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**number6** · 2023-05-26T19:20:30

Originally posted by internetking View Post

hey all

does defcon have policy if someone fell asleep during confrence get kicked for the night? or no? if yes i need exception since i tend to fall aleep for no reason this reare but if happens so know why

I don't know about any policy to kick someone out of DEF CON or the property for *just* accidentally falling asleep while sitting in a chair in a speaker track.

HOWEVER, if you fail to wake up when asked to wake up, or wake up, but not enough to demonstrate you are coherent enough to answer some questions, or maybe perform basic actions to test for some possible medical issues, then there may be consequences in the form of a medical alert, or calling an ambulance, or involving Hotel/Casino security on a possible medical issue that needs attention.

If you do wake up enough to demonstrate you are coherent, and demonstrate an understanding of question with answers, then the goon or hotel/casino security may ask you to go to your hotel room to sleep.

This is how accidentally falling asleep while sitting in a chair listening to a speaker present their talk may not be a problem by itself, but when combined with other things can lead to consequences.

When asked to leave a space, and you refuse, that is a risk for breaking rules of trespassing. A Hotel/Casino security member could escalate failure to abide by request to leave to being a trespassing issue, and maybe ban you from their property, or worse. DEF CON goons can't do much if you are arrested, or if the hotel/casino bans you from their property. Even if DEF CON goons can do anything with hotel/casino to deal with a case when someone is banned from their property, it can often take years.

If you fall asleep in a speaker track and start making noise like snoring, and that interferes with other people's enjoyment of DEF CON, you may also be asked to leave the speaker track.

Falling asleep in an elevator, on stairs, on an escalator, in a doorway, in a hallway where people walk, all could raise issues with violations of the fire code. That is more serious, and are almost all guaranteed to result in being asked to go to your room to sleep. Putting other people's lives at risk in case of fire is a problem for everyone.

From the DEF CON FAQ, you have this:
DEF_CON_FAQ_URL=https://defcon.org/html/links/dc-faq/dc-faq.html

Originally posted by DEF_CON_FAQ_URL

Is it hot in Vegas?
Yes. Bring sunscreen (high SPF), do not fall asleep near the pool (lest you wake up to sunburn), and do not walk far in the sun unless you are experienced in dealing with extreme heat. The sun is dangerous in Las Vegas. Sleeping in lawn chairs is a sure way to wake up to severe burns in the morning when that bright yellow thing scorches your skin. Drink plenty of water and liquids - remember that alcohol will dehydrate you.

An addendum to this:
Do not sleep in your car in Las Vegas, even if your car is in a parking structure: it can get very hot in a car, even in the shade of a parking structure. Please do not risk it.

A greater issue you face? If you fall asleep in public, be aware some attendees carry special "permanent" sharpies designed to work in extreme temperatures and be more resistant to chemical removal. They have been known to doodle on people's face when they fall asleep in public, and leave various unflattering messages or pictures in sharpie ink. Some images or text may suggest or imply that you have intimate relationships with non-human entities or objects, or suggest something about your political affiliation or worse.

Please be kind to the goons that wake you up -- they are the "thin red line" between hotel/casino security or LVPD and you. If a DEF CON goon is interacting with you instead of Hotel/Casino security or LVPD, you have a small amount of wiggle room where things can be resolved amicably. Once Hotel/Casino security or LVDP get involved, DEF CON goons can't do much to help.

If you are still worried, try starting a private conversation with HDA and see if they have better advice.
See: https://forum.defcon.org/node/242670 you can also try a DM with Delchi

HTH

**internetking** · March 3, 2023, 18:11

Is defcon still doing sign language interpeters for the confrence? thinking of going in Aug.

**Delchi** · March 11, 2023, 18:10

Originally posted by internetking View Post

Is defcon still doing sign language interpeters for the confrence? thinking of going in Aug.

At the moment it is on a best-effort basis. There are some people known as "deaf-con" who have done things in the past, however when I reached out to them they were nasty, accusative and demeaning to me so we are currently not working with them.

