Defcon forums have a new style that matches dc16 theme...

[neil]

Re: Defcon forums have a new style that matches dc16 theme...

I'm working on it right now to alleviate the contrast issues some are having. Stay tuned for a toned down version.

[Miss Jackalope]

Re: Defcon forums have a new style that matches dc16 theme...

Neil-
thank you!
I haven't done much exploring with my options, but the font can stand to be a bit bigger. Not sure if that's something I can change on my end. Either way though, it looks super AWESOME. I even saw some links that I had not ever seen on the old site - so, not sure if they are just new to this new format, or if I just missed htem before.

[neil]

Re: Defcon forums have a new style that matches dc16 theme...

Neil-
thank you!
I haven't done much exploring with my options, but the font can stand to be a bit bigger. Not sure if that's something I can change on my end. Either way though, it looks super AWESOME. I even saw some links that I had not ever seen on the old site - so, not sure if they are just new to this new format, or if I just missed htem before.

Thanks Jackalope! I think the font is actually bigger than it was before, but Ive heard from some it's too big...

Anyway, I've toned down the theme considerably, and I am hoping that this will help with some of the contrast problems people have had. I think that the borders, while still dotted, are now more suggestive than obtrusive, and continue to do the job of separating content. Just want you guys to know that your concerns are heard, and I value your feedback.

[xor]

Re: Defcon forums have a new style that matches dc16 theme...

I'm working on it right now to alleviate the contrast issues some are having. Stay tuned for a toned down version.

Your going to make me get an LCD aren't you :-). I'm going to sick the pussy cats on you. :-) Ever been attacked by a flying 12 lb Siamese cat? It's not pretty. :-)

xor

Ps I'm at least going to report you to PETA for making my cats give up the warm spot. :-)

[Deviant Ollam]

Re: Defcon forums have a new style that matches dc16 theme...

the font can stand to be a bit bigger.

the font is actually bigger than it was before

yeah, i'm with Neil on that one... the new look is a larger font. (Well, to be technical, the font itself isn't larger, i think, but rather is a character set that is larger in pixels than the previous font at the same point size)

I'm checking out the new revision and it still "seems" larger than the old font... but it's the serifs that still keep banging my eyes with sledge hammers. I'm waaay too much of an old fusspot, i suspect.

Anyway, I've toned down the theme considerably, and I am hoping that this will help with some of the contrast problems people have had.

see, this is harder on my eyes... i don't know what other folk were thinking before asking for something more toned down in the contrast...

the old theme had users' posted text in #CCCCCC in cells with a background of #333333. That's a difference of nine.

the new theme uas users' posted text in #666666 in cells with a background of #000000. That's a difference of only six.

Personally, i'd love to see the text with just a hint of color, say #666633 or #999966. While there are some who doubt it, i've read (and agree with) reports that the easiest thing for human eyes to see is light yellow or light green on a very dark background. (Who knew, our eyes were happiest on our old monochrome terminals!)

I think that the borders, while still dotted, are now more suggestive than obtrusive, and continue to do the job of separating content. Just want you guys to know that your concerns are heard, and I value your feedback.

i actually don't see any borders at all in the thread sections (and i like that, honestly... the differing background shades in table cells is enough to distinguish each post, each user, etc. the only place i see borders is way at the top, among the forum control panel links. i can take them or leave them there, personally. while i think that solid borders wouldn't work well with our new theme (particularly in that spot, so close to your kickass new artwork) i could just as easily see those links with no borders at all around them.

in any case, we seem to be progressing towards pleasing everyone and that's a good thing. thanks so much for listening to our comments and not feeling attacked or anything. your work is stellar and the fact that you come up with something new and fresh for the main site and overall theme each year is great.

/me still crosses fingers and holds out hope for a code-based solution, of course, whereby users can specify their own individual fonts face and colors for forum elements.

[xor]

Re: Defcon forums have a new style that matches dc16 theme...

All kidding aside Neil. I just wanted to say that anyone who can do creative stuff like web site design and computer graphics are uber in my book. There is a special place of admiration, awl, and a smidgen of jealousy in my mind for these people who have mastered both side of the brain. Programmer, artist & geek you are truly uber in my book. If I were do to it; it would just be bad, really bad.

There are just certain things I cannot do even under pain of death, make a layup or dribble in basketball, cut a straight line even with a laser, work with wood, and draw. I often joke that if a terrorist put a gun to my head and asked me to do one of the above I would get shot. However, if it runs or uses electricity I have truly been blessed with a gift; the electrons like me. :-).

x0r

[Deviant Ollam]

Re: Defcon forums have a new style that matches dc16 theme...

Regarding Contrast

the old theme had users' posted text in #CCCCCC in cells with a background of #333333. That's a difference of nine.

the new theme has users' posted text in #666666 in cells with a background of #000000. That's a difference of only six.

Personally, i'd love to see the text with just a hint of color, say #666633 or #999966. While there are some who doubt it, i've read (and agree with) reports that the easiest thing for human eyes to see is light yellow or light green on a very dark background. (Who knew, our eyes were happiest on our old monochrome terminals!)

so i recently noticed another entry in the forum appearance chooser menu. this option, called "converge" is actually really close to what i'd love to see. to compare the new official theme to the converge modified theme (in terms of contrast) let's go to the facts and figures...

main...

bkgd #000000
text #666666

that's still a contrast of six for text over background.

converge...

bkgd #000000
text #BBBBBB

here we have text that is much more readable, contrasting the background at a terrific level of eleven. while i'd still love to see what just a hint of color on the text (perhaps making it BBBB44 or BBBB66) would look like, i'm very happy with the level of contrast on converge's theme


Regarding Borders

i actually don't see any borders at all in the thread sections (and i like that, honestly... the differing background shades in table cells is enough to distinguish each post, each user, etc.)

to compare the two themes again, this time in terms of borders...

main...

bkgd #000000
dash #222222

the "main" theme, in a lovely gesture, the dashed lines that delineate posts are almost invisible, at a contrast of only two. that kicks so much ass.

converge...

bkgd #000000
dash #888888

converge's theme, which is so great for reading text, makes my eyes go buggy with dashed borders that have a contrast of eight. they really jump out and distract me from other elements on the page.

i may mock up some photoshopped images of the different schemes here, to show what i mean. they'll be in the next post.

