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DEFCON 20 Shoot will run Wednesday Dusk AND Thursday Dawn

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  • Deviant Ollam
    replied
    Re: DEFCON 20 Shoot will run Wednesday Dusk AND Thursday Dawn

    i'm sure that things will work out just fine. i'm looking forward to the Shoot event and am pleased to see that registrations are are still proceeding, slowly but surely.

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  • Gigs
    replied
    Re: DEFCON 20 Shoot will run Wednesday Dusk AND Thursday Dawn

    Originally posted by FirmWarez View Post
    The other side of it is, how many people will actually camp? Another annual shoot I attend had tons of people talking about camping, just ended up being me, ShortGrrl, and our tent mate braving the "wilderness". That was a nice night.
    I've suspected this to be the case as well. I don't think they'll be many people actually camping. Sticking around a couple hours after the evening shoot to hang out, that might be a little larger group.

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  • renderman
    replied
    Re: DEFCON 20 Shoot will run Wednesday Dusk AND Thursday Dawn

    Too toss my hat into the debate. No alcohol anywhere near the line, that's just sane.

    As for afterwards, camping, etc. If folks want to carry, I'd be comfortable with that as long as the rule is that it stays holstered and does not come out at all (savage ocelot attack not withstanding). No sow and tell, no picture posing, it stays holstered. Anyone seen with thier side are is immediatly called on it and sent away (or driven depending on alcohol content). Even drunk, I have more faith in this community to police itself than most others.

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  • FirmWarez
    replied
    Re: DEFCON 20 Shoot will run Wednesday Dusk AND Thursday Dawn

    Unless I missed something, I don't think anyone here suggested or would approve drinking before or during the shoot.

    The question has been: how to transition from a shooting event during the day to a group of folks camping at night who might want a beer with their dead cow after a long, hot day of fun -- when you know that those folks have been shooting all day and are armed.

    It is possible for rational good people to transition between NO DRINKS AT ALL safety critical events and having a beer with friends after the event is over. I did that with rally cars; I do it with firetrucks and subguns.

    The biggest issue we face is that this event is far less controlled than the other things I mentioned. The other shoots I go to are typically invite only or semi-secret time/place. Any bozo can find out about this one; and many of us attending this don't really know each other.

    The other side of it is, how many people will actually camp? Another annual shoot I attend had tons of people talking about camping, just ended up being me, ShortGrrl, and our tent mate braving the "wilderness". That was a nice night.

    It's Deviant's event. If the decision is no drinks during the post-shoot eating/camping time, I'm cool with that. If it's just me and the Grrl sleeping on top of the Rover? I will have a beer or two.

    I don't have a problem moving from the shoot area to a different site for camping; that could be a good transition point from one event to the next. I also don't need a fire; will cook on coleman stove, and I'm not afraid of the dark. :)

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  • astcell
    replied
    Re: DEFCON 20 Shoot will run Wednesday Dusk AND Thursday Dawn

    Personally I do not condone ANY alcohol during the shoot. It's freaking hot out there and that's not the time for a brewski. Google "drink alcohol in the heat" if you do not believe me. You truly need your wits about you when you stop to think that a four pound index finger pull is all that is needed to shoot a bullet. It takes about the same pull to pop open a can of Budweiser. Perfectly sober and experienced people have shooting accidents. Now we already increase the risk factor at the shoot by having younger folks, newbies, strangers, new guns one has not shot before, a new range one has not seen, drama such as where to get my eyes and ears and ammo, the curiosity factor, the Kodak moment with the gun posed pointed who knows where,...and so on. The safety guys and DO manage to keep us all free of holes year after year, so we can go back to the hotel happily wearing GSR and a new t-shirt. I cannot see alcohol adding to the pleasure.

