New poll: What format would you like for your DefCon media?

[Xeon]

Re: New poll: What format would you like for your DefCon media?

<snip>...Oh, and I'm not trying to pick on you, just think that if you didn't know, you might like to. :-)...<snip>

I don't feel picked on at all. My statement was very much leaving an open end for someone to mention these problems. I'm glad you did. Knowing about these issues is definitely part of choosing a media format.

[Nikita]

Re: New poll: What format would you like for your DefCon media?

I worded that part poorly.

What I meant was not that there was not out of date data, but that I am unaware of any major problems being caused by the outdated data.

Sadly again I have to point out that we have had those problems too. We had to reburn all of the BH DC CD's one night because of Chris Pagets HID material. We had a slight controversy near miss over the mass transit presentation of DC17 which was gagged and replaced. Thankfully they didn't press the issue, but they very well could have. Who knows when the next C&D could fuck the CD.

Oh, and I'm not trying to pick on you, just think that if you didn't know, you might like to. :-)
But all that depressing negative talk doesn't change the fact that we try to avoid putting ourselves in that position now if something smells of lawsuit. We have been lucky.

[Xeon]

Re: New poll: What format would you like for your DefCon media?

About 80% of the slides on the CD are out-of-date, and they are weak barebones representations of the real deal. All the current and complete slides are available on the Defcon site after the show. That is one of the complaints about the CD and putting it together.

I worded that part poorly.

What I meant was not that there was not out of date data, but that I am unaware of any major problems being caused by the outdated data.

[lexxmac]

Re: New poll: What format would you like for your DefCon media?

The CDs [probably] cost less than a $1, even with a spiffy jewel case. A custom flash drive would probably cost a minimum of $5, if not more like $10-12. That of course is assuming you got a decent deal because of quantity. Even with that conservative price estimate, that would cost the con or a sponsor $40,000-$100,000. That's not chump change.

CDs in quantity are pressed and the data is added to them as part of the manufacturing process. Flash drives could be programmed during manufacturing, but that would probably add even more to the cost.

I voted for the CD because I think having something tangible would be nice and it is far more cost effective.

[theprez98]

Re: New poll: What format would you like for your DefCon media?

That said, there's never been a problem with out-of-date data that I've heard of, so this could be a null point.

About 80% of the slides on the CD are out-of-date...

Like mine, for example. Even though my slides are probably closer to being a finished product that most, they're already out of date.

[Nikita]

Re: New poll: What format would you like for your DefCon media?

That said, there's never been a problem with out-of-date data that I've heard of, so this could be a null point.

Each media type will have some drawbacks.

About 80% of the slides on the CD are out-of-date, and they are weak barebones representations of the real deal. All the current and complete slides are available on the Defcon site after the show. That is one of the complaints about the CD and putting it together.

[Nikita]

Re: New poll: What format would you like for your DefCon media?

So what happens when a company doesn't want their employee to do a talk because it may tarnish the reputation of the company :) (sorry just playing devil's advocate)

They usually back out early on, before you ever get word of it, or it turns into a "situation" but Normally the speaker either pulls out before it's a big deal or they change their content. This is not uncommon. A lot of the time the company just settles with the speaker removing all affiliation from their talk abstract/bio/etc.


Also, the case of the USB sticks....This is spendy, more than you think. We have to order 8k of them, custom design them, AND get them pre populated with what would normally be the Defcon CD contents. This would have to be done sooner than the CD's production timeline as well. Meaning we'd have to push the deadline for materials UP. Up as in WAY earlier than we request now at one month ahead. It may seem a piece of cake to you to just pop in a drive and upload the contents, but were talking 8,000 drives....We are already talking over the option of burning the CD's ourselves in house now, to shed off 2 weeks from the deadline of materials. Time consuming projects, for your benefit. :-) I am in favor of an ISO off the DEF CON site if people support it, because it saves us a lot of time, and a lot of money. I bet that money could be spent on adding a new cool thing to the con.

As for sponsoring them...yeah I don't think that DT will ever let a sponsor in the door like that, on something that is so critical for the attendees. We'd be hypocrites to let Coke buy it's way into the con, but not Pepsi? Do you REALLY want your DEF CON badge brought to you by Carl's Jr.? I see how thinking that an energy drink would be ok, but by having a sponsor we'd be saying that redbull is better than monster...what if they don't want us to serve monster? That will piss some people off. We are not a combination pizza hut and Taco bell, we are a sec con aligning ourselves with the freedom of information and the ability to choose. It's too testy waters right now, I don't know maybe in the future DT will find a sponsor he likes that allows us the freedom and doesn't imply that they are running the show and he goes with it, you never know what the future will bring.

[Metatron]

Re: New poll: What format would you like for your DefCon media?

I voted iso on the net but would prefer tar. i would not trust a USB... This is defcon after all. Same with a cd. It would instantly hit the trash.

Also, when traveling, I am usually working off a tablet or phone w/o cdrom or usb, but with 3g/4g and a shell.

If you can't/don't trust the media files comes on, why would you trust that content on your computer?

Really if its official Defcon merchandise I don't really see the issue.

