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  • fiveatoms
    replied
    Originally posted by t0x0 View Post
    One of the biggest issues I saw at DC24 was 'turbulence' in the lines - two groups of people traveling in opposite directions through a narrow hall. This could be avoided by using alternate routes, for instance if you're going up to Bally's 26th floor, you use the basement elevators, if you're descending you arrive at Casino level, this way you remove one of the four competing flows (to the elevators, from the elevators, to the vendor/village area, from the vendor/village area). If you then have a "keep to the right" rule (which was implied) and a defined border to the oncoming traffic, you force people exiting the elevators to exit the choke point before they can turn around and head into the village/vendor area and you've streamlined things into two flows with less potential for obstacles (the breathing kind).

    I'm not a traffic engineer, so this may not work, but it seems logical.
    This makes a lot of sense. Another con I attend that has excellent elevator management procedures has a strictly-enforced practice of "off on 2, on on 1" to avoid traffic problems. (Exceptions are made as needed to accommodate those who couldn't use other means.) Not sure what Ceasar's would look like, but hopefully traffic flow has been or will be evaluated prior to dc25 to see if such a procedure would apply.

    Leave a comment:


  • sainate
    replied
    Thank you!

    Leave a comment:


  • TheCotMan
    replied
    Originally posted by sainate View Post
    Ahhhh, crap. I saw the 'tell us what you thought' and jumped a gun (RTFM style comments deserved). Yes, please move it :)
    Done! (Moved.)

    Leave a comment:


  • sainate
    replied
    Ahhhh, crap. I saw the 'tell us what you thought' and jumped a gun (RTFM style comments deserved). Yes, please move it :)

    Leave a comment:


  • TheCotMan
    replied
    Originally posted by sainate View Post
    Had an awesome time this year, huge thank you to all of the folks that worked hard to make it happen. Off the cuff (and in no particular order), a couple of things:
    • One way lanes to the speaker tracks. The goons had pathways clearly marked and told everyone where to go for the talk that they were in. Seemed to go a lot smoother this year. There were slow spots but it moved.
    • Last year, the massive traffic jam after the opening ceremonies on the Paris side was mitigated this year (a good thing). It was traded though for a slow crawl from the opening ceremonies all the way over to the Bally's side. I don't know that there's a way to fix it (aside from getting a bigger venue, which I believe has been done for DC25).
    • Registration went quickly and smoothly. There were folks lining up Wednesday evening and waiting all night. I got in line about 5:50am on Thursday and was out of the line, with my badge, by 7:10am. Seemed to run like a well oiled machine (awesome).
    • In room viewing of talks. We stayed at the Paris and last year were able to pick up some of the talks in the room. This year, we were only able to get a few of them (admittedly, we didn't spend a *lot* of time in the room, but when we did we tried not to miss anything) but it was just a default splashscreen or weather screen most of the time. Ultimately a positive because it made us do whatever we were doing and get back to the con, but it was nice to catch some of the talks on the local TV if the lines were too long or we weren't able to make it down for whatever reason.
    • Skytalks via the cargo elevator was an awesome plan to relieve some of the load on the main elevator and keep the hallway clear. I think that this was an after-the-fact plan but, regardless, seemed like a good plan.


    Again, kudos to all of the folks that worked so hard to make DEF CON awesome!!
    (This thread was primarily for feedback on the Hardware hacking Village. Would you like me to move this to the generic thread for all of DEF CON? It is ok if you want it to stay here. Thanks!)

    [EDIT: The post I replied to was in this thread: https://forum.defcon.org/forum/defco...at-you-thought and now has been moved to the location is is now, after reply from the original poster. (See below.) ]
    Last edited by TheCotMan; August 10, 2016, 14:11.

