Ready For CarTorrent.....?

[Lowie]

Re: Ready For CarTorrent.....?

The problem is 100 hrs in routine traffic doesn't train you to handle a car in an emergency. You might learn not to smack the car in front of you in heavy traffic, or even to merge onto a highway correctly, but you don't learn things like how a car's center of gravity shifts in extreme braking, and how that effects the handling.

How many of those hours were spent practicing getting out of front-end skids? Back end skids? Or practicing the correct maneuver to avoid a pedestrian stepping into your path? I could go on, but I'd be very surprised if you even had one day on a course like that.

And it's good that you learned slippery conditions during the winter course, but what about the students in the spring-summer semesters? That's part of the basic problem, there's little consistency even within the same school system, never mind the same state.

Not to mention the fact that every advert you see, including road safety adverts, shows a vehicle coming to stop by locking it's wheels. It's ingrained in peoples minds from an early age that the most efficient way of stopping a vehicle is by locking the wheels, or skidding if you wish.

And no, anti-lock brakes aren't the answer, as untrained and uninformed people learn via this system that you can just push as hard as you wish on a brake pedal and the vehicle will come to a stop. A very handy way of ensuring an accident when that person ends up in a non-ABS vehicle.

But I think I've digressed from the original point....

[xor]

Re: Ready For CarTorrent.....?

And no, anti-lock brakes aren't the answer, a

But they are certainly a big help as they prevent the wheels from hydroplaneing on a pad of molten synthetic rubber at least on dry asphalt. Which has much less friction and adhesion than would wheels not locked. At the moment the wheels lock/part of the tire attached to the road liquefies you are on virtually a frictionless surface and therefore actually accelerate rather than de-accelerate. You also lose the ability to control the car for the same reason. While these and another traffic safety features have added to the lessening of severity and increased survivability of accidents I agree that prevention via education & training are the best methods.

I personally learned on a car with a manual 3 speed column shift, no power brakes or power steering. However, I know Thorn(aka grandpa Moses) learned on the model T :-).


xor

Heck I remember when engines use run on leaded gas and were measured in cubic inches, not liters. I remember when they switched over, for awhile there you didn't know what you were driving, Aaaaaa what's a liter? I'm surprised the gas companies haven't switched to metric in the US. Good way to confuse most people into thinking their getting something that they aren't.

[Deviant Ollam]

Re: Ready For CarTorrent.....?

I personally learned on a car with a manual 3 speed column shift

am i alone in thinking that people should be strongly encouraged (if not outright required) to learn how to drive a manual transmission when they are starting out? maybe not learn and drive one exclusively... but it should really be part of the learning process.

and, just on a personal note, i'm not a parent but if i were to become one (or if i could take a moment to tell you how to raise your kids) i certainly would strongly support a child's first vehicle to be a stick shift. i feel (perhaps wrongly) that it forces the driver to be more in tune with their automobile, to be more aware of road conditions / traffic patterns, and while it's possible to change a CD or adjust the radio in a stick shift vehicle it's wicked difficult to drive while conducing a cel phone call or eating/drinking.

there's also the added benefit that acquiring a used car for a first time driver involves a lot lower costs and fewer "hidden" major problems (like transmission problems) on a stick shift.

am i wrong on any of the above points?

[streaker69]

Re: Ready For CarTorrent.....?

am i alone in thinking that people should be strongly encouraged (if not outright required) to learn how to drive a manual transmission when they are starting out? maybe not learn and drive one exclusively... but it should really be part of the learning process.

and, just on a personal note, i'm not a parent but if i were to become one (or if i could take a moment to tell you how to raise your kids) i certainly would strongly support a child's first vehicle to be a stick shift. i feel (perhaps wrongly) that it forces the driver to be more in tune with their automobile, to be more aware of road conditions / traffic patterns, and while it's possible to change a CD or adjust the radio in a stick shift vehicle it's wicked difficult to drive while conducing a cel phone call or eating/drinking.

there's also the added benefit that acquiring a used car for a first time driver involves a lot lower costs and fewer "hidden" major problems (like transmission problems) on a stick shift.

am i wrong on any of the above points?

I've owned 5 cars since I started to drive. Every single one of them has been Stick. The first car that I bought I couldn't drive home, my dad drove it home and then taught me how to drive it that night in the school parking lot.

