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  • I'm not picking on Apple...but

    open development is a bad thing?

    explain please Mr. Jobs...

    http://gizmodo.com/5513525/ipad-dash...ser-experience
    Network Jesus died for your SYN

  • #2
    Re: I'm not picking on Apple...but

    Originally posted by bjaming View Post
    open development is a bad thing?

    explain please Mr. Jobs...

    http://gizmodo.com/5513525/ipad-dash...ser-experience
    The Mighty Jobs is 100% correct, from his perspective. Open development does contradict the user experience that Apple is providing/forcing upon their users.

    Just remember Apple's primary theme, "Be Different, just like everyone else".
    A third party security audit is the IT equivalent of a colonoscopy. It's long, intrusive, very uncomfortable, and when it's done, you'll have seen things you really didn't want to see, and you'll never forget that you've had one.

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    • #3
      Re: I'm not picking on Apple...but

      Even if our Joe Macintosh doesn't understand what 'Open' means, I have a suspicion that in the long-term things like the android platform are going to mean an end for this sort of business.

      Because really, hardware is dead. Everyone can make a cellphone, everyone can put a touch screen onit, everyone can make it have a 32gb card-slot, everyone can stick a camera on it... no I'm not going to refute there is a lot of r&d behind a new phone, but there's nothing special behind it. What makes the IPhone differ from the HTC Touch? The software. Why do I have a blackberry instead of another smart phone? I did like the tactile keyboard, but it's mostly the software inside it.

      Hardware is pumped out by china and do the same thing. Software is the only thing that can offer variety (with the exception of paradigm shifts). If Apple walls off developers, and other platforms welcome everyone, was ensuring "continuity" an actual feature to your user? I find it difficult to imagine popular applications diverge from the standards/framework for open platforms so much the user gets upset.

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      • #4
        Re: I'm not picking on Apple...but

        Its apple's design and strict adherence to the keeping it simple and elegant and refusing to change, eventually everyone else will catch up and get it. Microsoft seem to be looking at the apple way, which i hope they don't. microsoft are very geek/developer friendly, apple just aren't, but its working for them at the moment. Its similar principles to disney and ikea.

        They excel at marketing too. They completely change their stance every few years and do what they used to say they'd never do, but no one cares, because in essence people don't care, they know marketing is mostly fud but they the way it makes them feel, and thats apple the feel good shop.

        doesn't matter where the hardware is made, what matters is getting all of the components together, software, design and hardware working well enough. The iPhone is a god awful phone, but its really good at everything else, yet they're very popular phones. Because style over substance is better, and sweeting the deal with a nice fluid ui and app store etc just makes it good enough that you don;t want to run it over when it drops calls or has bad reception.

        open development can be bad, there's a lot of fragmentation, too many cooks and not enough sous/waiters for the customers. a lot of good things have come out of it, but they've usually had lots of backing from commercial success or a jobs like leader in the background. I can find a dozen open source programs that kinda do what i want, but not all of them does enough only to use it, if i had to spend time adding the features to everyone used, i'd never get anything done, plus it might go against the lead developers vision, so they branch it off into something else, rename it and it gets all political

        programmers tend to give away their free time a lot more than artists do, so a lot of stuff just ends looking really bad or poor ui designs that make it hard to use. again yes the whole don't like it make better tag kicks in but its unrealistic given the overwhelming numbers.

        i definitely dislike apples approach for me as a techie, but then i stick to windows mostly, although i am typing this on a mac book pro, simply because i'm eating breakfast and i feel bad i rarely use it.

        on the other hand having someone like apple maybe will make a segment of the computer market that is the designed for the masses and not techie, and hopefully the others will allow computers for technical people that aren't swamped by all the crap that the typical person needs to make it possible or them to use it..

        its like leno says about the prius, hybrids etc yes they suck to the car enthusiast but they're saving oil for the guzzlers and classic cars.
        - Null Space Labs

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        • #5
          Re: I'm not picking on Apple...but

          I'd argue that UI problems of the past aren't nearly as dominating as today, more so with things slowly moving to web-driven applications, and frameworks exist for interfaces (JQuery et all) and there are tools that pick colours that "look good" for you out there. I'm not saying artists aren't important, just that we have a lot of tools that allow for more-standard UI experiences.

