Welcome to DEF CON 21! How would you make DEF CON 22 even better?

[Tribalsoul]

Re: Welcome to DEF CON 21! How would you make DEF CON 22 even better?

Oh and I agree with the musical diversity. If I have new equipment by next year, I'd be happy to do a psychobilly/rock/punk set.

Make sure you apply next year. Who knows what will happen?

That being said, there hasn't been a large demand from the survey we (A&E) put out for live music. There's still a chance to get your input in though!

https://forum.defcon.org/showthread.php?t=13624

[panadero]

Re: Welcome to DEF CON 21! How would you make DEF CON 22 even better?

I'm glad to hear the schedule speaker order is being re-arranged.

Also, I know that everyone was busy setting up but it would be great if the villages opened on Thursday. I felt like I spend most of Thursday just waiting for Friday to start.

Oh and I agree with the musical diversity. If I have new equipment by next year, I'd be happy to do a psychobilly/rock/punk set.

DC Goons and planners, thank you for all you do. As someone who does events professionally I seriously appreciate how well run the event is.

Keep in mind that a lot of Goons, Contest organizers, and Village organizers are generally volunteering at other cons, such as BSides and Blackhat, or enjoying those cons like a normal participant. Those that are holding down the fort on Thursday, like contests in the afternoon, vendor set up, etc... are strung tight as it is. Opening for a FULL day of all activities on Thursday is difficult to do. In order to have a full day of events on Thursday, would probably mean set up on Wednesday afternoon, ummm...probably not gonna happen. Let's not forget also, that most people have already been in Vegas since probably Tuesday, and even 3 full days at DEF CON is LONNNGGGG. Adding that full extra day on Thursday makes it LONNGGERRRRR...

[Whiskey]

Re: Welcome to DEF CON 21! How would you make DEF CON 22 even better?

I'm glad to hear the schedule speaker order is being re-arranged.

Also, I know that everyone was busy setting up but it would be great if the villages opened on Thursday. I felt like I spend most of Thursday just waiting for Friday to start.

Oh and I agree with the musical diversity. If I have new equipment by next year, I'd be happy to do a psychobilly/rock/punk set.

DC Goons and planners, thank you for all you do. As someone who does events professionally I seriously appreciate how well run the event is.

[GuloGuloDesu]

Re: Welcome to DEF CON 21! How would you make DEF CON 22 even better?

Pointing out something that some may not know...

Going back to DEF CON 5 (maybe earlier) we had people under 18 attending DEF CON. There were not MANY, and most were 16 or older, but we did have minors present. The first admin on the DEF CON forums attended his first DEF CON as a minor with his Mom, and was one of the youngest people to attend DEF CON.

My first Defcon was 7, and I was only 17 at the time. In all honesty I saw a lot of things that I shouldn't have. No I did not have a parent or guardian around, and no I did not notify the nearest authority figure. I have a feeling my life would have gotten a whole lot worse if I would have complained. But I was 17, why the hell would I complain?
And at the risk of sounding older, I feel that back then was a different time. Someone drunk pee'ing on a wall (whether at DEF CON or not), rarely got even noticed. Now they are arrested, charged, and registered as a sex offender.

Whoa. I'm not even REMOTELY suggesting that we should ban kids from DEF CON. I'm suggesting that we get rid of DEF CON kids.

I apologize, I don't think that my statement was thought out very well. I don't want to ban kids, and I don't want to cancel DEF CON kids, or ROOTz, or what ever it is called now. I think it is awesome that kids are learning. I wish it would have been around when I was that young, and that I would have had parents that would have brought me. Who knows what kind of mischivious skillz I would have by now.
I'm aware kids have been at DEF CON for a while now, but those kids, as TheCotMan stated, were usually elder teenagers. The kids that I am seeing now are preteens and younger.
I don't know what the solution is, I'm not even sure where to start. Maybe it involves some of us to only do stupid things at the parties where we are all carded. Maybe some of us are just too paranoid and we should act like we have always acted.
I'm also not too worried about a parent flipping out on me. Worst case I would just drunkenly stumble away ignoring them. Best case I would educate them on how what I do can be considered mild compared to what others have done at DEF CON. I'm more worried about an Occifer flipping out on me, those I usually can't ignore.....at least not well.