I've found over the years, that driving in slick conditions, a stick is much easier to control than an automatic. If you start to slide, hit the clutch and release power from the wheels and you can maintain control than just an automatic and letting off the gas. Going down steep inclines on ice as many people know can be really dangerous especially if an automatic transmission decides it wants to downshift on you while you're descending. That of course changes the torque to the drive wheels and can send you into a spin. What I've always done is on a down hill, I take the car out of gear, and allow it to freewheel and gently adjust speed with the brakes. I've never had a problem stopping at the bottom of any hill doing this method. Of course, it does take practice. Every car I've ever owned, the first time it would snow, I'd go out in the middle of the night to an adbandoned parking lot and spend about an hour driving around and seeing how the car would perform in the snow. I'd intentionally lose control and then regain control. Too bad more people don't do this. They seem to think that they're $50k 4x4 with traction control means they can drive through anything. I've seen more than enough of them sitting in ditches.

I do agree, everyone should know how to drive stick, you almost have to look at it as what if there were an emergency situation and that was the only car that was available for them to drive.

Of course, I wouldn't recommend a 3speed on the tree for most beginners.

[Deviant Ollam]

Re: Ready For CarTorrent.....?

I do agree, everyone should know how to drive stick, you almost have to look at it as what if there were an emergency situation and that was the only car that was available for them to drive.

yeah, exactly! if your buddy is drunk and you have to drive the car home... or if you break out of a prison where you're being held hostage only to find that the rouge mexican police who are holding you have a stick shift vehicle parked out front. (hehe... shameless gringo warrior plug)

then again, it sure is funny to read stories nowadays about people making an ass of themselves when they get into situations trying to grab a car and being unable to drive it. i remember a story of a cop (who was later reprimanded for mistreating a citizen on camera) trying to move a vehicle to the side of a road and burning up the clutch. i also recall a story on Fark just the other day about a guy who tried to carjack someone but couldn't get the vehicle to go.

Of course, I wouldn't recommend a 3speed on the tree for most beginners.

hehe... all of my friends here that ask me to teach them to drive stick get to learn on my Jeep. i sort of compare it to learning to ski here on the east coast. between all the icy shit and poor snow cover, you have to learn to get down the mountain ni adverse conditions. then if you go up to vermont or out west to someplace like colorado you're in heaven and have it made.

my Jeep is a 3-speed Borg-Warner T-150 transmission. The gear ratios are a fucking hilarious nightmare...

1st gear - 3 : 1
2nd gear - 1.75 : 1
3rd gear - 1 : 1

... in a typical car nowadays, a three to one ratio is something you're almost likely to see in second gear. plus the Jeep is a '76 so the synchros are pretty shot to shit and the whole affair is clunky and awkward. i encourage and reassure people by reminding them that the vehicle is really light, the engine is strong and that even if they stall out or make a royal mess of the shift pattern we're talking lots of cast iron parts that can't really get damaged. once they figure out how to properly finesse a clutch on that beast, including stopping on hills, they are ready to get behind the wheel of almost anything short of a dump truck.

[streaker69]

Re: Ready For CarTorrent.....?

... in a typical car nowadays, a three to one ratio is something you're almost likely to see in second gear. plus the Jeep is a '76 so the synchros are pretty shot to shit and the whole affair is clunky and awkward. i encourage and reassure people by reminding them that the vehicle is really light, the engine is strong and that even if they stall out or make a royal mess of the shift pattern we're talking lots of cast iron parts that can't really get damaged. once they figure out how to properly finesse a clutch on that beast, including stopping on hills, they are ready to get behind the wheel of almost anything short of a dump truck.

I'm not exactly sure that 'finesse' is the correct term for trying to operate a 12" heavy clutch operated by a cable. ;)

People are even spoiled today in modern sticks because of the hydraulic clutches, those old cable types were even more difficult to learn on, just because of the sheer weight.

[theprez98]

Re: Ready For CarTorrent.....?

am i alone in thinking that people should be strongly encouraged (if not outright required) to learn how to drive a manual transmission when they are starting out?

You are not alone!

maybe not learn and drive one exclusively... but it should really be part of the learning process.

Absolutely!

streaker69I've owned 5 cars since I started to drive. Every single one of them has been Stick.

My Grand Cherokee is the first automatic transmission I've owned. I miss the manual.

After driving a manual transmission for a while and then hopping into an automatic, my left knee would actually feel sore from not using my left leg.

[Deviant Ollam]

Re: Ready For CarTorrent.....?

I'm not exactly sure that 'finesse' is the correct term for trying to operate a 12" heavy clutch operated by a cable. ... [as opposed to modern] hydraulic clutches, those old cable types were even more difficult to learn on

actually, CJ jeeps use a third, lesser-known style of clutch called a "pushrod" clutch. it has all the old-fashioned hipness of a cable system but without the ability to stretch, fray, or otherwise become weakened with time.

After driving a manual transmission for a while and then hopping into an automatic, my left knee would actually feel sore from not using my left leg.

i constantly try to push for the pedal that isn't there when slowing down and stopping in my Yukon after driving the Jeep for a week or so in good weather.