The crux of the problem is that the majority of the staff is volunteer, and people who do sign language interpretation volunteers are hard to find. Honestly I can't blame them as travel, hotel, and so on gets expensive. I am trying to work out a deal for them that we can all agree on. It has to cut both ways - the expectation of having a sign language interpreter at every event, every village, and every contest is not possible at this time. We have made efforts to have both captioning and signing in the main rooms where possible. Also with volunteers come vetting, which I am prepared to do , but takes time and scheduling.

So all in all I am making an effort to get as much as we can , and I will keep you updated. Any ideas or suggestions are welcome!

**internetking** · March 11, 2023, 18:56

Allright, I understand, captioning is great as an alternative then, as well zoom.

**internetking** · April 3, 2023, 23:00

speaking of vetting... see my pm on this forum.

**Nulpoints** · April 14, 2023, 15:34

Hey there internetking. I'm an ASL interpreter and was the lead interpreter/coordinator for Deaf-Con when it was active. It was a group Deaf members of the community that preferred and /or required their access to DEF CON to be in ASL. I also happen to be the person that was just accused of being "nasty, accusative and demeaning" 😁 All I can say is that there are two sides to every story, and if you have ever struggled to get ASL access to an event, you already know the other side.

As you can probably guess, finding ASL interpreters qualified to interpret the content found at DEF CON is no easy task. And unsurprisingly we had a hard time communicating that struggle to the greater conference. Deaf-Con was amazing and fun while it lasted, it was really unfortunate how things ended. Feel free to PM me, and I can put you in touch with some of the former Deaf attendees.

**Delchi** · April 16, 2023, 19:20

Originally posted by Nulpoints View Post

Hey there internetking. I'm an ASL interpreter and was the lead interpreter/coordinator for Deaf-Con when it was active. It was a group Deaf members of the community that preferred and /or required their access to DEF CON to be in ASL. I also happen to be the person that was just accused of being "nasty, accusative and demeaning" 😁 All I can say is that there are two sides to every story, and if you have ever struggled to get ASL access to an event, you already know the other side.

As you can probably guess, finding ASL interpreters qualified to interpret the content found at DEF CON is no easy task. And unsurprisingly we had a hard time communicating that struggle to the greater conference. Deaf-Con was amazing and fun while it lasted, it was really unfortunate how things ended. Feel free to PM me, and I can put you in touch with some of the former Deaf attendees.

I offered to be a bridge and make things better, and I was threatened with lawsuits, dismissed and refused ,called a 'lackey', and summarily dismissed. I didn't get much of a chance to learn about the past, the problems or to help make a future before I was told to (%*$(%$) off. Who knows what the future will bring :)

**Nulpoints** · April 26, 2023, 10:04

I can assure you no one from the Deaf-Con organization threatened any lawsuits. The closest we came was the inform you that DEF CON's obligation to provide access to its Deaf attendees was irrespective of Deaf-Con's official status at DEF CON. If you found yourself in our public slack interacting with members of the community, Deaf-Con can't be responsible for what they said to you.

As for you offering yourself as a bridge. The idea of "Deaf-Con" has been around since at least 2013, and I first interpreted at DEF CON in 2014. When coordinating we were given points of contact as high up the chain of command as you could go.

By the time you reached out, DEF CON officials had already severed ties with Deaf-Con. (In DT's defense, he did try to repair the relationship but the damage was already and the community of Deaf hackers that had been attending regularly decided they would prefer not to attend)

I'm not sure where you would have been a bridge to since we were already in direct contact with those that made the decisions, and after many years of trying to make our position clear, ultimately we couldn't come to an agreement. Sorry if you were expecting us to sit down and catch you up on our history, but after years of advocacy for ASL access, to have you come around and make suggestions like finding volunteer interpreters made it clear to us just how far we had fallen.

**Delchi** · April 27, 2023, 02:02

Originally posted by Nulpoints View Post

I can assure you no one from the Deaf-Con organization threatened any lawsuits. The closest we came was the inform you that DEF CON's obligation to provide access to its Deaf attendees was irrespective of Deaf-Con's official status at DEF CON. If you found yourself in our public slack interacting with members of the community, Deaf-Con can't be responsible for what they said to you.

As for you offering yourself as a bridge. The idea of "Deaf-Con" has been around since at least 2013, and I first interpreted at DEF CON in 2014. When coordinating we were given points of contact as high up the chain of command as you could go.

