Banned from the Riv?

[Abby_Normal]

Rumor has it the Riv was very liberal when it came to banning people from the property. I'd like to know if there is any truth to that.

Who has been banned from the Riv and why (not banned from/by Defcon)? What are the actaul numbers?

Also, does anyone have any actual info about dammage/arrests/problems?

How bad was it really?

[Deviant Ollam]

i know of three people who were banned outright from the riviera during defcon (who told me this personally and whom i believe) and of at least one or two who were recently aparently notified that they were no longer allowed at the riviera (and this would be de facto banned from defcon)

the first party was a group that was directly related to a security incident which has gotten a lot of attention already. sadly, people were swept up in that purge who weren't actually doing anything wrong.

the second group (and i'm not naming any names outright since i don't know who wants to be known as "those banned people" or not... they had expressed a desire to not be specifically identified when it was first discussed) was, quite unfortunately, doing nothing wrong or illegal and is in no way deserving of this treatment. while i didn't learn of this face-to-face, i know and respect the people involved and have no cause to think it's a myth.

i can only hope there's some confusion or misunderstanding, however... because this is grade A bullshit, i can assure you.

[Abby_Normal]

I know of one ban from the riv that was totaly unfair. But the defcon staff are looking into the matter, hopefully it will be lifted as it was totaly baseless.

The other thing I have heard is that the Riv is refusing to rent ANY penthouse rooms to ANYONE related to defcon. I think this is in some kind of misguided attempt to stop people from having room parties.

Over all, I am very unhappy with the Riv. The lower level staff (house keeping, porter, valets etc) were great, but security and upper managment were rather unpleasent, to say the least.

I tried to cut them slack all through con, since they were not used to us, and I assumed that things would improve now that they know us, but so far it doesn't look that way.

[TheCotMan]

The other thing I have heard is that the Riv is refusing to rent ANY penthouse rooms to ANYONE related to defcon. I think this is in some kind of misguided attempt to stop people from having room parties.
If it is true, it is easy enough to bypass:
"Reservations? Yes. I want a reservation for these days. Oh, I am with the [not defcon group having a convention at the same time].

The only way for them to know, is if you previously signed up for a room under Defcon with the same name/creditcard number, or if you tell them.

[cereal76]

Yeah I was in a room 2 floors down from the red bull incident and was booted. One guy who walked into said room while security was interrogating me got booted. Another kid who followed that guy into the room got booted.

I can see security going up to the room in question and booting everyone when nobody confessed, but taking an elevator down and looking for more people to fuck with is pretty damn stupid.

[icetre]

Of course if you did this, I would think you would get yourself signed right up for a ban from defcon.

Not to mention, if you actually USE the room for what *our* intended purposes usually are, the riv would shit their pants and most likely have the authorities on you.

Of course they're not going to check, and if they really intend to keep the penthouses locked off, they're gonna have to do better than that.

Adam


If it is true, it is easy enough to bypass:
"Reservations? Yes. I want a reservation for these days. Oh, I am with the [not defcon group having a convention at the same time].

The only way for them to know, is if you previously signed up for a room under Defcon with the same name/creditcard number, or if you tell them.

[Siviak]

oh, I have a trick or two up my sleeve... don't you worry your pretty little heads about it

[staticblac]

oh, I have a trick or two up my sleeve... don't you worry your pretty little heads about it

Is one of these tricks a ninja mask to hid you from the eye in the sky? Because I was told they took the pictures of people that got booted.

[astcell]

Yeah I was in a room 2 floors down from the red bull incident and was booted. One guy who walked into said room while security was interrogating me got booted. Another kid who followed that guy into the room got booted.

I can see security going up to the room in question and booting everyone when nobody confessed, but taking an elevator down and looking for more people to fuck with is pretty damn stupid.

This attitude from security is akin to what I see in third world countries when you give a brute a gun and a license to carry it. Then again it is a gambling hotel and they have the state's gestapo breathing down their neck. They can't look like they are cutting anyone any slack.


Is one of these tricks a ninja mask to hid you from the eye in the sky? Because I was told they took the pictures of people that got booted.

So next year grow your hair back and don't wear black.

[Abby_Normal]

I suspect once all the dust dies down many of the bans will be forgotten. I think the Riv is overreacting, and just needs time to calm down.

And if not there are lots of other dumps on the strip that will be happy to take our money.

[Ne0nRa1n]

I feel really lame asking this, but what was the red bull incident?

