U.S. security in top shape by its people

[afterburn188]

Re: U.S. security in top shape by its people

Its all a matter of how it gets spun. If the order comes down to move into an area and start shooting, likely there will be some excuse put together as to why US troops are invading a US city and firing on US citizens, whether its bullshit or not. Some of them will question the order, others will blindly follow. Its sad really, but sadly real.

I apologize for the rant in advance but XORs post has inspired me to comment on this thread.

It was my understanding that according to the US Constitution, the standing army (US Army) could not be used for Domestic Law Enforcement purposes. This dates back to the founders not wanting a standing army and was reinforced following the end of the Civil War. Martial Law has to be instituted in order for the US Army (the standing army) to be allowed on US soil to act as a governing force. This is also why in the event of emergencies, it is the National Guard (technically state militia) that is brought in, not the US Army. It would take a massive political move in order to bring the US Army into play.

On top of this, the order has been given before in US history. During the Vietnam War, roughly 10,000 protestors marched on Fort Dix and proceeded to in essence invade the installation. At the time, Fort Dix was serving as a final "field" training for soldiers before deployment to Vietnam. These were young men who had just come from basic training. For those that don't know, there is more than just physical training that goes on during a basic training. The mental aspect is one that is hard to describe but very deeply researched through out history. Having experienced the psychological experience first hand of US Army training, I can attest that they are very good at training soldiers to do as instructed and fight as needed. With this still fresh in their heads, these men were put in a situation unlike one many have faced. Before them lay an "assault" by US civilians. The order was passed down to repel the protestors and ammunition was passed around. It is a situation I don't imagine anyone would want to be faced with. Imagine being that young and having a violent crowd coming towards you and being ordered to defend your position. Having known an officer who served during this incident, the story goes that all the privates ignored the orders and refused to comply, some to the point of not manning their posts. This story has always stuck out in my mind as an example demonstrating exactly what XOR described above.

The bottom line is although this post may be flagged as mere politics, I have attempted to comment from a historical prospective as we were all once (at least supposed) to be taught to do in our history classes. If you recall your US History, these laws were made during a time when the future-American population experienced the effects of being stripped of their right to bear arms, had to quarter and house the British Army, and were effected by the presence of a standing army. If you go back and read such things as the Federalist papers and the debate surrounding the adoption of the Constitution/Bill of Rights, all the evidence you need is there. Since the adoption of this nation, the conflict has raged on. Although I am alarmed by recent events the fact that these debates still continue to this day makes it almost reassuring to know that we live in a nation where this is possible. This is given evidence why the Bill of Rights and Constitution were made so difficult to change for a reason. Although many Americans believe that it is in their best interest to give up the right to bear arms or to instead limit it, the constitutional amendment protects that. It is a demonstration of the strength of a democracy and why we are as fortunate as we are to live in a nation like this.

[burncycle]

Re: U.S. security in top shape by its people

Well thought out xor. So to level the playing field we need nukes too? Firesticks not enough? I'm willing to bet that no American soldier would straif or nuke other Americans even under order. I think one could also say many American GI's do not trust the U.S. gov't anyway and would probably even turn on their own government if such orders were given. I can however envision a door to door campaign similar to what happened in Georgia near Russia. Knock, knock, is anyone else living in or on the premises, your papers please, now hand over your guns and ammo or go to our camp of disodents. That will be a defining moment for many Americans should our leaders go that far off the map.

Its all a matter of how it gets spun. If the order comes down to move into an area and start shooting, likely there will be some excuse put together as to why US troops are invading a US city and firing on US citizens, whether its bullshit or not. Some of them will question the order, others will blindly follow. Its sad really, but sadly real.

[streaker69]

Re: U.S. security in top shape by its people

xor

I just want them to kill the pirates. If I hear one more news report about the dam pirates I'm going to scream.

I hear Johnny Depp has signed on for another Pirates of the Caribbean Movie.

[xor]

Re: U.S. security in top shape by its people

I don't really don't fear our own army taking over. Our military is a good representation of our diverse population with no one group, creed, nationality out numbering the other. You usually see power grabs like that in countries where the military is overwhelmingly one group, creed or nationality.

I have a great deal of respect for our military. When they get it right they can be unstoppable,

xor

I just want them to kill the pirates. If I hear one more news report about the dam pirates I'm going to scream.