    Leave a comment:


  • sainate
    replied
    Had an awesome time this year, huge thank you to all of the folks that worked hard to make it happen. Off the cuff (and in no particular order), a couple of things:
    • One way lanes to the speaker tracks. The goons had pathways clearly marked and told everyone where to go for the talk that they were in. Seemed to go a lot smoother this year. There were slow spots but it moved.
    • Last year, the massive traffic jam after the opening ceremonies on the Paris side was mitigated this year (a good thing). It was traded though for a slow crawl from the opening ceremonies all the way over to the Bally's side. I don't know that there's a way to fix it (aside from getting a bigger venue, which I believe has been done for DC25).
    • Registration went quickly and smoothly. There were folks lining up Wednesday evening and waiting all night. I got in line about 5:50am on Thursday and was out of the line, with my badge, by 7:10am. Seemed to run like a well oiled machine (awesome).
    • In room viewing of talks. We stayed at the Paris and last year were able to pick up some of the talks in the room. This year, we were only able to get a few of them (admittedly, we didn't spend a *lot* of time in the room, but when we did we tried not to miss anything) but it was just a default splashscreen or weather screen most of the time. Ultimately a positive because it made us do whatever we were doing and get back to the con, but it was nice to catch some of the talks on the local TV if the lines were too long or we weren't able to make it down for whatever reason.
    • Skytalks via the cargo elevator was an awesome plan to relieve some of the load on the main elevator and keep the hallway clear. I think that this was an after-the-fact plan but, regardless, seemed like a good plan.

    Again, kudos to all of the folks that worked so hard to make DEF CON awesome!!

    Leave a comment:


  • t0x0
    replied
    One of the biggest issues I saw at DC24 was 'turbulence' in the lines - two groups of people traveling in opposite directions through a narrow hall. This could be avoided by using alternate routes, for instance if you're going up to Bally's 26th floor, you use the basement elevators, if you're descending you arrive at Casino level, this way you remove one of the four competing flows (to the elevators, from the elevators, to the vendor/village area, from the vendor/village area). If you then have a "keep to the right" rule (which was implied) and a defined border to the oncoming traffic, you force people exiting the elevators to exit the choke point before they can turn around and head into the village/vendor area and you've streamlined things into two flows with less potential for obstacles (the breathing kind).

    I'm not a traffic engineer, so this may not work, but it seems logical.

    Leave a comment:


  • TheCotMan
    replied
    On the items related to Hacker Jeopardy:

    I've found comments here and elsewhere happy and unhappy with Hacker Jeopardy. Some people believe it has been neutered, and been made PC and said they will not return to it. Some expressed joy in seeing Hacker Jeopardy and the entertainment it provided. Some did not like it and have provided different reasons.

    We really like constructive criticism. We like information on how you all would change DEF CON to make it better, what you would like to see return, and ideas you have on how to make your thoughts into functional parts of con.

    Open access to provide your opinions, even if they are in great contrast to other people's opinions is really great! We can have dialogue over items and issues.

    For arguments involving opinions, it is unlikely any kind of agreement would ever be reached. There are several arguments that often have no agreement:
    * Opinion / Subjective
    * Those where two sides cannot agree upon definitions of words used in debate
    * Paradox
    * Use of a discrete resource
    * [more]

    This is one of those "opinion" arguments. It is very unlikely we will solve this in any way that will make everyone happy.

    Arguments with each other also will not help people make decisions.

    The absolutely, best path you all have in seeing changes you want to see happen comes in providing your opinions, thoughts and ideas on how things can be made better, and make suggestions of how to make it work, considering possible consequences and addressing them.

    Thoughtful, reasoned arguments will gain the greatest traction when the people that run events like this, and goons that make decisions get together to discuss things like this.

    I write this now, not because any rules have been broken in this thread (constructive criticism is good (I do not like $thing**$idea and here is why), flaming is bad (you suck!)), but because I see a risk for this discussion turning into a collection of flaming comments directed at people, not issues. (We can learn things through constructive criticism. Flaming risks reduction to irrational, emotional comments that adds nothing to understanding, comprehension or education.)

    We want ideas. If you want your ideas to have the best chances for success, provide amazing arguments to support your ideas, even if those are for not changing something that you enjoy.

