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  • astcell
    replied
    Re: current registrations, etc

    Originally posted by cmrn View Post
    Hey folks, Just wondering if there is anyway left to register. I realize i'm realllyyy late, but i'm a defcon n00b and am only now realizing this event exists.

    I'm canadian, never even seen an actual firearm in person (do i get pity points?)
    I have a lane. I am from Canada too. But living in America means I have guns like you have good manners. I hope you can make it out to the shoot, I will only be too happy to give you some education and experience.

    Leave a comment:


  • TheSiscoCoon
    replied
    Re: current registrations, etc

    Originally posted by cmrn View Post
    Hey folks, Just wondering if there is anyway left to register. I realize i'm realllyyy late, but i'm a defcon n00b and am only now realizing this event exists.

    I'm canadian, never even seen an actual firearm in person (do i get pity points?)
    I can't say yes or no to this question, only Deviant really can say for sure. However it is public land and I'm sure there will be no harm in showing up and watching. But the real problem is LANES!!!!! There are only so many lanes and I'm pretty sure they are all bought up. You can however show up pay the small fee to be active and try to get someone to let you use there lane for a little bit. There are also people there with lanes that have guns for NEW people to shoot if they want, all they have to do is cover the cost of the ammo.

    "Hacker War Games" contest will also be out there at the same site. I TheSiscoCoon am the lead organizer so I can say for sure your welcome to come out and run the course (Tactical Warfare type course). I have 2 different cal. guns for rent (22LR and 45ACP). For the first 30 people that want to shoot 22LR the cost is FREE, for the first 30 people that want to shoot 45ACP it is a cost of $8.00US cash. Those prices include the 1 round of 7.62NATO that you will need for Part 2 (1 Shot Sniper Shot). I provide all the equipment you will need if you decided to rent. If you want to bring your own firearm I suggest you check out my forum "Hacker War Games" on the defcon site.

    So no matter what come out and check things out, I'm sure you will have fun.

    TheSiscoCoon

    Leave a comment:


  • cmrn
    replied
    Re: current registrations, etc

    Hey folks, Just wondering if there is anyway left to register. I realize i'm realllyyy late, but i'm a defcon n00b and am only now realizing this event exists.

    I'm canadian, never even seen an actual firearm in person (do i get pity points?)

    Leave a comment:


  • cthulhucalling
    replied
    Re: current registrations, etc

    Originally posted by astcell View Post
    I have had folks want to shoot my guns and then I find out they barely know one end from the other. They are not as intuitive as one might think.

    I wonder if there may be enough people and a need for firearm familiarization? Maybe a 30 minute class option in the morning for the truly n00b? My state has a Handgun Safety Course which is a joke yet people still fail it. The study guides are 50 cents each and I can grab some for folks.
    I'll be RSO'ing for the second day of the shoot but will be there for the first day. If anyone need help on how to safely operate a firearm, I have no problem giving them a block of instruction. I'd rather miss out on trigger time than run the risk of someone being a safety hazard.

    Leave a comment:


  • CogR3z
    replied
    Re: current registrations, etc

    Is it too late to register for the shoot? I am very interested in attending --- as a gun n00b I plan to (primarily) be a non-nagging observer :) Are you accepting registrations/payment at the door?

    Leave a comment:


  • Deviant Ollam
    replied
    Re: current registrations, etc

    these are all great responses. thank you to folk for offering some guidance.

    registrations are still proceeding for the DC Shoot, but it will likely be smaller this year than in the past. we have the much bigger lanes for rent this year, but less of them (7 overall, i think) and they've all filled up, i believe. so that's pretty good.

    see you all out in the desert!

    Leave a comment:


  • astcell
    replied
    Re: current registrations, etc

    The only places I have encountered that use the proximity chip in the card are fast food stops like McDonald's. A few other points:

    - In America it is typical that employees ask for ID with your credit card. This is also illegal, but they do not know that. Just show them, it's easier and they get confused easily.
    - When they look at your ID most the time they do notknow what to look for and after about 8 seconds feel like they are invading your privacy and stop looking. So get a busy piece of paper to show them and laugh it off.
    - Charges under $20 no longer require a signature in many places, so the employee may scan your card and hand it back with a receipt and zero interaction on your part.
    - Buy American money in YOUR country, it is much cheaper. I used to buy my pounds in the UK at Tesco, or even at an ATM machine (Hole in the wall) and save over US rates and fees.