By the time you reached out, DEF CON officials had already severed ties with Deaf-Con. (In DT's defense, he did try to repair the relationship but the damage was already and the community of Deaf hackers that had been attending regularly decided they would prefer not to attend)

I'm not sure where you would have been a bridge to since we were already in direct contact with those that made the decisions, and after many years of trying to make our position clear, ultimately we couldn't come to an agreement. Sorry if you were expecting us to sit down and catch you up on our history, but after years of advocacy for ASL access, to have you come around and make suggestions like finding volunteer interpreters made it clear to us just how far we had fallen.

It wasn't a suggestion , I asked if you had reached out to people potentially willing to volunteer. So far two people have reached out to me about it and I'm trying to make it happen.

What I expected was that you were serious and interested enough to try again to make things work. Part of that was listening to you and hearing out the story of the history of your efforts. What I got back was personal insults, various threats of lawsuits and generally not taking anything seriously, reducing any effort I made to instant rejection with no interest to try. After a few tries I accepted this and moved on to new avenues to try to fix the problem at hand. Thankfully technology has advanced and we have more options than we did back then, and new people stepping up to work with me to improve what we have and what will be. Considering what I know of the history you had, and the history I experienced and was told about I can understand fully the how and why of the way things went.

The important part is the future. With three years of HDA I am moving things forward , improving what can be done in the spirit of community and respect. Part of that is respecting your decision to not want to be involved. Such is the way of things.

**Nulpoints** · April 27, 2023, 10:03

Originally posted by Delchi View Post

It wasn't a suggestion , I asked if you had reached out to people potentially willing to volunteer. So far two people have reached out to me about it and I'm trying to make it happen.

You have to understand how this suggestion felt. To assume we hadn't even looked for volunteers? The problem with volunteers in this field is if the quality of their interpretation is unintelligible to the attendee, they do more harm than good. (Example: One year we had someone wanting to volunteer who had only ever interpreted in church, and only for 2 years. They had picked up an old book on computer signs from the '80s and thought they would give it a try. And keep in mind, they were still only willing to come if flight and hotel was covered)

It is awesome that you have found two volunteers. From my coordinating experience here are some things for you to consider:

Are they going to volunteer their travel and hotel room?
How many hours are they willing to dedicate to interpreting the conference?
Will you offer access to the variety of networking events throughout the con, and/or provide interpreters to follow attendees when walking the con if requested? (A reminder that for many attendees, the official talks are secondary to the experience of the con)

And here is the important stuff:

Are the volunteer interpreters nationally certified?
Are the interpreters qualified to interpret the content at DEF CON? (Could the interpret a Hacker Jeopardy audition for a Deaf team?)
What experience have interpreters had interpreting for large conferences?

I wish you the best of luck, honestly. Because I do know how hard this is going to be for you.

And just a reminder, hearing people raving about how cool having interpreters are means nothing if the Deaf attendees can't understand them.

**Delchi** · April 28, 2023, 06:22

Originally posted by Nulpoints View Post

You have to understand how this suggestion felt. To assume we hadn't even looked for volunteers? The problem with volunteers in this field is if the quality of their interpretation is unintelligible to the attendee, they do more harm than good. (Example: One year we had someone wanting to volunteer who had only ever interpreted in church, and only for 2 years. They had picked up an old book on computer signs from the '80s and thought they would give it a try. And keep in mind, they were still only willing to come if flight and hotel was covered)

It is awesome that you have found two volunteers. From my coordinating experience here are some things for you to consider:

Are they going to volunteer their travel and hotel room?
How many hours are they willing to dedicate to interpreting the conference?
Will you offer access to the variety of networking events throughout the con, and/or provide interpreters to follow attendees when walking the con if requested? (A reminder that for many attendees, the official talks are secondary to the experience of the con)

And here is the important stuff:

Are the volunteer interpreters nationally certified?
Are the interpreters qualified to interpret the content at DEF CON? (Could the interpret a Hacker Jeopardy audition for a Deaf team?)
What experience have interpreters had interpreting for large conferences?

I wish you the best of luck, honestly. Because I do know how hard this is going to be for you.

