communications problem quite nicely.

There's not that much actual work involved in running the list. A few times a year someone has trouble posting or something and they usually ask me for help. There's not often anything I can fix on mailman, except to fix up their address. pete's spam filters keep the admin queue pretty empty (unless someone else has been clearing it). As long as you can keep mailman healthy you won't have a problem.

[shrdlu]

I joined long ago. I just rarely read the forums. Or any forum, anywhere. I thought usenet had solved the intragroup communications problem quite nicely.

There's not that much actual work involved in running the list. A few times a year someone has trouble posting or something and they usually ask me for help. There's not often anything I can fix on mailman, except to fix up their address. pete's spam filters keep the admin queue pretty empty (unless someone else has been clearing it). As long as you can keep mailman healthy you won't have a problem.

Actually, I think that this will be a good thing, long term. The current delay between posting, and arrival, is pretty steep. Moving it elsewhere can only help that. I think that Foofus and Digital Ebola have the best handle on things (i.e. keep everything, and just move it elsewhere). It isn't my cup of tea, but I'd still be sorry to see it gone.

I'm with you on forums, but someone on Coffee Wars had to make the sacrifice, and foofus has a life (sort of). I'm just glad I saw this (I don't check in as often as during defcon). I'll probably bail from dc-stuff once this blows over (one way or the other), but I guess that I want to see what happens next for now.

TTFN

[Digital Ebola]

On the subject of moving:

1. I wouldn't expect everyone to enjoy the list. it's not for everyone, both in tone and subject matter.

2. Jokes aside about the 8 people thing, these people have enjoyed discussions for many years, and it has had it's ups and downs. Sure, it's not always about Defcon, hell, ALOT of it isn't... but then again, Defcon isn't always about Defcon either. It's what you make of it. This is what has been made of the list, love or hate it.

3. I have enjoyed the list, greatly. I have enjoyed the people, greatly. I don't think that I am the only one.

4. Is there a place for such a list? Sure! Has been for years. Is there a place for a dedicated announcement list? Sure! How hard is it to have both? Not very.

5. Would I want to admin the list? I'd rather not, but if there was no other choice, and it meant the list staying as-is in content terms, yes.

6. Would I devote server resources to this? Yes, if it came down to it.

7. Moderation? No, No, No, No. Please no.

8. Anarchy is fun, try it!

I like the idea of the forums, it's very valid. I'm not a fan of that style of communication, but I think this forum is a wonderful way to achieve a purpose. I also think the mailing list is a wonderful way of achieving another purpose, and that purpose is putting a bunch of curmudgeons together to talk about random stuff. Not everyone is a curmudgeon. Not everyone is suited for it.

Please, won't you think of the curmudgeons?

[Europus]

I have one question and one question only. For the Dark Tangent: why was this announced here, instead of on the list it affects?

[shrdlu]

I have one question and one question only. For the Dark Tangent: why was this announced here, instead of on the list it affects?

You know, I don't think this is the right question, here. I'd be a lot more interested to know why Pete Shipley didn't at least mention this to the two current administrators before he made the offer to DT (or at least let them know what was up).

Really, I think that people were just trying to do the right thing, and not necessarily thinking about who it might affect.

I'll point out that I replied to him (DT), *telling* him that I was posting to dc-stuff, so he may have just figured it was handled. Don't read things into a situation that aren't there.

Europa, huh? Interesting choice.

[Zane]

I have been a lurker on the list for a number of years and always enjoy a good laugh. Hell once in a while something educational even zips past the general banter. Occasionally it might even be slightly technology/Defcon related, that is when it’s not all about elephants raping and killing rhinos of course. I for one would miss my daily dose of DC-STUFF, who can forget good ole Wynacht or the ever annoying but always entertaining unsubscribefest. Albeit a lot of it seems to be more than some can comprehend, fuck them, I agree with what priest said on the forum this snippet of his post says it all "please GO OUTSIDE AND PLAY HIDE AND GO FUCK YOURSELF!". If you came to DC-STUFF looking for announcements about Defcon and are disconcerted by what you have stumbled upon, AKA elephants raping and killing rhinos, there is always the unsubscribe feature which if attempted while still in shock from said posts may wind up in the afore mentioned entertainment for the rest of us. I guess I like this collection of randomly crude and vulgar barbarities with its seldom educational yet always entertaining spew of what ever the hell anyone happens to feel like slinging at our mailboxes. I hope to see this list live on as is for many years, maybe even as a contributor when I get a chance rather than a solely voyeuristic approach.

