U.S. Intelligence Analyst Arrested in Wikileaks Video Probe

[AccessDenied]

Re: U.S. Intelligence Analyst Arrested in Wikileaks Video Probe

When it comes down to it, it seems manning simply wanted attention. There's no way he could have read through 260,000 cables, those were obviously sent off just because he could do it. If he had a moral issue, or thought that someone acted in the wrong and should be punished, then there a few different military channels he could've made reports to that would have the clearance to see the information.

Contrary to popular belief military channels do work. If he wanted, he could've went to a JAG office, and spoken with a lawyer who's more familiar with military law then WikiLeaks, and then a JAG, with clearance to view the information who wouldn't put countless lives at risk, could then view the footage, and open a proper investigation into what happend, who was responsible, etc.

I know the first thing someone will say is that nothing would happen because the military would cover it up. I can promise you that the military is very good about investigating and prosecuting any and all illegal actions, and had this been brought to the proper channels, someone would be in jail for a long time if they deserved it.

The other point that may be brought up is that if it went through military channels then the rest of the world would be left out of the fact that a war crime may or may not have been committed. Military hearings are as public as any other court case. It would be the same if a group of guys outside of military authority had committed the same crime. What most people with this argument fail to realize is that these were the actions of a small group of men doing what they felt they needed to do at the time. Yes, they're under US military authority, but this was a tactical decision, not a strategic policy. People make mistakes on a daily basis, it's not the fault of entire country when they do that. If the people or persons involved in a crime are charged and sentenced, then what should be done is done.

Someone mentioned it earlier, but it deserves to be mentioned again. Nine out of ten times the information isn't classified to protect the information, but to protect the source. How many sources do you think were used to collect 260,000 pieces of information. That could be thousands of human lives, thousands of electronic devices, and who knows what else that will be killed or destroyed due to a leak like that. If the information Manning claimed to have sent out was released world wide, it may cause absolutely no harm, or it may cause tens of thousands of people to be fired, arrested, killed, etc.

[hackajar]

Re: U.S. Intelligence Analyst Arrested in Wikileaks Video Probe

If you are that concerned with a document / video / cable that you see in a Classified area, why not submit a precise FOIA request to have it released? (Without classified details in request of course). Typically FOIA requests will get turned down if detailed information is not provided. This has been used by reported with "sources" time and time again. Why risk it? He should have been more diplomatic if he REALLY felt "everyone should know about this".

NOTE: Manning is going to get what he deserves, years of peeling potato's (or modern day equivalent)

[theprez98]

Re: U.S. Intelligence Analyst Arrested in Wikileaks Video Probe

This is what Emmanuel Goldstein/2600/HOPE sent out about this whole mess; obviously trying to generate as much controversy as possible. Needless to say, it is very one-sided.

In a story that continues to get more interesting with each passing day, one of our keynote speakers for The Next HOPE is said to be in great danger of being apprehended or worse by the United States government after a source of sensitive information was arrested.

Our keynote speaker, Julian Assange of Wikileaks, published a video back in April that showed U.S. troops firing on unarmed Reuters journalists in Baghdad, killing them and wounding a number of others. Attempts by Reuters to get this video through the Freedom of Information Act had failed. It was only after it was sent to Wikileaks that the truth came out and a major scandal followed.

But it didn't end there. It seems that the alleged source of this particular leak had struck up a conversation with someone in the hacker community named Adrian Lamo. According to chat transcripts provided by Lamo, Army intelligence specialist Bradley Manning admitted to the leak along with one other video that has yet to be released. That video supposedly shows the
2009 Garani air strike in Afghanistan which killed dozens of civilians. But there was still more. According to a report in Wired, who claim to have copies of the chat transcripts, Manning had also sent 260,000 diplomatic cables to Wikileaks. This was supposedly the point at which Lamo felt he had no choice but to turn Manning in, according to the Wired story. Meanwhile Wikileaks will not confirm whether or not Manning is a source and also claims to not have 260,000 diplomatic cables. And that's where it all stands now.

So what does this all mean? According to a report in the Daily Beast, it means Julian Assange is a marked man. In fact, former Pentagon Papers whistleblower Daniel Ellsberg said Assange was "absolutely" in danger and should "stay out of the U.S." Meanwhile, in another report, an anonymous U.S. official was quoted as saying of Assange, "We'd like to know where he is." JUST TODAY (16 June 2010), we were able to verify through sources that there is "no question whatsoever" that Assange would be detained for questioning were he to arrive anywhere in the United States.

