black badge protocol

[Deviant Ollam]

maybe someone can clear up a question that i have. how are black badge holders let into defcon? it's been years now that i've had a black badge, but i've never needed to use it because i've either been a blue or red badge holder each time. that will be the case again this year, but i'd like to be able to use my black badge as a way to get someone else in, if that's allowed.

first question: does it work that way at all? are black badges in any way transferable if they're not being used by the person who originally won them?

second question: does the person using it walk around with the older-style defcon badge (albeit, in black) and does this cause confusion for the security goons (many of whom may be younger volunteers who never even saw the older-styles of DC badges)?

my black badge was from DC-12... the year that the badges featured a fatal flaw:

http://deviating.net/defcon_12/badge_trouble.jpg

the very top of the badge where the lanyard comes in was exceedingly thin and broke easily. my black badge actually has cracks and shows weakness there and all it's ever done is hang on my bedpost with other con stuff. i would be very worried about giving my badge to someone else for her to get into DC15, and i know she'd feel pretty bad if it broke and got lost.

i heard once that there is a master list of all black badge holders which can allow them to register and procure a regular "human" badge at no cost. is this real or just a myth? this option would appeal to me a great deal, due to the badge concerns i expressed above.

or, if i can't transfer my badge at all, then we'll just have to figure something else out. hope to learn from someone in the know.

[hackajar]

I was just told to find someone with a red shirt on Thursday and they would get me squared away.

[octalpus]

Having worked reg, the answer has changed over the years, but the last official answer was that you wear your black badge in, it gets you in where you should be, you no longer get a human badge in return.

I personally hold a few black badges, one of which is a nice sturdy metal one. This, of course, is the one I lost in my hasty exodus from Texas. The ones I have left are held together by duct tape, as pretty much all of the badges that weren't metal had some pretty bad failure points (and the metal one is from the year of green necks.... aren't we glad we keep the lanyards from other years?).

I'd love to see a better solution, but I also realise that the number of black badge holders (4 years times a fuckton of contests) is growing rapidly. Is it really feasible to exchange these for current human badges? Probably not. Some of the "makeshift" badges that float around when supplies run low may be reasonable though, aye?

[HighWiz]

my black badge was from DC-12... the year that the badges featured a fatal flaw:



the very top of the badge where the lanyard comes in was exceedingly thin and broke easily. my black badge actually has cracks and shows weakness there and all it's ever done is hang on my bedpost with other con stuff. i would be very worried about giving my badge to someone else for her to get into DC15, and i know she'd feel pretty bad if it broke and got lost.


A good way to remedy that badge defect was to slide the lanyard through the opening and then loop the top back in between both halves. If the top is already cracked just put some tape around the area and use the above method.

[ck3k]

I always wanted to know what happens if my Black badge is destroyed? I am assuming I am just shit out of luck. Either way, I am always extra careful with the stupid thing, as the Defcon 13 badge has the fatal flaw of shattering.

Second thing I was curious about is, how can the black badge holder get a human badge? Last year I lost out on the cool badge because they ran out....I am guessing the same thing will happen this year (buy more badges?). Is there maybe a way I can buy a badge at a discount?

[Thorn]

Dammit. All my cool friends have a Black Badge... I feel left out. <sniff>

Second thing I was curious about is, how can the black badge holder get a human badge? Last year I lost out on the cool badge because they ran out....I am guessing the same thing will happen this year (buy more badges?). Is there maybe a way I can buy a badge at a discount?ck, if you haven't been able to get a Human Badge by the end of DC, come find me. I may have an extra this year.

[HighWiz]

Dammit. All my cool friends have a Black Badge... I feel left out. <sniff>


So what are you willing to do to get a black badge?

[Thorn]

So what are you willing to do to get a black badge?Not that!
(Whatever it is you have in mind. ) :biggrin:

[HighWiz]

Not that!
(Whatever it is you have in mind. ) :biggrin:

I was going to say, "Make love to your wife"... But I see now that, you're just not into doing that.

[theprez98]

I'll be happy with a badge of any color.

[licutis]

So what are you willing to do to get a black badge?

Ill let you have my wife for a night, at least ill pay the hooker $10 extra to say that if it makes you happy. And by night i mean hour....

[HighWiz]

Ill let you have my wife for a night, at least ill pay the hooker $10 extra to say that if it makes you happy. And by night i mean hour....

I said to Thorn "What would you do for a Black Badge".... So that would mean him having sex with his wife.... It was a private joke.

And to clarify, it would disgust me to have sex with your wife or any woman for that matter.

[ck3k]

Dammit. All my cool friends have a Black Badge... I feel left out. <sniff>

ck, if you haven't been able to get a Human Badge by the end of DC, come find me. I may have an extra this year.

You will get one soon enough :)

Awesome, Thanks, let me know! I know they are going to run out....and I am sure we can barter some nifty stuff for it, I don't want to see you leave empty handed.

[licutis]

I said to Thorn "What would you do for a Black Badge".... So that would mean him having sex with his wife.... It was a private joke.

And to clarify, it would disgust me to have sex with your wife or any woman for that matter.

I find your lack of humor disturbing.....

[HighWiz]

I find your lack of humor disturbing.....

Heh... Yea, I'm not suppose to flame people... So I'll just let things drop.

[theprez98]

So what are you willing to do to get a black badge?
This *does* sound like a promising contest for next year. :wink:

[SniperX]

Last year I lost out on the cool badge because they ran out....I am guessing the same thing will happen this year (buy more badges?).