Not saying you have ever streaked through the con... Just saying they haven't caught Siv yet ;)

I am slightly more memorable then Siv. Even though most people know Siv, or at least know of Siv. If I were to go streaking through DEF CON, again, most people will remember the 7ft pale ass white guy when he runs past.

*Edit, fixed some typo's, it's way too early for me to be thinking.

[astcell]

Re: Welcome to DEF CON 21! How would you make DEF CON 22 even better?

Simple solution. Someone arrange activities for kids but invite everyone who wishes to attend. Queercon does just that. Also the unofficial shoot. And vegetarians are still welcome at the BBQ. Just about any event at Defcon may be geared towards one factor but the others are not denied access. Maybe we put on an event designed for kids and it becomes a hit with seniors. Don't have a track JUST for kids. Just have a track that kids will enjoy, put on by people who enjoy doing such a thing. No doubt there are mature adults out there who can benefit from the kid classes, and some kids may be bored with lower level tracks and prefer to tell Dam Kaminsky about a new DNS discovery. We don't need to re-engineer a solution.

[Chris]

Re: Welcome to DEF CON 21! How would you make DEF CON 22 even better?

AFAIK, not official... but DEF CON Kids is done with. It is now a separate organization (Roootz Asylum [sp?]). No expectation of a toddler safe 'moral' environment often leads to no charges. Expectation of a morally safe environment for little Timmy , often leads to charges. I believe that as the spirit of the statement and I agree with it, as well as what has happened with it. I think things are going fine.....

Not saying you have ever streaked through the con... Just saying they haven't caught Siv yet ;)


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You are correct that it's not DC Kids anymore. They can change the name all they want, but as long as they get time at closing, they are part of DEF CON. To think otherwise is being naive.

[blakdayz]

Re: Welcome to DEF CON 21! How would you make DEF CON 22 even better?

Whoa. I'm not even REMOTELY suggesting that we should ban kids from DEF CON. I'm suggesting that we get rid of DEF CON kids.

I understand your point and totally agree with what you are saying regarding the escalation of charges when minors are present but banning a group of people isn't the answer.

I'm saying that by having DC Kids we are "inviting" kids (for lack of a better word) and inadvertently conveying that it's kid friendly.

I'm less worried about the criminal side of things than the civil side when some parent loses their shit about what little Johnny was exposed to.

AFAIK, not official... but DEF CON Kids is done with. It is now a separate organization (Roootz Asylum [sp?]). No expectation of a toddler safe 'moral' environment often leads to no charges. Expectation of a morally safe environment for little Timmy , often leads to charges. I believe that as the spirit of the statement and I agree with it, as well as what has happened with it. I think things are going fine.....

Not saying you have ever streaked through the con... Just saying they haven't caught Siv yet ;)


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[Chris]

Re: Welcome to DEF CON 21! How would you make DEF CON 22 even better?

Alright, just to kick a dead horse one more time.

I don't necessarily want to ban children from Defcon, but I am concerned about their presence.

For the sake of argument. If I went streaking through Defcon under NRS201Sec220 I would be guilty of indecent exposure, first offence is a misdemeanor and the second offence is a class D felony (NRS193Sec130)

Class D felony is mandatory 1 year in a state prison (max of 4 years).

But if a child is present to witness me streaking through Defcon, it no longer falls under NRS201Sec220, it now falls under NRS201Sec230 which is a class A felony.

Class A felony is a mandatory life sentence with the possibility of parole after 10 years in a state prison (max of life without parole).

