U.S. Intelligence Analyst Arrested in Wikileaks Video Probe

[Deviant Ollam]

Re: U.S. Intelligence Analyst Arrested in Wikileaks Video Probe

now that this has all happened... what do you think would be the most ethical thing for WikiLeaks to do with the cables? i surely have my own opinions, and am happy to share them in a bit. i'd also like to hear what others have to say, too.

[Thorn]

Re: U.S. Intelligence Analyst Arrested in Wikileaks Video Probe

Another story about this, and Lamo talks about coming to DefCon this year.

http://www.sacbee.com/2010/06/13/281...s-himself.html

[g3k_]

Re: U.S. Intelligence Analyst Arrested in Wikileaks Video Probe

I'm not going to go into rights or wrongs here.

From the chatlog, Adrian doesn't look good. He seems to show more of a morbid curiosity than an interest in catching a guy who leaked really sensitive data.

Had this guy not blabbed, which he was going to (you could tell by the way he was talking, he seemed very eager to please AL) Lamo was just the sudden popular catalyst, I think he would of never been noticed and never would of got caught. From his perspective, it sounds like things 'on the ground' are not so secure. Which makes me weep a little bit for our military.

He said he uploaded the video in February and they didn't catch him till now when he opened his mouth. I'm sorry, but the US government doesn't seem to be as on top of things as I had hoped. Perhaps this needed to happen in order to set an example.

I don't hate Manning, I kind of pity him. He screwed up on levels of traitor proportions, but he felt like he was doing the country a service. He went about this the wrong way. He could of gone to NK or China with the data he had, probably made some cash. He did it in a way that he thought was benevolent. I'm not saying he's right and that it isn't treason, cause it clearly is.

Think about this: how many leaks are there that we do not hear about, the government does not catch the source, and the information is sent to a hostile enemy state or terrorist organization for cash?

[theprez98]

Re: U.S. Intelligence Analyst Arrested in Wikileaks Video Probe

Wired has now posted excerpts from the chat logs between Manning and Lamo.

[TheCotMan]

Re: U.S. Intelligence Analyst Arrested in Wikileaks Video Probe

Nope, Cot, None of those things even enter into my thought process, nor would they.

Thanks for your thoughtful reply.

At what point do you stop ignoring the crime -and your own complicity as an accessory after the fact in the eyes of the authorities- and when exactly do your morals, ethics, and/or self interests tell you have to talk?

I guess the best answer would be to never allow such a conflict in ethics and honoring of agreements to exist in the first place. I guess the best solution is prevention in the form of never agreeing to keep a secret if the secret puts yourself in jeopardy, and to never agree to something unless you know and understand the terms and conditions before you agree to it.

Even with what you have stated and the strong argument, especially with self preservation, I still have doubts on what I would do in the same position. If no preconditions existed with the keeping of a secret, then there is no choice but to break one of the agreements that was made. This would probably mean that an evaluation of "the best possible outcome" would be made to decide which path would be better for me and/or others that I care about.

In other news, it seems that everyone agrees with the first question that they would NOT do what the suspect claims to have done. However, we see a nearly 50/50 split between the options of turning this guy in or not. It really leaves an impression that interpersonal conflict of opinion on this may echo in individual conflict for many people.

[Thorn]

The question has been raised, why would Lamo even have to think twice or agonize over a decision to go to the authorities?

...

For those of you that see this decision to go to the authorities is an obvious one, have you considered the above 3 items?.

...

Nope, Cot, None of those things even enter into my thought process, nor would they.

I'm working on a much longer answer, and will post it later in the day.

EDIT: Here's the long answer:


No, Cot, it's just as clear, and no more difficult. Not only would I have no qualms about turning the son of a bitch in, if he's convicted, I wouldn't have any qualms about being his executioner. Although, as I consider it, he should really be turned over to a mob of widows of service members killed in action.

Let us be very clear: There is NO moral or ethical dilemma here. What Manning did was WRONG and abhorrent in the worst way possible. He betrayed is country -and worst still, his brothers in arms- for no reason other than he could. His highest attainment here is nothing more than bragging rights. At the very least people like Ames, Pollard, the Walkers, Whitworth, or the Rosenbergs did it for money or ideological reasons; which is to say "concrete motivations". While I can't condone betraying your country for cash, it is understandable. Betrayal for ideological reasons is understandable, and may even be excusable (although not necessarily legally tolerable) depending on where you stand on a given doctrine.