[Suriyawong]

Re: Ready For CarTorrent.....?

Haha, I think we all do that form time to time... Whenever I borrow someone else's car or a family car, the first thing I always do is smash in the brake thinking it's the clutch.

I agree though, as I think everyone here does considering everyone here is actually intelligent, that people should learn to drive on a stick. If you can drive a stick, then you can drive most of the cars on the road. When some crazy situation comes up that you have to drive a stick, you won't be caught with your pants down.

Also, as far as going into a parking lot and skidding around and stuff, living where I do, cops actually care when you flip around in parking lots. Considering I'm 19, they also would probably think that I'm just some kid dicking around in the snow. More than likely, if a cop saw me doing that, they would probably give me a ticket. Chances of a cop seeing me are pretty good too, considering they have nothing better to do with their time here. Sigh...

[barry99705]

Re: Ready For CarTorrent.....?

Haha, I think we all do that form time to time... Whenever I borrow someone else's car or a family car, the first thing I always do is smash in the brake thinking it's the clutch.

I agree though, as I think everyone here does considering everyone here is actually intelligent, that people should learn to drive on a stick. If you can drive a stick, then you can drive most of the cars on the road. When some crazy situation comes up that you have to drive a stick, you won't be caught with your pants down.

Also, as far as going into a parking lot and skidding around and stuff, living where I do, cops actually care when you flip around in parking lots. Considering I'm 19, they also would probably think that I'm just some kid dicking around in the snow. More than likely, if a cop saw me doing that, they would probably give me a ticket. Chances of a cop seeing me are pretty good too, considering they have nothing better to do with their time here. Sigh...

That sounds oddly familiar....

[Lowie]

Re: Ready For CarTorrent.....?

If you can drive a stick, then you can drive most of the cars on the road. When some crazy situation comes up that you have to drive a stick, you won't be caught with your pants down.

Just for a laugh, was an advert here in Australia:

Manual

[xor]

Re: Ready For CarTorrent.....?

am i alone in thinking that people should be strongly encouraged (if not outright required) to learn how to drive a manual transmission when they are starting out? maybe not learn and drive one exclusively... but it should really be part of the learning process.

and, just on a personal note, i'm not a parent but if i were to become one (or if i could take a moment to tell you how to raise your kids) i certainly would strongly support a child's first vehicle to be a stick shift. i feel (perhaps wrongly) that it forces the driver to be more in tune with their automobile, to be more aware of road conditions / traffic patterns, and while it's possible to change a CD or adjust the radio in a stick shift vehicle it's wicked difficult to drive while conducing a cel phone call or eating/drinking.

there's also the added benefit that acquiring a used car for a first time driver involves a lot lower costs and fewer "hidden" major problems (like transmission problems) on a stick shift.

am i wrong on any of the above points?

Yes, I agree totally that everyone should learn to drive stick whether you own one or not(just not on my clutch, $1300 to replace a clutch at the Honda dealer for an Element ouchy). Once mastered it's like riding a bike you never forget how.

On my local LUG we asked users if they drive a stick or not. Something like 90% replied yes.

Engineer came to the shop from out of town and he had rented a Toyota Prius. Very cool car with the RFID module for a/instead of a key. He stated that it took him 20 minutes to figure out how to start it. Tiny little automatic shifter and very cool display screen; reminded me of Streakers PLC screens with out the crap crusher. :-)

xor

[barry99705]

Re: Ready For CarTorrent.....?

Yes, I agree totally that everyone should learn to drive stick whether you own one or not(just not on my clutch, $1300 to replace a clutch at the Honda dealer for an Element ouchy). Once mastered it's like riding a bike you never forget how.

On my local LUG we asked users if they drive a stick or not. Something like 90% replied yes.

Engineer came to the shop from out of town and he had rented a Toyota Prius. Very cool car with the RFID module for a/instead of a key. He stated that it took him 20 minutes to figure out how to start it. Tiny little automatic shifter and very cool display screen; reminded me of Streakers PLC screens with out the crap crusher. :-)

xor

That's fixable.

[streaker69]

Re: Ready For CarTorrent.....?

Tiny little automatic shifter and very cool display screen; reminded me of Streakers PLC screens with out the crap crusher. :-)

xor

The actual brand name of those 'crap crushers', (believe it or not) is Muffin Monster. When ya work in this field, ya gotta have a sense of humor.

[Thorn]

Re: Ready For CarTorrent.....?

The actual brand name of those 'crap crushers', (believe it or not) is Muffin Monster. When ya work in this field, ya gotta have a sense of humor.

You have to have a sense of humor, 'cuz you take a lot of shit.

(Yup, that was too easy.)