Competition Shoot for DefCon21 Shoot Event

[TheSiscoCoon]

First I'd like to thank "Deviant" at helping me up my status on the forum so that I can post this up and get all you guys/girls help to setup a competition shoot. Currently I'm helping Deviant with a couple of things for the normal DC Shoot Event. I have been emailing since I couldn't post on here and I emailed him about a way to do the competition safely. I'm sorry for the long post I'm just one of those type that pays attention to detail so i tend to type a lot. This email which I'm going to copy and paste here is just a rough outline to the Challenge. I'll be at the Shooting Range in a few weeks to check on a few things for Deviant and map out the area so I can come up with some drawings on different courses we could do. Later I'll draw them up and post them on here along with some rules and get everyones opinions and ideas.

I've never been to DefCon so I don't know anyone, which is why I'm on here to get help to make this happen. I can build the targets for the challenge and transport them as well as setting them up. I could use a little help with the setting up but more importantly I need support from everyone that they want to do this before I'll be spending my own money to build all this stuff for everyone to just shoot it up. And during the event I'll need some help running the event, like sign-up and such.

Well here is the email I sent to Deviant (okay I spell corrected a few things), which is a rough outline:


I don't know much about competition shooting but I know a little. From what one guy said about how the range site has changed we could use another side of it to do the Run-and-Gun comp. I suggest two trials one for one day and another for the next day, because of setup times for each course. Instead of running and shooting at stuff from left to right we could have the shooters move left and right but all targets are strait ahead and they shoot toward the hill. To keep from all kinds of complicated setup we could just mark out on the ground where the shooter has to run to and have a box marked up on the ground that once the shooter is in the box then and ONLY then they can they shoot the next target(s). Maybe do a draw, shoot 2 rounds at each target(s) and then holster, then run to the next box and draw and shoot again but all shots pointing down range.

The next event would be the hardest to do but if we could get a 8'x4' sheet of plywood or something we can cut some windows in at different heights we could set different targets out to be shoot at for each different positions either around the 8'x4' plywood or through the window but have a box marked out on the ground that they can't step out of to shoot the targets. Still all shots would be down range.

Because not everyone will probably have both type of guns (pistol and rifle) we could just group each class of competitors up. One would be those that decide to do the whole thing with a rifle for both events and another group for those that decide to do it with there pistols for each challenge. Or we could just decide to do it with pistols only, which seems like the best anyways because of the range distance each target would be would be pretty close. But maybe we could do a long distance ONE shot (Sniper) target contest with a bang if the shot is made for the rifle guys out there.


Well that is the rough idea I have at setting this thing up. Like I said before I don't mind building the targets and setting things up but I'll need support for the rest to get it done. Thanks for your time in reading this very long post.

[Th3Pr0ph3t]

Re: Competition Shoot for DefCon21 Shoot Event

If this is setup correctly I could see it becoming very successful. My first suggestion is to keep it simple for the first year, better to have it simple and successful then have it to complicated and fail.
along the same lines as your email have separate events for different class of weapons (pistol, semi-auto/battle rifle, and long rifle). Pistol and battle rifle events could be a "shoot and advance" event. Both time and accuracy would be taken into consideration. The first few targets would be engaged at the start line using your 8'x4' plywood idea. Have the shooters start out kneeling or prone and progress to standing unsupported. Once done then the shooter could advance to the next box/window. combining your ideas into one shooting course would reduce the amount of setup time.

For the long rifles it would be all about accuracy and distance. Have targets staggered out by every 200 meters out to the max distance for the range. Two or three different targets could be placed at each distance (2'x2' square, bowling pin, Oreo).

If you need help setting up on Wednesday I am more then happy to help out. This offers goes out to helping setting up DEFCON shoot in general as well.