Yes! Dear God pleaseeee, if anyone in charge of procuring the badges, pleaseeee do your best to make plenty. It really adds a sour taste to the trip (maybe i'm shallow) when you pay $80-$100 to get in and you arn't even given an official badge, but a make-shift crappy replacement. Especially when there is so much talk about how "cool" the badges are and all of the fun things people were doing with them (last year).

Last year I registered at 10am Saturday morning and they were already out of the official badge. And the lady at the registration booth commented on how they actually ran out earlier the previous day (Friday).

DONT BE CHEAP! I know it's expensive to throw this con but skimping here is just a constant reminder of the planners being cheap. Over pay by $200-1000. That's just a couple people, and everyone will have their souvenir.

[/rant>

[Dark Tangent]

Yes, it sucks for more than just you.

The costs of the badge are way up this year, and you will understand when you see them, but we also made a bunch more. The secret would be to run out and have no waste at the end.

Anyway, I ordered more badges this year! We can only wait and see what happens.

Yes! Dear God pleaseeee, if anyone in charge of procuring the badges, pleaseeee do your best to make plenty. It really adds a sour taste to the trip (maybe i'm shallow) when you pay $80-$100 to get in and you arn't even given an official badge, but a make-shift crappy replacement. Especially when there is so much talk about how "cool" the badges are and all of the fun things people were doing with them (last year).

Last year I registered at 10am Saturday morning and they were already out of the official badge. And the lady at the registration booth commented on how they actually ran out earlier the previous day (Friday).

DONT BE CHEAP! I know it's expensive to throw this con but skimping here is just a constant reminder of the planners being cheap. Over pay by $200-1000. That's just a couple people, and everyone will have their souvenir.

[/rant>

[octalpus]

Yes! Dear God pleaseeee, if anyone in charge of procuring the badges, pleaseeee do your best to make plenty. It really adds a sour taste to the trip (maybe i'm shallow) when you pay $80-$100 to get in and you arn't even given an official badge, but a make-shift crappy replacement. Especially when there is so much talk about how "cool" the badges are and all of the fun things people were doing with them (last year).

Last year I registered at 10am Saturday morning and they were already out of the official badge. And the lady at the registration booth commented on how they actually ran out earlier the previous day (Friday).

DONT BE CHEAP! I know it's expensive to throw this con but skimping here is just a constant reminder of the planners being cheap. Over pay by $200-1000. That's just a couple people, and everyone will have their souvenir.

[/rant>

The instructions for registration specifically say it's on a first come, first served basis. There is no guarantee of space or badges being available. While it would be nice for everyone to get a cool badge, when you come in that late, you're not even guaranteed to get in. Adjustments are made each year based on prior years' attendance, but we can only grow so fast. My $.02? Be happy you got in at all and try to get there earlier! You miss so much when you don't come til Saturday. Registration opens Thursday, folks!

[octalpus]

Yes, it sucks for more than just you.

The costs of the badge are way up this year, and you will understand when you see them, but we also made a bunch more. The secret would be to run out and have no waste at the end.

Anyway, I ordered more badges this year! We can only wait and see what happens.

Jeff beat me to it! Can't wait to see what you've got cooked up this year!

[hevnsnt]

me either ;)

[kallahar]

So it looks like the policy was to have black badge holders bring their badge to reg where they would exchange their black badge for a regular human badge. Their name is put on theirs, and on sunday they can come by reg and get their black badge back. That way people couldn't get dozens of human badges with one black badge.

I think it worked fairly well, but I know a few people forgot their badges and left vegas without them...

[LosT]

Yes, I heard that this was the official protocol as well...

LosT

[TechnoWeenie]

Yes, I heard that this was the official protocol as well...

LosT

Confirmed.. this is what I did. Worked rather well. 4 folks did not get back on time to Reg to pick up thier black badges. I have kept them, and contacted the two I had email information on, and posted here for the other two.

I believe we will continue this process. Worked.

TW

[ck3k]

This worked great for me, I was able to check it in, get my nifty badge and then check it out on Sunday. I think that taking some email information would rock, because I would hate to lose the little thing. I prefer this to just hoping they don't run out of badges, speaking of that I need to go find a defcon 14 badge on ebay :P or...does anyone have a spare?

[bloofar]

Yes, it sucks for more than just you.

The costs of the badge are way up this year, and you will understand when you see them, but we also made a bunch more. The secret would be to run out and have no waste at the end.

Anyway, I ordered more badges this year! We can only wait and see what happens.

So has anybody looked at the percentage increase in attendance over the last, say, 8 years?

It seems that this has been a recurring problem. It's not just that I'm salty over missing out on getting an electronic badge (got there Friday morning. Would have been there Thursday but I injured my back in a pretty unpleasant fashion and spent most of Thursday immobile and waiting to see the Dr -- wait, maybe i am salty ;) ) but I know this happened last year and I know it happened at least once in the few years before that. In fact, in the last 5 years that I've been coming to DC, it seems that we have run out of the "good" badges more often than not.

Especially with this years badge, I think having a surplus would be a good thing. At the end of the con, auction them off to the people who have been there all weekend and donate the money to the EFF. I had a lot of cool hacks in mind for the badge (friend came over to visit Thursday night and brought one) and I would have been happy to have 2. [Scrolling Access Point finder, 2-way WiFi communicator using morse code for input using 2 of the pads in a paddle configuration, signal strength reader, etc]

What is the fear with ordering too many badges? DefCon seems to be growing at an exponential rate (for better or for worse). You occasionally see previous year's t-shirts for sale; why not previous years badges if it came to that (though i really doubt it would). Are we really that afraid of people buying them on ebay and becoming dc posers? It happens anyway. Check out this mess of instant poser-dom: http://cgi.ebay.com/Defcon-badge-Collectors-Wet-Dream-7-w-extras_W0QQitemZ200139367140QQihZ010QQcategoryZ294 QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

*shrug*

[bigezy]

Confirmed.. this is what I did. Worked rather well. 4 folks did not get back on time to Reg to pick up thier black badges. I have kept them, and contacted the two I had email information on, and posted here for the other two.