[Deviant Ollam]

I feel really lame asking this, but what was the red bull incident?one person got too drunk and acted like an asstard. part of this entailed throwing a canned beverage out of a window. fortunately no one was hurt, but someone could have been. it wound up being a huge security incident, with both that person as well as others who were merely in the vicinity being kicked out of the hotel and, therefore, out of defcon.

[not5150]

I suspect once all the dust dies down many of the bans will be forgotten. I think the Riv is overreacting, and just needs time to calm down.

And if not there are lots of other dumps on the strip that will be happy to take our money.

Casinos have a very very long memory and bans are almost never forgotten. They keep a ban book and the surveillance guys pride themselves on catching bans who try to come back on property.

[Deviant Ollam]

Casinos have a very very long memory and bans are almost never forgotten. They keep a ban book and the surveillance guys pride themselves on catching bans who try to come back on property.but do you think that's for all banned people? i have to imagine that many folks make themselves unwelcome for one reason or another. the back room staff more than likely takes prinde in nailing Griffin Book persons... not your average "banned for being drunk and disorderly" types. (not saying that's why defcon folk were banned, but i'd imagine they fall into the less severe category)

[Xodia]

one person got too drunk and acted like an asstard. part of this entailed throwing a canned beverage out of a window. fortunately no one was hurt, but someone could have been. it wound up being a huge security incident, with both that person as well as others who were merely in the vicinity being kicked out of the hotel and, therefore, out of defcon.

Yeah...That sucked.

As for the bans, the Riv seemed pretty serious about the Red Bull bans. The asshat that threw the can was banned and photographed along with everyone else in the room. I am not sure how serious all the bans were taken though. Given its Casino security, I imagine they will remember if someone were to make a reservation. I don't see how it could be enforced properly if the people in question weren't gambling, staying at the hotel, or doing anything too awfully suspicious.

I know this much, I'm just glad I work for a place that is considering sending me to Blackhat. ;)

[astcell]

Security guards are briefed that if Red Bull cans are thrown out windows, the terrorists have won.

Remember back when something had to HAPPEN before someone got into trouble? Or am I that old?

[Abby_Normal]

Security guards are briefed that if Red Bull cans are thrown out windows, the terrorists have won.

Remember back when something had to HAPPEN before someone got into trouble? Or am I that old?

Nobody bring a Lite Brite and we should be ok!!

I felt like we were all getting the blame for the actions of a few. Most of the parties didn't break any rules or do anything wrong.

I think this is only going to get worse. Aside from the poor treatment we got last time, the Riv seems to have no interest in working with us to make next year better. I know we'd be glad to send people from our crew out to work with them in advance to avoid the problems of last year, and find ways to do what we do that would still be acceptable (and profitable) to the Riv.

[blauman]

Security guards are briefed that if Red Bull cans are thrown out windows, the terrorists have won.

Remember back when something had to HAPPEN before someone got into trouble? Or am I that old?

We are getting old... remember when signing off Defcon with one hand :)

[astcell]

Lite Brite! Scavenger Hunt item!

[Dallas]

One cannot be banned from the riveria unless they can activley figure out who you are. Most "bans" are for the casino, other wise it is like the other hotel bans which are enforced by a $ 7.00 per hour security guard who has been dealt with.

All but 2 of the security folks are gone from last year, and only one is an issue. I think based on last years performance, many have ideas how to keep him busy. Dont know how is other "guards" will react.

The other issue is however, dealing with undercover PD. They were fairly easy to see - Shoes and age gave most away. But were quick to show up.

We need to find a place to setup a party which is away from security, accessable by most everyone, but restricted to those how know or can answer a simple question..(what is 1 + 1?) =3 something any computer nerd could figure out in a sec.

Also need alternatives if they get busted and ways to protect those at the party.

Also, I would like to suggest a beverage tasting and shot contest. Also I need someone to bring me some moonshine for my beverage this year, as I dont have access to any now.

- Dallas

[theprez98]

We need to find a place to setup a party which is away from security, accessable by most everyone, but restricted to those how know or can answer a simple question..(what is 1 + 1?) =3 something any computer nerd could figure out in a sec.

Also need alternatives if they get busted and ways to protect those at the party.
Why not just have a legal party and avoid the shenanigans involved with secret locations, secret pass phrases and protecting underage drinkers.

[noid]

Especially when its at a hotel where security can just enter the room anyways.

You: Cant come in unless you know the secret codeword
Hotel Security: Is it 'Fuck You'?. Step aside, sport.

You'd probably be better off restricting boozing to those 21+ and filter out the shitheads by making it something similar to the Network Ninja party (need to know someone 'in the know' to get an invite).