Assange is scheduled to give The Next HOPE Saturday keynote on July 17 in New York City. To make things even more interesting, Lamo has also been planning on appearing at the conference and may now wind up facing a hacker community who views his actions with, to put it mildly, disappointment. Lamo claims he was put in an impossible situation and is actually a supporter of Wikileaks, saying he even contributed money to the organization in the past.

That's pretty much the story as it stands now. One person is in prison, another is in fear of arrest or even physical harm, while a third is being ostracized by much of the hacker world. We have not been immune from this, having been subjected to a denial of service attack the day after the story broke, ostensibly because of Lamo's loose affiliation with 2600 as head of our Facebook group, among other things. But that is a relatively small price compared to the real hell being experienced by those involved firsthand.

We need to be clear on one thing. We find it reprehensible that Assange, a journalist whose only mission is to reveal the truth and protect sources, has to be subjected to this type of harassment. Wikileaks embodies all that is sacred to the hacker mentality: freedom of speech and of information, anonymity for sources, and a dedication to getting the story out, above all else. This is why Assange was chosen as one of our keynote speakers and we believe we all can and will learn a great deal from his words. That said, we will not encourage any speaker to put themselves in harm's way for us or for anybody. But we will expend every effort to make sure that they are not silenced and that their message will be heard by our attendees. We call upon (but hardly expect to hear back from) the State Department and federal authorities to ensure that Julian Assange can travel freely to our country without harassment or detainment. We ask that you help us by spreading the message "Let Julian Speak!" far and wide. If nothing else, the world needs to know that such intimidation will not go unnoticed.

We also intend to do everything possible to support and strengthen the Wikileaks organization. That includes helping to fundraise, establishing links with other communities, and getting HOPE attendees to volunteer their services. We can think of no group more worthy of this level of support, especially in light of these recent developments.

As for the controversy itself, we will not avoid it. You can count on this being a hot topic at The Next HOPE, wherever the story happens to take us by then. As always, you can count on HOPE being lively, provocative, and above all else, relevant.

[theprez98]

Re: U.S. Intelligence Analyst Arrested in Wikileaks Video Probe

wearing of a uniform earns you honor, respect, and admiration. it is not a prerequisite, however, for freedom of speech. let's not try to pretend that people don't have the "right" to express whatever they feel simply because they haven't served.

One who has not been in combat certainly has a right to express their opinion; but their comments will be taken with a grain of salt, and perhaps not as seriously. That doesn't make it right or correct, but that is the reality of the situation.

some of our allies (well, our only ally) in the Middle East routinely approves massive shelling and air strikes into populated civilian areas when they have actionable intelligence about the location of known bad actors and terrorists. At times, the collateral damage is on a scale of dozens of innocents killed in the process of taking out one (admittedly legit) target.

Ah yes, Israel. I will not delve into politics except to say that the situation is far more complex than you suggest. Hamas, and Hezbollah have purposely created "populated civilian areas" to hide themselves in, expressly so we can be outraged when civilians get killed. These terrorist groups are deeply ingrained into the community; they provide schools, hospitals, etc., things that appear to legitimize them, but also tie them to the community. They also have very sophisticated press operations. The real outrage should be that these terrorists use innocent civilians as human shields, much as radical Islamists in Iraq and elsewhere have often used mosques as places from which to launch attacks.

[hexjunkie]

Re: U.S. Intelligence Analyst Arrested in Wikileaks Video Probe

Deviate, I understand that I may have posted some heavy handed words, but my words were in relation to the exact phrase "trigger happy pricks" and to the previous phrase that manning wasn't acting as a robot, implying that our military is comprised of robots.

Like I said in my post, I cannot speculate on military service, and I made the fatal flaw of not remembering that the DefCon community is international, that is my fault. Please forgive my error of judgement there. I have strong beliefs that Thorn was accurate about when people can sit behind the safety of a monitor or from the comfort of their couch and make statements that this or that could/should or would be different if. I don't play in what ifs. I am working stricly from what I saw in the video, and I saw clearly armed persons walking the street in a time of war, I saw a van stop and try to help the wounded, and I heard the pilots ask for permission to engage every time they fired. I do trust in the chain of command. I also know from my own personal experience that every effort is taken to prevent civilian casualties. In the case here there is no way that the gunner could have known that there were children in the van, the van did know that it was an active war zone, I put the blame squarely on the people who brought the children into an active fire fight. Again my opinion in casualties has never faultered, I feel bad for them and their families, and I believe every effort should be exhausted to avoid hitting them, but for as long as there will be war there there will be innocent blood spilt.

