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  • #16
    Re: Defcon Kids in the news.

    @Anch If you're worried about language, any of the kids who check out these forums have already been introduced to that...so no worries there. You can have 3 'Fucks' in a PG-13 movie, so "EVERYONE CLEAR THE FUCKING HALLWAY!! MAKE A FUCKING HOLE!!", clears the MPAA censors

    Most of the parties and shindigs where crazy shenanigans are happening like pool2girl are 21+...so no worries there.

    You don't even have a kid to bring...so no worries there.

    I've been going to Defcon for awhile now, and hey, maybe I'm looking in the wrong places, but minus an occasional drunk hacker, from 10-6 PM (KidCon hours) defcon is not as crazy as its made out to be.

    Everything else aside...it's probably better that CyFi looks up to Drunken Partying Crazy Hackers and Security Professionals then Paris Hilton or Lindsay Lohan

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    • #17
      Re: Defcon Kids in the news.

      Originally posted by Forty Seven View Post
      I've been going to Defcon for awhile now, and hey, maybe I'm looking in the wrong places, but minus an occasional drunk hacker, from 10-6 PM (KidCon hours) defcon is not as crazy as its made out to be.
      I seem to recall one Scavenger Hunt item, one year, was to streak across the stage where someone was giving a presentation. I've seen video evidence of this happening at Defcon. Years later, someone said it was an "item" in the scavenger hunt, and another person claims someone actually did it when the lights were turned out at the closing ceremonies, as KingPin was asking the audience to swing their badges back and fourth, while music was playing to illustrate the "persistence of vision" display option. (I did not see this closing ceremony streaking event happen, and have no evidence that it did, so treat that example as "rumor.")

      In presentations, people have historically included video, and/or images of things like goatse, to act as metaphor for "gaping holes" in security, or other metaphor that describe, "back door access," or "tubgirl" to describe how some people make decisions that cause them to get crap all over themselves and ask, "why did this happen to me?" or other humorous *adult* symbolism or metaphor.

      At the AP, I remember walking by the main pool while someone was showing off some sort of "shit porn" on their laptop, with descriptive commentary as a bonus from the apparent owner of the laptop.

      There are many things that have been put on display at Defcon in many of the public spaces, presentations, meeting rooms, chill-out spaces, and private locations, too. Certain hot tubs at the AP have been mentioned several times because of the events that some claim have taken place there, one sometimes described after-the-fact as, "they do not have enough disinfectant and cleaner in the work to clean that hot tub and make me ever want to get into it after what happened there last night."

      Since Defcon moved back to a Casino/Hotel, the frequency of these kinds of incidents has decreased, but I've still seen pranks and actions during the day in public spaces that would likely be described as "adult" in nature.

      I try to have an open mind on things and wait until they happen before I judge them. So I am going to play, "wait and see," all the time wondering if my worries from 2+ years ago will come true.

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      • #18
        Re: Defcon Kids in the news.

        Originally posted by Forty Seven View Post
        Most of the parties and shindigs where crazy shenanigans are happening like pool2girl are 21+...so no worries there.
        Bullshit. pool2girl was not at a 21+ event... There really weren't 21+ events back then...


        I've been going to Defcon for awhile now, and hey, maybe I'm looking in the wrong places.
        What's awhile? Are we talking Riv DefCon? AP DefCon? Earlier? What...?

        See, if you're talking Riviera DefCon, then you may only know a DefCon with 21+ parties... If you're talking AP DefCon (or earlier), then you should know better...
        Last edited by HighWiz; June 24, 2011, 16:24. Reason: added shit
        And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts, And I looked and behold: a pale horse. And his name, that sat on him, was Death. And Hell followed with him.

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: Defcon Kids in the news.

          I guess the reality is that some parents will be comfortable with kids being around these activities and some parents will not. Some of the Defcon community will be happy to see Defcon evolve in this manner, some will not.

          I am just glad that I live in a country where I have an option to go or not go, and I am happy that Defcon Kids will be an option for at least some kids.

          What this discussion really makes clear to me is that there is a need for a talk / class at Defcon that helps parents that are not technologically educated or savvy to understand how they can both help their kids that are interested in this field expand their capabilities and also how to better understand what to expect (bedrooms full of equipment, routers and beer can antennas, etc..) and how they can help keep them on the ethical hacking side of the fence.

          I guess a class on how to keep the kids out of the parents personal files would not be bad also!