    Thanks!
    Last edited by TheCotMan; August 10, 2016, 12:28.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrMonopoly
    replied
    Originally posted by t0x0 View Post
    How about you and the rest of the SJW's start Beigecon.
    They have, it is called BsidesLV.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrMonopoly
    replied
    Badge Line: This was awesome. I got in line around 7:00 and had a badge about 45 minutes later.

    Badges: As someone else mentioned, I wish the badge was more useful this year. I think the badges are often done for the 1% who play the badge contest and ignore the other 99%. People seemed to be still trying to figure out how to do even basic interactions with the badge on Sunday, which is a waste. Personally, the DEF CON 22 badge is one of my favorite in recent years. It has blinky lights, buttons, a USB port, and included all the code needed to program it on Day 1. That means the casual person can spend an hour or two messing with and still have fun while the people who want to do the badge contest can still spend all weekend trying to decipher the codes.

    BlackHat Badge Fiasco: I did not go to BlackHat so I was not affected, but if I was, I would be livid. How did they run out of “real” badges when it was all pre-sold and they knew the exact number? I know there is a guy going around the forum telling everyone they shouldn’t complain since the paper badge still got you into the conference, but the fact is that DEF CON badges are important. That’s the reason why people line up the night before is to guarantee a real badge. DEF CON 20 badges were sold after the con for around $50, so I consider that to be the value of the badge. The people who pre-paid and got paper badges got robbed of $50.

    Pre-Reg: I wish DEF CON would move on from its “cash only” policy for badges. I understand why it started, but I think they are fooling themselves if they think the con is still underground considering the 20,000+ people that attend and the fact that it is in a casino with CCTV covering every inch. Allow people to pre-register and pre-pay online and have that guarantee you a “real” badge. You can still order some extra badges and do cash at the door for those who don’t want to pre-reg.

    Thursday: I know, DEF CON does not officially start on Thursday. It would be nice if this would change. I understand that this would be more work for the staff which is probably why it doesn’t happen. I just feel like Thursday is a complete waste. There are 101 talks, but since nothing else is open those are always packed. DCTV was also broken on Thursday, so if you wanted to watch a talk on TV you couldn’t. Maybe allow villages and vendors to optionally open early if they want?

    Venue: I’m looking forward to seeing Caesars next year. The walk between the two sides of DEF CON will not be missed.

    Swag: I was frustrated to see the swag booth closed on Sunday even though the program claimed it would be open. Why was it closed?

    Vendors: I was happy to see some vendors, like UAT, selling items this year even if it was just T-shirts. My wife got a shirt at their booth that she really liked. Most years there are 2-3 vendors that are selling nothing and just taking up space, and I’m not sure I saw that this year which is good.

    Douchebaggery: I know I’m going to get hate for this, but I think the douchebaggery is part of what makes DEF CON unique. It is a spectacle. There are plenty of other cons that are very serious and professional (and boring). My wife and I both attended Hacker Jeopardy and neither was offended. When I mentioned to her the controversy that was going on, her comment was “This is Vegas, isn’t that what the whole city is about?” If you are offended by drunk people saying stupid things, you probably should avoid Las Vegas all together.
    Last edited by MrMonopoly; August 10, 2016, 12:14. Reason: added comment about pre-reg

    Leave a comment:


  • t0x0
    replied
    Here's why this whole discussion pisses off a bunch of people.

    Originally posted by autobahn View Post
    #1: Hacker Jeopardy needs to...
    "OK, cool, that's your opinion, maybe we should discuss this."

    Originally posted by autobahn View Post
    So please, if you're male, you don't really get to dispute that.
    "Oh, I see. My opinion doesn't matter."


    Originally posted by autobahn View Post
    In general, I think defcon needs to make a real effort towards inclusion and diversity. I can already hear the kiddies yelling "SJW SJW SJW!!!"
    "Oh, 'inclusion and diversity' but I'm not even allowed to have an opinion or I'm a kiddy who hates women. Cool."

