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DEFCON 17 CTF Call for new Organizers!

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  • neil
    replied
    Re: DEFCON 17 CTF Call for new Organizers!

    Just a reminder, only a few days left to turn in your groundbreaking new CTF proposals! Get on it!

    Leave a comment:


  • ForSwitch
    replied
    Re: DEFCON 17 CTF Call for new Organizers!

    Originally posted by Dark Tangent View Post
    Yeah, it might be just the basic abstract.. something to give you guys an idea of the various proposals without spilling the beans on who is proposing to run it.
    Might posting the abstracts also leak details to potential competitors?

    One of the great things about the Kenshoto run game was the uncertainty coming into the game.

    If a group suggested (for example, as has been done in the past) submitting flags over DTMF, then the teams know to expect it and aren't scrambling to come up with a way to automate it while also reversing/exploiting services. Instead, all the good teams come out with the problem essentially solved. A big part of the game (as I see it) is being able to adapt to that sort of thing.

    Perhaps you should solicit the teams submitting proposals for a "public facing description" of their vision of the game...just a thought.

    Leave a comment:


  • Dark Tangent
    replied
    Re: DEFCON 17 CTF Call for new Organizers!

    Originally posted by GoldfishPcklJar View Post
    Looking at some of the questions, if you cut out names and such, I think it would still be rather easy to figure out some of the applicants. I'm specifically thinking of past experience. Not that I wouldn't love to know who is applying and give feedback. I just think it could still potentially become a popularity contest.

    Edit: Example "Participated in last 3 DEFCON CTF Winning first in 15 and 16..."

    Yeah, it might be just the basic abstract.. something to give you guys an idea of the various proposals without spilling the beans on who is proposing to run it.

    Leave a comment:


  • GoldfishPcklJar
    replied
    Re: DEFCON 17 CTF Call for new Organizers!

    Looking at some of the questions, if you cut out names and such, I think it would still be rather easy to figure out some of the applicants. I'm specifically thinking of past experience. Not that I wouldn't love to know who is applying and give feedback. I just think it could still potentially become a popularity contest.

    Edit: Example "Participated in last 3 DEFCON CTF Winning first in 15 and 16..."

    Leave a comment:


  • LosT
    replied
    Re: DEFCON 17 CTF Call for new Organizers!

    Ah feedback. Are we talking Op-amps here?

    Leave a comment:


  • TheCotMan
    replied
    Re: DEFCON 17 CTF Call for new Organizers!

    Originally posted by Dark Tangent View Post
    If I post some, will you guys provide _constructive_ feedback?
    Just don't post it in /dev/random or /dev/null, and the rules against flaming can be enforced.

    Unless a moderator chooses to provide flaming comment, because they are allowed to do that when enforcing the rules.

    Originally posted by Chris View Post
    I will provide feedback...and *I* will consider it constructive. Your mileage may vary.
    Ah.Well then. There you go!

    Leave a comment:


  • Chris
    replied
    Re: CTF Submissions are now arriving

    Originally posted by Dark Tangent View Post
    We have a couple more weeks until the end of the month when the CTF CFP closes.

    So far we have a few good submissions, and I'd like to blind the submitters so it isn't a popularity contest, and share them with everyone to gather feedback. That way if there are some team members lurking they can see what people have to say and make any adjustments to their submission before the deadline.

    If I post some, will you guys provide _constructive_ feedback?
    I will provide feedback...and *I* will consider it constructive. Your mileage may vary.

    Leave a comment:


  • Dark Tangent
    replied
    CTF Submissions are now arriving

    We have a couple more weeks until the end of the month when the CTF CFP closes.

    So far we have a few good submissions, and I'd like to blind the submitters so it isn't a popularity contest, and share them with everyone to gather feedback. That way if there are some team members lurking they can see what people have to say and make any adjustments to their submission before the deadline.

    If I post some, will you guys provide _constructive_ feedback?

    Leave a comment:


  • Chris
    replied
    Re: DEFCON 17 CTF Call for new Organizers!

    Originally posted by gdead View Post
    Speaking of co-mingling contests...

    Some members of The Shmoo Group would like to put on a hacker-themed Team Fortress 2 tourney last year. I had a small (very small) LAN party before my sunday morning talk at DC16... While only a few ppl had machines capable of playing the game, many came up to me afterwards indicating they'd come prepared for next year if we could organize something earlier and bigger.

    We're working on a custom scoreboard to make TF2 a spectator sport in much the same way CTF is. We'll be debuting this at ShmooCon for the TF2 tourney there. We'll also be building a custom DC themed map for competition at DefCon if this all goes as planned.