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: Defcon Kids in the news.

            Originally posted by Bbox View Post
            I guess the reality is that some parents will be comfortable with kids being around these activities and some parents will not. Some of the Defcon community will be happy to see Defcon evolve in this manner, some will not.

            I am just glad that I live in a country where I have an option to go or not go, and I am happy that Defcon Kids will be an option for at least some kids.

            :

            I think Highwiz said it best in this post. If someone acts or dresses inappropriately INSIDE the kids area, ok fine, parents, whine away. Otherwise, be prepared to have your child see you humiliated and possibly in handcuffs if you choose to be a dick about it.

            They will have their event, we will have ours, and where they meet is no man's land.

            I find it really interesting how polarizing the event already is and it was only just announced.
            "They-Who-Were-Google are no longer alone. Now we are all Google."

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            • #21
              Re: Defcon Kids in the news.

              Originally posted by eris View Post
              I think Highwiz said it best in this post. ...

              I find it really interesting how polarizing the event already is and it was only just announced.
              Agreed. Highwiz hit it on the nose.

              BTW, it was just as polarizing in 2008, when we were discussing childcare it pre-DC17:
              https://forum.defcon.org/showthread.php?t=9756&page=2

              Frankly, I still think it's a bad idea. I didn't bring my kid to DC in the 1990's, and wouldn't bring the grandkids now.
              Thorn
              "If you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to be a horrible warning." - Catherine Aird

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: Defcon Kids in the news.

                Cue "They are only teaching them the skills they need to be cyberterrirists!" sort of articles.
                I guess in theory this camp is a good idea. But like sending a 9-year-old to a gun safety class, I’d be surprised if most of the kids involved are going with the intention of being cyber cops, or if they’re going instead to learn some tricks of the trade to perform deeds that the organizers are actually trying to prevent in the first place.
                "They-Who-Were-Google are no longer alone. Now we are all Google."

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                • #23
                  Re: Defcon Kids in the news.

                  sending a 9-year-old to a gun safety class
                  the blogger doesn't really make any sort of compelling case for why this is anything but a smart and responsible activity. then again, she's a New Yorker who now lives in Aspen, Colorado. i am hardly surprised to learn that she's dubious about firearms, lockpicking, and anything marginally interesting if it is exposed to the children!!1!
                  "I'll admit I had an OiNK account and frequented it quite often… What made OiNK a great place was that it was like the world's greatest record store… iTunes kind of feels like Sam Goody to me. I don't feel cool when I go there. I'm tired of seeing John Mayer's face pop up. I feel like I'm being hustled when I visit there, and I don't think their product is that great. DRM, low bit rate, etc... OiNK it existed because it filled a void of what people want."
                  - Trent Reznor

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                  • #24
                    Re: Defcon Kids in the news.

                    Originally posted by Deviant Ollam View Post
                    the blogger doesn't really make any sort of compelling case for why this is anything but a smart and responsible activity. then again, she's a New Yorker who now lives in Aspen, Colorado. i am hardly surprised to learn that she's dubious about firearms, lockpicking, and anything marginally interesting if it is exposed to the children!!1!
                    I agree. Her problem with the 9 yr old shooting guns seemed to be that the child had fun and may or may not have absorbed any actual safety. This ignores the fact that simply shooting in a supervised environment teaches safety with guns so they CAN be "just fun" to a kid. Knee jerk "Oh won't someone think of the chilren!" response.
                    "They-Who-Were-Google are no longer alone. Now we are all Google."

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                    • #25
                      Re: Defcon Kids in the news.

                      I think a lot of the outcome of how DefCon Kids will "come off", will really depend on the organizer(s) of the event. If they are totally forthcoming and able to convey to the parents the issues describe in this thread, then I think it could work really well. However, if they fail in that duty, I can see the potential for many problems arising.

                      I have no doubt that the majority of the parents will be mindful of keeping an eye on their children. The parents interactions with the other attendees is where I think there may be issues.

                      Yes, there is a very good chance you & your children will have to walk through a cloud of smoke.

                      You and your children will be exposed to a wide assortment of people, lifestyles and philosophies.

                      If you're staying on site, you may have trouble sleeping.

                      If a kid gets lost, 99.99% of the DefCon community would help out the child and their parents. But there are also some really creepy motherfuckers who attend con.

                      It won't just be the language, either. Your impressionable children, may come back from DefCon flipping everyone off.

