Too much to do

[alklloyd]

See a cool indie movie, Forum meet, HJ, all at the same time. Oh, wait...no forum meet? That sucked. Dateline NBC reporter ran right by me followed by dozens and I had to ask what was going on. I love this con.

Al
(Drunk and bantering)

[che]

Dateline NBC reporter ran right by me followed by dozens and I had to ask what was going on. I love this con.

Al
(Drunk and bantering)

And you did not take the time to tea-bag her? Al... you are slipping my friend! ;)

Was good seeing ya.

[goathead]

And you did not take the time to tea-bag her? Al... you are slipping my friend! ;)

Was good seeing ya.

Tea Bag for the win.

[converge]

See a cool indie movie, Forum meet, HJ, all at the same time. Oh, wait...no forum meet? That sucked. Dateline NBC reporter ran right by me followed by dozens and I had to ask what was going on. I love this con.

Sorry about the Forum Meet ... I didn't go. TheCotMan didn't go. Chris didn't go.

In addition to your list, I would like to add the LosT Challange (which I was engrained in), Black Ball, Hackerpimps party, Queercon, I-Hacked party ... shall I continue??

In brief discussion, the forum admins decided that next year we'll probably just stick to the TBBQ timeframe .. since most folks meet up then anyways, and it has become utterly IMPOSSIBLE to squeeze things in now. I didn't even realize that I missed the movie; I only got a chance to open up the program on Saturday after I had long missed a lot of cool talks that I wanted to stop in on.. specifially DT's ciscogate presentation.

[alklloyd]

Conv: So, it'll be the "TBBQ and Forum Meet"? Man, when I first attended DC10 I thought there was too much to do--it was 3 times worse this year.

Che: Yeah, she was cute but not particularly intelligent.

Cot: You know, people get drunk when they're *not* at defcon...

Al

[meee]

When I arrived at the location of the forum meet, the doors were locked and no one was there and the staff I queried had no idea what I was talking about.

[HighWiz]

When I arrived at the location of the forum meet, the doors were locked and no one was there and the staff I queried had no idea what I was talking about.

There were definitely too many other happenings on Friday night to attend the forum meet.

[Deviant Ollam]

next year will we be making the forum meet just simply part of the ToxicBBQ? i've heard discussion about that in the past and always supported the notion when it was raised.

[converge]

This year there was an equal counterpart of folks with good reason to keep a meet held on site. It lost, on so many levels. Unless Chris, TheCotMan, or DT have any reservations, I see no reason why we don't just get it on at the BBQ next year. Friday night is just packed, and meeting Forum members will lose.

I saw that a bit last year and didn't want to harass Grifter for a skybox because of that .. this year proving the theory.

All said.. I heard a LOT of folks say 'I showed up but it was locked' .. so the interest is still there. At this point, I challenge anyone still opposed to doing it at the BBQ to come up with a workable solution. You've got nearly a year to figure it out!

[HighWiz]

This year there was an equal counterpart of folks with good reason to keep a meet held on site. It lost, on so many levels. Unless Chris, TheCotMan, or DT have any reservations, I see no reason why we don't just get it on at the BBQ next year. Friday night is just packed, and meeting Forum members will lose.

I saw that a bit last year and didn't want to harass Grifter for a skybox because of that .. this year proving the theory.

All said.. I heard a LOT of folks say 'I showed up but it was locked' .. so the interest is still there. At this point, I challenge anyone still opposed to doing it at the BBQ to come up with a workable solution. You've got nearly a year to figure it out!

Why don't we just have the forum meet in Roamer's room?

[Nikita]

A LOT of people who work at or for DEFCON are unable to attend the forum meet if it is off site. I for one think that the BBQ is becoming it's own forum meet mostly for the veterans, which is great but there still needs to be an official meet at the show.