Zane Revai

[TheCotMan]

I read through the recent archived thread on dc-stuff, and want to offer the following to address incorrect assumptions about the forums:

1) The waiting period to reply to existing threads is presently only 24 hours.

2) The system of promotions to different "titles" (Lurker, partial Lurker, New User, Registered User) is for only 2 to 4 weeks, to allow more controls and access, and limit would-be spammers, people asking FAQ,, requests for for tech support, or other common problems associated with impatient posters. After that, there are no other automatic promotions. We know, "how long," a person has been registered to a forum or mailing list is no measure of worth for that person. This is why there are no other automatic promotions beyond a few weeks. People set their own titles after 2 or 3 weeks.
(You might be amazed at how much is filtered by enforcing a 24-hour waiting period.)
The only other usergroups are for people that actually do stuff, like goons and mods (as examples) or user-joinable usergroups to let users control the display of extra forums for DCG, or "social" spaces with less restrictive rules.

3) When you subscribe to a thread and enable email notices for subscribed threads, you don't get every post update emailed to you. You get a notice when there is a new post, and nothing more until you visit again. If you are logged in while a post is made, you will almost certainly not get an email update about that post, since you were logged in when it was made and can see for yourself.

If you have questions about the forums, let me know, and Ill try to answer.

[Dark Tangent]

Woo! Lot's of posts over the weekend it seems.

Let's see.. no big conspiracy on why I posted here first. I was working on backing up the configs to dc-stuff, and posted to my open browser window.

As for leaving it alone, changing it, etc. It looks like a consensus has formed. Leave dc-stuff in anarcy mode, and create a new announcement list, or whatever. But keep dc-stuff alone.

As for where? Well the new list server machine is almost complete, so it will live in defcon.org space.

Who manages it? I hope not me! I can supply badwidth and a machine, but I'd prefer to let the current group of admins do their thing.

That's what I've worked out so far.. keep 'em coming.

[shrdlu]

Woo! Lot's of posts over the weekend it seems.

Let's see.. no big conspiracy on why I posted here first. I was working on backing up the configs to dc-stuff, and posted to my open browser window.

I am amused at the number of people who were believing in some sort of conspiracy, but want to point out that it would have been nice to follow it up with a post to dc-stuff itself. Sometimes the population on the forums seems to think of itself as representative of the larger population that attends defcon. In that same way, the inhabitants of dc-stuff have been forgotten.

As for leaving it alone, changing it, etc. It looks like a consensus has formed. Leave dc-stuff in anarcy mode, and create a new announcement list, or whatever. But keep dc-stuff alone.

I don't think a consensus has been reached at all. I'd give it a couple more days to work itself out. I suspect that others would think that also. I would think it more useful if you could read the threads over there, rather than just look here.

https://mailsrv.dis.org/mailman/private/dc-stuff/2006-October/030301.html

I note that you no longer are a subscriber to the list (or at least, your name doesn't show on that list). Access to the archives should be pretty easy; two of the administrators are on the forums, and I'm sure you'd only have to ask (or you could temporarily subscribe). The conversation *there* has been much more heated than *here*, as you might imagine.

As for where? Well the new list server machine is almost complete, so it will live in defcon.org space.

Who manages it? I hope not me! I can supply badwidth and a machine, but I'd prefer to let the current group of admins do their thing.

That's what I've worked out so far.. keep 'em coming.

I note that Foofus made a post there (https://mailsrv.dis.org/mailman/private/dc-stuff/2006-October/030320.html), and here (http://forum.defcon.org/showpost.php?p=83174&postcount=21), and (like you) has a life on the weekend. I'd like to see it play itself out, and would hope that nothing hasty is decided. In the event that dc-stuff is rehosted elsewhere, I'd hope that you'd want to be supportive, and continue to provide a link to it, rather than compete with it.

I am also excited to think that you'd have an announcement list. I'd be one of the first to subscribe. It would be nice, also, to have a discussion list, but one that was moderated (unlike dc-stuff), and would be more concerned with defcon. I think of dc-stuff as something like /dev/null, but more sophisticated, and at this point, self-moderating (suffer fools gladly is not in the vocubulary of the inhabitants).

Sorry that this is becoming book length, but I hope that you will give it a few days to continue to work itself out. Do you have a timeline on when Pete is wanting things to be gone? I suspect that it's asap, and I'm sure people are working on just that.

More later, when others are up...