    This is why you get called an SJW. SJW doesn't mean you have opinions I disagree with, it means you're trying to stifle the opposition to your viewpoints with emotional leverage and guilt tripping. For the record, I've only been to HJ once, it doesn't seem like all that much fun to me, but some people enjoy it, it's practically an institution and goddamn it if three slides of "shit may be offensive, leave if you don't want to see it" aren't enough, then FUCK OFF. Most of the people (whether they are women or earnest supporters) who are all pissy about HJ weren't even there, they are getting their outrage on via Twitter, RTing someone's picture of a question about dicks. This is an after hours event at a non-professional con that has tons of disclaimers. Face it, you don't want diversity and inclusion, you want homogeneity, uniformity and beigeness - the same thing thousands people go to Vegas to get away from.

    How about you and the rest of the SJW's start Beigecon.

    Goddamn disclaimer that shouldn't be necessary:
    * Being an asshole to another person is not acceptable and I am not defending it.
    * Offensive content is not the same as being an asshole.
    * Not being polite is not the same as being an asshole.
    Last edited by t0x0; August 10, 2016, 10:51. Reason: stupid grammar

    Leave a comment:


  • fiveatoms
    replied
    Background: This was my third DEFCON, and I'll be coming back next year. I arrived Wednesday afternoon, stayed at Bally's, and departed Sunday evening. I did not attend any blackhat or bsides events. Thank you for taking this feedback.

    >>> Awesome, keep doing these things <<<
    + registration was super-efficient, the addition of the arcade games was pretty cool
    + artwork was FANTASTIC - tshirts/swag design, floor decals, badge work - all amazing
    + addition of arcade games to lounge area outside villages was cool
    + hotel experience was good
    + DC-TV once the sound issues were fixed was excellent
    + interactions with goons were mostly positive; I was (wrongly) accused of taking photos in a party where apparently that wasn't allowed. I explained that I was actually trying to avoid the people who were taking photos/video and the goon apologized and left me alone.
    + I said it in the 23 feedback and I'll say it again: It still felt like hacker summer camp. You are my people. <3 Everyone I talked to was so accepting and friendly in spite of my social awkwardness.
    + the addition of @wisp (women in security and privacy) in the vendor area was lovely to see

    >>> These things need improvement; suggestions included where relevant <<<
    - LINE MANAGEMENT: I suggested this last year and it would prevent the yelling/confusion problem that people were having: Assign one goon per line to stand at the end of the line with a sign on a tall pole that says "Track X - End of Line". Maybe it's a whiteboard taped to the end of a broom stick. Probably it's something more creative than that.
    - DC101: Another suggestion I made last year to help n00bs out: Could we get some mileage out of the previous recordings by having a room that plays the "101" level talks from youtube? No speaker commitment, but still a level of group experience by sitting together to watch.
    - volume of arcade games in the chillout room was initially way too loud (defeats the purpose of the room as a quiet chill space)
    / suggestion: keep arcade games in the lounge outside the chillout space
    - DEFCON 101 track - the line was so freaking long that I got in after an hour wait because so many other people gave up; also, once I got in the room I noticed there were seats available but goons were not letting more people in
    / suggestion: ? Not sure if this was a breakdown in communication or what
    - lack of water stations in the chillout room and general areas - needed to go into tracks or contest area to find water
    / suggestion: include more water stations in general areas like the chillout rooms
    - hotel food criticism - Napoleon's sold me a pulled pork sandwich that was a degree or two colder than room temp; of course I was starving and hungover and didn't want to wait in line again so I slammed it down, but that doesn't mean I wasn't full of ragrats doing it
    - shortage of swag, early closure of the swag room
    / suggestion: not sure, this one is hard to fix due to the way attendance is estimated
    - I wasn't sure where to find which talks would be broadcast on DC-TV, are they published somewhere?
    / suggestion: publish this somewhere and/or improve communication RE where it is published
    - technical issues connecting laptops to projectors: twice I heard speakers/speaker goons requesting mini display port to HDMI adapters
    / suggestion: communicate what type of hookup is going to be available so speakers can get the right hardware in advance, or provide an array of adapters so each speaker can connect quickly and easily
    - pool party bouncers were confiscating people's water bottles in order to charge $4 for a tiny bottle of water once outside - this doesn't sit well with me at all; they're encouraging dehydration incidents
    / suggestion: none, it's probably hotel policy and won't change just because I whined about it, but at least I feel better having done so
    - Hacker jeopardy douchebaggery and reports of harassment in general - I've addressed some of this on twitter and will post up here when I have more ducks in a row on that as far as concrete suggestions; bottom line is this: If you think that people who are upset about being harassed should leave, you are the problem and should kindly show your own self out.