This is for the people who you want to encourage to become greater, less hidden and more contributing members of the forums. I am not trying to be rude when I say it but... "The whole world doesn't revolve around you." There are plenty of lurkers, noobs, no-posters but regular readers, lite-posters etc. IMHO, The most talkative or active forum members are not the ones who benefit the most from the forum meet.

It is my belief that one of the intentions of the meet was to get to know the forum on a more human level, less intimidating of posting etiquette, more about extending the friendships (potential of) with everyone having a common ground to stand on. Noobs need friends too and a friendly face they can walk up to at a crowded hacker pimps party and strike up some convo. Not to make it all sound like a prison style welcoming committee, there are many benefits to the forum meet to others outside the "Veteran-loudmouth-newbie-spacewasting-cockblocking-political talking-perverts" guild.

I am one of those people who work at DEFCON and have not had the chance yet to go. The fact that it was locked and or moved irritates me more than you know but what is done is done. If you are looking for more of a party atmosphere (TBBQ) at your forum meet than perhaps you need to PLAN the meet instead of trying to change the location. There is no reason why any of you can not do so, (so long as age is not a discrimination).

Once again, not trying to be mean, it is my belief we are shooting for an open community that doesn't exclude others and takes every oppertunity to expand. I often notice that sometimes we only think about ourselves, (ourselves being the most vocal) and not for those who either don't have a voice or don't use it, the new kids on the block, and the ones who haven't found us yet. If you make the official meet off site, you are leaving out a lot of people and that is not something that DEFCON is willing to do.

[Deviant Ollam]

A LOT of people who work at or for DEFCON are unable to attend the forum meet if it is off site. ... The most talkative or active forum members are not the ones who benefit the most from the forum meet.you bring up two very important, valid points that the rest of us so often forget. thank you for voicing those facts. maybe we need two forums meets... an unofficial one at the BBQ where someone just says "so who here is on the forums?" and folks raise hands and mingle, then the official one somewhere at con and at the hotel.

might i suggest that this second, official meetup take place either friday or saturday before the major parties take place? maybe even we could cobble together some food options and folks could hit a skybox intsead of getting dinner out. a nice sort of pre-party on friday evening could rock, say around 5:00 or 6:00 PM. does that work for those who are DefCon staff?

Thursday afternoon - Forum Meat
Friday early evening - Forum Meet

[Voltage Spike]

an unofficial one at the BBQ where someone just says "so who here is on the forums?" and folks raise hands and mingle, then the official one somewhere at con and at the hotel.

While I like the wordplay aspect, I worry that having two Meets (even if one of them is considered "unofficial" and the other is as official as anything else at DefCon) will hurt the attendance of one or both events.

The forum badges are sufficient for TBBQ ad-hoc meetings, but some of those I spoke to believed that the forum badges were "out". Perhaps we should start marketing templates and the like as the next Con approaches?

[HighWiz]

The forum badges are sufficient for TBBQ ad-hoc meetings, but some of those I spoke to believed that the forum badges were "out". Perhaps we should start marketing templates and the like as the next Con approaches?

I view them as much more than forum badges, I wish everyone had them. It makes it very easy to know peoples handles.

There were people who didn't recognize me until they saw my badge.

[converge]

Nikita: Please don't take any of this for more than face value of the argument at hand.

A LOT of people who work at or for DEFCON are unable to attend the forum meet if it is off site. I've been an advocate of this since inception (following Nulltone's lead in prior discussions), with the initial hurdle of making it Thursday or early hours Friday was that most folks caravan'ing in did get in until Friday morning, particularly deathrace and cannonball. Every year folks have tried to push it sooner and it always comes down to those two things:

1) not everyone is in town yet
2) people working cannot attend (particularly reg/store ninjas in the past)

I for one think that the BBQ is becoming it's own forum meet mostly for the veterans, which is great but there still needs to be an official meet at the show. Possibly, but 'mostly for veterans' is an incorrect evaluation. The first TBBQ was practically a translation of forum and irc members, sans *most* goons. The number of goon attendees have grown, but many still get left out. There has been no solution to this, due to the nature of the BBQ .. and thoughts of 'bringing the mountain to them' just don't pan out when you follow the logistics of dealing with the hotel and keeping the event true to its purpose. I digress, but this year I made my way through a sea of people *I did not know*, just to catch a few seconds with the 50 or so folks I do know.