          As for open development being a bad thing-- It can be, absolutely. But does anyone care about the garbage apps out there? Where's the droves of people buying the "I'm Rich" application? I don't see open development being the problem with applications not doing what you want, as much as it is a development issue it's self. If there's a team dedicated to building this application full time, it's probably going to be better than the one I write for a few hours on the weekend. Applications are open to the user to use, if they don't want it, they don't need to get it.

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          • #6
            Re: I'm not picking on Apple...but

            They're never that good, its just a fancy template really. It won't get you design or user experience that an artist will, and you still need icons, layout design etc. They're like any RAD tool, good upto a point, but everything looks samey and has the same inherrent design flaws, you simply just can't replace talent, they'll help a mediocre attempt look better, and so on, but silk purse its not.

            Few programmers can even come close to the level of GUI that a real UI artist can do, and its even rarer you'll find one that gets what the end user wants.



            Unfortunately you have to wade through the garbage to find the good stuff, sometimes it just easier to get something off the shelf, granted i went to fry's yesterday for a core i7 machine, i looked at the prebuilt and ended up just buying the components and throwing it together becuse i knew they'd be using a mix of good and bad components. But it's a lot easier to find good components to put something together at a store, its a lot harder to wade through google looking for something that'll beat a prebuilt. The machine i made is quiet, just had the bits i want and cost about the same as prebuilt, took me about 25 minutes to put it together, so that was a good experience.


            On the opposite side of it, and a little rant :) , i need a HDMI 1080P or better framebuffer capture card that'd take PC graphics card output for some enterprise stuff, so i searched around talked to a few datacenters and ended up with a $1000 blackMagic HD extreme card, after i had mutliple hour+ calls with their tech team.

            After a day and half hacking away at the damn thing they tell us, oh it doesn't do RGB only YUV, .... even though i'd asked, so we took care of that, then i spent another day and night trying to get the 1080P working, i got it really close, it was just slightly offest with a green bar, so when i fianlly got tech support again, another person tells me it doesn't do 1080P via HDMI.. at that point i've wasted the last 3 days screwing around with something that just should work, and that the people selling it should have a clear understanding of its abilities.

            I talked to AJA and a few others, and the rep said, nope it doesn't do that, which is a much better answer. I had three calls with BM's tech support, figuring out all the things we needed to do. The guy in the mac store had warned me the bm wasn't his choice, and to choose the aja, but the aja cost twice as much and actually does less of what i needed (which i found out later, so i had switched, i'd have been in worse shape)

            I did find a small company in the uk, had their distributor saturday overnight me a new card to try, promised to let me return if it didn't live it to the promises they made, rather than the mac/bM policy of you open it, you own it.

            So i guess unfortunately in the end it doesn't matter if its open or closed, if people rave or dis, its all YMMV, and it comes down to infrastructure and if your need is included in the venn diagram that application/device covers well, as well as the overall vision behind it, apples stuff is inviting because it just does a smaller subset really well. If you wander outside the velvet rope though, you're on your own.

            And if anyone wants to buy a very slightly used HDMI blackMagic HD extreme card , drop me a note ;)

            cheers..
            - Null Space Labs

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            • #7
              Re: I'm not picking on Apple...but

              By all means one of the biggest problems I have when writing an application is the UI. What I've done to leverage this (and something that is analogous to your hardware story) is take into consideration a design pattern such as MVC, and insist there must always be a Client - Server relationship that are clearly separate and do their own thing without any coss-dependency.

              For example, my recent project I've been working on I'm thinking of the UI as a straight data interface I would be able to do via telnet, web browser, desktop client, anything that can speak the protocol. The job of the client is just to deal with the user. This means, when the project is "done" I can hire a designer to build me a shiny UI, becuase I haven't mangled my "server" code in with the "client" code, and they can move things around however they would like because I've designed my server to work without any specific client. As long as data X gets sent, it works. I'm no artist, but I can hire an artist and let him know the specs for each data set returned. This is simmilar to the approach I've taken in designing the server, it's all modular (it's not a big 100 000 line file [I'm going to strangle my predecessor should I ever find him] that "does everything"). We run into a lot of "oh we can't change that" problems because we have to deal with code that is highly obtrusive to changes because it's all mixed in together such as: Okay, web page request to the PHP file lets start building the page, now we'll have the PHP generate the Javascript dynamically based on X, then we'll put JS code directly into the HTML nodes, then we'll keep doing these spaghetification tactics so I keep my job here forever.