    Random suggestions:
    . Help Wanted board at the DCIB for last minute setup help? I was bored on Wednesday night and was available to help but had no idea where to go. I wandered but didn't see anything promising.
    . I'd be happy to serve/consult with the department tasked with addressing diversity and inclusion; have them contact me if interested. I don't have all the answers, but I do have a willingness to get this problem sorted out so that all people feel included.

    Leave a comment:


  • autobahn
    replied
    Hello everyone!

    First off: Thanks to all who work so hard to put this event on. Your efforts are greatly appreciated.

    I remember after DC21 and the announcement on the move, I think DT was saying that he was concerned about filling up all the new space - hah! We chewed through a hotel in 2 short years.

    I'm going to start off with my PROS and CONS and elaborate a little more on how we can make the cons (and the con) better!

    PROS:
    -Goons this year were much more...tolerable? I don't know if this was because of deliberate action or otherwise, but if deliberate, bravo to those efforts. They do important work and I'm happy they were able to do this valuable work in a much nicer and pleasant way this year.
    -Utilization of the space that DC did have - excellent effort on this one.
    -Insoc! Awesome! I still would do countless terrible things to have Kraftwerk show up at Defcon, however.
    -DCTV was AWESOME when it worked. Seriously, the whole concept is great and makes waking up a "little too late" for that talk you wanted to see in the AM so much easier to catch!
    -ARCADE machines. Yay!
    -Hardware Hacking Village placement! Holy crap still super busy but felt like you could actually have a chance of sitting down or at least being in the area without death!
    -Car hacking village! Amazing stuff.
    -CGC - I unfortunately missed the main event, but awesome stuff.

    CONS:
    -Water stations. Where was the water?
    -Food cost. I know this is a tough one.
    -The layout for some reason felt more "tiring" this year.
    -Once again, the perennial lack of content for the "noobs".
    -Hacker Jeopardy/Douchebaggery.


    PRO/CON: Badges...

    OK so first, BADGES. Once again, kudos to all involved, I know a ton of work is involved with the badges and I totally love the work y'all do.

    Some contstructive criticism: Next time we have electronic badges, can they have a little more "out of the box" functionality? Even some more blinkenlights or otherwise. I just felt like my badge was sorta useless unless I was doing the badge challenge or attempting to hack it. That's not my priorities at con, but I'd still love to enjoy the badge. Also, the struggles for those who WERE trying to hack the badge illustrate this a little more. I guess what I mean is that I personally would love to see a little more priority on making the badges cool for all attendees and not just for those who want to hack and do the badge challenge. I get it, we're a hacker con, but...


    WATER - OK, seriously. We're in Vegas, it's dry. PLEASE, PLEASE make this a priority for next year to add more water stations in more locations. I know there were a few in certain places but they should be everywhere. Hydate, hydrate, hydrate. It's good for everyone.

    FOOD - I feel like this actually has been a step back from the Rio. While I think the "inherent quality" of the food inside the con areas is potentially higher, it was always served rather lukewarm and at that point where I wonder if food safety rules were being violated. Paying $$$$ for food that's not fresh is a real bummer. I get that there's a lot of restaurants around, but sometimes you just want to grab a hotdog in the chill room between things and it sucks to have to take a personal line of credit out for that and be unsatisfied. Also, what's with the shorty-ass soda bottles? Suggestions: work with the hotel to ensure food quality/hotness is up to par, and try to get them to reduce prices a little bit.