I believe we will continue this process. Worked.

TW

While I would agree with you that the process "worked" from your perspective. I disagree that this process should remain permanent. For the following reason: I busted my ass to get the black badge that I have, and during the one weekend that having this badge would really mean something. I have to surrender it to get into Defcon. What is the point? Shouldn't previous black badge winners be honored? If this werent true, why do we get in free for life?

I know that Defcon has to do something to keep from people using the badge over and over to get friends in. But the process that was used this year was totally a pile of steaming dog shit.

I had to give my real name and I had to show ID in order to get my badge back. What is the point of that? Defcon is supposed to be an anonymous conference. But, the people that have black badges need to leave thier real names at the door if they want to get in for free.

And the second shitty thing about this is that the one weekend where I can hang out with poeple that understand what a black badge means, I get shafted again.

Sure this is a great way for you to keep people in line. And it is probably perfect for you TW. It sucks for the black badge holder.

When you are making badges next year, how about making a special badge for past contest winners?

And a general FUCK YOU to defcon for making me give up my real name. I got a chance to see other peoples real names when you wrote mine on the list. I would think the liability of a list like that getting out would be extreme.

[Deviant Ollam]

I busted my ass to get the black badge that I have, and during the one weekend that having this badge would really mean something. I have to surrender it to get into Defcon. What is the point? Shouldn't previous black badge winners be honored? If this werent true, why do we get in free for life?i think that being a black badge holder involves both honor and privilege. you get your "honor" if that's the reason you go for the contests when you are invited up on stage during the closing and get presented the black badge. from that point on, having the privilege to attend DefCon for free kicks serious ass in my book.

But the process that was used this year was totally a pile of steaming dog shit.being a bit harsh, aren't you? the organizers were responding to the requests made by the majority of black badge holders... we wanted a shot at getting a DC15 super-kickass badge before they ran out. my understanding is that the system that was put in place wasn't mandatory... you would have been free, would you not, to just walk around with your old black badge instead of a current style one.

I had to give my real name and I had to show ID in order to get my badge back.now that certainly is a pretty poor system, i think. i would suspect that many people here would disagree with that point and call for a revision in the future. something that involves simply an email address or perhaps some sort of claim ticket coupled with a passphrase would be far superior to compromising folks' identities.

the one weekend where I can hang out with poeple that understand what a black badge means, I get shafted again.see... this is where your argument goes a bit off the rails for me. the kind of friends i hang with at defcon don't care whether i'm wearing my black badge, my blue badge, my red one, etc. why not just ask for contest winners to get a t-shirt that says "i am super-leet and pwned a bunch of people at a defcon long ago, aren't i something? i deserve free drinks and scenewhores should line up to service me."

I got a chance to see other peoples real names when you wrote mine on the list. I would think the liability of a list like that getting out would be extreme.again, i'm 100% with you there. i think that this sort of management system was a terrible way to implement the "temporary badge swap" that i do actually like.

[ck3k]

I think there is a valid point to the above discussion. I did have to show my id to turn in and retrieve my badge. I trust TW and the goons, however accidents do happen, and I would not want to have a list like that fall into the wrong hands. I don't care what badge I am wearing, some cases I would rather just blend in with the rest of the "humans" ;)

I mean, you could just generate a master list (using screennames/emails/gpg) and give us a fresh black badge every year :P

[LosT]

Except I have sentimental attachment to my black badges ... :)

LosT

[bigezy]

[QUOTE=Deviant Ollam;89180]
being a bit harsh, aren't you? the organizers were responding to the requests made by the majority of black badge holders... we wanted a shot at getting a DC15 super-kickass badge before they ran out. my understanding is that the system that was put in place wasn't mandatory... you would have been free, would you not, to just walk around with your old black badge instead of a current style one.


see... this is where your argument goes a bit off the rails for me. the kind of friends i hang with at defcon don't care whether i'm wearing my black badge, my blue badge, my red one, etc. why not just ask for contest winners to get a t-shirt that says "i am super-leet and pwned a bunch of people at a defcon long ago, aren't i something? i deserve free drinks and scenewhores should line up to service me."

QUOTE]

I was told when I checked in that I would need to either pay for a badge or give up my black badge. I had to make a decision to trust TW or pay the 100 bucks. Using the black badge was not an option presented to me.

On the other thing. Overall it didn't matter to me that much either, except for times like what happened to Bozilla. Mentant, and myself at DC 14. We were watching some folks participating in the wireless contest. And the guy who was competing told us "If you think you can do better why don't you compete" Bobzilla held up his black badge, and the guy turned his head down and walked away.

You can not have moments like that with your badge locked in the back.


I am a realist. If I want to drink I have money. As far as getting laid, I am middle aged fat and ugly, no black piece of plastic is going to help me overcome any of those handicaps.

[kallahar]

Maybe just a simple "claim ticket" would work. Get a bunch of tags, write pairs of numbers on them, #1 is attached to the badge, you keep #2. To retrieve the badge the two numbers have to match. Bad news if your chit gets stolen, or if someone forges one, but the odds of that are relatively low I think.

Next year I plan on putting a dog tag attached to my black badge that has all my contact info, just in case it gets left/misplaced/etc.