Again I am sorry for my opinion being expressed and causing any problems, I am happy to see that people are not taking it out of context. I am sorry for any offense caused, but my feelings are strong in this topic so I will err on what has been said, and I will attempt to not say any thing else for the betterment of this particular conversation.

I will be more than happy to sit down and discuss this over a beer at the forum meets or anywhere else at con! I look forward to seeing you all there.

[Thorn]

Re: U.S. Intelligence Analyst Arrested in Wikileaks Video Probe

i'm fairly certain Rhenium was speaking about the innocent family who was passing by in the minivan and who were shot at when attempting to help someone.

I understand that, and specifically mentioned the children being used for cover. The adults were attempting to recover weapons in addition to helping the other insurgents.

again, i feel that there is a sliding scale here... exactly how much collateral damage? some of our allies (well, our only ally) in the Middle East routinely approves massive shelling and air strikes into populated civilian areas when they have actionable intelligence about the location of known bad actors and terrorists. At times, the collateral damage is on a scale of dozens of innocents killed in the process of taking out one (admittedly legit) target.

just saying, there is a point at which "collateral damage" is not ok, wouldn't you agree? i'm not disagreeing with any specific example here... but trying to keep people away from such hard-and-fast absolutism.

Nope, I have to disagree that there is a point that it's not OK. As you say, "collateral damages" are always on a sliding scale. What amount of such losses are acceptable is a horrible decision to make, but sometimes it must be made in balance of what the losses might be to your own troops and the value of taking out the target.

Truman made the decision to take out whole cities with relatively low tactical value, just to push a strategy that saved an estimated 1 million casualties on the sides of the Allies. That seems to be about the worst decision to have been forced to make, ever, but I still am of the opinion he made the correct one.

That said, again i feel it might be a little better if folk understood more where her comments were coming from. I happen to believe that she was speaking (admittedly in a very animated way) with specific disdain for the violation of the rules of engagement that took place in this specific video.

Again, I'm going to have to disagree. I'm not sure any ROE were violated. There were insurgents armed with RPGs. The gunship crew reported on what they saw and were given clearance to fire. This happened several times during the course of the video. It's pretty extreme to call people "trigger happy pricks" when they clear weren't just acting unilaterally, but were describing the situation as they watched it unfold in front of them, and were getting proper authorization down the chain of command to take out armed enemies.

Since the "Collateral Murder" video came out, there have been some analyses done by others. While some were extreme in the opposite direction (i.e. 'kill 'm all and let god sort 'em out"), for the most part, most were much more balanced that the Wikileaks version. Some were done by those with similar combat experience, who tend to see this a acceptable action. I'll take the word of an experienced observer over an inexperienced politicized commentator any day,

I know Rhenium personally and am hard-pressed to believe that she is the type to make across-the-board comments in such a negative way. i think the wording just came across badly, in a topic-area that already makes emotions run a little hot to begin with.

Fair enough, but personally, I think Hexjunkie hit on something. If you haven't been in a firefight, it's damned easy to be a Monday morning quarterback. The problem here -in my opinion- is a misunderstanding of people who don't understand the specific engagement, the more generalized daily issues in this particular conflict in or combat in general, and swallowed the heavily edited analysis published by Wikileaks hook, line, and sinker.

Also, a lot of the misunderstanding also comes -again, in my opinion- from people who get very emotional about the "innocents", namely the Rueter's reporter and cameraman, and the children.

The children where being used as cover as was previously mentioned. I've read at least two reports that indicate weapons were being taken with the wounded into the van, and I've also read some reports of rounds being fired from the van.

According to at least one (unsubstantiated) source, I've heard the camera crew remained despite being given warning about the danger of being with the insurgents. Also, several reports have said that the the Rueter's crew apparently supplying the insurgents with tactical information by recording coalition forces movements and locations and immediately replaying the video to the insurgents. (Similar actions have apparently been observed in Iraq as a common tactic to allow an RPG operator to select a target-specific warhead and preset the weapon's sights, thus minimizing the operator's exposure prior to firing the RPG.) If that is true, and I understand much of the video recovered from the camera supports this theory, that doesn't exactly make the Rueter's crew neutral observers.