[Deviant Ollam]

Re: Defcon forums have a new style that matches dc16 theme...

So, here's the rundown with screenshots (click for larger, non-distorted images)

here's the legacy theme


this is the "main" theme we are using now


this is converge's modified theme. (great contrast, but rashly-bright dotted borders)


here's a variant of the "main" theme that incorporates Converge's level of contrast while keeping the borders subdued (the most accessible perhaps?)


now, just for me (hehe) i've made up examples of how the forums could look with just a little color in the text. the first attempt was way too yellow


then i subdued that a bit and was pretty happy


i even tried one that's a little bit of a greenish-yellow variant

your thoughts? am i the only one out there who likes just a hint of color in the text? that's ok, i'm used to standing alone and wouldn't be sad if we never had any color at all in the post text. however, i would like to see the brightness closer to converge's level of contrast (the one labeled as perhaps the most accessible)

essentially, the comparison between the current main theme and a slightly brighter text variant of that theme is where i'd like to hear people's opinions. it's interesting, i've spent about an hour now this morning with Neil's new theme as i've made screenshots, photoshopped, etc. and it's really grown on me. i'd love to have it as my main setting. if we can just get it a touch more readable (say, with this text brightness) i'd use it instantly.

[Deviant Ollam]

Re: Defcon forums have a new style that matches dc16 theme...

Hey, has anyone else noticed one other shift? In all forms where you can type, the font that appears as you do so is no longer Tahoma but is instead Arial. Maybe if it were Helvetica (to match the control menu links) or something that ties in more to the theme it would be a little more slick.

Goddamn, is there no end to my obnoxious nit-picking?

[neil]

Re: Defcon forums have a new style that matches dc16 theme...

Hey, has anyone else noticed one other shift? In all forms where you can type, the font that appears as you do so is no longer Tahoma but is instead Arial. Maybe if it were Helvetica (to match the control menu links) or something that ties in more to the theme it would be a little more slick.

Goddamn, is there no end to my obnoxious nit-picking?

I believe it is set as helvetica, arial, sans... I always put helvetica in front, if i'm using a sans font. Helvetica, from my experience, isn't usually installed in windows by default (but I've been on a mac exclusively for a few years now, so that may have changed), unless I missed it somewhere...

As for the font color, I am not against adding a bit of color, but I have to keep the contrast down, as that was the biggest complaint (aside from the borders) i have been hearing. I went pretty drastic with that, however, so there is room to come back toward the middle.

At least I've got it growing on you now....

[Thorn]

Re: Defcon forums have a new style that matches dc16 theme...

Sorry Neil, but after trying to live with the new theme, I've switched back to Legacy. While I do like the new graphics, the main issue for me is the lack of contrast on the fonts to the background was causing too much eyestrain. At my advanced age, eyestrain is a real issue.

[neil]

Re: Defcon forums have a new style that matches dc16 theme...

Sorry Neil, but after trying to live with the new theme, I've switched back to Legacy. While I do like the new graphics, the main issue for me is the lack of contrast on the fonts to the background was causing too much eyestrain. At my advanced age, eyestrain is a real issue.

I hear you man, and I don't begrudge you the comfort of your eyes one bit... the reality is that everyone has a different experience (monitor, vision, OS, browser) and that's a hard fight to win... I do have a little breathing room to up the contrast on the text font a bit without going back to the almost white "bleeding" gray that I had originally... we shall see how it works out.

You guys use these forums quite a bit and I hope to find a way to make them work for all.

(Even you xor, with your big CRT space heater! How's the cat?)

[Thorn]

Re: Defcon forums have a new style that matches dc16 theme...

I hear you man, and I don't begrudge you the comfort of your eyes one bit... the reality is that everyone has a different experience (monitor, vision, OS, browser) and that's a hard fight to win... I do have a little breathing room to up the contrast on the text font a bit without going back to the almost white "bleeding" gray that I had originally... we shall see how it works out.

You guys use these forums quite a bit and I hope to find a way to make them work for all.

(Even you xor, with your big CRT space heater! How's the cat?)

Hey, thanks for your time and effort on all of this!

As for Xor's cats, when he's not keeping them warm on an overly large monitor, he uses them for an antenna on his AP. The cats' eyes glow on Transmit.
http://www.v-system.net/images/IMG_0091.jpg

[Nikita]

Re: Defcon forums have a new style that matches dc16 theme...

Hey, thanks for your time and effort on all of this!

As for Xor's cats, when he's not keeping them warm on an overly large monitor, he uses them for an antenna on his AP. The cats' eyes glow on Transmit.
http://www.v-system.net/images/IMG_0091.jpg

That cat is amazing. Very stunning! Basically what I'm trying to say is "it's real purtty"

[neil]

Re: Defcon forums have a new style that matches dc16 theme...

Alright guys,

I have split the difference on the font contrast, and added the tiniest hint of color...