I found this article which stated that with a minor present a 220 gets upgraded to a 230:
http://www.lasvegascrimelawyer.com/C...-Exposure.aspx

Sorry I did not take the time to hunt down any court cases that show the precedence of a 220 being upgraded to a 230.

In either case, except possibly the misdemeanor, I would be classified as a sex offender for life.

This is my concern with kids at Defcon. I don't have a solution for it, and I don't have any ideas. I'm just trying to shed some light on my concerns.
I will also do my best not to go streaking through Defcon any time soon ;)

Whoa. I'm not even REMOTELY suggesting that we should ban kids from DEF CON. I'm suggesting that we get rid of DEF CON kids.

I understand your point and totally agree with what you are saying regarding the escalation of charges when minors are present but banning a group of people isn't the answer.

I'm saying that by having DC Kids we are "inviting" kids (for lack of a better word) and inadvertently conveying that it's kid friendly.

I'm less worried about the criminal side of things than the civil side when some parent loses their shit about what little Johnny was exposed to.

[TheCotMan]

Re: Welcome to DEF CON 21! How would you make DEF CON 22 even better?

Pointing out something that some may not know...

Going back to DEF CON 5 (maybe earlier) we had people under 18 attending DEF CON. There were not MANY, and most were 16 or older, but we did have minors present. The first admin on the DEF CON forums attended his first DEF CON as a minor with his Mom, and was one of the youngest people to attend DEF CON.

I understand there is a maturity difference between someone 15-18 and "kids" that are 8-14, but we have had minors at DEF CON even when there was more nudity and streaking such as when we were at the Alexis Park. Truth is, both groups are "minors." (I'm not saying minors were present when streaking or nudity was happening -- I have ZERO evidence of that, only that there have been minors attending DEF CON, not that they were in line-of-sight of these activities.)

Also, before DEF CON kids, there was information on the DEF CON website that said DEF CON was open to adults of all ages, and anyone under the age of 18 should be accompanied by a parent or guardian. (I'm not sure if that text is still present, but have not looked for it recently.)

[GuloGuloDesu]

Re: Welcome to DEF CON 21! How would you make DEF CON 22 even better?

Alright, just to kick a dead horse one more time.

I don't necessarily want to ban children from Defcon, but I am concerned about their presence.

For the sake of argument. If I went streaking through Defcon under NRS201Sec220 I would be guilty of indecent exposure, first offence is a misdemeanor and the second offence is a class D felony (NRS193Sec130)

Class D felony is mandatory 1 year in a state prison (max of 4 years).

But if a child is present to witness me streaking through Defcon, it no longer falls under NRS201Sec220, it now falls under NRS201Sec230 which is a class A felony.

Class A felony is a mandatory life sentence with the possibility of parole after 10 years in a state prison (max of life without parole).

I found this article which stated that with a minor present a 220 gets upgraded to a 230:
http://www.lasvegascrimelawyer.com/C...-Exposure.aspx

Indecent exposure involving minors is considered a sex crime against a child or lewdness with a child. This can be considered a category A felony.

Sorry I did not take the time to hunt down any court cases that show the precedence of a 220 being upgraded to a 230.

In either case, except possibly the misdemeanor, I would be classified as a sex offender for life.

This is my concern with kids at Defcon. I don't have a solution for it, and I don't have any ideas. I'm just trying to shed some light on my concerns.
I will also do my best not to go streaking through Defcon any time soon ;)

[Tynius]

Re: Welcome to DEF CON 21! How would you make DEF CON 22 even better?

Tell her about Ada Lovelace. Keep the fire stoked!

Yep, also worked with her in scratch this morning, and she's getting snap circuits for her birthday next month :).

Ty

[astcell]

Re: Welcome to DEF CON 21! How would you make DEF CON 22 even better?

For the record - we brought our 4 yr old this year - so that's for context.

Agreed wholeheartedly. I brought my daughter to Defcon, having gone for 4 years, and knowing full well what goes on at Defcon.

