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The Dark Tangents Tamper Evident Contest

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  • #16
    Re: The Dark Tangents Tamper Evident Contest

    A great value would be in-line pictures and video, and moderated posting from teams and people. Researching software now..

    Originally posted by hexjunkie View Post
    I would think either a drupal or wiki based

    wiki would probably be the easiest to label each type of device under a catagory of defeated and not defeated

    Then you can add the documentation for each of the defeats that have been done so far.

    A wiki could also include any advancements over the year edited by the people doing the exploit.

    Perhaps a picture / video database with a link into the article

    I can see this growing into a major industry site due to the fact that I cannot find any other information on the subject.

    Just ideas, If you need help setting it up let me know in a PM.. I'll add it to the list of projects that I'm working on.
    PGP Key: https://defcon.org/html/links/dtangent.html

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    • #17
      Re: The Dark Tangents Tamper Evident Contest

      I would recommend a Wiki also. Since the items are somewhat numerous but still quite finite, having an encyclopedic entry for each defeat would be of value.

      I look forward to competing next year!
      The f*ck? Have you ever BEEN to Defcon? - chs

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      • #18
        Re: The Dark Tangents Tamper Evident Contest

        Originally posted by Dark Tangent View Post
        I want to thank Kive for helping out and making the on site operations for this contest work. He really stepped up and took control when I was too busy. Thanks man!
        Always a pleasure -- I'm happy to help, and I had a really great time working with Nikita, Stits, Thorn, Gonzo, etc... to make this a success, as well as all of the participants and curious bystanders that dropped by as we started "unveiling" everything that folks were working with.

        Also -- Gonzo: I left you out of the presentation credits, man. My apologies -- I appreciate you being there for this contest. I hope you'll forgive my leaving you out of the official mentions -- you were definitely around and appreciated.

        Originally posted by Dark Tangent View Post
        A great value would be in-line pictures and video, and moderated posting from teams and people. Researching software now..
        Personally, I think everyone responded well to the idea of some form-based submission for next year. Handling the USB/CD/e-mail/paper was a genuine pain in the butt this time around.

        My immediate thought is:

        1) Create a contest-specific website for submissions.
        2) Create a wiki for the world at large to add their own information, especially if we'll be doing this at other cons, and looking for externals to add their expertise.
        3) Have the contest staff (myself, stits, thorn -- gonzo, you have the time and desire for another go-around?-), work on managing the overall site and wiki to encourage as much participation as possible on documenting "defeats" of specific tamper-evident/proof technologies/products.

        ---

        Really, the big question in my mind is -how- we should go back to the manufacturers and advise them of defects in such a way that they can act to improve/remove their products. This is where we're really hoping to cause action, right? :)

        -kive

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        • #19
          Re: The Dark Tangents Tamper Evident Contest

          For those participating this year, first of all: THANKS! You folks rocked!:

          1) I -really- encourage all of you to send me feedback on what you loved and didn't love this year. I -promise- that DT and I will read all of the feedback you have on this contest. I have a couple of responses already, but I know there's a lot of folks out there that haven't sent them my way yet. You can PM them to me, or e-mail me at my username at my username .me. We'll be using those responses to help make sure that we're accomplishing our dual-goals of building a strong body of knowledge while also having a contest that is just fun as heck for you to participate in.

          2) When we started "unveiling" the parts that folks were working on, on day 2, we realized that a lot of the public would really love to have the ability to work on stuff at the table. I'd love to hear feedback from you on how we can make this successful for the teams and/or the public. Should we do time-trials on easy/medium level tech? Should we use Twitter to advertise extra-points contests for competing teams? What can you think of to make the table more interactive, and to involve as many folks as possible?

          3) Ideally, we'd like to create an environment in which some teams are working on their contest kits around the table next year -- can you suggest any ideas that would make this happen next year? Would you like to see common tools lying around, like HHV has? What could we do, as a contest, that would make you want to spend more time working out in the open where folks could watch on and catch a little of the excitement?