To be blatently honest, seeing the TBBQ grow to such a HUGE event makes me less than pleased and I regularly question its direction .. but the undertone of excitement from tbbq veterans and new attendees alike simply kills my ability to fight or diminish the path it is on. To me that excitement is exemplary of an open-armed community.

This is for the people who you want to encourage to become greater, less hidden and more contributing members of the forums. I am not trying to be rude when I say it but... "The whole world doesn't revolve around you." There are plenty of lurkers, noobs, no-posters but regular readers, lite-posters etc. IMHO, The most talkative or active forum members are not the ones who benefit the most from the forum meet. Understood and not something to lose sight of. That said, it doesn't change the fact that there essentially was no Forum Meet this year .. for those that expected to have one on Friday (those that planned on meeting others at the BBQ did so with success).

I am definitely at fault for not showing up at startup and hunting down someone to unlock the room. To my knowledge there was a set room close enough to talks and related events that this would not have been an issue... but by the time I found out it was far too late. I, among most others, were distracted by the other 10+ other things going on at that exact time.

This may be a timing issue where the meet simply needs to compete with talks and contests instead of parties, B&W, (contests actually.. since I was in the tail end of a full day participating in LosT's cool event), Hacker Jeopardy, Vegas events et al. This issue seems to grow yearly and will likely only become a greater logistical issue next year. More people, doing more things, all at once.

It may be a leadership issue with Forum regulars taking less interest in the meet and Forum Admins/Mods needing their asses kicked to actually drive the event. With that said, a private thread on admin and moderator duties at Defcon may be needed; since most of us are either not working Defcon, or otherwise ARE working Defcon but in competing capacities to being Forum liaisons.

I also place the burden on attendees. Those that showed up need only hang a sign on the door saying.. 'Um, this is fucked so meet us in the contest area near the table with skulls' or something to that extent. Defcon is not a pony show.. and the last thing anyone wants is a spoonfeeding-hug session for people that aren't willing to put a foot forward. I'm not talking about evil isolationist 1337ism, I'm talking about a _basic life skill_ ... even for us shy folks.

DC10 had its forum meet at a table by the pool at Alexis, with time and space dictated by forum members.. some of whom actually knew each other but many of whom didn't. I was one of the ones that knew *no one*, save for the ability to hunt down octalpus and her bright hair color. I had a blast that year meeting Medic, AlxRogan, Dataworm, and others that crowded around the table. I met Nummish, Digi, Datashark, and others around the blue table in the CTF room where I simply walked up and asked if I could lurk around the team to try and learn stuff.., and Kaigoth by randomly hopping on a Wardriving death team together. I first met Grifter while chilling the hall waiting for pre-reg, only to be swatted out of the hall by Ms Evil in an attempt to clear the fire hazard we created, and later to have my first run-in with TW as the first person to get badged at DC10 and him handing it to me at the reg-granny helm. I know them now on various levels, but certainly did not then. It wasn't because DT had a special room for me to meet people, have them coddle me and assure I get to know Defcon the way I have come to appreciate it; I just did because I wanted to and did my damned best to involve myself with things that interested me. *note: I am NOT an outgoing, talkative person unless considerably drunked.

The fact that Nulltone, Grifter, and others have historically been able to provide a dedicated room for the Forum Meet has been noble and great, but certainly doesn't make that a requirement by any means and arguably doesn't make the meet any better. My favorite Forum Meet was the adhoc one out by the pool at DC10 by far ... otherwise its just people standing/sitting in an empty room.