[Xeon]

Re: New poll: What format would you like for your DefCon media?

Jeez, people over-think this stuff way too much. I ignored the "sponsored by some energy drink company" although, I must say, I'm not sure why sk00t put that on there in the first place. It just confuses the issue. Anyway, I voted based solely on the media type.

Ok, maybe anticipating possible sponsorship pitfalls is over-thinking this. However, the USB drives will be an equal or greater challenge to using a CD. They will still need to be purchased, and a final image of the data made. Is programming a USB drive more difficult than stamping a CD? I don't know. I just have an image in my head of a manual USB stick programming party a few days before the con.

A tar isn't smaller than a ISO. TAR is an archive (Tape ARchive) for ease in retaining a group of files, and ISO is an image of a disk. A tar might be smaller, if it is compressed, but then the decompression is one more hoop that's required for people to go through. Not that it's a big deal, but it may also require downloading more software depending on the OS/distro the user has, and then a possibly a configure; make; make install cycle.

I agree, it's not a big deal. It could even take a few hoops and some software to use an ISO. I'm not sure a universal download format exists, so any download is going to require some hoop-jumping.

USB Flash has all of the advantages of the CD (instantly available individual copy, portable) with none of the disadvantages of CD (an old format that new machines don't support, large physical size), nor the disadvantages of an ISO (fighting other people for server and connection bandwidth, slow downloads, needing to be online on a potentially hostile network), and aside from the same mounting issue a CD might have, a flash drive doesn't require any special software to be read at the directory and file level.

The ISO option has the distinct advantage of allowing a more up-to-date copy of the data. With either a USB drive or a CD there will have to be some time when the data is copied well in advance of distribution. That said, there's never been a problem with out-of-date data that I've heard of, so this could be a null point.

Each media type will have some drawbacks.

[HighWiz]

Re: New poll: What format would you like for your DefCon media?

So what happens when a company doesn't want their employee to do a talk because it may tarnish the reputation of the company :) (sorry just playing devil's advocate)

I don't understand how that's playing devils advocate? You're comparing oranges and chairs.

If a company doesn't want their employee to talk at DefCon they ask them not to speak. I believe a few have done this before.

And an employee talking at DefCon is a very different thing then a company being an active sponsor of an event.

I don't know how old you are, but this is some pretty basic shit. An entry level marketing or business class in college should have told you all about this.

You're free to PM me if you like and I can further explain the situation to you, since I don't want to hijack skoot's thread.

[Nikita]

Re: New poll: What format would you like for your DefCon media?

I voted iso on the net but would prefer tar. i would not trust a USB... This is defcon after all. Same with a cd. It would instantly hit the trash.

Also, when traveling, I am usually working off a tablet or phone w/o cdrom or usb, but with 3g/4g and a shell.

That makes me sad that you throw away the CD. It's safe you know, we make it, we test it, we hand it out at registration when you get your badge.

[Jarett]

Re: New poll: What format would you like for your DefCon media?

I voted iso on the net but would prefer tar. i would not trust a USB... This is defcon after all. Same with a cd. It would instantly hit the trash.

Also, when traveling, I am usually working off a tablet or phone w/o cdrom or usb, but with 3g/4g and a shell.

[xor]

Re: New poll: What format would you like for your DefCon media?

While I voted for the flash drive, I would just as easily accept a downloadable iso. While I'm sure the merits of the energy expended to host the iso, vs the environmental impact of a cd/flash drive, can be debated here, the less plastic in the world, the better, as far as I'm concerned.

xor

[Thorn]

Re: New poll: What format would you like for your DefCon media?

I voted ISO because frankly, my laptop does not have a CD drive (and as of yet, I have not missed it). Now digital media and compression are not my expertise, but I would think a tar would be a smaller download than the ISO and I'd be all for that.

It would be nice to have an internet copy and a local DC net copy to address congestion concerns.

I did not vote for the USB drive option because of the whole corporate sponsor thing. HighWiz adequately stated the concerns regarding this.

Jeez, people over-think this stuff way too much. I ignored the "sponsored by some energy drink company" although, I must say, I'm not sure why sk00t put that on there in the first place. It just confuses the issue. Anyway, I voted based solely on the media type.

A tar isn't smaller than a ISO. TAR is an archive (Tape ARchive) for ease in retaining a group of files, and ISO is an image of a disk. A tar might be smaller, if it is compressed, but then the decompression is one more hoop that's required for people to go through. Not that it's a big deal, but it may also require downloading more software depending on the OS/distro the user has, and then a possibly a configure; make; make install cycle.

USB Flash has all of the advantages of the CD (instantly available individual copy, portable) with none of the disadvantages of CD (an old format that new machines don't support, large physical size), nor the disadvantages of an ISO (fighting other people for server and connection bandwidth, slow downloads, needing to be online on a potentially hostile network), and aside from the same mounting issue a CD might have, a flash drive doesn't require any special software to be read at the directory and file level.

[eris]

Re: New poll: What format would you like for your DefCon media?

Why does the usb drive option need to have a corporate sponsor anyway? Those things are cheap as heck and available to buy in gross with the DC logo itself, by and for DC.