    //soapbox off//

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  • Deviant Ollam
    replied
    Re: DEFCON 20 Shoot will run Wednesday Dusk AND Thursday Dawn

    are we really expecting anyone at this event to be getting totally torn-up and blasted drunk? i'm picturing a few beers with the meal, enough to make sleeping on the sand ok but nothing too wild and rowdy.

    after all, anyone camping out there is likely doing so because they plan on being at the Thursday AM portion of the shoot. if you're doing that, why would you opt to possibly wake up hung over in the damn desert?

    DEFCON is a full weekend long, i would think that most folk might be able to hold of their alcoholism until the weekend officially starts, at least.

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  • Gigs
    replied
    Re: DEFCON 20 Shoot will run Wednesday Dusk AND Thursday Dawn

    Since there still seems to be discussion on this, let me cite the law for NV (we went over all this in my NV CCW class)

    http://www.leg.state.nv.us/nrs/NRS-2...l#NRS202Sec257

    It is unlawful for a person who:
    (a) Has a concentration of alcohol of 0.10 or more in his or her blood or breath; or
    (b) Is under the influence of any controlled substance [...]
    ...to have in his or her actual physical possession any firearm.
    Actual physical possession pretty much means on your person or within your immediate reach. So it is legal to drink and carry, but you must not become drunk.

    I think a good policy for our shoot would be that once drinking starts all guns should be out of sight and shouldn't be showed off or handled publicly. If you plan on getting drunk, make sure that you don't go close enough to your guns to constitute physical possession. If you have something concealed then it would be your responsibility to not get drunk, as it always is.

    To be honest I think this is the only viable policy we can have, without resorting to pat downs or anything stupidly invasive.

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  • seeess
    replied
    Re: DEFCON 20 Shoot will run Wednesday Dusk AND Thursday Dawn

    Originally posted by Deviant Ollam View Post
    i do not believe this to be correct. many states have laws which prohibit the drinking of any alcohol at all while carrying. other states (FL and PA are two that come to mind) make it illegal to be incapacitated by drink (.08 BAC is how they define it) while carrying, but the mere act of "utilizing" is not illegal outright.
    PA doesnt even have the concept of a legal limit for firearm use (drinking is allowed while carrying), but your carry permit can be pulled for being a "habitual drunkard" or something.

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  • DaKahuna
    replied
    Re: DEFCON 20 Shoot will run Wednesday Dusk AND Thursday Dawn

    Since I was not able to participate last year and I do not recall anything specifically being said on the subject, what type of targets are recommended? I saw mention of fruit, golf balls, ice, etc.. so I am going to assume that there are little no restrictions as to the type of targets we can bring and shoot and that there are no target stands at pre-set ranges that people could use to hold paper targets.

    So - I am open to suggestions as to what I should start considering to use as targets, as opposed to shooting at rocks out in the desert, which I assume is always an option.

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  • Deviant Ollam
    replied
    Re: DEFCON 20 Shoot will run Wednesday Dusk AND Thursday Dawn

    Originally posted by xor View Post
    There is no where that I know of where is it legal to handle firearms while using alcohol.
    i do not believe this to be correct. many states have laws which prohibit the drinking of any alcohol at all while carrying. other states (FL and PA are two that come to mind) make it illegal to be incapacitated by drink (.08 BAC is how they define it) while carrying, but the mere act of "utilizing" is not illegal outright.

    i do not know of jurisdictions where they differentiate between being in control of a firearm versus handling versus shooting, etc. usually it's just the "bearing" of the item that is in the law, i believe. whether carrying, sport shooting, or shooting in an act of defense... all the same rules, i think.

    I do not know the NV law. but i will be advising anyone who is carrying to not be drinking.


    Originally posted by xor View Post
    glow sticks.
    we're hoping to have the shooting wrapped up right around the magic hour when daylight is just about gone... so hopefully we won't need these. but i'll look into maybe having a large batch of them available just because why not. could be a good idea, and cheap.


    Originally posted by xor View Post
    There must be at least 10 near by camp sites, campers could go there.
    i know that i don't feel like asking people to go somewhere else to camp. if it's possible to camp right there, by all means i'd like to.