Kallahar

[LosT]

Why don't we just use a form of RFID...oh right...forget that...

LosT

[rabbi]

It's not just that I'm salty over missing out on getting an electronic badge (got there Friday morning. Would have been there Thursday but I injured my back in a pretty unpleasant fashion and spent most of Thursday immobile and waiting to see the Dr -- wait, maybe i am salty ;)

Dude, I'm sympathetic to the back problems thing -- that's why I wound up getting to DEFCON registration too late to get anything but a paper badge, despite having been in Las Vegas since the day before Black hat (my talked was on Day 1). However, if you've got all these great ideas for badge hacks, why couldn't you figure out a way to get a normal badge? Social engineering is always the easiest part of any hack.

I started with a paper badge, traded that one of the regular badges that had some burnt-out LEDs, traded that for a working badge, prototyped our hack on that, and then implemented the final version on a press badge that I managed to get despite not being press (nor seriously claiming to be. Favors were traded. No I don't want to talk about it.)

... and then my team won the badge hacking contest, having started with laminated paper badges.

Yes, it sucks that not everyone gets a cool badge -- but at $27 a pop, I can understand why DT doesn't want to end up with a few hundred of these things sitting in a box in his basement. My point is, though, that if you really want a good badge, and can't make it to register for whatever reason until they're gone, there's 6000+ people walking around with the badges you want. Find someone willing to swap with you. It's not that hard.

(Now, a really slick solution would be to find a circuit board maker who can fab them on the fly, or with a few hours lead-time, and willing to do so on-site. A pre-order of 7K badges, with small batches of a few hundred as supplies start to diminish, would solve the problem. Whether such an outfit exists, though, or if the equipment to do so is portable enough, I am not sure.)

[TechnoWeenie]

While I would agree with you that the process "worked" from your perspective. I disagree that this process should remain permanent. For the following reason: I busted my ass to get the black badge that I have, and during the one weekend that having this badge would really mean something. I have to surrender it to get into Defcon. What is the point? Shouldn't previous black badge winners be honored? If this werent true, why do we get in free for life?

I know that Defcon has to do something to keep from people using the badge over and over to get friends in. But the process that was used this year was totally a pile of steaming dog shit.

I had to give my real name and I had to show ID in order to get my badge back. What is the point of that? Defcon is supposed to be an anonymous conference. But, the people that have black badges need to leave thier real names at the door if they want to get in for free.

And the second shitty thing about this is that the one weekend where I can hang out with poeple that understand what a black badge means, I get shafted again.

Sure this is a great way for you to keep people in line. And it is probably perfect for you TW. It sucks for the black badge holder.

When you are making badges next year, how about making a special badge for past contest winners?

And a general FUCK YOU to defcon for making me give up my real name. I got a chance to see other peoples real names when you wrote mine on the list. I would think the liability of a list like that getting out would be extreme.


uh.. ok, remind me next year when you come to REG.

As for names.. I took First name Last initial, not associated with handles\nicks.. just numbers so I was giving back the same badge given. That so bad? You got to get the regular human badge this year, previous years.. nothing. So is that so bad? Yes it is not the BEST way to do this... and I can and will work on making it better. Maybe I am still tired and cranky from working so hard to insure everyone enjoyed Defcon... that a general "fuck you" to defcon for this.. seems childish.

We can discuss this more next year at registration...

TW

[russ]

Hang in there, TW. I think Reg worked like a charm this year.

uh.. ok, remind me next year when you come to REG.

As for names.. I took First name Last initial, not associated with handles\nicks.. just numbers so I was giving back the same badge given. That so bad? You got to get the regular human badge this year, previous years.. nothing. So is that so bad? Yes it is not the BEST way to do this... and I can and will work on making it better. Maybe I am still tired and cranky from working so hard to insure everyone enjoyed Defcon... that a general "fuck you" to defcon for this.. seems childish.

We can discuss this more next year at registration...

TW

[HighWiz]

Blah, don't go to a claim ticket system. From what I saw, the system worked fine this year. I saw people turn their black badges in and pick them up.

And really, who the fuck cares if you can walk around with your black badge or not? I have mine, and don't feel the need to flaunt that shit like I'm an uber-leet haxor dude (even though the badge says it). Seriously, get over the fucking elitism of it all. The older I get the more I realize that it's all just stupid bullshit. And wow Bigezy, you were able to make a guy hang his head in shame, I guess that makes you feel manly or something, do you want a cookie?

I got an idea, if you don't want your name on "a list", then how bout you just pony up the money for DefCon. Honestly, it's such a small price to pay for a chance to hangout with your friends and have fun.

I brought my black badge this year, and it remained in the room the entire Con. I decided that paying 100 bucks wasn't too great a burden for all the enjoyment I would receive.

I guess at the end of the day, much of this boils down to entitlement. With that Black Badge you are entitled to free entry to con if you so choose. However, you're not entitled to decide the method. It's a luxury if TW or DT are willing to listen to your idea's of doing things differently.

I can be a real bitch, but god damn, some of you fuckers could give me a run for my money with your whining.

I have a great idea, maybe DT should just go back on the whole black badge thing and invalidate them all for free entrance to con. Then stop giving out black badges... People will still compete in contests, And those who actually want to goto defcon will pay. Sure there would be a lot of bitching at first, a few would stamp there feet like children and swear off defcon, but maybe it would solve the problem of entitlement. I'm sure it would make TW and Russr's job easier in not having to deal with black badges.