    Several ranges will not rent a gun to one person alone, they usually want more than one person there. There have been cases where a person rents a gun for suicidal reasons and ranges do not want the bad press. Then again this is Vegas, no idea what they do there, but just a head's up.

    To anyone who wants to shoot another's firearms, a few points to note: Ammo is not cheap. Even 22LR that was as cheap as water is up in price. The usual price of center fire ammo starts at 50 cents and can easily go to a dollar a round. Or more. No gun owners at Defcon are expecting to make bank on ammo markups, so if it sounds expensive we're sorry, it's not a cheap hobby any more.

    If guns are new to you, please say so. There is no dishonor in not knowing what we all had to learn. If you have been in five wars and know all about guns, well you do not know MY guns, and some of them are picky with ammo or technique. Questions are always okay.

    In other countries alcohol flows as freey as water. but on American gun ranges and shooting areas, stay 100% sober. Drink after the guns are clean and put away.

    And lastly, it cannot be said enough, the end of the gun that the bullet comes out of should always be pointing downrange. At one shoot a range guy in porange pointed out to me that I turned my gun sideways after I was done shooting. My bad. They are not there to make us feel guilty or pick on us, but to make sure everyone acts safe.

    Leave a comment:


  • TheCotMan
    replied
    Re: current registrations, etc

    Originally posted by jen2 View Post
    Thanks for that.. that's definitely not the kind of thing the travel agent would warn me about! Having never been to the US, I'd totally panic if I went to a restaurant near a hacker conference and they took my card out of my sight if you hadn't warned me. :)

    I think I'll end up just taking cash.
    Cash is a better way to go. Also, if you want to use an ATM, consider one at a "real bank" a bit of a distance away from DEF CON. I'm not saying hotel/casino security would not notice a bogus machine being dropped off, or modded to swipe user creds, or "hacked" and changed, or tampered with in some other way, but proximity to DEF CON seems to increase chances public devices you often trust outside of DEF CON (rightly or wrongly) may be re-configured to work against your interests.

    Enjoy your time at the DEF CON Shoot!

    -Cot

    Leave a comment:


  • jen2
    replied
    Re: current registrations, etc

    Originally posted by TheCotMan View Post
    Oh, a follow-up for you "dern ferners" (Darn Foreigners) :-)
    If you have never been to the US, it is very common for people in retail, food, services, etc. to take your credit card away from your sight, run it, and bring back paper to you. Some places have wireless, mobile units to allow you to run your own card from your location, or an employee run it for you without the card leaving your sight, but these are rare in the states, and uncommon.

    The Chip & PIN system you have in Europe is also uncommon here in the US. Most PoS terminals can't even read the chip. Don't be surprised if you are not asked for your PIN, but be prepared to enter it if asked.
    Thanks for that.. that's definitely not the kind of thing the travel agent would warn me about! Having never been to the US, I'd totally panic if I went to a restaurant near a hacker conference and they took my card out of my sight if you hadn't warned me. :)

    I think I'll end up just taking cash.

    Leave a comment:


  • TheCotMan
    replied
    Re: current registrations, etc

    Oh, a follow-up for you "dern ferners" (Darn Foreigners) :-)

    This is about places outside the "DEF CON Shoot" ...

    Two friends from outside the US came with me to a previous DEF CON, but were not able to "get their fix" of firing firearms, so they looked to take a trip to "American Shooters." It is a few "Las Vegas" blocks away from the Rio. (Las Vegas "blocks" are larger than found in most cities or residential spaces. Please use google maps to compute distance in Miles or Kilometers before deciding to walk there.)

    When renting weapons at places like "American Shooters" or "the Gun Store" you will need a driver's license, or passport and credit card to rent weapons. Unlike rules with Credit Card transactions in Europe, you may be asked to leave your credit card with the people renting the weapons. If you have never been to the US, it is very common for people in retail, food, services, etc. to take your credit card away from your sight, run it, and bring back paper to you. Some places have wireless, mobile units to allow you to run your own card from your location, or an employee run it for you without the card leaving your sight, but these are rare in the states, and uncommon.