                      DefCon has a number of attendees who are in the GLBT (Gay, Lesbian, Blah, Blah, blah) camp, you may see things YOU'RE uncomfortable with, learn to deal with them internally now and be prepared to have the discussion with your children.

                      The Scavenger Hunt is one of the premiere events at DefCon, but they do some crazy (read: awesome) stuff, be prepared for the possibility of seeing some of that.

                      Please tell your children not to yell and scream before Noon - Many people are still nursing their hangovers.

                      If you come in early, and you have someone to leave your child with on Thursday, stop by DefCon 101. I would recommend strongly against bringing your (young) child to it. DefCon 101 is an R-Rated movie for language, it (like defcon) is an adult event, and that won't change.

                      On the other side of the coin:

                      Unlike a number of the attendees at Con, I'm fairly certain the children will bathe during their stay.

                      The idea of "young hackers" is a great thing. As far as teaching them the ways of the force, I'm all on board for the concept...
                      Personally I've already started my nephew and niece on their way.

                      And I don't think anyone here has an issue with "young hackers" (Though fuck the "black hat"/"white hat" shit).


                      When all is said and done, I don't foresee the problem of "DefCon Kids" being with the "kids" themselves, but rather with the parents of the kids. While the organizer(s) may say "the responsibility is on the individual parent", what they need to remember is that the parents actions will reflect on DefConKids.

                      And for the parents... Just be fully aware of the type of environment you're placing your children in.

                      As said in my first post, at the very least it will be an interesting experiment.
                      And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts, And I looked and behold: a pale horse. And his name, that sat on him, was Death. And Hell followed with him.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: Defcon Kids in the news.

                        HighWiz has some excellent points, and I hope that any parent planning on bringing children will go back read his post several times.

                        Originally posted by HighWiz View Post
                        Please tell your children not to yell and scream before Noon - Many people are still nursing their hangovers.
                        Please tell your children not to yell and scream. There's no time limit on it. Some people may be unpleasant 24/7, and not react well at all to this. In addition, and please pay attention to this, Not every female you see likes children, or being around them.

                        I loved my daughter. She was a child a long, long time ago. Your children are no relation to me, and I'd just as soon avoid them (and will, as much as I can). I am tolerant of children of friends. Children are no longer taught manners, and have no respect for adult conversations, or adults.

                        Originally posted by HighWiz View Post
                        On the other side of the coin:

                        The idea of "young hackers" is a great thing. As far as teaching them the ways of the force, I'm all on board for the concept...
                        Personally I've already started my nephew and niece on their way.

                        And I don't think anyone here has an issue with "young hackers" (Though fuck the "black hat"/"white hat" shit).
                        Really, this is the best way. HighWiz *knows* his nephew and niece, and every positive influence in a kid's life is great. Anyone with enough patience to sit down and explain things to the future adults they'll be gets my applause.

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                        • #27
                          Re: Defcon Kids in the news.

                          Thanks for all the opinions and comments for the DefCon Kids event.

                          Sorry I haven't been a little more proactive in the forum but we got swamped with emails streaming in from the website.

                          It is certainly clear that many of the parents do not realize what DefCon is, in almost every email that I replied to I made sure that they did a little research into the event and told them what their kids may encounter during the course of the event.

                          Almost 100% of those parents replied by thanking me and I don't think they will be attending.

                          I'm in the process of updating the website with an FAQ that will be heavy on HighWiz's comments on what parents should expect.

                          Everyone's kid is welcome to this event but we really would like to target regular attendees who would like to introduce their children to the wonderful world that DefCon is.

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                          • #28
                            Re: Defcon Kids in the news.

                            Below is the FAQ or visit http://www.defconkids.org/?page_id=155


                            Let me know if any of you have any suggestions or changes you would like to see.



                            What Parents Must Know about DEFCON.

                            How do I register for DefCon Kids?

                            How much does DefCon Kids Cost

                            Parent Responsibilities



                            What Parents Must Know about DEFCON.

                            DefCon is a very adult orientated conference, more of a party then your typical conference. There will be adult language, alcohol and there may be nudity.

                            The DefCon Kids conference room will be situated in and around the adult DEFCON, therefore you and your kids will be exposed to a wide assortment of people, lifestyles and philosophies.

                            We are not trying to scare you off but please research past DEFCON conferences and understand the environment that you are bringing your child into.