[TheSiscoCoon]

Re: Competition Shoot for DefCon21 Shoot Event

Edit: I've been thinking about it and I don't think it would be much trouble to have a number different class weapons. I just hope there isn't 1 guy/girl that wants to do it with there revolver or something and he is the only one in that class of weapon. FYI I was thinking about 10 targets each day (that way I can reuse them the next day instead of building a ton of them) with a 2 shot ONLY (If you miss you miss). The Long Range Event (1 Shot Sniper) if done would be with an exploding target. :) And I will pay for all this myself if I get enough people telling me they will sign up for the Challenge. Remember it's FREE. If you want to do this please let me know.

I agree at keeping it simple.

My plan was to do 2 different one's, one each day because not everyone may be able to be there on the other day. I also want to keep the course small so that a lot of time isn't spent setting it up and for each person to shoot for a long time. That way they can do the course in a short time and then go play with there guns at the normal range or watch other people shoot there stuff. The idea would be to only have each shooter take about 5 mins to do the course each day. Like i said just something simple and fast. The running one would involve me making a bunch of stands at different heights with targets on the top of them. The next event wouldn't involve running but would be a simulation of shooting behind cover hence the 4'x8' sheet of plywood with different size and hight windows in it. On each end of the plywood board the shooter would have to stretch out from the side in a standing position and shoot around the side of the wood. And from shooting behind the board through the different windows at the same different height targets as the day before. That keeps me from having to make a crap load of targets to shoot at.

Since not everyone will have or have assess to each and every type of weapon, I figured we could just keep it simple and have all rifles together and all pistols together rather than have so many different class of weapons. It's more for fun than it is to award trophies to anyone. And maybe another event of the 1 Shot long range sniper kind of thing. Where you grab your gun run to the station set your gun up dial it in and take 1 shot to hit the target. It would be a pass or fail, and those that passed would be count by time and the fastest 1 Shot Kill would win. As for the scoring for the rest I was just thinking about a simple points system. A hit gives you so many point and miss takes away so many points. Then it would go against time. If say a shooter hit all the targets and never missed then he would have the most point. If another shooter did the same thing then the 2 would be rated by how fast they did the course. I understand some will not have a weapon that shoot fast so they may not win but like I said I'm trying to keep it very simple and it's more for fun than anything else.

[Deviant Ollam]

Re: Competition Shoot for DefCon21 Shoot Event

Glad to see SiscoCoon posting here. He's had some good back-and-forth with me via email.

I like the idea of a run-and-gun as long as the following points are ironclad...

• Shooting and scooting in totally safe directions, and that pertains to both your own firing positions as well as the firing line of the main DEFCON Shoot
• Observing -- if possible -- the same cease-fires that we do on the main line, just so no one hears loud reports during clear times. If you're far enough away that sounds are clearly coming from another area then I have less concern
• It is understood that I am not involved in any way with planning this side activity and people shouldn't direct questions to me about it with the expectation that I have any answers. ;-)

[TheSiscoCoon]

Re: Competition Shoot for DefCon21 Shoot Event

Again thanks very much Deviant for helping me on the forum so I can post this info much sooner.

Safety is #1 and anyone wanting to do the course will have to follow the rules of safety. Once I see the site for myself and map things out I'll be sending him the info and make sure he agrees with the setup and all of the safety rules. If he wants to add more rules to the course WE WILL have to follow them. I will be the one setting this up and organize it all if I get enough people requesting they want to do the course. So please email me, post here or PM me if you have any questions or concerns or just want to say you want in on the Competition. Deviant has enough to do than to deal with my little idea.

Along the safety issue there are 2 rules I have already decided that I will not change or adjust. First my goal is to be as far away from the normal event as I can for safety! Second is NO ONE is to have there hands on there weapons at anytime they are running from one shoot point to the next. If you have a pistol it will be holstered BEFORE you leave the shooting point to run to the next shooting point. For Long Guns it would be best if you had a sling but if not your hand CAN NOT be near the trigger. I don't need anyone to shoot them-selfs or someone else because there running and trip on a rock.