    The Chip & PIN system you have in Europe is also uncommon here in the US. Most PoS terminals can't even read the chip. Don't be surprised if you are not asked for your PIN, but be prepared to enter it if asked.

    Anyway, my friends from outside the US had no problem using their passports and credit card to rent firearms at these local ranges, for use only at these local ranges. If you find you want to do moreshooting after the shoot, local Las Vegas ranges are an option. Call ahead to see if Passports are accepted for photo-ID when renting.

    Different ranges cater to different levels of experience. "The Gun Store" has (several years ago, last checked) been novice friendly, bordering on codependence. They carry your firearms to the range for you, load the weapons, set the weapon in place (such as with the SAW) so that is is ready to fire, and setup your targets for you. Then all you have to do is pull the trigger to shoot. This is displeasing to people that want to experience the whole process of being given control and responsibility to safely carry the weapons to the range, load it, prepare their target and shoot it. American Shooters does ask if you are familiar with shooting, and if you say you are, will give you more responsibilities and control. Other places with themes, which cater to tourists will often be more like "The Gun Store" with everything setup and prepared for you, letting you just shoot and not worry about anything else.

    More about local ranges... Costs are different for each location, and they each have different policies. At "The Gun Store" if I rented a SAW with 12 belts, and wanted to share my rental with 3 other people, they demanded that all people using it pay the fee for rental of the weapon, and each of us to pay a lane fee even when sharing the same lane. This can become very expensive. At American Shooters, I asked about this, and the people there allowed me to rent 3 firearms, and my buddy to rent 3 firearms, and we were allowed to share use of each of our 3 weapons without each paying for the rental of 6 weapons and share a lane. (This policy may change, and be different from one person behind the counter to another.)

    Many commercial ranges are "camera friendly" allowing or encouraging you to take pictures or video of your experience. However, please limit your recording or images or video to people in your party. Taking pictures of other people without permission is rude, and may lead to disagreements or conflict.

    Leave a comment:


  • astcell
    replied
    Re: current registrations, etc

    I have had folks want to shoot my guns and then I find out they barely know one end from the other. They are not as intuitive as one might think.

    I wonder if there may be enough people and a need for firearm familiarization? Maybe a 30 minute class option in the morning for the truly n00b? My state has a Handgun Safety Course which is a joke yet people still fail it. The study guides are 50 cents each and I can grab some for folks.

    Leave a comment:


  • jen2
    replied
    Re: current registrations, etc

    Great, thanks to both of you, that's really helpful :)

    Leave a comment:


  • seeess
    replied
    Re: current registrations, etc

    Deviant gives each lane a sign that let's you know if they allow other people to use their lane.

    So those that allow others in their lane, you can ask to rent their equipment. I post a sign with prices because it can be hard to communicate.

    I'd suggest you make it known that you are unfamiliar with guns. As long as you can follow instructions it won't be a problem. Like others said, you won't be the first newbie to rent a gun, just make it known so we can help you if you need it.

    I take the approach that there is no dumb question on the line. If you dont understand a response from me, or didn't hear, ask me again, as many times as it takes. I'd rather spend 2+ minutes explaining something insignificant than have a newbie "wing it" with a gun they are not familiar with.

    Leave a comment:


  • TheCotMan
    replied
    Re: current registrations, etc

    Originally posted by jen2 View Post
    Hi all. I'm a Brit coming over to Vegas for defcon and I'd like to sample some of your glorious Freedom by shooting some guns with you all. I've never even held a gun, though, and I've got no idea how it all works at all - can I 'rent' a gun while I'm there? Can I just buy bullets at a store before the event? Is my best bet to buy bullets, show up, and ask someone if I can use their gun in exchange for some bullets? Would using someone else's gun even be legal?

    Do I just register, show up, and.. shoot guns? I assume there's some n00b-orientation "don't point it at yourself" talk at the start.

    I hope these aren't too n00b-ish questions! I've read the site but I just know too little about guns (and America) to really get it all.

    I do not run this, and I am not staff with this or RSO. All of the items below are from experience in attending a few years. If Deviant has revisions or new information, go with what he says -- he is the guy running this.