~ HighWiz

[bloofar]

I started with a paper badge, traded that one of the regular badges that had some burnt-out LEDs, traded that for a working badge, prototyped our hack on that, and then implemented the final version on a press badge that I managed to get despite not being press (nor seriously claiming to be. Favors were traded. No I don't want to talk about it.)

... and then my team won the badge hacking contest, having started with laminated paper badges.

Actually I came pretty close to getting one from somebody else, just didn't work out this year. But since I ended up doing other stuff it turned into a 'screw it' kinda thing.

Yes, it sucks that not everyone gets a cool badge -- but at $27 a pop, I can understand why DT doesn't want to end up with a few hundred of these things sitting in a box in his basement. My point is, though, that if you really want a good badge, and can't make it to register for whatever reason until they're gone, there's 6000+ people walking around with the badges you want. Find someone willing to swap with you. It's not that hard.

They only cost $27 ea? Then I'm really not sympathetic. Every one sold covers the cost of 3 badges (yes yes I know there's a lot of other costs at DC, but we're just talking about the badges here). At some point the cost of running DC has been covered (one has to assume it's significantly less than the number of electronic badges made) and at that point its profit / eff donation / whatever. In the black, let's say.

Even *if* there are a surplus of badges for admission, I can guarantee that the rest would have gotten sold on site. Seriously, many people would have bought a second or third badge (even if they sold for $50 to people who already had them, it's still making a profit). Auction the extras off to raise funds for EFF. Whatever.

In years past, how many extra badges were there, and what happened to them?

the electronic ones are even more special. A static, plastic badge, cool as it may be, has nothing on a mini scrolling LED sign.

If kingpin keeps designing the badges (which I truly hope he does) then there will never be a problem selling them.

(Now, a really slick solution would be to find a circuit board maker who can fab them on the fly, or with a few hours lead-time, and willing to do so on-site. A pre-order of 7K badges, with small batches of a few hundred as supplies start to diminish, would solve the problem. Whether such an outfit exists, though, or if the equipment to do so is portable enough, I am not sure.)

'Portable' is a funny word, esp in the context of a con.. people bring a lot of weird shit that people wouldn't generally consider portable. You could do it if you had a large truck and a forklift.

It all depends on how the boards are manufactured. The badges this year (from what I know; correct me if I'm wrong) are just 2 sided with SMC and vias. There are a number of ways to assemble such boards. The simplest method I know of would be:

1. Stamp / mill the boards in the shape you want, and cut out the species at the bottom.
2. Drill holes for vias
3. Punch vias into place
4. Secure board to table with clamps, line up template transparency
5. Squeegy conductive paste for circuit traces through transparency
6. Place and tack smc components
7. Run through reflow oven
8. Fix any errors by hand

There's a lot of different methods the boards could be made with. The boards at the con were definitely etched, but the squeegy method can work too. A reflow oven is typically a fairly large thing (the kind for continuous production would be 10+ feet long) but I've done it in a toaster oven (which obviously wouldn't keep up with the production numbers that would be required). However there are fridge-sized and tabletop ovens that wouldn't be continuous flow but would have enough space to bake a few dozen simultaneously.

Summary: It would be possible. They'd need a lot of space (couple of vendor spaces would do it) but it would be fantastic advertising for their company.

[shrdlu]

Okay, I preface this with the important info that I have the crud mentioned in other threads (and it's making me more cranky than per usual).


They only cost $27 ea? Then I'm really not sympathetic. Every one sold covers the cost of 3 badges (yes yes I know there's a lot of other costs at DC, but we're just talking about the badges here). At some point the cost of running DC has been covered (one has to assume it's significantly less than the number of electronic badges made) and at that point its profit / eff donation / whatever. In the black, let's say.


Well, now, let me see. You'd like DT to assume the very high cost of INSURANCE, which certain little wankers guarantee he'll need, every year, not to mention the extra security staff at the hotel, and you'd really like to make sure that speakers don't get paid, or comp'd... I could go on, but I'll stop here.

If you want a cool badge, SHOW UP ON TIME. Get a friend to buy yours. Don't have a friend? Can't get there on time? Don't come. If you still show up, kwitcher bitchin. Clearly you haven't the faintest idea of how defcon's run, or what it takes to put on a show that size. I have a black badge, and I still paid for the other one. I figure it's a contribution towards the really excellent talks that show up at defcon, and nowhere else, or towards making sure that staff are taken care of.

Sure, DT's made his money on Blackhat, but that doesn't mean that defcon should become his private charity. Hey, look at it this way: You show up late, you wear the badge they give you, and you're GRATEFUL.

On that note, kudos to the staff for their handling of those who had a black badge, and still wanted a human one. Excellent method, and I think commendations are in order. TW, take a bow. Good work.

Russ can take a bow too, if he likes.

[cereal76]

Now that the thread has come pretty much full circle, what's the protocol when LV Metro confiscates your black badge, and the officer doesn't check it into evidence so you can get it back? Any chance of getting another one, or is that person doomed to pay for a badge every year (assuming they're allowed back into the Riv)?

[bloofar]

Okay, I preface this with the important info that I have the crud mentioned in other threads (and it's making me more cranky than per usual).

I'm in the same boat. I was on hour 28 of being awake when I wrote the first post, but I still stand by it :)

Well, now, let me see. You'd like DT to assume the very high cost of INSURANCE, which certain little wankers guarantee he'll need, every year, not to mention the extra security staff at the hotel, and you'd really like to make sure that speakers don't get paid, or comp'd... I could go on, but I'll stop here.