    LAYOUT- The move to Caesar's will probably solve a lot of this, and maybe it's just because I'm getting older, but damn if getting between the two venues didn't get a little old. I guess people are probably working on this, so awesome!

    NOOB CONTENT - I'm not a noob, but SO MANY PEOPLE ARE. I don't know if there needs to be a focus on this, or if a new group or task force or something needs to be spun up, but I talked to a lot of people who felt "lost". Now, some may say that defcon's not for noobs, and if that's the official opinion of the con, I get it. But if Defcon wants to be accessible to new attendees and provide good things for them, I'd suggest as I have previously that DC101 actually be a 101 track or partially a 101 track. It's not a 101 track right now, it's almost an extra regular speaking track. I get that there's workshops and villages but these aren't always apparent for the noobs and their schedules often aren't really easy to follow. Do you need speakers willing to do 101-level talks that may not be cutting edge? Ask! Reach out! I'm sure some people would love to help educate others. I've said this before but I want to keep repeating it because I think it's important.

    DOUCHEBAGGERY - OK. So this is going to make some people groan, but it's my opinion and I'm going to throw it out there: #1: Hacker Jeopardy needs to ditch the women stripping for the daily doubles. It's just a relic of the past and reflects really, really poorly on our community in general. Frankly, it paints defcon as a place for juvenile hornballs to get their jollies while women are on stage for decoration and service. Plus, regardless of the "you don't have to go if you don't want to see it" BS, it does indeed make for a hostile environment to women. There's enough of them saying it to prove that. So please, if you're male, you don't really get to dispute that. There are plenty of strip clubs in vegas that people can visit on their own time.

    I get it, people are going to disagree with me, and even some women will disagree with me. HJ can still be fun and crazy and zany without the sexist undertones, please.

    In general, I think defcon needs to make a real effort towards inclusion and diversity. I can already hear the kiddies yelling "SJW SJW SJW!!!" but seriously. Defcon's behind on this. I'd love to see DT/others work on creating a diversity/inclusion department or at least including that as a core function of one of the existing departments. Defcon needs a much more solid code of conduct, that code of conduct needs to be communicated WELL to all attendees, and it needs to be enforced. Also, attendees need to feel safe and comfortable and have a place to report things that violate said code of conduct. I've heard comments from many that they simply don't feel safe reporting things to the goons some times, or that goons have actually dismissed their concerns. Some thought should go into this.

    Once again, thanks to all involved for a wonderful con and thanks for listening!

    Leave a comment:


  • Gigs
    replied
    First off, compliments to the SOC and other goons. The new "kinder, gentler" cattle prods are a welcome improvement.


    I said this in last years recovery thread too, but I'd really like to see a return of a random unorganized outdoor hangout area, like our old smoking areas in previous hotels. I know this is more up to the hotel layout than anything else, but it's something I really miss. The closest thing we had at Bally's and Paris was the casino area near the elevators in Bally's, but it just wasn't the same, being that it was in a traffic flow area, and there were casino floor security cameras staring at us all over.

    Leave a comment:


  • seeess
    replied
    Obviously there were significant AV issues. I won't claim to know the source of the problem, but in nearly all instances it was fixed with a volunteer laptop. There should be a defcon provided laptop in each track, this would've saved many presentations.

    Even if there weren't AV issues, some of the 30 minute presentations did not have nearly enough time to get through their talk. In a few other 1 hour talks, they finished after 25-30 min. There probably needs to be more planning by the presenters to keep them on time. It seems like the current system of a goon holding up their hands with the amount of minutes left works, but can end up with a presenter trying to cram half their presentation into the last 5 minutes. Let me offer a better but more complex solution:

    Presenters should be doing dry runs hopefully, from these dry runs they should have a rough idea of what slide they should be on after 5/10/15/20/25... minutes. From this information presenters can tell if they are falling behind earlier in their presentation with a basic red/yellow/green light.

    Leave a comment:

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