[ßobÇat]

DC-STUFF has moved.
Over the next few hours, the last posts made to dc-stuff@dis.org will trickle out to the list. You should get a bounce message if you try to post to it. (might take a while, it's been slow the past few days).
If you are a non-hidden member, you have been automagically subscribed, so address your posts to dc-stuff@dc-stuff.org - Now with added anarchy!
If you are not a member, won't you join us?
http://dc-stuff.org/mailman/listinfo/dc-stuff_dc-stuff.org

[converge]

I'm glad to see this was resolved as it should have been. It was a little disturbing to catch tail end of some folks bitching and whining about it not being fair, stomping their feet about being net.elders that remember fido, generalizing and judging forum members because it happened to be initially questioned on here, or ultimately some kind of voting thing (wtf was up with that?)

For those that recently subscribed, you may have to re-sub to the new list. I'm not certain that the default of the previous list was to hide your email from the list, but I suspect some new subs may have gotten lost in the shuffle (having not received the transfer confirm/welcome for the new list automagically).

Digi / Bobcat: Will the archives be brought over? Remain showcased by the dis crew? ... or lost in the shuffle?

[ßobÇat]

51 addresses were hidden (seems like most were bouncing anyway), they were not subscribed, but everyone got (will get) a message telling them of the change. 1651 addresses were added to the new listserv. Only 10 of them have unsubbed so far.
We have the existing archives, they will eventually be put on dc-stuff.org. I don't know what pete intends to do with his copy.

[shrdlu]

I'm glad to see this was resolved as it should have been. It was a little disturbing to catch tail end of some folks bitching and whining about it not being fair, stomping their feet about being net.elders that remember fido, generalizing and judging forum members because it happened to be initially questioned on here, or ultimately some kind of voting thing (wtf was up with that?)

Really, I don't think it was whining. I think it was a bit odd for it to be discussed here at all. I think that DT was very kind to think of rescuing it, but I still don't get (and probably will never know) why Evil Pete didn't just email the list, or at least the administrators, and let them know. You're one of those poeple on both, and used to being on both. Put yourself in the shoes of someone on the list who only heard about it after I posted over there.

If you were one of those, reading discussions about what to do with it must have been odd, to say the least. You had Digital Avatar talking about being a net.elder; his feelings were just hurt because he tried to make an alternative, and for the most part, nobody played.

For those that recently subscribed, you may have to re-sub to the new list. I'm not certain that the default of the previous list was to hide your email from the list, but I suspect some new subs may have gotten lost in the shuffle (having not received the transfer confirm/welcome for the new list automagically).

Yeah. I was subscribed as "hidden" and had to manually resubscribe myself. I note that a few people that thought they'd unsubscribed got added to the new list, so it may be that Bobcat is working with an older subscriber list. Still, he made a post to that list, and hopefully anyone interesting will follow over to the new list.

Digi / Bobcat: Will the archives be brought over? Remain showcased by the dis crew? ... or lost in the shuffle?

I've asked that question myself. I think the plan is to bring them over. I hope so.

I've been on dc-stuff, off and on, since, um, er, sometime between defcon III and defcon IV. Man, that's a longggggggg time ago. Scary.

[TheCotMan]

It was a little disturbing to catch tail end of some folks bitching and whining about it not being fair, stomping their feet about being net.elders that remember fido, generalizing and judging forum members because it happened to be initially questioned on here, or ultimately some kind of voting thing (wtf was up with that?)

["They Suck!" with reply, "They Suck more!"]

It is natural for many people to participate in a defense of something/someone when they perceive an attack on that same something/something that they value. Some will choose to mount an offense as a defensive strategy.

[Value statements were made about their list, off of their list, as well as member perception of being slighted by not being contacted first on their own list.]

When dealing with a group of people that are often paranoid, suspicious of change, and contemplative of motivations and hidden agendas whenever a change appears to be pending, there is great potential for quick escalation to assume nefarious intentions beyond that of actual motivations. (Does this group sound familiar?)

[It's easy for armchair-anarchists to make a mountains out of molehills in these circles.]

This analysis of events found in some forum/list members is often healthy and is often missing in the general population of sheeple, but "over-analysis" can lead to false assertions, false conclusions, and false positives for conspiracy.

[A torch that illuminates, can also burn; is this torch a gift, or a threat of arson?]

At this point, we shouldn't aggrivate the hornet's nest.

[Like what I said about Chris? "Don't poke the bear" ? Yeah. Kind of like that.]
:-)

[converge]

Really, I don't think it was whining. I think it was a bit odd for it to be discussed here at all. Indeed .. and please note the some folks part of that, because there was a legit head scratch token for why the list wasn't brought in on it sooner. Some question why it was brought up on the forums at all, but I can understand that chain of events if DT was assumed the next list resource torch holder; that said, from a couple of the emails I caught there was definately some whining.