So I can understand the value of the meet, but strongly disagree that it is a required function that must be there for those that don't feel comfortable chatting with others. It is a fun function that should be there and should be there when the interested members deem it so. With that I lay the responsibility of when and where the meet happens on those that take the most stake in it; the Forum Members. In my prior post I didn't say 'this is the way it is' .. I issued a challange to those that want an official Meet on Friday.. solve the problem, or at least throw possibilities out there. There is nearly a year to do this.

It is my belief that one of the intentions of the meet was to get to know the forum on a more human level, less intimidating of posting etiquette That is really only a modern interpretation/twist on the event. It was a meetup by forum members and irc chatters, for us. It grew, through and out of the flaming years. It was never about making quiet people feel better, but about a common location to meet those that you posted/chatted with throughout the year prior.

I'm also growing tired of the 'old boys club' stigma that people keep pushing at the Forums. If you want to think that, fine. Otherwise consider that it is complete utter bullshit and move on. There was a period of the Forums where many people were flamed to no end and it grew tiring for everyone involved. Today we have semi-strict etiquette for posting because nobody wanted that. As much as we joke about it, Mods didn't want to spend their alottment on the Forums moving shit posts around and banning users. Members did not want to sift through pages of flame threads to find the one or two reasons why they showed up in the first place. We ask a little from all sides to mediate a place where people want to read. If this is a problem, it would be *way* more simple to revert to a completely no-holds-barred forum (ask TheCotMan and the countless effort he's put into this).. but be warned.. we've travelled that road. Also consider the medium. This is not a mailing list. This is not an IRC channel. This is a Forum. Maintenance is not the same apple. Then consider scope .. this is the Defcon Forums .. not #politxl-foodfight, not forums.learnmesomelinux.com.

But aside from my prior rant, there exists a portion of the forums that (legality and spam barring), eliminates this etiquette. People have been invited to post pretty much whatever they want and some folks have. Be warned that those ready to flame you for stupid shit are on even ground. ... and if that doesn't suit the visitor there is an over-half-a-decade long running IRC channel that remains no holds barred.

If you are looking for more of a party atmosphere (TBBQ) at your forum meet than perhaps you need to PLAN the meet instead of trying to change the location. There is no reason why any of you can not do so This is what it boils down to. People not only need to step up and say when they want to attend, but they need to involve themselves with making it happen. Every year folks want to do *something* other than sit around doing nothing. But no one has taken up reigns on food, drinks, games, or anything that would liven the event. All it takes is someone to do it, instead of talk. Ironically the ToxicBBQ was the same, but people have taken a vested interest in showing up and making it rock. The Forum Meet simply needs the same investment.

Once again, not trying to be mean, it is my belief we are shooting for an open community that doesn't exclude others and takes every oppertunity to expand. I often notice that sometimes we only think about ourselves, (ourselves being the most vocal) and not for those who either don't have a voice or don't use it, the new kids on the block, and the ones who haven't found us yet. I don't believe that an open community is something that needs to be forged.. Defcon IS that open community and has been since I showed my stank as up. I am *no one*. I post text on a php-driven board and frequently keep tabs on irc like I have for the past decade. I meet people, people meet me. Some people think I'm an asshole, some people think I'm fun to hang around for some derranged reason or another, but like everyone else around here it is simply a matter of social interaction for socially awkward people. It either works or doesn't, and certainly isn't something that can be forced for everyone that wants to hop in the pool.

Personally, I don't attend Defcon to think and speak for others. I attend to be in the company of a growing number of friends and stand in awe of the people that put my skillset to shame. I attend to see others 'newb' or old guard speak with or without words, and think in ways that my aging brain probably never will. The day I lose that spark is the day I lay my yearly Vegas trek to rest indefinitely.

I can refer to my prior paragraph of my Defcon summary, but there is a certain point where the argument crumbles under its own weight. I'm not a parent, teacher, organization, or otherwise vested in the assuring the experience of anyone but my own. Sorry... I guess that personally does break down into selfishness.