I'm the first to admit I have no idea how the financials work for DC. But what I said was that the the time all 6800 or whatever badges have been sold, are the numbers not in the black? I can only assume that when the projected number of people show up, the con is running at LEAST at break even point, if not at a profit. Or are you trying to say that insurance costs are based on the number of badges printed, and not the number of people who show up? Same with security? Does that mean that these costs suddenly went up when the cardboard/paper badges were sent to the printer?

If you want a cool badge, SHOW UP ON TIME. Get a friend to buy yours. Don't have a friend? Can't get there on time? Don't come. If you still show up, kwitcher bitchin. Clearly you haven't the faintest idea of how defcon's run, or what it takes to put on a show that size. I have a black badge, and I still paid for the other one. I figure it's a contribution towards the really excellent talks that show up at defcon, and nowhere else, or towards making sure that staff are taken care of.

Hey, I said I was salty, not in bitch mode. I planned on being there on time, even got there 2 days early. But I didn't plan on sitting in the emergency room all day Thursday waiting to talk to the dr.

Sure, DT's made his money on Blackhat, but that doesn't mean that defcon should become his private charity. Hey, look at it this way: You show up late, you wear the badge they give you, and you're GRATEFUL.

Never said it should be a charity. I suggested that surplus profit from any extra badges be donated to EFF or whatever. Seriously, had there been an extra 100 badges this year, do you think there would have been a problem selling them off?

On that note, kudos to the staff for their handling of those who had a black badge, and still wanted a human one. Excellent method, and I think commendations are in order. TW, take a bow. Good work.

Russ can take a bow too, if he likes.


Kudos to the entire staff. This con ran very smoothly from what I saw. Personally I'm not a fan of the riv nor some of the directions DC as a whole seems to be heading, but administratively it was definitely well done this year. The guys I dealt with this year (agent x, noid) did a great job.

[TheCotMan]

Let me pull out the history book on this....

Some Black Badge Holders: "*Complaint* I have a black badge, and every year, I get in for free, but I don't get to take home a free badge for the latest convention I attended."

TW and people at Defcon try to find a solution to let people take home their original black badge and take home a badge for the new conference they just attended, but does not lead to re-use of the same black badge, over-and-over to "hack" the reg desk for tons of free badges.

Now we have a new complaint: "*Complaint* I have a black badge, but don't get to have it and my free badge at the same time."

Right. Ok then. Perhaps placing a burden to provide suggestions on those complaining might help.

Problems outlined:
1) People with black badges want to be able to have their black badge and a new badge for free.

a) I see no way for this to happen, such that a person can have both, at the same time, during defcon, and not leave a huge gaping hole for hacking the reg system.

b) A person could be given a choice: free entrance and possession of their black badge during con at the cost of not getting a new badge, but this complicates things for the people that "guard" entrance to the con-space by limiting access to only those with defcon badges. Memorizing the look of the present year's badge plus over 10 black badges from previous years creates problems-- especially as more years pass, and more black badges come into being.

c) Badges could be reserved until the end of the con so black badge holders can claim them at the end: again this is a risk for hacking the reg system to get lots of free badges, *and* creates problems with knowing how many to reserve.

I am sure there are even more problems with this that I have not considered, but that is because I don't work reg. Instead of just complaining about the problem, see if you can find a solution to all of the problems outlined above, and then offer constructive criticism to provide a solution that everyone an enjoy.

The way I see it, when people don't provide constructive criticism to help suggest solutions to problems that work to solve the known problems, they really don't want to see a solution so much as they want to complain.

So far, the solution used by TW this year seems to be the only one that solves *most* of the problems. I don't see a way to solve all of the problems, but I have not thought about this very much.

At USENIX or other conferences, they sometimes have stickers people can place on badges, or inserts to include on their badge to specify speaker, vendor, X-Year-Veteran and more. However, stickers and inserts can also be hacked if the black badge is not surrendered during the con.

Anyone have suggestions to solve all of the above problems that they want to provide? the stage is open, the mic is on, and the spotlight is ready.

[bloofar]

What about having some kind of a punch that makes a mark on the badge? When the bb holders pick up a human badge for that year, the bb gets permanently marked in some way (which would not detract from the overall beauty of the badge) so that they can't DoS the reg line.

At the reefer rumble I attended one year, as you were given each sample they cut a corner of your badge in a specific manner.
er i mean.. s/reefer rumble/young republican; s/sample/live puppy for eating/;

Not that I'm suggesting that we cut off corners of black badges.

[TheCotMan]

What about having some kind of a punch that makes a mark on the badge? When the bb holders pick up a human badge for that year, the bb gets permanently marked in some way (which would not detract from the overall beauty of the badge) so that they can't DoS the reg line.

That might be an option for people that elect to have their badge defaced each year, but we'd need a really interesting punch-- especially for the Defcon X badges, and such a punch for the Defcon 9 badges might produce a leaky badge. (if done in the wrong place. ;-)

If used, we might have a new batch of people complaining next year about their badges being ruined. Any other suggestions?

[bigezy]

Let me pull out the history book on this....

Some Black Badge Holders: "*Complaint* I have a black badge, and every year, I get in for free, but I don't get to take home a free badge for the latest convention I attended."

TW and people at Defcon try to find a solution to let people take home their original black badge and take home a badge for the new conference they just attended, but does not lead to re-use of the same black badge, over-and-over to "hack" the reg desk for tons of free badges.

Now we have a new complaint: "*Complaint* I have a black badge, but don't get to have it and my free badge at the same time."

Right. Ok then. Perhaps placing a burden to provide suggestions on those complaining might help.