          As a contest team, we really want to make this contest as popular as possible, and involve as many folks as possible. We want to have serious competition-level teams going at this stuff, and we want the public to have a great time, too. We welcome all of your opinions, and appreciate the overwhelmingly positive feedback that we've received so far.

          Thanks,

          -kive

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          • #20
            Re: The Dark Tangents Tamper Evident Contest

            kive, thanks for letting our team turn in when we did. I know being Sat night it woulda been much easier to just say sorry, outta luck.

            I don't know what kinda room your going to be working with at the Rio next year but a table where non players can try their hand at some of the tape and stickers, maybe a couple of the envelopes would be cool. Having some people who know how to defeat the easy ones giving tips.

            Being able to upload the pictures, video and defeat forms would be super handy. I still have pictures that didn't get turned in.

            It comes back to having the room for it again but some designated tables for the players would be nice. We didn't prepare real well and ended up in our hotel room trying to cram 3 - 4 guys in the bathroom with sharp tools and solvents was an adventure all it's own.
            A well lit, designated work area, near the contest table, where folks who are interested can watch. I don't know if teams trying to peek at other teams would be an issue though.

            It was an absolute blast participating though. I'm really looking forward to playing/helping again next year. I've already been collecting some temper evident/proof stuff from local stores to play with.

            Zip
            9 dollars and 40 cents? That's an outrage! If I were you I wouldn't pay it! - Groucho Marx

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            • #21
              Re: The Dark Tangents Tamper Evident Contest

              If there are going to be multiple boxes next year, then perhaps having space so we can work on the easy/intermediate boxes in public, but then take the harder boxes away to work alone with our teams. This would also allow for the public to use the same space to play with boxes and/or tags after they watch the teams attempt the boxes.

              I can't speak for the rest of my team, but I would not have had a problem manning an area once the contest was over and playing with tags, explaining (read showing off) some of our teams bypass techniques to the public. While the judging was going on, some of the teams stood around discussing what they did with each other anyway. If we could give one or two members from each team, it could turn into its own HHV/Lock-picking village of sorts.

              During the judging, I would have loved to have a second change to experiment with some of the tags,taps that I thought we could have done a better job on, or perhaps attempted some of the other teams techniques.
              Vell, WiK's just zis guy

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              • #22
                Re: The Dark Tangents Tamper Evident Contest

                Originally posted by WiK View Post
                If there are going to be multiple boxes next year, then perhaps having space so we can work on the easy/intermediate boxes in public, but then take the harder boxes away to work alone with our teams. This would also allow for the public to use the same space to play with boxes and/or tags after they watch the teams attempt the boxes.

                I can't speak for the rest of my team, but I would not have had a problem manning an area once the contest was over and playing with tags, explaining (read showing off) some of our teams bypass techniques to the public. While the judging was going on, some of the teams stood around discussing what they did with each other anyway. If we could give one or two members from each team, it could turn into its own HHV/Lock-picking village of sorts.

                During the judging, I would have loved to have a second change to experiment with some of the tags,taps that I thought we could have done a better job on, or perhaps attempted some of the other teams techniques.
                I think that's a great solution. I know first thing I did was start digging up old hard drives when I got home... Still excited about trying that one out :-D Know it's been said, but mad props to you guys...

                I feel like we all took the boxes away from the contest area for about the same reason... it's a contest I'm sure returning teams will all be pretty much setup to take care of the easy boxes about the same way, with about the same skill level, and about the same points recieved, so I see no reason to shroud it with smoke and mirrors. That said, I would venture a guess that things like "The Motherfucking Professionals" acidic creation, or any mildly-possibly-controlled-substances would best be left away from the throngs of people with sticky fingers

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                • #23
                  Re: The Dark Tangents Tamper Evident Contest

                  Originally posted by esrever View Post
                  I think that's a great solution. I know first thing I did was start digging up old hard drives when I got home... Still excited about trying that one out :-D Know it's been said, but mad props to you guys...