If you make the official meet off site, you are leaving out a lot of people and that is not something that DEFCON is willing to do. This is something that everyone pushing for the event to be at the TBBQ needs to take to heart. The issue makes its rounds every year. I strongly believe that it isn't because our friends seek to exclude others, but because of convenience in a growing mire of things to be involved with. Thursday was chosen for the TBBQ for a reason, not to exclude goons or people showing up Friday... but simply to logistically make things work.

It personally bums me out that Noid and his staff, you and the others staffing reg/store can't make it; since it was particularly designed to be an event that you and others like you could enjoy considerably.


When cast call came up this past year, 1/3 of voters said the didn't care (me included, possibly not helping matters), 1/3 said TBBQ, and 1/3 said Friday night, with no solid proposals for anything alternative. I tried to make sure that space was secured for both sides of the attendance wheel since I knew where the TBBQ side was coming from, but knew that others should have the opportunity of an at-con event. If people build a different model for this next year it could change the face of the Forum Meet, for better or worse. Now is not too early to start that planning.

In a long-ass answer, the direction of the Meet is not being pushed by any of the Admins or Mods, but by the Members that make up the Forum Meet; it is shifting to Thursday at the TBBQ because that is where the majority of active Forum Members have grown to meet. People wanting this to return within the conference need to step up and not just state the obvious challenges, but propose and drive solutions. PM me or other admins/mods, start and perpetuate thread discussion and polling for this to define what people on the Forums want, or completely rip apart everything I just typed in here. Start a contest to harass Tommee to finally run with his Talent Show. I'm particularly asking this of the 'newbs'. Think. Do!

I apologize to all involved for not assuring the basic execution of this year's meet as I responsibly should have. This upcoming year I will make up for it.

[che]

I personally like meeting up with folks at the TBBQ.. that is about the only time I get to socialize for extended periods of time during the evening (other than after goon shift). However, why does it have to be a forum meet, unofficial or otherwise? I see no reason why folks can't just wear their avatar badges to the toxic bbq to identify each other, hang out, eat, and drink. Then if possible there be a *forum meet* at the Riv so the folks can meet up onsite?

[TheCotMan]

Converge is trying to beat my long post record. I wonder if he succeeded?

I work during the year and volunteer time here. When I attend Defcon, it is to have fun, and I don't like limiting my options by signing up to organize things at Defcon. I have respect for Goons and people that actually work at Defcon so that I can have fun. When I am at Defcon, I wear a Human badge, and that is all I am. :-)

Drinking and organizing don't mix-- at least for me, but your mileage may vary.
If I drank before organizing, there probably wouldn't be much organization.

I did attend the TBBQ, and I don't think I ever committed to being at the Forum meet. The best answer I gave was, "maybe."

This year I had a guest (boombox) visiting me from a far away place, and was in a presentation with him around the time of the forum meet.

High Wizard asked me if I planned to attend a specific event 2 or 3 years ago, and I said that I don't plan very much at Defcon. I have a few, "must-do," items but everything else is considered optional and I just let things happen. I do come up with tentative plans so that if nothing else comes up, I can go do something I enjoy, but these tentative plans are only default, and not committed as must-do events. If I recall correctly, he said that he did something similar.

Last year, my must-do included: Getting a key to the hotel room, TBBQ-PrePlan, TBBQ, LP-Trip, and the Forum Meet. I knew about other options, but didn't make other plans. This allowed me to attend SushiCon as a last-minute suggestion/invite from mfreeck and converge. Making the decision to visit SushiCon precluded me from going out to dinner with Roamer and several other people at the same time. (Sorry roamer.)

In agreement with converge, it is up to the people that care about an event to make it happen and generate interest. I've been to two forum meets, and frankly, there are many, far more interesting things at defcon than sitting in a room to identify yourself in a one-cycle round-robin bore-fest. If I wasn't with my guest, I'd probably have shown up to the Forum Meet like I did last year, out of obligation, or necessary evil.