    Anyhoo, we're hoping that whoever wins the CTF CFP would be willing to work with us (assuming this all gets approved by whoever approves this sort of thing). It would be fantastic to piggy back on the CTF network in the off hours for the TF2 tourney. We'd like to run the tourney at night when CTF isn't going on... that is assuming the same type of scheduling as previous years. We have similar needs (fast network, AV, etc) as CTF and don't really want to reinvent the wheel if we don't have to.

    Food for thought for whoever has made it this far in the thread and is thinking of applying to take over CTF. It's clearly a more complicated idea than I've laid out here. But I wanted to at least make folks aware that we were hoping to come storming in with our virtual guns blazing at DC17.
    Hey Bruce. Russ is the person you want to talk to initially about this. I forwarded this info to him along with your contact info.

    Chris

    Leave a comment:


  • gdead
    replied
    Re: DEFCON 17 CTF Call for new Organizers!

    Speaking of co-mingling contests...

    Some members of The Shmoo Group would like to put on a hacker-themed Team Fortress 2 tourney last year. I had a small (very small) LAN party before my sunday morning talk at DC16... While only a few ppl had machines capable of playing the game, many came up to me afterwards indicating they'd come prepared for next year if we could organize something earlier and bigger.

    We're working on a custom scoreboard to make TF2 a spectator sport in much the same way CTF is. We'll be debuting this at ShmooCon for the TF2 tourney there. We'll also be building a custom DC themed map for competition at DefCon if this all goes as planned.

    Anyhoo, we're hoping that whoever wins the CTF CFP would be willing to work with us (assuming this all gets approved by whoever approves this sort of thing). It would be fantastic to piggy back on the CTF network in the off hours for the TF2 tourney. We'd like to run the tourney at night when CTF isn't going on... that is assuming the same type of scheduling as previous years. We have similar needs (fast network, AV, etc) as CTF and don't really want to reinvent the wheel if we don't have to.

    Food for thought for whoever has made it this far in the thread and is thinking of applying to take over CTF. It's clearly a more complicated idea than I've laid out here. But I wanted to at least make folks aware that we were hoping to come storming in with our virtual guns blazing at DC17.

    Leave a comment:


  • valkyrie
    replied
    Re: DEFCON 17 CTF Call for new Organizers!

    Originally posted by valkyrie View Post
    I gave more points to people at DC15 who cracked the codes on the physical Enigmas vice those who used the on-line engines to crack the code. Is this what you mean? If not, school me please.

    regards.

    valkyrie
    __________________________________________________ _________
    sapere aude
    Sorry, I was getting all theoretical there. Whoever decides to own this, if you need/want a lackey, I'm volunteering. Okie, let's get back on track...

    Regards,

    valkyrie
    __________________________________________________ __________________
    sapere aude

    Leave a comment:


  • valkyrie
    replied
    Re: DEFCON 17 CTF Call for new Organizers!

    Originally posted by Deviant Ollam View Post
    i have been thinking that the overall "course" could be visualized with an analogy of a highway that has three lanes. the "fast" lane (a lane with challenges spaced far apart... numbering only a few through the whole game) would have quite difficult puzzles and obstacles. the "easy" lane would naturally have many more obstacles and problems to face. (and the middle lane would be in between the two)

    a number of alternate "paths" would be present at various points to allow lane changes, so to speak, for any team that wants to work a different course. speed may be achieved outright by any team who can complete the hardest of challenges, an unlikely event unless they've really outfitted their team with a dizzying mix of people. still, other teams will still have the opportunity to complete the course and perhaps even gain a higher "score" if they complete additional puzzles or challenges.

    so, in short, i would envision a point-based system... one that rewards both the speedy completion of the challenges but also the sheer number of tasks accomplished.

    such a point system could be much like in Gringo Warrior... i specifically calibrated the point values so that a "slow" run through the super-challenging locks would just barely beat out someone who took the "easy" route and made it through almost immediately.

    in the end, perhaps we could envision a scenario of points and course design where one team, possibly using a combination of the "hard" and "medium" lanes reaches the final puzzle and solves it in a couple hours. (i would think this should be a one-day course on Saturday only, possibly) this team would be listed as a leader (perhaps a continuous score board showing teams progress, etc) other teams could still complete the overall course, and could even opt to back-track... seeking out other challenges in other "lanes" that they had previously bypassed. a new leader could emerge in the end if that first team sat idly by while others kept persevering and doing a sort of "clean up" action.
    I gave more points to people at DC15 who cracked the codes on the physical Enigmas vice those who used the on-line engines to crack the code. Is this what you mean? If not, school me please.

    regards.

    valkyrie
    __________________________________________________ _________
    sapere aude

    Leave a comment:


  • Deviant Ollam
    replied
    Re: DEFCON 17 CTF Call for new Organizers!