[Dallas]

The party last year was based on "in the know", but still turned out well over a hundred+, hard to keep a secret. Many of us want to share the love with our fellow defconers, but in our own style. We dont tend to be exclusive, but after last year need to find a way to protect ourselves..

[[Syntax]]

Well.. I was "in the know" for many a party, one I got stopped at the door by a self proclaimed doorman. Who honestly didnt give a crap if you were invited or not. The other party I tried my damndest to make contact with someone to get an invite and after many a failed attempt ended up having a female who didnt even know whos party it was score invites for several of us.

So the key to getting into a party is not being in the know, its having breasts..

[Abby_Normal]

Why not just have a legal party and avoid the shenanigans involved with secret locations, secret pass phrases and protecting underage drinkers.

We tried that. Told the Riv months in advance that we would be having a party. Carded everyone. All it did was let the Riv know who we were. Doesn't seem to pay to play by the rules. We did everything up front.

I heard stories about people being turned away from our party by people who didn't work for us, but for another party on the same floor. We had an open door policy (as long as you were over 21). We'd kick you out if you were being an ass, but anyone could come it. I am sorry to those friends of ours who were wrongly turned away.


Perhaps we need some kind of comittee to go between DC and the Riv managment to avoid problems next time. Many of the Riv staff we talked to didn't hadn't been told anything about what was going on, I think that cause a lot of problems.

[cjunky]

Wotcha.

Just to clear a couple of things up.

The redbull incident was a little more serious than described. The fucktard that threw the can waited until there was someone below. They missed but more by luck and physics than intention, thoiugh the intention may have been just to "scare" the staff member below.

Everything after that was largely collateral damage.

Im pretty sure that the guards didnt wander down the lower floors fucking with people. Why? cos I was one of 4 defcon staff with them. I turned up seconds after it happened and left with the staff.

What happened to abby's party sucked. Thats why I put my neck on the line a couple of times, but like I said by that point it was all pretty much collateral damage. Once you stir up a hornets nest its pretty near damned impossible to pacify it.

That can incident turned what was mild harrasment all over the con into full on fuck you very much.

As for the undercover cops, yeah they were reasonably easy to spot but they made no effort to hide. Again i know this becuase I spent most of staurday with them.
From my perspective they were amongst the best cops ive ever spent time with (and trust me ive spent some time with cops in my past ;) they were open, honest and genuinely interested in the con.

They overlooked several embarrasing incidents, made all the more embarrasing by the fact that i had to escort them into those incidents and remained in pretty good humour throughout.

If people got banned, i like to hope that they deserved it. if they didnt then is there anyone here that doesnt believe goons will fight their case?

Some of us spent alot of time making sure the hotels first impression was a good one. in my case it was the first con where i drank almost nothing and didnt party.

When we had finished though the head of security was singing our praises. As were LV Metro. If thats changed over time then i guess we have work cut out for us again. What was done once can be done again.

those of you who have been to a few more cons than is good for you. remember some of the incursions from hotel security? can you honestly say this was more than some of those?

anyone remember when metro descended on us with helicopters? i spent several hours hiding in a hot tub while bathing under searchlights.

this was nothing. actually i woulds say most people didnt even know there was hassle going on.

As always there will be parties.

As noid said the secret to avoiding the hassle is to be official. Do ninja get hassled? Does ceasar? why? Becuase they are masters of keeping a low profile when necessary but still doing what they want to do.

And the next time i hear someone whining that they cant do something becuase "they wont let me" im personally going to spank them.

dont be a bunch of pussies :)


By the way, I issue you all with a severe weather warning. Im going to party this con. Ive been preparing and there may be collateral damage. who wants to be my collateral damage?

cj

[Abby_Normal]

Wotcha.

Just to clear a couple of things up.

The redbull incident was a little more serious than described. The fucktard that threw the can waited until there was someone below. They missed but more by luck and physics than intention, thoiugh the intention may have been just to "scare" the staff member below.

I heard they found him cause they heard him crying.



What happened to abby's party sucked. Thats why I put my neck on the line a couple of times, but like I said by that point it was all pretty much collateral damage. Once you stir up a hornets nest its pretty near damned impossible to pacify it.

Thanks for the kind words, we tried to play by the rules, and we did everything the LV cops and riv staff asked, but it wasn't enough.

I guess one bad apple really can spoil it for everyone.

[cjunky]

Thanks for the kind words, we tried to play by the rules, and we did everything the LV cops and riv staff asked, but it wasn't enough.

I guess one bad apple really can spoil it for everyone.

Isnt that always the case? You guys took the brunt of the grief. That sucks. I wish it hadnt happened but its water under the bridge now.