And just a reminder, hearing people raving about how cool having interpreters are means nothing if the Deaf attendees can't understand them.

A few small points before I wrap this up :

I did not assume you had not asked for volunteers. I did not know this history, so I asked what had been tired, and gave volunteers as an example. I was looking to catch up with what efforts you had already tried. I was asking about the history - what tried and failed, or what tried and worked. That you keep taking it as an insult I can't answer to. If you don't know the history, and you ask about it - it's in the spirit of trying to learn , not to insult. My goal is to make things better, not worse.

I did some checking and I found that providing a walk around interpreter for each attendee is not considered reasonable accommodation. What I did do is I did manage to arrange for people who bring their own interpreter / personal assistant to have special consideration at registration.

As far as the rest , volunteers are just that. When I first started volunteering back in Defcon 6 or so I could not have answered most of the questions in Hacker Jeopardy but that did not stop me from providing what I could with what skills I had. This allowed me to develop skills needed over the years. As a community we should embrace all volunteers and if they are just learning their skills, sharpening them, or are experts they should be welcome, but have at least a cursory training. For example volunteers for HDA need to complete at least 1 year of Gooning with infobooth. They do not need to be a CNA or LPN to point someone in a wheelchair to an elevator, but they do need to know where the elevators are.

HDA provides assistance on a best effort basis with the resources available. While we are not perfect, we show improvement every year.

**Nulpoints** · April 28, 2023, 10:22

Originally posted by Delchi View Post

I did some checking and I found that providing a walk around interpreter for each attendee is not considered reasonable accommodation. What I did do is I did manage to arrange for people who bring their own interpreter / personal assistant to have special consideration at registration.

Access to the conference in ASL (if that is your preferred accommodation) is a reasonable accommodation. This would include all official spaces, villages, talks, after hours events. The 'following around the conference' is more economic than having interpreters placed throughout the conference (which is how large expensive conferences handle access).

Asking Deaf people to bring and pay for their own interpreter is like asking people who use a wheelchairs to build their own ramps and elevators. This will price out your average attendee and only allow for Deaf attendees that work for companies that cover the cost of their interpreters.

Originally posted by Delchi View Post

As a community we should embrace all volunteers and if they are just learning their skills, sharpening them, or are experts they should be welcome, but have at least a cursory training

And this, this is the part that those outside the community just don't get. Volunteers for gooning, infoboothing, etc can learn on the job. Of course you wouldn't expect all your volunteers to get up there to play Hacker Jeopardy, that is not at all what I'm saying. But having an interpreter 'learn on the job' is a disservice to the Deaf attendee.

Going back to my wheelchair analogy, would you attend a conference with ramps and elevators being built by people learning on the job, or would you just skip that conference because they aren't taking your access seriously?

**Delchi** · April 29, 2023, 02:41

Originally posted by Nulpoints View Post

Access to the conference in ASL (if that is your preferred accommodation) is a reasonable accommodation. This would include all official spaces, villages, talks, after hours events. The 'following around the conference' is more economic than having interpreters placed throughout the conference (which is how large expensive conferences handle access).

Asking Deaf people to bring and pay for their own interpreter is like asking people who use a wheelchairs to build their own ramps and elevators. This will price out your average attendee and only allow for Deaf attendees that work for companies that cover the cost of their interpreters.

And this, this is the part that those outside the community just don't get. Volunteers for gooning, infoboothing, etc can learn on the job. Of course you wouldn't expect all your volunteers to get up there to play Hacker Jeopardy, that is not at all what I'm saying. But having an interpreter 'learn on the job' is a disservice to the Deaf attendee.

Going back to my wheelchair analogy, would you attend a conference with ramps and elevators being built by people learning on the job, or would you just skip that conference because they aren't taking your access seriously?

Apples and oranges in almost all respects.

First off, while you are correct in that I am not a member of the deaf community, I am physically disabled and have been for over five years and as such I am very well aware of the hardships and challenges presented in not just attending a convention but in everyday life. This is why I decided to create HDA for defcon.

The venue is responsible for the ramps and elevators , not the people renting the venue. If you book a room in a hotel you expect the hotel to accomodate your needs, not expect you to build ramps, elevators , and so on. This was put to the test last year and the venue responded excellently.