                  I feel like we all took the boxes away from the contest area for about the same reason... it's a contest I'm sure returning teams will all be pretty much setup to take care of the easy boxes about the same way, with about the same skill level, and about the same points recieved, so I see no reason to shroud it with smoke and mirrors. That said, I would venture a guess that things like "The Motherfucking Professionals" acidic creation, or any mildly-possibly-controlled-substances would best be left away from the throngs of people with sticky fingers
                  Actually, we did all of our disassembly and the majority of our defeats (including the hyrochloric acid stuff) in the contest area. I dunno what you guys did, but finding a table and pointing all the dangerous chemicals at anyone else sitting there cleared the area right quick.

                  dg

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                  • #24
                    Re: The Dark Tangents Tamper Evident Contest

                    Originally posted by WiK View Post
                    If there are going to be multiple boxes next year, then perhaps having space so we can work on the easy/intermediate boxes in public, but then take the harder boxes away to work alone with our teams. This would also allow for the public to use the same space to play with boxes and/or tags after they watch the teams attempt the boxes.
                    Having nearby space to work on things is something that seems to be resounding with nearly everyone that is sending feedback our way, and I know DT really wants to have activity happening near the contest table -- I'll be rolling together all of the feedback that I'm seeing here on the forum, in my e-mail, via PM, and what folks have told me in-person, and passing that on to DT and Nikita. It makes sense to me to have a few tables around, though I'm not sure we'll justify a separate space as we see with HHV, but I have no clue what the layout will be like in the Rio, or how much space Pyro will have to play with. We hear you, and the suggestion definitely falls in line with our intentions.

                    Originally posted by WiK View Post
                    I can't speak for the rest of my team, but I would not have had a problem manning an area once the contest was over and playing with tags, explaining (read showing off) some of our teams bypass techniques to the public. While the judging was going on, some of the teams stood around discussing what they did with each other anyway. If we could give one or two members from each team, it could turn into its own HHV/Lock-picking village of sorts.
                    I can't tell you how much I love every aspect of this idea. One of the things that we noticed this year was that traffic at the contest table really picked up when we started laying out the various tamper-evident devices on the table. Unfortunately, because these were still "in play" we couldn't really hand them out or let people mess with them. I'd love to see quantities of the stuff used at DC18 at the table for the public to mess with at DC19. Likewise, we had the idea of having some sort of public participation contests -- maybe speed trials on some sort of tag set, integration with other contests (scavenger hunt, gringo, etc...) -- if anyone has ideas on how we can increase public participation, we're all ears. The more that we can demonstrate and let people see how easy these devices are to defeat, hands-on, the better we will do with increasing awareness of how these things are readily defeated with a little knowledge, skill, and tools, and thus -- we can help motivate the manufacturers to retire weak products and replace them with effective ones.

                    I also loved having some of the teams around the table while we were judging -- both for the transparency it provides, for the two-way feedback, and the good-natured information sharing that was going on. I absolutely love the idea of having members of the various teams hanging around, especially demonstrating defeats to the public -- quite a few people asked when we would be doing demo's -- that's something we should definitely consider for DC19. I also personally think the material is original and diverse enough that we might be able to get away with a demo panel for DC19, and while I will put forth the idea, that's really up to DT and Nikita, and whatever powers that be that decide such things, as well.

                    Originally posted by WiK View Post
                    During the judging, I would have loved to have a second change to experiment with some of the tags,taps that I thought we could have done a better job on, or perhaps attempted some of the other teams techniques.
                    We didn't do a very good job of communicating this, and no team or individual took advantage, but our intention was to allow folks to return seals with a defeat form, to acquire a new seal. A big part of this is establishing a body of knowledge -- so the guiding priorities are a) letting everyone have a fun time, b) creating a body of knowledge, c) disseminating that information. As long as folks know why they did worse than they think they could, we had no objection to folks trying to do a better job.

                    Likewise, if you want to play around, nearly everything that we used was available from the U-Line catalog. U-Line should be happy to provide samples, and their prices at quantity are actually pretty reasonable, as well.

