Google and China

[The Dark Tangent]

After reading this:
http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2010/...-to-china.html

It looks like Google has come to terms with what it means to do business in China, and isn't liking it. My feeling is one to many targeted attacks against their infrastructure did the trick.

From the post:

"These attacks and the surveillance they have uncovered--combined with the attempts over the past year to further limit free speech on the web--have led us to conclude that we should review the feasibility of our business operations in China. We have decided we are no longer willing to continue censoring our results on Google.cn, and so over the next few weeks we will be discussing with the Chinese government the basis on which we could operate an unfiltered search engine within the law, if at all. We recognize that this may well mean having to shut down Google.cn, and potentially our offices in China."

Remember, Google isn't the only one targets like this.

[Deviant Ollam]

Re: Google and China

Heh, you beat me to the punch, DT. Daisy Belle shot me this link earlier this evening and i meant to post a thread about it.

Personally, i'm glad we're seeing this shift, if it actually comes to pass. I am given to wonder if it has to do mostly with...

* their infrastructure getting attacked
* worries about public opinion in the face of China's actions
* deciding to "Do Less Evil"

... and i don't rightly know which reason i'd like to think is the primary one. as i say... it mostly remains to be seen how they wind up pursuing this, but it's a very interesting development, nonetheless.

Now all we have to see is Cisco and some of the other big players who contribute to China's human rights abuses do an about-face and we might just have some real progress.

[theprez98]

Re: Google and China

Google appears to be growing some balls. Time will tell if they actually follow through on their threat.

[bascule]

Re: Google and China

My only anticipated outcome is a withdrawal from China by Google. As I assume this will happen, mad props to Google for having the balls to pull out when the whore you're fucking turns out to be a bitch so stupid you want to slap her upside the face. She doesn't deserve your cum in her mouth. That is all.

[AgentDarkApple]

Re: Google and China

My only anticipated outcome is a withdrawal from China by Google. As I assume this will happen, mad props to Google for having the balls to pull out...

Harsh but true. And other US-based entities need to follow suit.

[theprez98]

Re: Google and China

HTTPS is now the default for gmail rather than just an option (the login page has long been https, of course, but this now encrypts the entire session).

[g3k_]

Re: Google and China

HTTPS is now the default for gmail rather than just an option (the login page has long been https, of course, but this now encrypts the entire session).

Awesome! I turned that on a while ago in my settings, I'm glad it's default now.

I've been catching up on all the RSS/Twitter buzz about this incident and like it was said earlier in the thread, it almost seems like it will come to a point where Google will pull out of China completely. I don't see them working with the Chinese government to allow uncensored searches that complies with Chinese law.

[Thorn]

Re: Google and China

Awesome! I turned that on a while ago in my settings, I'm glad it's default now.

I've been catching up on all the RSS/Twitter buzz about this incident and like it was said earlier in the thread, it almost seems like it will come to a point where Google will pull out of China completely. I don't see them working with the Chinese government to allow uncensored searches that complies with Chinese law.

Aren't "uncensored searches" and "complies with Chinese law" direct opposites?

[prot]

Re: Google and China

Let's hope they go through with their intentions of withdrawing from China. Just to make a point to other companies being attacked by "the Chinese" or other similar countries and DON'T have the balls to do something about it.

There has to come a point when someone says "Okay, this is it. We're done with getting screwed by you, we're gonna take actions now." And this may be that point and Google the one taking the actions.

[g3k_]

Re: Google and China

Aren't "uncensored searches" and "complies with Chinese law" direct opposites?

Yup, but that's from Google's mouth not mine :P

[shrdlu]

Re: Google and China

Personally, i'm glad we're seeing this shift, if it actually comes to pass. I am given to wonder if it has to do mostly with...

* their infrastructure getting attacked
* worries about public opinion in the face of China's actions
* deciding to "Do Less Evil"

... and i don't rightly know which reason i'd like to think is the primary one. as i say... it mostly remains to be seen how they wind up pursuing this, but it's a very interesting development, nonetheless.

I'm just barely becoming caffeinated, so the cynicism's going to be a bit blunt, sorry. Considering how crippled Google has been in China, and that they are not the top search engine (or even close), partly due to that crippling, I might venture that it's as much to do with "not going to show a profit" as it is "do less evil." The infrastructure attacks are certainly a reason, but I doubt strongly the other two.

It's a business. It's about market share, and profits. I don't fault them for that, but I also think that the reasons for standing up to CN are pragmatic, not virtuous.

[theprez98]

Re: Google and China

I'm just barely becoming caffeinated, so the cynicism's going to be a bit blunt, sorry. Considering how crippled Google has been in China, and that they are not the top search engine (or even close), partly due to that crippling, I might venture that it's as much to do with "not going to show a profit" as it is "do less evil." The infrastructure attacks are certainly a reason, but I doubt strongly the other two.

It's a business. It's about market share, and profits. I don't fault them for that, but I also think that the reasons for standing up to CN are pragmatic, not virtuous.

Market share numbers for China are difficult to come by, but I did find this:

Baidu 64.4%
Google.com 26.1%
(July '08)

This is clearly in line with your statement that they are not the top search engine (or even close), but it's not unsubstantial. Consider that 26% market share is more than both Yahoo and Bing combined in the United States (~24%).

For sure, businesses exist for market share and profits, but profits and virtue aren't necessarily mutually exclusive.

[SalusaSecondus]

Re: Google and China

From an economic perspective, all the motivation they need to pull out from China is if the cost of doing business there (Bad PR, Loss of IP, Security Response, etc.) is greater than their (expected) profits (which, from what I've heard, are low there). So, this could (to support shrdlu's cynicism) simply be a business decision + PR stunt. ("We're pulling out of China, how do we not make this look like a failure and retreat and possibly get some good will in the rest of the world ...?")

That said, I don't (completely) buy that argument for one reason only: Their public announcement that they have been hacked and that IP has been exfiltrated. This doesn't make for good PR and reads much more like an attempt to strike back at the Chinese Government, even at the expense of their own reputation. I think that Google may be deciding that a physical presence in China poses an unacceptable risk to their infrastructure and that they want other companies to realize how bad the threat is.

Personally, I'm hoping that more details become available both on what information was stolen (we already have guesses as to how, Adobe PDF 0-days) and on attack patterns on the email accounts. This problem might be far larger that anyone has realized yet because we don't yet have the information to correlate all of the potential incidents.

[The Dark Tangent]

Re: Google and China

Check out this older article talking speculating about Google exiting the Chinese market.. adds a new twist:


"Google's China Blues
Published: 21 Dec 2009 17:32:13 PST
Rumors have been flying about Google's future in China ever since the company's China head, Kai-Fu Lee, resigned in early September to start an incubator lab in Beijing. His departure seemed awfully abrupt. "

http://news.alibaba.com/article/deta...ina-blues.html

[theprez98]

Re: Google and China

Check out this older article talking speculating about Google exiting the Chinese market.. adds a new twist:


"Google's China Blues
Published: 21 Dec 2009 17:32:13 PST
Rumors have been flying about Google's future in China ever since the company's China head, Kai-Fu Lee, resigned in early September to start an incubator lab in Beijing. His departure seemed awfully abrupt. "

http://news.alibaba.com/article/deta...ina-blues.html

It sounds as if a combination of tough economics + difficult regulatory environment made it good business sense to start packing up and leaving. Perhaps the infrastructure attacks were just the last straw to break the camel's back.