Tell her about Ada Lovelace. Keep the fire stoked!

[Tynius]

Re: Welcome to DEF CON 21! How would you make DEF CON 22 even better?

Again, I know I can't say, "Well, just change the way you feel."

Rereading my post above I realize I may have unintentionally included that thought as a subcontext by not explicitly stating this. Not intended. I completely understand the OP's feelings, and my post was by way of saying "if it was me and my kid and we'd walked in on C&C at that moment, I would have seen it as my issue, and not yours." Heck the Rio offered me lots of those moments without any help from C&C! She's been to Pride Day in Toronto, and trust me, nothing I've seen at Defcon comes close to the parental gut check THAT one took! She loved the beads tho!

Ty.

[zeroaltitude]

Re: Welcome to DEF CON 21! How would you make DEF CON 22 even better?

I never said I didn't want kids at DEFCON. I was speaking of one particular place that was censored because of the children in the room and that bothered me. I am not comfortable parading around in my underwear or whipping my tits out in front of a little kid . call me a prude but that's not really how I roll and that is not a situation that I nor the contestants nor the rest of team distraction should have been put in to start with. This is the 4th DEFCON that i have been to and this is the first one where I had to be conscious of my behaviour and dress because of children by putting me in that situation I am forced to make that decision.

Hmmmm, I hear what you're saying, I respect your opinion, but I have no f-n clue how to assist or "fix it". I'm sorry your fun was dampened, that sucks. I feel where you are coming from, and in your shoes I might've done the same thing.

It's hard to change that gut reaction of wanting to avoid doing things that feel non-kid-friendly when kids are around. I guess the only thing I would say here is that the parents who take their kids to DefCon sound like they know what they are doing (from other posts I have read from them here). My take on it would be to encourage you to feel free to do what you were normally going to do, and let the kids and parents moderate themselves as they feel necessary. As a parent myself, I would only bring my kid to e.g. Crash and Compile if I though she was ready for it. I'm much more leery of my kids seeing violence than nudity or innuendo, and so I am much more comfortable at C & C than I would be in front of a lot of TV shows. FWIW.

Again, I know I can't say, "Well, just change the way you feel." But hopefully hearing the thoughts of an informed parent will make you feel like you can be free to be yourself at future DefCons, even those with kids present.

0a

[Tynius]

Re: Welcome to DEF CON 21! How would you make DEF CON 22 even better?

For the record - we brought our 4 yr old this year - so that's for context.

Let's remember that before there was KidCon, there was DEF CON. Alcohol abuse, smoking, half nakedness has been around a looonnnnnggggg time...and that's what makes DEF CON, well, DEF CON. It's up to the parents to keep their kids out of that situation.

Agreed wholeheartedly. I brought my daughter to Defcon, having gone for 4 years, and knowing full well what goes on at Defcon. I did a parental gutcheck and decided that she, my wife and I were up to the challenges, and that the benefits to her (outlined a few below) were worth the speech we gave her about adult themes and language.

My wife and I are not in the "Think of the children" crowd. We look at risks to our kid and make informed decisions after looking at all the evidence.

Things my kid got from Defcon/Rootz:

1) Self confidence. She picked her first lock. The folks at TOOOL were great and showed her how to get the positioning right and did NOT look astonished when she was successful
2) Seeing that there are other smart kids out there other then herself and that a good chunk of those are girls too (take THAT corporate marketing with your pink legos!)
3) Learning new things (snap circuits, scratch programming, lock picking) without mom and dad doing any of it for her.

This are things that far outweigh the "If you hear a word and you think it might be something you could get in trouble for repeating, ask us and we'll let you know. And if you see something you need explained, ask us, we'll explain" speech we had to give to our 4 year old. Heck she's been in grade school for a year now, it was time for that talk anyways.

Let us parents decide how to raise the kids. Some of us have our heads screwed on straight. Honest.

Tynius