Problems outlined:
1) People with black badges want to be able to have their black badge and a new badge for free.

a) I see no way for this to happen, such that a person can have both, at the same time, during defcon, and not leave a huge gaping hole for hacking the reg system.

b) A person could be given a choice: free entrance and possession of their black badge during con at the cost of not getting a new badge, but this complicates things for the people that "guard" entrance to the con-space by limiting access to only those with defcon badges. Memorizing the look of the present year's badge plus over 10 black badges from previous years creates problems-- especially as more years pass, and more black badges come into being.

c) Badges could be reserved until the end of the con so black badge holders can claim them at the end: again this is a risk for hacking the reg system to get lots of free badges, *and* creates problems with knowing how many to reserve.

I am sure there are even more problems with this that I have not considered, but that is because I don't work reg. Instead of just complaining about the problem, see if you can find a solution to all of the problems outlined above, and then offer constructive criticism to provide a solution that everyone an enjoy.

The way I see it, when people don't provide constructive criticism to help suggest solutions to problems that work to solve the known problems, they really don't want to see a solution so much as they want to complain.

So far, the solution used by TW this year seems to be the only one that solves *most* of the problems. I don't see a way to solve all of the problems, but I have not thought about this very much.

[snip]

Anyone have suggestions to solve all of the above problems that they want to provide? the stage is open, the mic is on, and the spotlight is ready.

A first thought. I am still leary of a list of real names that indicate these people have black badges. Overall the idea of surrendering the badge seems to provide TW with the best way to ensure that only those that earned it get in for free.

Surrendering the badge for a specially made badge that shows the attendee as a black badge holder would solve a lot of the problem. Through the process created this year, TW should have an idea about how many of these badges would need to be made up. (Adding for the previous years winners)

The privacy of the badge holders identity will need to be addressed. Perhaps a challenge token (a torn in half dollar bill or the like) could serve as a unique identifier for the black badge holder.


How does that sound?

[TheCotMan]

Surrendering the badge for a specially made badge that shows the attendee as a black badge holder would solve a lot of the problem.
A sticker, tag or additional token of some sort, which is recognized to mean, "Holder Won Black Badge at Previous Defcon," which is provided when the black badge is surrendered? As an additional token, or simple modification to existing badges, the person turning in a black badge could still have some evidence claiming they previously earned a black badge, and having it work as an additional token or sticker would let the recipient choose to display it or not.
This seems to provide answers to many of the complaints people have.

The privacy of the badge holders identity will need to be addressed. Perhaps a challenge token (a torn in half dollar bill or the like) could serve as a unique identifier for the black badge holder.
This could be a way to preserve anonymity, so long as the people submitting their black badges agree that whoever submits the challenge token gets the badge at the end of the con, actually agree to this. The reason I mention this, is that theft of such a token would be similar to theft of the black badge associated with the token.

To solve the problem that TW faces right now, perhaps people could provide an email address (even one made just for con at yahoo, hotmail or gmail) so an email could be sent to the submitted email address if/when someone doesn't pick up their badge.

How does that sound?
Sounds like you have been thinking about this. :-)

Let's see if people have more ideas to submit...

[rabbi]

Um, here's a thought. Why not show up with your black badge, ask for a Human badge to be reserved for you, take a claim ticket for it, and then show up at the end of the con with your black badge and claim ticket so you can pick up your human badge that's been sitting in reserve?

The incentive to "get lots of friends in with your black badge" goes away as the con is now over, the claim ticket will prevent someone walking off with an ass-ton of kingpin's cool badges, and the anonymity issue is resolved.

(The remaining problems are that you don't get to actually hack on your new badge while you're there, but as I pointed out, with 7000 of them going around, they can be had. Then there's the problem of Goons, etc., not being able to recognize the ever-increasing number of black badges, but that's a fundamental problem with the Black Badge protocol, and somewhat off-topic for this, since Black Badge holders, afaik, aren't *required* to turn in their badges except to get "this year's" human badge. So that's a side discussion.)

... where am I wrong?

[TheCotMan]

Um, here's a thought. Why not show up with your black badge, ask for a Human badge to be reserved for you, take a claim ticket for it, and then show up at the end of the con with your black badge and claim ticket so you can pick up your human badge that's been sitting in reserve?

// Pseudo-code, assuming threaded process with shared global passed as arg:
int hackReg(bool &humanBadgesStillAvailable) {
while (humanBadgesStillAvailable) {
Person intA shows up with a Black badge;
Person intA has Human badge reserved, and gets claim ticket;
Person intA leaves, hands black Badge to Person ++intA;
}
return humanBadgesStillAvailable;
}


Now tons of free Human badges can be "reserved" for the end of Defcon so be sold on ebay, and a DoS to people buying human badges exists.

Even if a black badge is required with a token, then the same hand-off and sharing of the black badge with the claim tickets can be completed.

Can this DoS also be prevented? (I'm asking, not being sarcastic here.)

The incentive to "get lots of friends in with your black badge" goes away as the con is now over, the claim ticket will prevent someone walking off with an ass-ton of kingpin's cool badges, and the anonymity issue is resolved.

(The remaining problems are that you don't get to actually hack on your new badge while you're there, but as I pointed out, with 7000 of them going around, they can be had. Then there's the problem of Goons, etc., not being able to recognize the ever-increasing number of black badges, but that's a fundamental problem with the Black Badge protocol, and somewhat off-topic for this, since Black Badge holders, afaik, aren't *required* to turn in their badges except to get "this year's" human badge. So that's a side discussion.)
Yes, these problems still exist. While we are trying to resolve the problems at hand, creating new problems isn't so bad, assuming solutions to the new problems can also be found. Comparison of resulting solutions would require soltuions to new problems for fair comparison.