                    We'll be more clear in the future in letting folks know whether or not they're permitted repeats and the like, so all of you can take advantage of this.

                    Thanks to -everyone- for the great feedback so far -- I might not be replying to all of it, but I am seeing everything, and every point will be rolled into feedback for the contest crew (especially DT) to review. We have every intention of making this contest as fun and illuminating as possible, and every one of us really appreciates your participation and corresponding feedback!

                    Thanks,

                    -kive

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: The Dark Tangents Tamper Evident Contest

                      Originally posted by Ziptie View Post
                      kive, thanks for letting our team turn in when we did. I know being Sat night it woulda been much easier to just say sorry, outta luck.
                      No worries at all -- just glad we were able to sync up. I'd rather have some turn-in than no turn-in. Likewise, there were a couple of teams that turned in late, and a couple that turned in on Saturday night due to early departures -- we ended up having time to judge everything, so we made the call to go ahead and judge everything that was turned in, since the final top-standings weren't impacted.

                      Originally posted by Ziptie View Post
                      I don't know what kinda room your going to be working with at the Rio next year but a table where non players can try their hand at some of the tape and stickers, maybe a couple of the envelopes would be cool. Having some people who know how to defeat the easy ones giving tips.
                      I know the public really started drooling when they saw Def Con emblazoned on the tags -- folks kept wanting to snatch those left and right. I'd love to find something similar that we can easily hand out to folks that want to take a whack at it. If we can find something that appears difficult, but is easily circumvented to the point where it's reusable -- like the long metal tags that Team Hactar defeated with the magnets, I think a lot of people will get awfully excited. Likewise, I really dig the idea of getting folks interested -- a lot of the people we'd talk to actually hung around for 15-30 minutes, just based on the "show and tell" that was lying on the table, which was fairly limited from a participation angle.

                      Originally posted by Ziptie View Post
                      Being able to upload the pictures, video and defeat forms would be super handy. I still have pictures that didn't get turned in.
                      If you wouldn't mind -- go ahead and upload those somewhere, so we can use them when we write up all of the documentation on how teams approached everything, how they succeeded and failed, etc... :)

                      Originally posted by Ziptie View Post
                      It comes back to having the room for it again but some designated tables for the players would be nice. We didn't prepare real well and ended up in our hotel room trying to cram 3 - 4 guys in the bathroom with sharp tools and solvents was an adventure all it's own.
                      A well lit, designated work area, near the contest table, where folks who are interested can watch. I don't know if teams trying to peek at other teams would be an issue though.
                      I don't want to limit teams by making them work on things around the table, but I'd love to encourage activity and information-sharing. I also understand that teams at higher levels won't want to have their tricks known until all teams have turned-in. At the same time, I really loved that the "Have You Seen My Box" team limited themselves to what they could find in the hotel room -- that kind of ingenuity wouldn't work in the contest area.

                      Anyways, having more space for folks to work at is a common theme, and as long as it looks like we'll actually *use* more space if we get it, I think the idea makes a lot of sense.

                      Originally posted by Ziptie View Post
                      It was an absolute blast participating though. I'm really looking forward to playing/helping again next year. I've already been collecting some temper evident/proof stuff from local stores to play with.
                      Awesome! We're glad you had a good time. If you find anything particularly novel along the lines of tamper-proof, feel free to let us know. Who knows -- we might use it for DC19 or another contest. :)

                      Thanks,

                      -kive

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: The Dark Tangents Tamper Evident Contest

                        Sorry for the lag. Works been Hell and vacations been far away.
                        I'll collect the pics I have and that my team mates took and msg you once they are up.

                        Zip
                        9 dollars and 40 cents? That's an outrage! If I were you I wouldn't pay it! - Groucho Marx

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: The Dark Tangents Tamper Evident Contest

                          Awesome, thanks!

                          Originally posted by Ziptie View Post
                          Sorry for the lag. Works been Hell and vacations been far away.
                          I'll collect the pics I have and that my team mates took and msg you once they are up.

                          Zip
                          PGP Key: https://defcon.org/html/links/dtangent.html

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