    Originally posted by TheCotMan View Post
    If there ever was a Decathlon of cross-discipline game for CTF, how would you include evaluation of cleverness and finesse so that it wasn't strictly a speed-based event?
    i have been thinking that the overall "course" could be visualized with an analogy of a highway that has three lanes. the "fast" lane (a lane with challenges spaced far apart... numbering only a few through the whole game) would have quite difficult puzzles and obstacles. the "easy" lane would naturally have many more obstacles and problems to face. (and the middle lane would be in between the two)

    a number of alternate "paths" would be present at various points to allow lane changes, so to speak, for any team that wants to work a different course. speed may be achieved outright by any team who can complete the hardest of challenges, an unlikely event unless they've really outfitted their team with a dizzying mix of people. still, other teams will still have the opportunity to complete the course and perhaps even gain a higher "score" if they complete additional puzzles or challenges.

    so, in short, i would envision a point-based system... one that rewards both the speedy completion of the challenges but also the sheer number of tasks accomplished.

    such a point system could be much like in Gringo Warrior... i specifically calibrated the point values so that a "slow" run through the super-challenging locks would just barely beat out someone who took the "easy" route and made it through almost immediately.

    in the end, perhaps we could envision a scenario of points and course design where one team, possibly using a combination of the "hard" and "medium" lanes reaches the final puzzle and solves it in a couple hours. (i would think this should be a one-day course on Saturday only, possibly) this team would be listed as a leader (perhaps a continuous score board showing teams progress, etc) other teams could still complete the overall course, and could even opt to back-track... seeking out other challenges in other "lanes" that they had previously bypassed. a new leader could emerge in the end if that first team sat idly by while others kept persevering and doing a sort of "clean up" action.

    Leave a comment:


  • TheCotMan
    replied
    Re: DEFCON 17 CTF Call for new Organizers!

    Running contests is difficult.
    When speed is the only component, frequently access to more resources can give participants a greater advantage.
    When finesse is the only component, and people are judged on how clever their attack was, then those with more time to gain experience and learn are favored.

    Some contests have found ways to balance this, like LPCon with the Obstacle Course and the Speed course. The WarDriving contest switched from a primarily speed-based contest to several contests that allow for demonstration of cleverness, luck, and speed.

    If there ever was a Decathlon of cross-discipline game for CTF, how would you include evaluation of cleverness and finesse so that it wasn't strictly a speed-based event?

    Leave a comment:


  • Deviant Ollam
    replied
    Re: DEFCON 17 CTF Call for new Organizers!

    the notion of a cross-platform contest has actually been discussed a lot more than many people realize, mostly in back-channel messages and late-night talks in bars. a surprising number of people have been on board when i've pitched the idea to them, including...
    LostBoy (mystery box type puzzles, though less difficult)
    Thorn/Render (adding some element of WiFi cracking)
    ndex (basic phone phreaking skills)
    LockPick Crew (self-explanatory)
    others i'm forgetting

    the three biggest obstacles that we often talk about whenever this sort of thing gets mentioned are...
    1. taking up too much time / involving so many skills that teams get frustrated and give up easily or could never hope to finish (i continue to push the idea that the course shouldn't be fully linear, and in fact could have multiple vectors toward one ultimate goal... thus allowing people who can't pick a lock to instead try to crack a cipher or some team who can't break WPA to instead crack three separate WEP passwords, say)

    2. planners splitting their time and resources between their "main" contest and also participating in this "other" contest (and also how it may draw attention away from their main events)

    3. having so many people on the "organizing" end of things that information leaks out somehow and makes for unfair advantages

    rest assured, however, i am confident that at some point in the future (who knows, maybe at DC18) something like a "DEFCON Decalthalon" will become a reality. my best bet is that it may happen during a year when the bulk of the principal organizers all agree to put their traditional contests on hold, or down-size them to some degree, in order to focus more on this multi-faceted event.

    i have long been in love with this idea, however. rewarding teams for their diversity of skills and not just their fortitude and leet penetration skillz.

    (by the way, i don't want any of my above text or wording to give the impression that somehow i have ownership over this idea or that i thought it up first... i'm sure that the potential for such a challenge was kicking around in a number of people's heads long before now and of course a "multi-skill obstacle course" is nothing new in other sectors, as well. i'm hapy to continue aggregating some of the good ideas that are out there, and i'm always happy to share a drink with creative thinkers... so if you run a contest that could be part of something bigger, you can always feel freet to bounce an idea off me with the assurance that it won't leak out to the public.)

    Leave a comment:

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