                            It is very wise that you read these two FAQ’s about DEFCON https://www.defcon.org/html/defcon-19/dc-19-faq.html and https://www.defcon.org/html/links/dc-faq/dc-faq.html

                            How do I register for DefCon Kids

                            There is no pre-registration to DefCon Kids sessions. Like all DEFCON events you must wait in line outside the door for each session that your kid would like to attend.

                            Because of limited space in the classroom and workshop rooms, you and your kid may not be able to attend certain sessions because they will be full.

                            How much does DefCon Kids Cost

                            DefCon Kids has no additional fee but kids and parents must have a DEFCON badge. These badges can be bought at the conference. Please see https://www.defcon.org/html/defcon-19/dc-19-faq.html and https://www.defcon.org/html/links/dc-faq/dc-faq.html

                            Parent Responsibilities

                            Parents will be required to sign a waiver/release form when registering their child for the first time at the DefCon kids rooms. This waiver form will require them to show and fill out their identification for themselves and their child.

                            Parents are responsible for their children throughout the DefCon Kids sessions. Parents and Kids must stay together at all times. If the room fills up then the we will close the door and not allow anyone else in.
                            Last edited by StealHead; June 27, 2011, 12:09.

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                            • #29
                              Re: Defcon Kids in the news.

                              BEFORE ANYONE ELSE REPLIES:

                              Since the firewall upgrade a while back, a problem has appeared when posting a large amount of content. (The Firewall Admin knows about this, and how to repeat it 100% of the time, but needs time to diagnose it and fix it.)

                              If you reply to the above post, and quote a large enough amount of text, or include enough of your own text, there is risk for you to lose your entire post before it gets to the forums, eaten by the firewall.

                              TO AVOID THIS, consider the following:
                              Before you click "submit" select-all of the text of your post... everything in the post including the quotes content in the text field where you typed your post, then choose to "copy" it using your web browser.
                              Then, click submit.
                              If you see an error from the firewall, then immediately click back, locate the text field you previously copied, "Select All" then choose PASTE, and then quickly click submit.

                              Another alternative with firefox is to use an extension called "lazarus" which auto-saves posts that might otherwise be lost so you can try again when clicking "back" and recover text.

                              Thanks!

                              Now my reply...

                              Originally posted by StealHead View Post
                              Below is the FAQ or visit http://www.defconkids.org/?page_id=155

                              ...

                              What Parents Must Know about DEFCON.

                              DefCon is a very adult orientated conference, more of a party then your typical conference. There will be adult language, alcohol and there may be nudity.

                              The DefCon Kids conference room will be situated in and around the adult DEFCON, therefore you and your kids will be exposed to a wide assortment of people, lifestyles and philosophies.

                              We are not trying to scare you off but please research past DEFCON conferences and understand the environment that you are bringing your child into.
                              This is great to see. Parents that enter fully informed of risks like this are less likely to impose change through request or demand on the attendee to change, or conform.

                              Really good to include FAQ with Defcon too, so we can avoid answering the same questions here and in email.

                              ...
                              Parent Responsibilities

                              Parents will be required to sign a waiver/release form when registering their child for the first time at the DefCon kids rooms. This waiver form will require them to show and fill out their identification for themselves and their child.

                              If there is enough capacity withing the room parents are encouraged to stay but if the room fills up then the parents will need to go into the hallway.
                              Good planning and forethought.

                              Parents are responsible for their children throughout the DefCon Kids sessions. They should be no farther than 3 minutes away from their children and should have their cell phones on, ready to receive emergency calls if something should arise.
                              That answers another question that came up elsewhere, as to if this was a Defcon "Daycare" where parents dropped off their kids so they could go offsite to other events, or if they would need to remain nearby.

                              Thanks for taking the time to address many of the people's concerns. I am one of those people that will still wait and see what happens in order to see the results and comment more about it here.

                              Thanks and good luck.
                              Last edited by TheCotMan; June 26, 2011, 21:17.

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                              • #30
                                Re: Defcon Kids in the news.

                                I see by looking at the allocated spaces map here That DefCon Kids space is at the "far" end of the convention hall. It appears as though anyone attending said kid con may well have to navigate the entire length of the regular con spaces. Is there an alternate "kid safe, hassle free" entry to avoid parents having to pull children through the inevitable "make a hole" nightmare that hallways can become?
                                "They-Who-Were-Google are no longer alone. Now we are all Google."

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