If theres anything I can do to help going forward you know I will.

Hopefully there wont be the same hassle this year. We worked damned hard last year to find some common ground and make a good first impression. It might not feel like it from where you are standing but I think we succeeded.

Thats why this year im determine to spend some time partying. Ive been preparing for it.....I havent drunk alcohol in almost a year. those who know me should be afraid ;)

Anyone that gets between me and beer may need medical assistance.

Cj

[theprez98]

We tried that. Told the Riv months in advance that we would be having a party. Carded everyone. All it did was let the Riv know who we were. Doesn't seem to pay to play by the rules. We did everything up front.

I heard stories about people being turned away from our party by people who didn't work for us, but for another party on the same floor. We had an open door policy (as long as you were over 21). We'd kick you out if you were being an ass, but anyone could come it. I am sorry to those friends of ours who were wrongly turned away.


Perhaps we need some kind of comittee to go between DC and the Riv managment to avoid problems next time. Many of the Riv staff we talked to didn't hadn't been told anything about what was going on, I think that cause a lot of problems.
Having never been to DEFCON I will differ to others judgments on how to run their own things, but it seems to me that your prior communication with the hotel was the correct way to do things; and the real issue was the fact that some fucknuts at the hotel never properly communicated it to security and/or other hotel staff. In that case, I still think it's a better idea to go the legal route as opposed to secret passwords and locations, but that's just my opinion. :wink:

[cjunky]

Having never been to DEFCON I will differ to others judgments on how to run their own things, but it seems to me that your prior communication with the hotel was the correct way to do things; and the real issue was the fact that some fucknuts at the hotel never properly communicated it to security and/or other hotel staff. In that case, I still think it's a better idea to go the legal route as opposed to secret passwords and locations, but that's just my opinion. :wink:


in defence of abby and her crew, they really did try to be above board. The hotel was notified that there would be a party and an effort was made to comply with hotel wishes.

The problems were where the hotel heard party they heard small gathering of friends in one of their high roller suites. I dodnt think they realised just how hard we party.

The second problem was that there was another slightly less controlled party in the other high roller suite accross the hall.

The third problem was the queue of literally hundreds of guests trying to get into both parties.

The fourth problem was the fact that they didnt keep normal people away from us and there were infact normal people in the same block and even on the same floor in very expensive penthouse accomodation.

The fith problem was the complaints being phoned in to the security office and hotel switchboard at a rate of approximately one every 5 minutes.

The sixth problem was LV Metro being called to the site even though there were undercover working on site.

The seventh problem was the out of control drunken people spilling out of both parties causing damage, mayhem and further complaints to both the hotel and LV Metro.

However despite all this the hotel and the cops cut the con slack. They came and spoke to us. They treated us with respect.

Both parties were allowed to continue but got read the riot act and told that as LV Metro were on site there was no room for error. IDs must be checked. This is a hotel with a gaming license. it has a license to loose. The Alexis just had peeling paintwork and questionable stains to loose.

However out of all our controls some fucknut decides hes going to arial bombard a member of the hotel staff with a full can of redbull from many floors up. At that point someone effective added kerosene and a blowtorch to an already flammable situation.

At that point attendees became the enemy. That fundamental shift in attitude was visible from the way abby got treated, and the way the rest of the night progressed.

could we have salvaged something form the ashes? not a chance.

I was in a similar incident while working as a bouncer in england. In my case there was a student residence above the club i worked. The students were made because their new residence was cramped and harsh so they expressed their anger by trying to land a couple of projectiles on "the official looking people below", namely me and my team.

Did we respond? hell yeah. were we overenthusiastic. hell yeah. There were several points of significant structual damage when we finished.

So I have the greatest sympathy for the hotel and what they did. However I dont condone it. Abby and her whole crew are people I count as friends. The way she personaly was treated was wrong. However put a mouthy strong willed woman in a situation like that and you just know theres going to be trouble. My biggest regret about that night was that I still think that if I had been there it would have been a whole lot more peaceul and there would have been less aggro for my friends. Even though I know I couldnt be everywhere at once, and that night I needed to be in atleast 4 places at once, I feel I let them down.

None of that changes the fact that ultimately the parties were doomed anyway. All we really lost was the ability to choose our own terms and shut them down peacefully. We had already agreed with the hotel that we would close down the black and white ball that was on the same floor as those parties, and that was an "official" party.

Whats the solution?

I really hope it isnt for everyone to go off site. That would be sad. Why? becuase I would miss my friends. I am one of the key people responsible for security at the con at night. I work with a team of dedicated loyal goon-staff. That means Wherever they are, I am already there watching their backs.

