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  • #16
    Re: Satisfaction with talks

    Originally posted by bascule View Post
    What if they're too poor to attend otherwise?
    A lot of people who come to DEFCON are too poor to attend, but they figure out a way to make it. DEFCON is a hacker conference, not a welfare program for speakers. If someone really wants to attend, they'll figure out a way to make it happen. If they truly can't, then I feel bad for them, but DEFCON shouldn't be in the business of subsidizing the "poor" (and how you would ever determine who is "poor" is beyond me).
    Last edited by theprez98; August 26, 2009, 20:21.
    "\x74\x68\x65\x70\x72\x65\x7a\x39\x38";

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    • #17
      Re: Satisfaction with talks

      Originally posted by theprez98 View Post
      A lot of people who come to DEFCON are too poor to attend, but they figure out a way to make it. DEFCON is a hacker conference, not a welfare program for speakers. If someone really wants to attend, they'll figure out a way to make it happen. If they truly can't, then I feel bad for them, but DEFCON shouldn't be in the business of subsidizing the "poor" (and how you would ever determine who is "poor" is beyond me).
      What he said.

      Seriously, there are plenty of people who I might find interesting, and subjects that I'd like to see, but they have to want to be there. I think that the "hacker culture" is perceived differently by each of us, depending on our age, and when we first found things. Who determines what the hacker culture is, please? Bascule? Thorn? Me?

      We've had people from the past, more than once, and although they haven't talked, the opportunity to sit down with them was always there. I think Captain Crunch has made it to plenty of defcons. Robert Morris Sr showed up for a few of them (and man, is he boh-ring). Simple Nomad has spoken more than once (and he certainly hails from the early days).

      I'd have been interested to hear Cliff Stoll speak, back in the day, but I don't know that he'd be interesting now (I'm re-reading The Cuckoo's Egg, which is still a good read, even though it's incredibly dated). I don't know that I'd ever want to hear "RU Sirius" speak; I know he's someone you like, but I'd rather hear "Weird Al" Yankovic any day of the week.

      If you want more retrospectives, I'd say Jason Scott's the guy. He's thorough, and an excellent editor, and has the instinct for interviewing that seems to be a dying art. His DVD set on the history of the BBS is one of my prized possessions.

      P.S. The option on your poll that I would have chosen, had it been offered, was:

      I attended zero talks because for me, Defcon is for hallway meetings where I see friends and acquaintances.

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      • #18
        Re: Satisfaction with talks

        Only addressing the topic of people that want to attend Defcon but can't afford it:

        Much of what you have at Defcon is community driven, and community supported.

        A person or people volunteer to run a contest or events, and after jumping through all the hoops, which just one test of their dedication to the contest or event, and the contest or event comes to life.

        People volunteer to speak, submit papers, and if selected, donate their time for almost no compensation.

        A person or people volunteer to host a party, and makes it happen.

        It seems to me, that the solution to nearly any problem like this would best come from the community as a *donation* not a mandatory slice off all receipts to subsidize people selected recipients for payment award by committee? vote? Bribery?

        A person or people could make individual funds as NPO (non-profit organization) created with the sole purpose of subsidizing *specific* people's trips to Defcon. They don't even have to be a speaker. Also, as a contingency plan, if the specific person does not attend Defcon, then all money donated to the fund would then be donated to some other specific charity stated up-front with full disclosure. Charities could be chosen like maybe some group's Defcon Party Fund, or the Toxic BBQ fund or something similar so people donating for a specific person's aid can know how the money would be spent if they don't appear at Defcon.

        This encourages people to donate to causes they personally find worthy instead of expecting everyone else to pay a cost even if they have no interest in the result. Another example of people in the community donating to the community, not paying more for a badge so money can be distributed for them.

        Not so long ago, there was a group of people that provided parties to Defcon people, and they did not see how they could have a party this year due to lack of funds. They asked for *donations* in exchange for VIP tags, and they actually got donation. (Please. Do not read this as any kind of unkind comment about the party organizers. I'm using that party as a good example of people coming together, not a bad one.) Certainly, such a thing would be difficult to do unless the group had demonstrated they do what they say, and aren't some people totally new to Defcon, looking to, "scam all the hackers." The fund raising was a success, even if hotel security did not agree with the kind of gathering that was supposed to unfold.