However, to do this for nothing more than pure kicks is the lowest kind of debasement.

To go over your questions one-by-one:

1) A promise, especially an implied one, pertaining to "keeping a secret" doesn't hold any water if someone makes another party an accessory after the fact to a crime. Even if a person is completely amoral and unethical, self-preservation would dictate that someone strongly consider turning the information over to the authorities when dealing with a crime this serious. That goes double for a convicted felon like Lamo, who would certainly know that if he were found to be connected to this in any way could be facing a very long jail term.

2) Personally, people around me should damn well know where I stand ahead of time. I am not a doctor, lawyer (gag), or priest (double gag). As such I have no moral, legal, or ethical bounds to maintain another person's illegal secret(s) or criminal information under professional privilege. It's simple. If you don't want word of your criminal behavior to get out, don't tell people, especially me.

3) No loss there. A true friend doesn't make others responsible for their own failings. If someone was a very close friend, and did decide to burden me with such a confession, my only response would be along the lines of "So who's going to the authorities, you or me?" Note that I said 'a very close friend'. Acquaintances and the like don't get the option of doing it before me.

For those of you who think that it was bad or even repugnant for Lamo to tell the authorities, consider the question this way: substitute "murder" (or whatever crime you hold to be worst) for "treason", and place yourself in Lamo's position. At what point do you stop ignoring the crime -and your own complicity as an accessory after the fact in the eyes of the authorities- and when exactly do your morals, ethics, and/or self interests tell you have to talk?

[TheCotMan]

Re: U.S. Intelligence Analyst Arrested in Wikileaks Video Probe

The question has been raised, why would Lamo even have to think twice or agonize over a decision to go to the authorities?

Here are three spaces that cause me to pause an wonder how I would decide:

1) In the conversation leading up to disclosure, of information where the suspect allegedly claimed to be responsible for breaking laws, was a condition to providing this information to Lamo to keep it secret, stated?

It seems to me that it would be highly probable for such a condition to have been discussed before information was disclosed; even gossips do that: "Just between us, ok?" or "can you keep this secret?"

if it was a condition, then there is an ethical dilemma and a question on which agreements you will choose to abide by. (Have you ever stated your 'pledge of allegiance' to the flag and 'The United States of America' and then agreed to keep a secret that would mean having to decide which pledge/agreement to break?) Do no harm to fellow humans by action or inaction, or abide by an agreement you made without visibility to the ramifications of being held to that agreement. I would hazard to guess that many of you would say agreeing to something without knowing the cost is stupid, or maybe have some idea that when the cost is too high, an exception like "crossing your fingers" or "get out of jail free card" would allow you to side-step honoring your agreements. If neither of these, then what else?

2) The personal cost that exists as lost future opportunities: who will ever confide in you once you have a history of going to the authorities to relay information with an implied (and not explicit) confidentiality between friends or associates or professionals?

3) People you thought were your friends choose to abandon you because they can't trust you anymore. Of course, the big assumption is that they really were your friends in the first place if there was no foundation of trust to begin a relationship.

For those of you that see this decision to go to the authorities is an obvious one, have you considered the above 3 items? What allowed you to discount them enough to keep your opinion focused on going to the authorities should be the obvious choice?

Is your choice less clear with the three above items, or did I just make it more difficult for you?

Thanks in advance. :-)

[hexjunkie]

Re: U.S. Intelligence Analyst Arrested in Wikileaks Video Probe

I think the only thing i think that Lamo did wrong was to tell the papers and not the Federal authorities. In his place my first call would have been to the nearest FBI office.

BTW - I agree 100% that anything short of a firing squad is lenient. I said the same thing when news about Walker and Whitworth was made public.

He did contact army CID and the FBI before the papers according to the article.

[DaKahuna]

Re: U.S. Intelligence Analyst Arrested in Wikileaks Video Probe

I'm failing to see how anyone could justify doing what Manning did at all. It's treason, pure and simple. Furthermore, I cannot comprehend not doing what Lamo did immediately and without hesitation. The only art of this whole thing that I find questionable is why Lamo "agonized" over the decision at all.