... where am I wrong?
Depends on definition of wrong, and if solutions can be found to the newly created problems. :-)

[shrdlu]

Yes, these problems still exist. While we are trying to resolve the problems at hand, creating new problems isn't so bad, assuming solutions to the new problems can also be found. Comparison of resulting solutions would require soltuions to new problems for fair comparison.


Lordy, all this sturm und drang. Look, guys, here it is:

1. As has been mentioned earlier, there's already enough complexity as it is. Getting in free is just fine, if you want to have the black badge held hostage. I don't think you need to walk around with it. If your ego is so delicate that you just HAVE to have everyone know that you won a black badge, please remember that there's three of them for this year's Hacker Jeopardy (although I understand that one got handed back).

2. Quit complaining. Enough. I have a black badge. I wanted the cool badge. It was Thursday, and they weren't sure how they were going to handle it yet, so I just bought it. It was one of two options (the other was taking the chance that they'd run out), and I took the one that looked best to me.

3. Quit complaining. I have a badge from Defcon {mumble} that doesn't even have a year, but is black. How are the hired help (including hotel security) supposed to keep all this straight?

4. Quit complaining. Really. TW et al did a great job, and deserve your thanks. In fact, I had a great time, it was nice to see people, and I'll be back next year.

[ßobÇat]

I'll give you my black badge for a current one, but the black badge goes straight into a padded Express Mail envelope I fill out and into a USPS mailbox?

Dunno how that works out for furriners.

[TheCotMan]

Lordy, all this sturm und drang. Look, guys, here it is:

1. As has been mentioned earlier, there's already enough complexity as it is. Getting in free is just fine, if you want to have the black badge held hostage. I don't think you need to walk around with it. If your ego is so delicate that you just HAVE to have everyone know that you won a black badge, please remember that there's three of them for this year's Hacker Jeopardy (although I understand that one got handed back).

I have no problem with the present solution, but that is because I don't have a black badge. However, instead of reading everyone's complaints, I felt it was much better to expect people to provide their own ideas for solutions, and if a really good solution is found, then TW has someone else doing work for him. (Secret to good organization: delegate, delegate, delegate.)

Constructive criticism > complaining.

If people provide a solution that has more problems, or new problems, then the people with complaints can really see how difficult it can be to solve these problems, and perhaps have more respect for TW and the present solution.

Let people provide constructive criticism, and see if they can help solve the problem-- which can help everyone. :-)

2. Quit complaining. Enough. I have a black badge. I wanted the cool badge. It was Thursday, and they weren't sure how they were going to handle it yet, so I just bought it. It was one of two options (the other was taking the chance that they'd run out), and I took the one that looked best to me.
This is a valid option. If people want to eat their cake and have it too, then they can pay for the 2nd cake after they ate the first one.

3. Quit complaining. I have a badge from Defcon {mumble} that doesn't even have a year, but is black. How are the hired help (including hotel security) supposed to keep all this straight?
Right. This it one of the problems I outlined above. What makes this worse, is that each year, we add a new badge that would need to be memorized by the guards and an increase in risk to "hacking" the system through counterfeiting old black badges.

4. Quit complaining. Really. TW et al did a great job, and deserve your thanks. In fact, I had a great time, it was nice to see people, and I'll be back next year.
Yes, he did a great job, and provided a solution to a problem that was brought up last year when people complained about not being able to get last year's badge when they arrived with a black badge.

Let's put a burden of solving this problem on the people that have the complaints. They are the ones that want to see a solution the most. Perhaps one of the many solutions they provide will catch TW's eye, and be adopted. Let us use the advantage of distributed computing at the user-level, and see where it leads. :-)

[ßobÇat]

Having finished reading the whole thread...

Kingpin can design cheaper badges. Green mostly unpopulated boards, double layer, vias, no SMT, just a few interesting empty circuits, perhaps with sockets, a breadboard area, and painted on goon, human, speaker, press, in the appropriate colors. Well, have the thing do something by default, I've a got a few ideas, but I'm sure Joe has more.

If you want to hack your badge, you need hw+sw skillz, not just soldering on a pin header and downloading something. Perhaps a vendor will be available to sell 555's and other retro dips. We'll be doing full color video, might have to sacrifice a cellphone...

How does this solve the black badge issue? Well, there's a new purple l337 badge, which is traded for a black badge that goes straight into the mail per my previous comment.

Now, you can hack your current badge. Registration can paint a 25 cent empty blank board on the fly with the proper species/color. Scraping off text and repainting is very hard, so we avoid that privilege escalation. Having the l337 badge announces your past uberity, and turning your badge into an iPhone - well, I can dream.

Did I miss anything?

[billygoto]

I am a realist. If I want to drink I have money. As far as getting laid, I am middle aged fat and ugly, no black piece of plastic is going to help me overcome any of those handicaps.

Come now... There's always the black AmEx.

[ck3k]

I want to sum up my thoughts on this topic :

If you want to walk around with a black badge....you get no human badge (TS)

If you want to get a Human badge...you must surrender your black badge to TW

I really see no issue, thanks TW for clearing up how you took names for the badges, honestly I would be more then happy to just use an email address, they are a dime a dozen, and make it very easy to insure you get your badge back.

If there is some stupid little sticker or special lanyard for those who have black badges, (and have surrendered them for human badges) that is a cool little bonus.....but this raises the issue of...is that sticker going to mean you have a black badge, if your original is lost? I see some holes in this plan as well.

I would like to thank TW, as I walked away with both a DC15 human badge and my DC13 black badge.

p.s.
ACTF should really be worth a black badge...it embraces everything that is Defcon.