        Find someone that Defcon people trust enough with money for an NPO, and who also has an interest in seeing a specific person come to Defcon, and let them run with that like nearly any other thing at Defcon.

        If *you* want something, then how are *you* going to make it happen?
        (And don't say, "make other people do it for me." ) :-)

        You'll notice I did not change this into a political discussion, or mention parties, leaders or agendas. I stuck with what happens at Defcon, and what I've seen in my journey from my first defcon until DC17. Please avoid metaphor citations from a political space if you want to argue with or against the above content.

        Thanks!
        Last edited by TheCotMan; August 27, 2009, 06:16.

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        • #19
          Re: Satisfaction with talks

          Took it right out of my brain, Cot. A little (a lot) longer of a post than I was going to make, but the message I was going to put out there is nearly identical, i thank you for saving me the typing.
          "You have cubed asscheeks?"... "Do you not?"

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: Satisfaction with talks

            Originally posted by theprez98 View Post
            A lot of people who come to DEFCON are too poor to attend, but they figure out a way to make it.
            And how many of those people who attend Defcon despite financial troubles can give awesome talks?

            In the case of RU, it's not like the exchange is "You should go to Defcon!" "Defcon, what's Defcon?" It's more like: "You should go to Defcon" "I've been wanting to go to Defcon for years but I am poor and I don't have the money to attend." He hasn't figured out a way to attend. It sounds like you want to hold this against him? Speaking certainly seems like one of the possible ways he could attend. I don't know if he would attend if he could make money off of speaking or not. I have not proposed the idea to him personally. If you would hold it against him if he attended only because he could afford it by being compensated for speaking, I don't know what to say. If he decided to attend because he got compensated for speaking but didn't realize that was a possible option of his own behest and you held it against him because I solicited him to do so, I'm sorry, but that's a bit dickish.

            When CFP opens I'm certainly going to email him and ask if he's interested in submitting a talk. He didn't even reply to me this year when I emailed him, so maybe I'm just blowing smoke up my own ass. We'll see.

            I mean, honestly, I'm confused, someone explain it to me.

            Originally posted by TheCotMan
            People volunteer to speak, submit papers, and if selected, donate their time for almost no compensation.
            So I hosted an event this year, devoting a lot of personal time and money to it. I'd like to think the event was a success.

            I feel similarly for RU. If he wasn't able to make it to con on his own, even getting remuneration via speaking, I would be willing to donate my own money to pull it off, because I think RU would make that good of a speaker, a relevant speaker, and the kind of speaker I don't see at Defcon already.

            I honestly feel there's an audience for someone like him. Maybe I'm just crazy.
            Last edited by bascule; August 27, 2009, 01:32.
            45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B0
            45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B1
            [ redacted ]

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            • #21
              Re: Satisfaction with talks

              Originally posted by bascule View Post
              And how many of those people who attend Defcon despite financial troubles can give awesome talks?

              In the case of RU, it's not like the exchange is "You should go to Defcon!" "Defcon, what's Defcon?" It's more like: "You should go to Defcon" "I've been wanting to go to Defcon for years but I am poor and I don't have the money to attend." He hasn't figured out a way to attend. It sounds like you want to hold this against him? Speaking certainly seems like one of the possible ways he could attend. I don't know if he would attend if he could make money off of speaking or not. I have not proposed the idea to him personally. If you would hold it against him if he attended only because he could afford it by being compensated for speaking, I don't know what to say. If he decided to attend because he got compensated for speaking but didn't realize that was a possible option of his own behest and you held it against him because I solicited him to do so, I'm sorry, but that's a bit dickish.

              When CFP opens I'm certainly going to email him and ask if he's interested in submitting a talk. He didn't even reply to me this year when I emailed him, so maybe I'm just blowing smoke up my own ass. We'll see.

              I mean, honestly, I'm confused, someone explain it to me.



              So I hosted an event this year, devoting a lot of personal time and money to it. I'd like to think the event was a success.

              I feel similarly for RU. If he wasn't able to make it to con on his own, even getting remuneration via speaking, I would be willing to donate my own money to pull it off, because I think RU would make that good of a speaker, a relevant speaker, and the kind of speaker I don't see at Defcon already.