Anyone can email me at: The_Sisco_Coon(at)Yahoo(dot)com

[Kawataro]

Re: Competition Shoot for DefCon21 Shoot Event

I like where this is going, cant wait for it to solidify! I appreciate you guys getting into this and setting it up. If I can assist, let me know.
For some course setup ideas, check out the links to the COF (Course of Fire) for a few events at my local chapter, or any IDPA event. They are all over the U-tubes also.
Looking at how IDPA runs an event should also get you a good idea of safety and range officer placement and duties.
Ill be there with my Sig 226 TacOps.

[TheSiscoCoon]

Re: Competition Shoot for DefCon21 Shoot Event

Thanks for the support, I look forward to seeing you there.

[TheSiscoCoon]

Re: Competition Shoot for DefCon21 Shoot Event

Hello Everyone,

Here is a link to the shoot site as of a few weeks ago or so. If you read the simple text file first it will explain things for you. In keeping with Deviant's requests I'm setting this challenge as far away as I can from the rest of the normal shooters. And since I'm funding this all on my own and because it is the first time I'm keeping things very very simple. But should be a lot of fun anyways. The course will be a total of 20 Rounds fired, but will require at least one Mag change. So basically Two 10 rounds mags. Each target will be shot at 2 times hit or miss!! You shoot 2 rounds if you miss you move to the next, the reason behind this if for a number of reasons. One to keep the time each person is on the course down, two for those of you that decide to do this last min and barrow a gun and ammo you will not have to buy a lot of ammo, and three it adds a skill level at being able to only take two shots to hit a target.

I'm pretty sure I'll not be able to bring enough of that paper part of the target you will be shooting at for everyone, but I will be able to bring enough for some. I'll let everyone know in here later as to the exact size and shape in a PDF they can download and print, but please be aware you may need to bring your own targets. Not to worry it will not but much to pack, I'm thinking cardboard about 8" in Dia. in any color you wish.

If anyone has any ideas I'll gladly take them in to consideration, as well if anyone is able to help me setup or score people that would be great too.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/r31ae1owdyf9ocu/-m3mSfK3Vj

[seeess]

Re: Competition Shoot for DefCon21 Shoot Event

Do you have a time for this? I'd suggest after the main shoot so people aren't wasting the lane time they paid for.

Looks like the gun will need to fit a holster right?

What are the restrictions on the gun, optics, does it have to fit in a box, or shoot a minimum caliber?

How to people sign up?

This should be fun.

[TheSiscoCoon]

Re: Competition Shoot for DefCon21 Shoot Event

Do you have a time for this? I'd suggest after the main shoot so people aren't wasting the lane time they paid for.

Looks like the gun will need to fit a holster right?

What are the restrictions on the gun, optics, does it have to fit in a box, or shoot a minimum caliber?

How to people sign up?

This should be fun.

There is no time limit, no caliber limits, there is no gun restrictions. The are only a few restrictions and most of them are just safety issues.

First thing on restrictions, I'm only going to have two different scoring groups (Long Guns & Hand Guns). For Hand Guns you MUST HAVE a HOLSTER for it. If you have a scope or red dot sight or anything that is fine but you must have a holster for it. The Hand Gun must be holstered before and during the course when you are running from one shooting box to the next. For Long Guns you MUST HAVE A SLING and just as with the hand guns you must re-sling your Long Gun before you start running (a tactical sling would work best). The basic idea is this: When your running your hand/finger will be no where near the trigger just in case during the rush trying to run the course or if you trip on a rock or something. You will not accidentally fire off a round and maybe injure yourself or someone else (sounds reasonable right?).

The only other safety issue is as always "Eyes & Ears", I don't care what it is you bring just something to protect your eyes with (Good Sunglasses are fine by me) and something to protect your ears so you don't blow your ear drum. That is really the only safety issue people need to make sure they have brought with them to do the challenge. I'll provide the orange vest and other things each shooter will need.