I think the only thing i think that Lamo did wrong was to tell the papers and not the Federal authorities. In his place my first call would have been to the nearest FBI office.

BTW - I agree 100% that anything short of a firing squad is lenient. I said the same thing when news about Walker and Whitworth was made public.

[hexjunkie]

Re: U.S. Intelligence Analyst Arrested in Wikileaks Video Probe

Manning was a fool. Things considered National Security are classified that way for a reason. Releasing it to the general public, nay to everyone in the world is fool hardy and could set back the US foreign relations by years if not decades. Releasing that information is despicable to me and in the format he released it means it cannot be taken back.... ever.
Being trusted by the government is a privileged that should not be abused. I do not know Manning, but I can say that reviewing over 250,000 documents is a very hard job and reviewing those documents to not include military maneuvers or any kind of strategy planning like troop locations or even embassy staff locations within the embassy would be almost impossible. This information is classified for a reason and there is no telling what the repercussions of his actions will be. Maybe nothing or perhaps a lot of people can be injured or killed.

What Lamo did is not my position to judge, I can only say that I would have done the same in the situation explained in the article. I'm not sure I would have struggled to make the decision though.

*DISCLAIMER: the statements above are my opinion, take that as you will*

[noid]

Re: U.S. Intelligence Analyst Arrested in Wikileaks Video Probe

Seems strange, like he wants all the attention instead of informing the authorities and letting them deal with it. He was doing live chat interviews a couple hours ago according to twitter. Wonder how he met and knew the analyst?

Um, have you ever been around the guy? He's nothing but a narcissist and an attention whore (and apparently also a rat).

Of course he wants the attention.

[Thorn]

Re: U.S. Intelligence Analyst Arrested in Wikileaks Video Probe

I'm failing to see how anyone could justify doing what Manning did at all. It's treason, pure and simple. Furthermore, I cannot comprehend not doing what Lamo did immediately and without hesitation. The only art of this whole thing that I find questionable is why Lamo "agonized" over the decision at all.

[Dark Tangent]

Re: U.S. Intelligence Analyst Arrested in Wikileaks Video Probe

I guess the best way to sum up my feelings are this:

If you tell me a war story about some past exploits, that is one thing, no worries.

If you are telling me things out of the blue that deal with national security, about how you are leaking diplomatic secret cables, well that is something totally different.

Don't be surprised if the black helicopters start circling soon after.

[theprez98]

Re: U.S. Intelligence Analyst Arrested in Wikileaks Video Probe

So Lano did the right thing, in your opinion?

S

Yes.

I personally would not have done the publicity thing that he's doing, but that's him, not me.

I can understand people calling him a snitch; I can understand people saying he is a publicity hound. But I can't really understand people who are saying both. Snitches do not seek publicity, so that doesn't really make any sense.

Knowledge of a crime can make you an accessory. Not that this alone would provoke someone to turn someone else in, but it is certainly a factor worth considering.

[TheCotMan]

Re: U.S. Intelligence Analyst Arrested in Wikileaks Video Probe

Seems strange, like he wants all the attention instead of informing the authorities and letting them deal with it. He was doing live chat interviews a couple hours ago according to twitter.

Don't do the crime unless you are willing to do the time. If something like this is done from the view of morality, I can respect the guy for doing what he did so long as he does the time for what he did if he is found guilty.

This does not mean I agree with what he did. To gain clearance, he made promises to abide by rules, regulations and laws. He broke that promise when he passed classified information to people without a security clearance. If any claims are made to having done this because of "ethics" or "integrity" then we have a contradiction, since ethics and integrity are broken with claims that doing so would preserve them.

Wonder how he met and knew the analyst?

Article says analyst contacted him after an article about Lamo appeared online.

Assuming that Lamo is not doing this to be in the spotlight, he is the one I feel most sorry for. He was in a difficult position and had to make a difficult decision. I really don't know how I would react in the same circumstance. I am going to add a poll to this thread. Two parts, 6 answer, 3 answer for each question. What would you do?

Poll added. Multiple-vote possible. How you (as an individual) vote is not displayed for other users to see. Your vote will be added, but your username not associated with it.)