              I honestly feel there's an audience for someone like him. Maybe I'm just crazy.
              I didn't look at the CFP this year because I had no intention of submitting, but don't speakers get paid $300? And get in to the conference for free? $300 easily gets you a plane ticket to Vegas and it sounds like bascule would let him stay in his room so what's he too poor for, food? I am not being antagonistic on this because I don't have a stake one way or the other, just trying to understand.

              Me, golgo and a few others had a speaker we wanted to hear this year and our plan was to pay for her air fare and hotel room ourselves. Of course, we never got around to asking her if she was interested so the point was moot but all told it would have been 50-100 bucks each for those of us that were interested to "subsidize" her Vegas trip. I don't see anything wrong with this approach personally. Now, if she had wanted a further speaking fee above the $300 she was to get from DEF CON and the free travel/room that we were offering we'd have told her to piss off.
              perl -e 'print pack(c5, (41*2), sqrt(7056), (unpack(c,H)-2), oct(115), 10)'

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: Satisfaction with talks

                Originally posted by bascule View Post
                So I hosted an event this year, devoting a lot of personal time and money to it. I'd like to think the event was a success.
                Cool! :-)

                I feel similarly for RU. If he wasn't able to make it to con on his own, even getting remuneration via speaking, I would be willing to donate my own money to pull it off, because I think RU would make that good of a speaker, a relevant speaker, and the kind of speaker I don't see at Defcon already.

                I honestly feel there's an audience for someone like him. Maybe I'm just crazy.
                And that is great. Everyone has something they want to see at Defcon. Some people like the idea of this guy being here and others don't. Maybe you can find other people that agree with you and see if they are willing to contribute cash to helping him get here. He'd still need to submit a paper in the CFP and get it approved, but that is the same process that everyone else encounters when they want to speak at Defcon.

                In this way, you become a kind of activist for your interests and things you want to see added to Defcon, and if enough people agree with you and support you, then that idea may become a reality.

                Now, I shouldn't have to point this out, but anyone reading this may get the wrong ideas if I don't:

                The forums are not for advertising. Requests for cash, donations, and similar requests for support of something is an unsolicited request for time/money/support and that would be classified by me as spam. Just as with any kind of similar advertisement, or unsolicited request, be sure to contact a forum moderator for approval before you post your unsolicited advertisement. Any Defcon Forum moderator can approve it, or deny your request. There is always twitter for advertising, and you can also check with your local DCG. :-)

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                • #23
                  Re: Satisfaction with talks

                  Originally posted by Chris View Post
                  I didn't look at the CFP this year because I had no intention of submitting, but don't speakers get paid $300? And get in to the conference for free? $300 easily gets you a plane ticket to Vegas and it sounds like bascule would let him stay in his room so what's he too poor for, food? I am not being antagonistic on this because I don't have a stake one way or the other, just trying to understand.
                  That's exactly the idea I wanted to put into his head when the next CFP rolls around.
                  45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B0
                  45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B1
                  [ redacted ]

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                  • #24
                    Re: Satisfaction with talks

                    Originally posted by bascule View Post
                    That's exactly the idea I wanted to put into his head when the next CFP rolls around.
                    Don't get me wrong, I don't have a problem with people helping other people come to DEFCON, whether that's throwing some cash their way, helping with their transportation, letting them crash in their room, or whatever (and realistically, how could anyone be opposed to that). I just don't think the conference should be doing it.
                    "\x74\x68\x65\x70\x72\x65\x7a\x39\x38";

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: Satisfaction with talks

                      Originally posted by bascule View Post
                      That's exactly the idea I wanted to put into his head when the next CFP rolls around.
                      I think that sounds reasonable. Good luck to you sir.
                      perl -e 'print pack(c5, (41*2), sqrt(7056), (unpack(c,H)-2), oct(115), 10)'

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                      • #26
                        Re: Satisfaction with talks

                        Maybe someone, who can't otherwise afford to attend DEFCON, can submit a paper on finding ways to attend DEFCON on a budget.

                        Here, let me get you started:

                        1.) Room share.
                        2.) Ride share.
                        3.) Befriend a speaker and have him/her "gift" a badge.
                        4.) Etc.
                        --bc,

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