Now with what ever gun you decide to use for the challenge, there MUST be 1 Mag change. You will be shooting 2 rounds at each target and no more, there will be 10 targets for you to shoot so you will shoot a total of 20 rounds in the end. If your gun can hold 25 rounds you HAVE TO DO a mag change. I don't care when you do the mag change during the course. You could put 15 rounds in your first mag and 5 in your last it makes no difference to me. The point to it is to challenge each shooter to do a mag change fast.

You asked me about Time.....It will be open for any shooter to run the course during the day (when it is starting to get dark is when it will close). I will have it setup for BOTH days so there is plenty of time for everyone to get the chance to run the course. It shouldn't take any longer than 10min for each shooter to do, it will be a very very simple setup. As for clothing once again I don't care what people will wear, just keep in mind you will be in the bushes and may want to wear paints and good shoes. But if you don't even want to run I don't care you can walk to each box and shoot at the targets. If you want to run/walk the course in flip flops I don't care it's all up to you. I want this to be easy, simple, and fun for everyone. If I have my Sig still I'll have that gun and ammo for it for ANYONE to use to run the course with. It's picky on ammo so you will have to buy mine for like 1 buck per Mag. If you have your own 22LR you want to use your welcome to try it in the gun to see if it will shoot it. But I only have 1 Mag for the gun so you can only shoot each target once if you want to run the whole course. I'm offering it so that people that came from other countries and can't bring any guns or for those that just simply don't own one can get the chance to shoot.

I'll send links to PDF's for the registration that you will need to bring with you and for the size and shape of the targets you will need to bring with you as well to do the challenge. Don't worry I'll have some extra targets and registration forms for people that forget to bring theres or just didn't know about it.

Right now I'm sorry I don't have everything ironed out yet. I currently am having some family problems that is taking up my time and possibly will prevent me from setting up this challenge. I may have to move back to Florida and if I do I will not have the means to bring all this stuff to NV. Unless you know of anyone that is doing a road trip from Florida to Nevada that can take on an extra passenger. I'll keep everyone posted as soon as I know if it is a "go" or "no go".

[seeess]

Re: Competition Shoot for DefCon21 Shoot Event

Thanks for the clarification, the only reason I ask is so these questions don't come up when half the people have run the course and find out they could've used a different gun or used a different technique. Everything defined from the beginning should help avoid that frustration.

The basic idea is this: When your running your hand/finger will be no where near the trigger just in case during the rush trying to run the course or if you trip on a rock or something. You will not accidentally fire off a round and maybe injure yourself or someone else (sounds reasonable right?).

Does this mean I cant have my primary hand on the pistol grip of an AR15, with my finger outside of the trigger guard for example? I don't compete in any shooting competitions but is this common? If I have to run with my gun slung without touching the pistol grip I cant control the muzzle very well / at all. I'd instead mandate that safeties be used between each shooting location (when available) and allow people to run holding their pistol grip with their finger off the trigger.

In other competitions I've seen designated areas where you can shoot from, you have to run between them and cannot shoot when you are not in those boxes. Do you plan on doing something like this?

For reloading, if there are boxes to shoot from, do reloads have to be completed in the box or can those be be done while moving?

[TheSiscoCoon]

Re: Competition Shoot for DefCon21 Shoot Event

Thanks for the clarification, the only reason I ask is so these questions don't come up when half the people have run the course and find out they could've used a different gun or used a different technique. Everything defined from the beginning should help avoid that frustration.



Does this mean I cant have my primary hand on the pistol grip of an AR15, with my finger outside of the trigger guard for example? I don't compete in any shooting competitions but is this common? If I have to run with my gun slung without touching the pistol grip I cant control the muzzle very well / at all. I'd instead mandate that safeties be used between each shooting location (when available) and allow people to run holding their pistol grip with their finger off the trigger.

In other competitions I've seen designated areas where you can shoot from, you have to run between them and cannot shoot when you are not in those boxes. Do you plan on doing something like this?

For reloading, if there are boxes to shoot from, do reloads have to be completed in the box or can those be be done while moving?