Does that mean we goons need to work out wht to do? Yes. We need to come up with answers and help, but you guys need to help yourselves too.

Learn from the true uber-party-masters. Ceasar and his crew could probably throw a party in a trash can and make it one of the coolest parties of the year. Barkode could organise a party in the middle of a dry county and it would still be overflowing with booze. They arent the only ones. If there is one thing I will always have faith in, thats the defcon veteran's ability to throw parties no matter where no matter how.

At the end of the day what sort of hackers would we be if we said "its too hard to subvert that system, im off to knit jumpers instead".

just my rambling two cents ;)

Cj

[theprez98]

in defence of abby and her crew, they really did try to be above board. The hotel was notified that there would be a party and an effort was made to comply with hotel wishes.
Don't get me wrong, I am not attacking anyone's motives. As I stated, having never been to DEFCON, I don't know the way things went down, all I know is what I read here. My goal is the same as everyone else's, that people can have a legitimate party and have fun without outsiders ruining it. :wink:

[lil_freak]

Both parties were allowed to continue but got read the riot act and told that as LV Metro were on site there was no room for error. IDs must be checked.

I must add that those who were rude about having to show their id's to get into the parties should have understood and been a bit more friendly towards those of us who had to ask to see them. (Abby, I still bad about not being able to let your friend back to get her purse and id, but I was happy to find you so you could help her.)

Also, after the no-glass containers act was issued people should has also understood that we were following the rules that the hotel asked. If you had to toss your drink because you didn't want to step out of line to finish it or chug it there, then oh well. Thanks to the goons who brought me water so I could keep on yelling. :wink:

Does that mean we goons need to work out what to do? Yes. We need to come up with answers and help, but you guys need to help yourselves too. I agree with cj on this one.

[cjunky]

thanks for helping. not enough respect goes to the people who take on the boring task of tsanding outside parties keeping drunks out and checking IDS.

I used to be a bouncer so you're the unsung heroes of the con to me as long as you dont try to get in noids way, then i have to crush dismember and destroy.... but ill shed a tear doing it :)

theprez, my words werent criticism just an attempt to put some detail around bits some people know nothing about.

I like to think of myself as a party animal like any other? anyone disagree?

i have a dream.... of parties with unlimited booze. where buckets contain acceptable levels of spirit and people can drink until the sun comes up and the hangover fairies steal their shirts, badges and ultimately their pride.
Where guards offer you directions to your room and where pools dont close just when its getting fun to be in them.

maybe one day....

cj

[converge]

i have a dream.... I think I shed a tear over this one. I don't think I've ever seen the plight of the sober man so well displayed. Someday man .. stay strong. We will overcome.

[theprez98]

theprez, my words werent criticism just an attempt to put some detail around bits some people know nothing about.
Hey not a problem. I was only trying to preface my statement with the point that I am one of those people who don't know anything about it since I wasn't there. ;) I think a lot of issues come about because people don't necessarily know the whole story, so everyone's bit contributing to the whole (especially people behind the scenes so to speak) definitely helps to paint a better overall picture.

[[Syntax]]

Hopefully all will run smooth this year.. I think part of it was pure shock and unpreparedness as to what they were about to see when they exited the elevators.

Does anyone know if security had visited the Penthouse floor prior to the whole mess? or when they came looking for people involved in the can incident, was that the first time they saw a thousand people on the top floor, with loud music in 3 places and crowds loitering in the hallways?

It seemed like it started with a few, then multiplied as they called for backup.
Maybe after last years run-in they wont act so harshly if they encounter what looks to be similar chaos.

[cereal76]

Wotcha.
Im pretty sure that the guards didnt wander down the lower floors fucking with people. Why? cos I was one of 4 defcon staff with them. I turned up seconds after it happened and left with the staff.

So did I. I left the DC Groups meet and waited outside the room to hear what was going on with my friends inside. We knew it was serious when Priest showed up. A goon came out and said anyone with belongings in the room registered under the same name as this one should get their stuff out, asap. When I did, hotel security and LVM came into the room and the ban process began.

;86404']Does anyone know if security had visited the Penthouse floor prior to the whole mess? or when they came looking for people involved in the can incident, was that the first time they saw a thousand people on the top floor, with loud music in 3 places and crowds loitering in the hallways?
Yea, while they were in the process of banning us from the hotel, they made us cough up ID's. Twinvega was trying his damnedest to give as little information as possible. He lead the LVM on a wild goose chase to find his ID, which eventually led to the penthouse.