I've asked that question myself. I think the plan is to bring them over. I hope so.
We have the existing archives, they will eventually be put on dc-stuff.org.... Bobcat wins! .. you sir may claim your prize of (1) beer OR (1) group hug from dc-stuff at the next Defcon. Kudos to Digi, Bobcat, and Foofus for stepping up, with an honorable mention to shrdlu for taking flack on being the conspiritous shot messenger.

At this point, we shouldn't aggrivate the hornet's nest. But .. ITS FUN!

In all honosty, I hope that folks from the list feel welcome to join and romp around the forums.. as much as forum members might now be curious about the list and test the waters instead of relying on a few developed opinions.

[Europus]

The Dark Tangent:
Let's see.. no big conspiracy on why I posted here first. I was working on backing up the configs to dc-stuff, and posted to my open browser window.

Okay. Pete notified you, you should have notified the list or its moderators, not this forum. Are you a parent? If so, eventually your child will marry - you'll want to hear about that from the child, not from one of your childs friends or someone else. See how that works? It's water under the bridge now, but you are well-advised to keep thngs like this within their hierarchy.

TheCotMan:
Value statements were made about their list, off of their list...
That is correct, not that the whines and complaints of non-contributors should be given any weight. For example, do you care what anyone there thinks of this forum or you in particular? You went on to provide a bit of phychoanalysis, you shouldn't have.

[shrdlu]

Let's see.. no big conspiracy on why I posted here first...

Okay. Pete notified you, you should have notified the list or its moderators, not this forum. Are you a parent? If so, eventually your child will marry - you'll want to hear about that from the child, not from one of your childs friends or someone else...

Please, this isn't helpful. I'm not sure which one of you this is, but I have a couple of suspects. It isn't necessary. It's over; everything's okay. Lighten up.


Value statements were made about their list, off of their list...
That is correct, not that the whines and complaints of non-contributors should be given any weight. For example, do you care what anyone there thinks of this forum or you in particular? You went on to provide a bit of phychoanalysis, you shouldn't have.

Nothing like playing into everyone's beliefs about the inhabitants of dc-stuff. I'd apologize for whoever this is, but I'm hoping it can just be ignored. It's really bad when someone can make bobcat look mature and civilized, you know?

[ßobÇat]

OBviously I need to increase my use of beer and strippers.

[TheCotMan]

That is correct, not that the whines and complaints of non-contributors should be given any weight. For example, do you care what anyone there thinks of this forum or you in particular?
The forum? Sure. I've read through comments about these forums from members and non-members to find what can be added (or removed) to make it more effective as a tool to help getting information about Defcon available, encourage related discussions, and avoid asshatery.

I joined the forums long before 2003, but I didn't like what I found then, and so I left the forums. Obviously, I did come back.

The contest/event subforums came about as an answer to the problem of people being too lazy to search for the proper thread in which to reply. Why care? These mistakes were pointed out by busy mods, which lead to flame-fests from the user being corrected and other members directing flames to the new user, such that 30% of all posts were in /dev/null.

The Specific Contest/Event subforums lead to giving some Contest/Event leaders more controls in the subforums for their events to set/remove stickies. Why? Many reasons, but it helped free mods from settings/unsetting stickies or splitting/merging threads in each contest/event subforum. This has lead to more involvement from various organizers of contests and evemts. The DCG expansion to allow for links to DCG with web pages and/or discussions came about through observations and complaints about inactive DCG.

Complaints about the search system on the forums taking too long with an enforced delay between searches, lead us to a delay that appears to be a better balance.

A user complained about a lack of RSS feeds, and after a short testing period, that was enabled.

Addition of a search <form> at the top of the first page came about as a result of making searching obvious and easier. The addition of a link to the rules at the top, and in multiple places also came about through suggestion.

Ideas to deal with spam, have also come from a few sources and complaints from mods and users.

Many ideas have been put into place to minimize the amount of effort of forum moderators, and through other people's suggestions, we have a drastic cut in /dev/null posts per month, as well as Fucktard Hall.

Yes, I care about people's complaints on the forums. If a fix for the complaint does not hurt the present members, and "improves" the forums, then one of the benevolent dictators may ask for discussion before including a change, or just make a change.

Some changes help us, and some don't. Some changes are liked, and others are not. We continue to try to make thie forums better for the members that frequent them, but we know we can't please everyone.