    Last check, none of the "gun stores" provide rental to use non-LEO, out-of-towners to take out of the stores. "The Gun Store" and "American Shooters" have their own ranges for you to shoot the weapons they have available for rent, but only on their locations. Other "private ranches" have assortments of weapons to rent. However, this is not a commercial thing. This unofficial DEF CON event is organized by Deviant Ollam and several people that volunteer to help him as Range-Masters or RSO.

    At the DEF CON shoot, each person that brings their own weapons will have their own policies on allowing other people to shoot them. Some may allow people to shoot .22 cal for free, but reserve use of .50 cal, or full-automatic weapons to just themselves or by fee. (Bullets are expensive, and generally, the larger the calibre, the more costly. Also? Full-automatic weapons can easily burn through $50 or more in ammo under a minute: rate-of-fire x cost-per-round = $$)

    From this, it is in your interest to be social, and introduce yourself to people with weapons when the range is not "hot" -- you can find out who is willing and able to share their experience. Many "gun people" find this sporting or entertaining, and find joy in sharing this entertainment with others.

    In past years, some people have volunteered to run an "open table" with a primary concern to share use of what they bring, and a focus to help people new to handling and shooting firearms. We all benefit if you ask questions and learn.

    Even if people tell you shooting their weapons is free, please offer them some cash to help them cover the costs of rounds fired, cleaning & prep, plus transportation and time to bring them out.The can still decline payment if they want, but not offering something for these individuals can slowly lead to fewer people being willing to share in the future. (Much like the Toxic BBQ: First years? Everyone donated and shared, leading to a surplus, and extra stuff being brought back to goons at the hotel. Over time, more consumers than producers changed the culture.)

    On introductions...

    Check out Deviant Ollams site for the schedule for each day:

    http://deviating.net/firearms/defcon_shoot/

    A serious consideration each year is safety, so rules have been covered every year, with the assumption that there are new people every year that should hear them. Most experienced people understand the need for re-stating the rules for safe use of firearms, even if they know all of them.

    The "Intro & Safety" after registration on the web page mentioned above has what you are after. You should be asked and be informed of things like
    1) What are the 3 (or 4) rules for safe use of firearms (you can look them up online before you arrive.) -- 3 or 4 depending on how they are grouped.
    2) What does it mean when the lanes/range is "hot" and how is a change to "hot" announced?
    3) What is a "cease fire"?
    4) Who can call a, "cease fire" and how?
    5) What should I do to firearms when a cease fire is called?
    6) When is is safe to move forward of "the line" to fix targets or adjust targets or inspect results?
    7) What do I do if a round becomes "stuck" in the chamber , I encounter a jamb with or without a live round , or round does not get discharged when the firing pin engaged the round?
    8) What is a Range Master? What about RSO? (Range Safety Officer) What about staff?
    9) How do I identify the RSOs?
    10) Which direction should the dangerous end of firearms be pointed when at the range?
    11) When can I bring my firearms to the tables?
    12) When can I handle firearms after setup, to show them off, and share the experience of holding them?
    11) Some people are sensitive to having their pictures being taken. Historically, you could announce your preference on being photographed or filmed. Ask about this if not covered, and please respect people's wishes on not being photographed or filmed. (Historically, there were 3 indicators: 1-- no pictures, 2-- pictures ok, but not on any public, social media, 3-- pictures fine, anywhere)
    12) Other "BLM" rules may be covered.
    13) Other questions?

    Bring your questions with you, and ask Deviant Ollam and other staff when you show up, or ask here on the forums.

    I won't be there this year, but I plan to return to it next year.
    Last edited by TheCotMan; June 26, 2014, 23:41.

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  • jen2
    replied
    Re: current registrations, etc

    Hi all. I'm a Brit coming over to Vegas for defcon and I'd like to sample some of your glorious Freedom by shooting some guns with you all. I've never even held a gun, though, and I've got no idea how it all works at all - can I 'rent' a gun while I'm there? Can I just buy bullets at a store before the event? Is my best bet to buy bullets, show up, and ask someone if I can use their gun in exchange for some bullets? Would using someone else's gun even be legal?

    Do I just register, show up, and.. shoot guns? I assume there's some n00b-orientation "don't point it at yourself" talk at the start.

    I hope these aren't too n00b-ish questions! I've read the site but I just know too little about guns (and America) to really get it all.

    Leave a comment:

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