[Greyhatter]

Re: U.S. security in top shape by its people

Well thought out xor. So to level the playing field we need nukes too? Firesticks not enough? I'm willing to bet that no American soldier would straif or nuke other Americans even under order. I think one could also say many American GI's do not trust the U.S. gov't anyway and would probably even turn on their own government if such orders were given. I can however envision a door to door campaign similar to what happened in Georgia near Russia. Knock, knock, is anyone else living in or on the premises, your papers please, now hand over your guns and ammo or go to our camp of disodents. That will be a defining moment for many Americans should our leaders go that far off the map.

[xor]

Re: U.S. security in top shape by its people

Topic Quote
U.S. security in top shape by its people

Guns alone don't mean security. An untrained, undisciplined, unorganized, unfunded, militia or mob is no match for a modern mechanized military.

The last time a mechanized military was defeated was the British in 1879 by the Zulu's. The Zulu's however still lost the war, even being some what organized and having a like minded cause, defending their own country. Another example some could argue was Somali, Mogadishu(et al Black Hawk Down) which was a Pyrrhic Victory for Somali's at best but in the end we still got him.

We have perhaps the most lethal military in the world. I for one wouldn't want to go toe to toe with them. Typically all it takes is one fly by and the show is over.

Afghanistan still proves to be able to buck the rule with terrain that can swallow armies; having bested the Soviets. But then again we helped the other side at the time with Stinger Missiles as well as other cool stuff which gave them a command and control structure. Once the Soviets dumped their cold war style sweep and clear strategy and went with special forces, dropped behind lines, dressed as insurgents they started to put a hurting on them. Of course they really didn't care about border sovereignty either.

Would having an armed populous have helped just recently in India? I still think with the element of surprise, the terrorists prior training, organization, greater fire power, and most importantly they have a "holy cause" that any single person with a gun would lose. Though be it they might take a few with them. I personally would rather die standing up than on my knees any day of the week.

Aragorn: "What do you fear, lady?" he asked.
Eowyn: "A cage," she said. "To stay behind bars, until use and old age accept them, and all chance of doing great deeds is gone beyond recall or desire."

As a deterrent against crime I feel an armed populous is a good thing. Though you still have to be willing to pull that trigger and deal with the consequences of your actions, morally, civilly and criminally for both success and mistakes. There are even soldiers with training, during war, with the moral "high ground" who fail at the moment of truth. There's also the moral question that must be made is anyone's property worth a human life? You should be asking these questions now and not at the moment of truth. There is no right or wrong answer(no debate necessary) each person must decide that for themselves. Also, in a situation with others, do you just make that decision for them deciding to pull them into your fate because you can. Or do you wait for an opportunity that may never come where collateral damage will be none?

So the point; as a crime deterrent yes they mean better security for all. Armed citizens against a committed(willing to die) terrorist force; an excellent chance you will lose(not saying that you shouldn't try; e.g. United Flight 93). As for armed citizens challenging our government with our military behind said government, man you are dreaming,

xor

[xor]

Re: U.S. security in top shape by its people

I guess I am part of the problem. I bought my oldest grandson a 410/.22 combo for his Christmas present from Grandma and I.

I too am part of the 300% increase. Wish I owned stock in Remington.

xor

[streaker69]

Re: U.S. security in top shape by its people

I guess I am part of the problem. I bought my oldest grandson a 410/.22 combo for his Christmas present from Grandma and I.

I went to the Gun Show last weekend at the Dulles Expo Center in Chantilli. This was the third consecutive year and I must say this year had to be the most crowded that I have seen. Just looking for a parking place, I saw license plates from at least 7 other states. Given the proximity to DC, MD, PA, WV it is not uncommon to see those plates but North Carolina, Ohio and Florida were two I distinctly recall seeing. Now some of these could have been sellers but i do not believe so as the vendors usually park in a different area, closer to the loading docks.

I saw an article that SC is offering Tax Free gun purchases tomorrow, Black Friday.

[DaKahuna]

Re: U.S. security in top shape by its people

I guess I am part of the problem. I bought my oldest grandson a 410/.22 combo for his Christmas present from Grandma and I.

I went to the Gun Show last weekend at the Dulles Expo Center in Chantilli. This was the third consecutive year and I must say this year had to be the most crowded that I have seen. Just looking for a parking place, I saw license plates from at least 7 other states. Given the proximity to DC, MD, PA, WV it is not uncommon to see those plates but North Carolina, Ohio and Florida were two I distinctly recall seeing. Now some of these could have been sellers but i do not believe so as the vendors usually park in a different area, closer to the loading docks.

[Greyhatter]

http://www.google.com/search?q=gun%20sales%20up%20100%
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q...25&btnG=Search
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q...25&btnG=Search