You went on to provide a bit of phychoanalysis, you shouldn't have.
Awww shucks. It 'twasn't nothin' :-)
[No Problem.]

Most people would not have bothered to read it all.

[ßobÇat]

I hate to almost change the topic, but is dc-girls still active? Do they need rescuing? Because that would prove that irony is SO not dead.

[TheCotMan]

I hate to almost change the topic, but is dc-girls still active? Do they need rescuing? Because that would prove that irony is SO not dead.

On many levels, this is true, with the obvious inclusion of posting this question on the forums too, instead (?) of posting it on that.
(heh heh)

But .. ITS FUN!

In all honosty, I hope that folks from the list feel welcome to join and romp around the forums.. as much as forum members might now be curious about the list and test the waters instead of relying on a few developed opinions.

Heh-heh. *Them*?!?! *Here!?* Nooo! ;-)

Seriously though, they are welcome to join, just like everyone else. However, after reading through their recent archives, I don't think many of them like the forum environment as much as the mailing list.

[Dark Tangent]

Excellent! Situation resolved.

When it is set up and working, and you have any info you want us to post on defcon.org, send it to me and we'll update the existing information about dc-stuff that is currently on-line.

[ßobÇat]

DT, quit being so fucking reasonable. We need you to descend with fury upon the list and condemn us as heretics. It's only fair. :)

Except for changing the link to dc-stuff@dc-stuff.org, I think we're good for now. Thanks.

[Europus]

I tried to start a new thread, for a new topic, but. The chicanery around here is getting intense.

Question: who controls permalinks here:

Ulex

[TheCotMan]

I tried to start a new thread, for a new topic, but. The chicanery around here is getting intense.

Question: who controls permalinks here:

Ulex

Why no new thread?
This "General Announcements" forum is a special exception, as only goons/staff/organizers/mods can post new threads, but all non-banned accounts over 24 hours old can only reply. (Similar to an announce list, but not quite the same.)

The Social forum (/dev/random) may be the least restrictive, as it has fewer rules than any other section, and allows posting of new threads and replies sooner than any other forum-- it is also user-subscribable and unsubscribable in case users don't want to see that less restrictive content.

Nearly all other forums follow the waiting periods outlined in the forced lurking period discussion thread as described in the welcome email for users that sign up to the forums.

Permalink (forums)
Users can post URL in their posts and add them as part of their sigs. SPAM URL are not tolerated.

Links from rendered pages and for descriptions of events can and are added by forum admins. There are 3 forum admins. I'll admit to being one of them, but the other 2 may confess this on their own only if they wish.

I've taken the time to find links to various DCG web sites, and add them to DCG forum discussions, and direct links to off-site DCG forums from these forums.

We've also added links to contest and event pages from the subforums created for these contests oir events.

End:
Now that you have more information than you probably wanted on this, what issues might you have with permalinks and the forums?

[shrdlu]

Could the powers that be please change the link on the defcon.org web site to point to the new list? We have a nice, new, shiny web page, and it's the time honored way of getting new victims, er, subscribers for the list.

http://dc-stuff.org/mailman/listinfo/dc-stuff_dc-stuff.org

or even

http://www.dc-stuff.org/

would be great.

Thanks again to Digital Ebola and BobCat for making the effort.

[TheCotMan]

Oh. That link. Assuming you or someone else has not done it, I would suggest an email to DT with the information he requested above:
* when it is active
* what link to publish on which pages on the main defcon website.*

He seems to check email more often than forums.

*- Especially important if it is linked from many places.

[shrdlu]

Oh. That link. Assuming you or someone else has not done it, I would suggest an email to DT with the information he requested above:
* when it is active
* what link to publish on which pages on the main defcon website.*

He seems to check email more often than forums.

*- Especially important if it is linked from many places.

Good points, all, and I've fired off an email. I really don't think it's a link on more than just the mailing list web page, but I've been wrong before. I'm used to it.

[Dark Tangent]

We'll update it monday! Sorry for the delay, was rebuilding my laptop.

Good points, all, and I've fired off an email. I really don't think it's a link on more than just the mailing list web page, but I've been wrong before. I'm used to it.

[shrdlu]

We'll update it monday! Sorry for the delay, was rebuilding my laptop.

No worries. Bobcat told me (after I posted this) that he'd already emailed Blackbeetle. Whatever he emailed should be what is actually used (rather than what I posted).

Thanks again for everything.

P.S. I'm actually glad that this happened, now that it's nearly over, since it's caused an interesting resurgence of some of the old guard. Recipes for pumpkin soup are currently sought (not here, there).