    Originally posted by xor View Post
    wrong not to consider the stranger factor. Who would have ever thought a dude would have showed up at the Hacker Pimps party with a knife
    yeah. this is true. at least a few of us are likely to be armed as we camp. and i'm not opposed to telling people not to be.

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  • xor
    replied
    Re: DEFCON 20 Shoot will run Wednesday Dusk AND Thursday Dawn

    Where I stand:

    There is no where that I know of where is it legal to handle firearms while using alcohol. So if everyone follows the law, we are good, don't, face the consequences.

    Lessons learned from raves(sort of), shooters, people on the line, watching the line, ...etc wear glow sticks. Helps keep people safe, identifiable, and they are cheap.

    Regarding fire, as in the roof the roof is on fire. Next to the shoot last year there was at least an acre or 2 of blackened earth, how it happened, not sure, so yes shit will burn, and well. If I could ever manage to post my long distance wide angle shots of the shoot from the ridge above the shoot to defconpics, you could see that.

    There must be at least 10 near by camp sites, campers could go there.

    Don't have an opinion on anything else.

    There is a general assumption that no one else will be out there, I think that's wrong not to consider the stranger factor. Who would have ever thought a dude would have showed up at the Hacker Pimps party with a knife. Shit happens, and often.

    xor

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  • Gigs
    replied
    Re: DEFCON 20 Shoot will run Wednesday Dusk AND Thursday Dawn

    I have a Nevada CC permit. It's legal to drink, but not to be drunk, while carrying.

    ETA- I think honor system will work, without needing to zip tie or anything like that. Really everyone I've ever met at the defcon shoot has struck me as the responsible type, mixed with plenty of authoritative types who are more than willing to intervene successfully if something stupid is happening.
    Last edited by Gigs; March 30, 2012, 17:58.

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  • Deviant Ollam
    replied
    Re: DEFCON 20 Shoot will run Wednesday Dusk AND Thursday Dawn

    general replies to a lot of good points being raised here...

    1. drinking vs. shooting at night - i feel that a night shoot might be good for future years, but we're just trying this out at the moment and this first time around it'd be best if the "dark" shooting simply takes place as the sun sets... not during the overnight time. once people who are leaving leave and those who are camping are camping, then it's beer o'clock.

    locals are saying that any alcohol consumption in NV is illegal if you're carrying? meh, kind of silly to me, but the law is what it is. (here in PA they take .08 BAC as the rule of the land for driving as well as carrying. makes much more sense to me, since you can actually go out to dinner and so forth with friends and not disarm and all that other bullshit)

    2. being totally disarmed at night - i feel Bbox made a good point about how an event which is publicly-known and happening out in the desert with people who are discussing being disarmed at night might be unwise. i think that some of us will prefer being armed to being boozed... and i'm fine with that. we'll see what's what on-site, but i think people can rest assured that there will be a fine defensive posture at night.

    3. more tables behind lines - i like this idea, too... and i am hoping that with the greater potential for registration fees (since we're running more sessions) that i can afford extra tables, indeed.

    4. shoot session schedules - yes, i do plan to pad things out a bit with some extra time for target check and change-over in between shooting bouts. i'll post a revised schedule when i get back to the USA and am not in third-world internet hell.

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  • Bbox
    replied
    Re: DEFCON 20 Shoot will run Wednesday Dusk AND Thursday Dawn

    Originally posted by FirmWarez View Post
    apparently people tend to think I'm far less of an idiot in real life than on the forums.
    People think your pretty sharp even on the forums, but I will attest that after talking with you in person there is no doubt you are no idiot.

    Leave a comment:


  • wrøng!
    replied
    Re: DEFCON 20 Shoot will run Wednesday Dusk AND Thursday Dawn

    Originally posted by FirmWarez View Post
    There's far more scrub out there than a midwest guy would think, and when it goes, it goes. If it wasn't BLM land, the backstop/hill at the shoot site would probably be safe for tracers, but where people put close range targets, no.
    Fair enough

    Leave a comment:

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