As for the Forum meet planning, check out the forum on the Forum meet and you will see converge's comment about us giving the task of organizing it to whoever showed any interest.

So, here I'll suggest it again after converge asked for this, this year. Anyone that actually cares about the Forum meet want to plan it for next year? I have built a forum for it along with all of the other forums that appeared this year. (They are all hidden from view until Defcon 16 is officially announced or discussed by DT or November/December-- whichever comes first.)

As for the, "Old Boys Network," I don't see it. Do people consider me part of the, "Old Boys Network?" Crazy. I joined the forums only 3 years ago, and after about 1 year became a Mod, then an Admin. I wasn't part of any political system or, "old boy network." Am I now? No. After 3 years of hanging out with a few people, a few people recognize me. Maybe I am the token, "newish guy," they keep around to prove there really isn't an, "old boy network." Dammit. I wish I could learn the secret password, secret handshake and could get one of those uber-cool, k-rad decoder rings. I think I am accepted by many because I don't try to be something I am not, and people seem to like me-- even though I tell really unfunny jokes.

Yes, I've attended several Defcon events, but spent the first 5 visits doing very little socializing-- most of the people I met were more clueless than me, while pretending they knew more than they actually did. Listening to these blow-hard go on and on about something they didn't know was entertaining for a few minutes, but gets old really fast. It is really hard to be in an old-boy network when you don't network. ;-)

At Defcon there really isn't, "too much to do," but we have many decisions to make on what we may choose to do. Of all the things to complain about, this is a problem I can grow to enjoy. It is like complaining about an amusement park that has too many fun rides-- that is the kind of problem I'd like to see more of, in my life. :-)

As for removing rules. We could do that, but based on user interest, it seems that most people here don't want a free-for-all. We have the "All_Social" usergroup that people could join to post in "/dev/random" and new users are auto-subscribed to be part of "All-Social" -- however, we have more people unsubscribing from that forum than we have older accounts choosing to subscribe to it. /dev/random is the least user restrictive. I think the rules there are as simple as:
1) No Spam
2) Nothing illegal
3) No Politics or Religion

If #3 were removed that would be more of a free-for-all than the Defcon forums have ever been! Peopel can even flame each other there, and ask for technical support, and more, but what do we see in this space? Very little posting. Over 60% of the threads in that forum were moved there from other forums! People post much more content in the other spaces. Even forums for planning several events or contests have more activity than /dev/random. If people really wanted a more open forum, I would expect to see more utilization of that space.

We continue to experiment on the forums. We've tried to create a balance between what people want from the Defcon forums, and what moderators are willing and able to support. We often have threads where we ask people for new ideas to try out with the forums. If you have suggestions, why not offer them up? Over half the things we have added to the forums have come from non-mods. :-)

[Nikita]

That is all too much to respond to at the moment, i am deep within post con migraine territory. (Yes, really) But I wanted to make one thing clear, in NO WAY was I suggesting rules change or that there was something wrong with the rules, I love the forums the way it is. Converge I think did try to beat out Cot with that RE: :-)

I also thought he brought up a lot of great points and he took it a little bit further then my short post. I agree with him a lot on many of the ideas he suggested. I think we are all in agreement that moving forward we need to make the forum meet less board room and more social and this requires planning. Perhaps and I don't mean to infringe on anyone else's territory but perhaps we can incorporate some of the aspects of "the hackerspace" or even team up with them and DCGroups to create a lounge atmosphere, some food, some non alcoholic drinks? There are countless ideas that stream through my head and maybe we should all dump them out and scratch off the ones we hate and narrow the rest down from there. I would also like to reiterate my thoughts on being an open community that doesn't exclude others and takes every opportunity to expand. Converges post is a prime example of what I mean by that. DEFCON is that community and I liked Jackalopes quote this year that said something to the like that "Remember DEFCON is YOUR con it is what you make it. " I dont recall the exact quote, i think I'm close. I thought she was very on point.

Ok, Back to WoWcrack......