[Deviant Ollam]

Re: U.S. Intelligence Analyst Arrested in Wikileaks Video Probe

Please. "Innocents" armed with RPGs? You ought to at least look at the facts.

i'm fairly certain Rhenium was speaking about the innocent family who was passing by in the minivan and who were shot at when attempting to help someone.

until anyone has been under fire or has been in a war situation, nobody has the right to speak about anything close to a higher standard. To do so is a disgrace to anyone who has served for the military or served over seas in a war situation.

wearing of a uniform earns you honor, respect, and admiration. it is not a prerequisite, however, for freedom of speech. let's not try to pretend that people don't have the "right" to express whatever they feel simply because they haven't served.

I personally would rather collateral damage occur than one American solider life be lost

again, i feel that there is a sliding scale here... exactly how much collateral damage? some of our allies (well, our only ally) in the Middle East routinely approves massive shelling and air strikes into populated civilian areas when they have actionable intelligence about the location of known bad actors and terrorists. At times, the collateral damage is on a scale of dozens of innocents killed in the process of taking out one (admittedly legit) target.

just saying, there is a point at which "collateral damage" is not ok, wouldn't you agree? i'm not disagreeing with any specific example here... but trying to keep people away from such hard-and-fast absolutism.

I will end my rant by saying that I am glad that my friends could give up their lives so that you can sit here and bash

Rhenium is not from the USA, so the specific sacrifices of your brothers and sisters in uniform have no direct bearing on her freedoms.

That said, again i feel it might be a little better if folk understood more where her comments were coming from. I happen to believe that she was speaking (admittedly in a very animated way) with specific disdain for the violation of the rules of engagement that took place in this specific video.

I know Rhenium personally and am hard-pressed to believe that she is the type to make across-the-board comments in such a negative way. i think the wording just came across badly, in a topic-area that already makes emotions run a little hot to begin with.

[goathead]

Re: U.S. Intelligence Analyst Arrested in Wikileaks Video Probe

ignore: caffeine issue, misfire.

[theprez98]

Re: U.S. Intelligence Analyst Arrested in Wikileaks Video Probe

[RANT]

I am not going to speculate on your military past nor the service of any of the members on this board. I will say that until anyone has been under fire or has been in a war situation, nobody has the right to speak about anything close to a higher standard. To do so is a disgrace to anyone who has served for the military or served over seas in a war situation.

If people want our solders to hold to a "higher standard" or to not serve like "robots" then by all means take up arms and join my brothers in the fight you believe should be more civil, then come back and speak about your experiences. If you feel you can talk the gun out of an assailants hand while they are hiding behind a child then please YOU do that. I, however, will take my rifle and attempt to avoid hitting the civilian, but I'll kill anyone who would attempt to hurt my brother even if that coward chose a child as a human shield.

I personally believe that our military, as a whole, is held to a higher standard; and in most cases it achieves those standards. In some cases bad intel or a coward uses an innocent as a human shield. In those cases I am sorry for that family's loss, and it is regrettable that their life had to be given up, but I personally would rather collateral damage occur than one American solider life be lost because people back home can't stomach the truth. The honest truth is that tactics have gotten better, intel has gotten better, training has gotten better, and our soldiers are better than they have ever been at any point in history. War is heinous, there is no glory, there is only a bloody mess where the innocent will die and people will suffer. Either you accept this fact or we back off and you see what real war is like first hand. I do not agree with the war, I believe all war is useless and a tragic waste of life. With that said I would rather see the fight elsewhere than in my back yard, and to this day I will still die to ensure the safety of our country. I will also support my brothers in arms until they are all home safe and sound. I will always mourn the fallen soldiers and I will never shed a tear for any enemy (foreign or domestic) that gets in the way of a soldier and the victory that his or her commander in chief has ordered.

I will end my rant by saying that I am glad that my friends could give up their lives so that you can sit here and bash them because they don't adhere to your "higher standard".

[/RANT]

Well said, you pretty much said everything I typed and then deleted this morning. :-)

[hexjunkie]

Re: U.S. Intelligence Analyst Arrested in Wikileaks Video Probe

I am not going to turn this into a flame war, so I will keep this short and not reply to further posts.

No one expects any kind of decency from the Taliban so we are not surprised by what they do. The US army holds (should hold) itself to a higher standard, so it is all the more galling when this so brazenly (hypocritically) occurs.

<End of transmission...>

[RANT]

I am not going to speculate on your military past nor the service of any of the members on this board. I will say that until anyone has been under fire or has been in a war situation, nobody has the right to speak about anything close to a higher standard. To do so is a disgrace to anyone who has served for the military or served over seas in a war situation.