              If open developers are able to design the "server" separate from the "client," then someone is able to re-build the client whenever we aren't happy with how it works. Just imagine, you could download a new client for Microsoft Word when they put in that Ribbon feature! Or, you're more used to the Lotus-Notes interface, so you can just use a client suited to that. You can even make your own clients.

              As for a massive pool of applications out there. we're fully capable of creating meta lists of applications, filtering them, ranking them, etc.

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              • #8
                Re: I'm not picking on Apple...but

                That's basically the X server model which is generally the one with the ugliest, hardest to use UI's around.

                Abstraction of code/data is always a good idea, but sometimes you can architect something that just won't fit into the designers idea (Real world timelines just don't allow it). Depending on what you're doing its better to preplan the application with the programmers, artists , designers etc before you start writing any code at all.

                Cloud rendering on the other hand :)
                - Null Space Labs

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                • #9
                  Re: I'm not picking on Apple...but

                  Originally posted by bjaming View Post
                  open development is a bad thing?

                  explain please Mr. Jobs...
                  The iPhone and iPad both support completely open development as well as unregulated distribution and sales of applications. It's called Cydia.
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                  • #10
                    Re: I'm not picking on Apple...but

                    Originally posted by bascule View Post
                    The jailbreaking community support completely open development as well as unregulated distribution and sales of applications. It's called Cydia.
                    Fixed it for you.

                    I saw a wonderfully snarky post today about the whole thing. Good for a laugh or two.

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                    • #11
                      Re: I'm not picking on Apple...but

                      Originally posted by SHA-hi View Post
                      Fixed it for you.
                      True enough, but the iPhone (and Pad by extension) jailbreaking community is quite awesome
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                      • #12
                        Re: I'm not picking on Apple...but

                        Originally posted by bascule View Post
                        True enough, but the iPhone (and Pad by extension) jailbreaking community is quite awesome
                        Basically I see this as a failure on apple's part to give people what they want. There are already better hardware systems for most of their market, some of which are open. If their business model keeps focusing on this battle that presents no real market advantage, they might as well just sign over their business to Google Android and the various hardware builders out of India/China (as I stated previously, software of devices is the future, the market hardly cares about hardware differences between two functionally similar devices).

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                        • #13
                          Re: I'm not picking on Apple...but

                          Originally posted by SHA-hi View Post
                          Basically I see this as a failure on apple's part to give people what they want.
                          I really don't care. All that matters to me is I can run whatever I want on my iPhone and Apple has absolutely no say.
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                          • #14
                            Re: I'm not picking on Apple...but

                            Originally posted by bascule View Post
                            I really don't care. All that matters to me is I can run whatever I want on my iPhone and Apple has absolutely no say.
                            Right, but you're taking advantage of the fact you are a "computer person" and know how to do that. What does our average person say? "Oh, jailbreaking, sounds hard.... hrmmm, I wonder if Jack knows how to do that... it sounds like I might have to read something..." or sometimes you just get "Yeah, I don't want to void the warranty." This walls off developers from the device who want to put apps out there (for people other than those of us practising the mysterious arts of software and wizardry). Yes, we can jailbreak it, but we really shouldn't have to. The fact people are doing this to make the device better, should be enough business-proof that this strategy is asinine.

                            I don't think anyone is worried about their ability to jailbreak as much as they are what this means to developers. Apple targets people who are mostly computer illiterate ("oh wow, macs are so much easier"), they're not going to try and figure out how to do something that sounds like it might be complicated.

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                            • #15
                              Re: I'm not picking on Apple...but

                              Originally posted by SHA-hi View Post
                              Right, but you're taking advantage of the fact you are a "computer person" and know how to do that. What does our average person say?
                              Given the massive popularity of the iPhone versus other smartphone platforms, they're probably happy about how much Apple has simplified the user experience. But I'm only speculating. I'm a power user who wants more out of my phone, and I don't find the 10 minutes it takes to hack an iPhone with redsn0w at all obtrusive.

                              I don't find the "Joe Blow" argument at all convincing, certainly not nearly as much as you trying to convince me why I should use an Android phone which is more open and provides more power user features by default as opposed to a hacked iPhone. Apple is targeting the Joe Blow audience with the iPhone and things which are detrimental to power users are generally advantageous to Joe Blow.

                              All that said, if you're posting on these forums and rocking an unhacked iPhone I'm really not sure what's wrong with you...
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