You ask good questions and all I have thought about already. The Registration form will have all the details for everyone to read and sign, it will also be your scoring card as well. As for your AR15 I don't mind holding the pistol grip with your finger outside the trigger guard as long as your safety is on. I do realize that those that have Long Guns will have to hold there gun in some way to keep it from moving when they are running. Probably not if they have it slung on there back but that will take up a lot of time to do for each "Shooting Box" which is why I suggested a "Tactical Sling".

You also asked about mag changes and shooting boxes. I have been mentioning "Shooting Box" or "Box" in a number of my posts. Yes there will be Boxes outlined on the ground via a bright color paint. I may also have a symbol on the ground telling the shooter He/She will have to shoot the targets standing, from a kneeling position, or anyway the shoot desires. ALL Mag Changes, Holstering, or re-slinging MUST BE done in the shooting box BEFORE you start running to the next box. When each shooter is running all I want them to be doing is paying attention to where they are running to next and what obstacle may be in there way. This goes as well if your walking the course too.

I want this to be simple and easy on both me and the shooter. That is why I'm only demanding a few things from the shooter to bring with them. And they are really just about safety and not what clothing, type of gun, holster, or sling you must have. I'll instruct each shooter before they run the course what they can and can not do. Anyone that knows about this Challenge most likely already has a holster of some sort for there pistol or a sling for there Long Gun and at least one more Mag for there gun. Other than the normal "Eyes and Ears", everyone is pretty much free to have any kind of setup they want. The Restrictions/Rules are more about safety than anything else. If I feel your other setup is safe you can use it. FYI I'll be running next to you watching and scoring you so I don't want to get shot, if you want to shoot yourself then by all means do so, it's more about my safety and others :)

If anyone has questions about what they can or cannot bring with them please ask your questions in here and I will write back.

Like I said simple and easy, here is an example: If you only have a BB Gun or a Paint Ball Gun you can use that to do the course. If someone does want to use one of those I will allow them to have a Mag of 20 rounds and NOT require them to do a mag change. I will not score them with the others however, they will be classed as "Other". That is if anyone does bring that kind of setup.

I hope I answered your questions and concerns, if not please ask away.

[seeess]

Re: Competition Shoot for DefCon21 Shoot Event

I hope I answered your questions and concerns, if not please ask away.

You did thanks. You clearly have it under control, see you there.

[Deviant Ollam]

Re: Competition Shoot for DefCon21 Shoot Event

i like how this is shaping up. thanks for all the hard work on this, Sisco Coon. i can't wait to see how it all takes form on the days of the DC Shoot.

[TheSiscoCoon]

Re: Competition Shoot for DefCon21 Shoot Event

i like how this is shaping up. thanks for all the hard work on this, Sisco Coon. i can't wait to see how it all takes form on the days of the DC Shoot.

Thanks Deviant.

It looks like I'll be there for the event and will setup the Competition Shoot. It was touch and go with the problems I've been having, may still have problems but nothing will happen before the event so I'll be there. Monday I'll be at the local hardware store buying supplies to build the targets and for Deviant the lane markers for the shooting lanes. Also Deviant I'll be there Tuesday night camping and will be able to help you to setup the tents and shooting lanes Wednesday. Do you want your lane markers from 1 -10 start from the "left to the right" or start from the "right to the left"? As in standing back looking at the backstop do you want Lane 1 on the far Left and Lane 10 to the far Right? Or do you want it to go the other way or does it matter? I can email you a picture of one of the lane markers if you want when I get one built.

For those of you that are going to try your hand at the Competition I will have PDF's for you to print up and fill out to bring with you soon.

If anyone would like to post that they are going to be doing the Competition and would like to let everyone on here know and what they will be using for the event please post it here.

As for me I'll need someone to time and score me but I'll be using my Rock Island Armory 1911 shooting 45ACP. I've just custom loaded my ammo for the event already :) .......So what are you bring?