If people want our solders to hold to a "higher standard" or to not serve like "robots" then by all means take up arms and join my brothers in the fight you believe should be more civil, then come back and speak about your experiences. If you feel you can talk the gun out of an assailants hand while they are hiding behind a child then please YOU do that. I, however, will take my rifle and attempt to avoid hitting the civilian, but I'll kill anyone who would attempt to hurt my brother even if that coward chose a child as a human shield.

I personally believe that our military, as a whole, is held to a higher standard; and in most cases it achieves those standards. In some cases bad intel or a coward uses an innocent as a human shield. In those cases I am sorry for that family's loss, and it is regrettable that their life had to be given up, but I personally would rather collateral damage occur than one American solider life be lost because people back home can't stomach the truth. The honest truth is that tactics have gotten better, intel has gotten better, training has gotten better, and our soldiers are better than they have ever been at any point in history. War is heinous, there is no glory, there is only a bloody mess where the innocent will die and people will suffer. Either you accept this fact or we back off and you see what real war is like first hand. I do not agree with the war, I believe all war is useless and a tragic waste of life. With that said I would rather see the fight elsewhere than in my back yard, and to this day I will still die to ensure the safety of our country. I will also support my brothers in arms until they are all home safe and sound. I will always mourn the fallen soldiers and I will never shed a tear for any enemy (foreign or domestic) that gets in the way of a soldier and the victory that his or her commander in chief has ordered.

I will end my rant by saying that I am glad that my friends could give up their lives so that you can sit here and bash them because they don't adhere to your "higher standard".

[/RANT]

[Rhenium]

Re: U.S. Intelligence Analyst Arrested in Wikileaks Video Probe

Please. "Innocents" armed with RPGs? You ought to at least look at the facts.

While the Reuters reporter and cameraman were apparently just doing their jobs, they were with an armed band, and were facing the same dangers as other frontline reporters. It's interesting to note that when the insurgents fire upon and hit reporters who are with US troops, no one bitches about the insurgents not following the proper ROE.

As to the children involved, it's a tragedy, but blame the people who brought them into an area where there was a live firefight and were using them for cover.

I am not going to turn this into a flame war, so I will keep this short and not reply to further posts.

No one expects any kind of decency from the Taliban so we are not surprised by what they do. The US army holds (should hold) itself to a higher standard, so it is all the more galling when this so brazenly (hypocritically) occurs.

<End of transmission...>

[Thorn]

Re: U.S. Intelligence Analyst Arrested in Wikileaks Video Probe

Actually the people who got killed here were innocent Iraqi's gunned down in cold blood by trigger happy pricks.

Please. "Innocents" armed with RPGs? You ought to at least look at the facts.

While the Reuters reporter and cameraman were apparently just doing their jobs, they were with an armed band, and were facing the same dangers as other frontline reporters. It's interesting to note that when the insurgents fire upon and hit reporters who are with US troops, no one bitches about the insurgents not following the proper ROE.

As to the children involved, it's a tragedy, but blame the people who brought them into an area where there was a live firefight and were using them for cover.

[theprez98]

Re: U.S. Intelligence Analyst Arrested in Wikileaks Video Probe

Actually the people who got killed here were innocent Iraqi's gunned down in cold blood by trigger happy pricks.

Why don't you tell us how you really feel!

I actually tried to type a response to this, but I don't even think it's worth it.

[Rhenium]

Re: U.S. Intelligence Analyst Arrested in Wikileaks Video Probe

Even if something deserves to be released, there are ways to do it. In some cases the info is hardly a secret, but the way the information was gathered is a secret. So we know what a bad guy had for lunch yesterday. Now they go kill their caterer and kitchen staff because of the leak. There is nothing secret about the meal, but the source is what is being protected. This is the most common sort of secret stuff that I have come in contact with.

His dissemination of this data can get people killed.

Actually the people who got killed here were innocent Iraqi's gunned down in cold blood by trigger happy pricks.

[astcell]

Re: U.S. Intelligence Analyst Arrested in Wikileaks Video Probe

Even if something deserves to be released, there are ways to do it. In some cases the info is hardly a secret, but the way the information was gathered is a secret. So we know what a bad guy had for lunch yesterday. Now they go kill their caterer and kitchen staff because of the leak. There is nothing secret about the meal, but the source is what is being protected. This is the most common sort of secret stuff that I have come in contact with.

His dissemination of this data can get people killed.