No one is asking people to bring and pay for their own interpreter , what I said was that IF a person desired to do so they receive special consideration and accomodation. Once again you take something we have done that is a benefit and twisted it into a negative with a side order of logical fallacy.

The idea that having personal , follow you around the conference interpreters is economic is not correct from both a financial and resource use point of view. That said we do have some attendees who do take this option and that is why I rent to bat for them to get them special consideration.

As far as learning on the job, what better place for an interpreter to learn the language of the hacking community? They don't teach 'hackerspeak 101' in any ASL course I have yet found ( Though there are some videos on youtube ).

I may not have yet been exposed to the community you speak of, but the community of disabled people attending defcon have spoken to me and have made suggestions, offered critique and shared their experiences , needs and wants clearly and in a respectable manner for the last three years. In return HDA has done the best it can with the cooperation of the venue and with the available resources.

At the end of the day you and the people you represent have decided not to attend, not to contribute and not to assist in the efforts to improve things. This is your choice. Myself and HDA have and continue to try to improve the situation and to work with people to find solutions. Anyone can throw rocks, it takes a mason to use rocks to build a bridge.

With that, I'm off this thread to get back to work. We are about 100 days out from defcon and there is a lot to be done.

**internetking** · 2023-05-26T17:20:45

hey all

does defcon have policy if someone fell asleep during confrence get kicked for the night? or no? if yes i need exception since i tend to fall aleep for no reason this reare but if happens so know why

**number6** · 2023-05-26T19:20:30

Originally posted by internetking View Post

hey all

does defcon have policy if someone fell asleep during confrence get kicked for the night? or no? if yes i need exception since i tend to fall aleep for no reason this reare but if happens so know why

I don't know about any policy to kick someone out of DEF CON or the property for *just* accidentally falling asleep while sitting in a chair in a speaker track.

HOWEVER, if you fail to wake up when asked to wake up, or wake up, but not enough to demonstrate you are coherent enough to answer some questions, or maybe perform basic actions to test for some possible medical issues, then there may be consequences in the form of a medical alert, or calling an ambulance, or involving Hotel/Casino security on a possible medical issue that needs attention.

If you do wake up enough to demonstrate you are coherent, and demonstrate an understanding of question with answers, then the goon or hotel/casino security may ask you to go to your hotel room to sleep.

This is how accidentally falling asleep while sitting in a chair listening to a speaker present their talk may not be a problem by itself, but when combined with other things can lead to consequences.

When asked to leave a space, and you refuse, that is a risk for breaking rules of trespassing. A Hotel/Casino security member could escalate failure to abide by request to leave to being a trespassing issue, and maybe ban you from their property, or worse. DEF CON goons can't do much if you are arrested, or if the hotel/casino bans you from their property. Even if DEF CON goons can do anything with hotel/casino to deal with a case when someone is banned from their property, it can often take years.

If you fall asleep in a speaker track and start making noise like snoring, and that interferes with other people's enjoyment of DEF CON, you may also be asked to leave the speaker track.

Falling asleep in an elevator, on stairs, on an escalator, in a doorway, in a hallway where people walk, all could raise issues with violations of the fire code. That is more serious, and are almost all guaranteed to result in being asked to go to your room to sleep. Putting other people's lives at risk in case of fire is a problem for everyone.

From the DEF CON FAQ, you have this:
DEF_CON_FAQ_URL=https://defcon.org/html/links/dc-faq/dc-faq.html

Originally posted by DEF_CON_FAQ_URL

Is it hot in Vegas?
Yes. Bring sunscreen (high SPF), do not fall asleep near the pool (lest you wake up to sunburn), and do not walk far in the sun unless you are experienced in dealing with extreme heat. The sun is dangerous in Las Vegas. Sleeping in lawn chairs is a sure way to wake up to severe burns in the morning when that bright yellow thing scorches your skin. Drink plenty of water and liquids - remember that alcohol will dehydrate you.

An addendum to this:
Do not sleep in your car in Las Vegas, even if your car is in a parking structure: it can get very hot in a car, even in the shade of a parking structure. Please do not risk it.

A greater issue you face? If you fall asleep in public, be aware some attendees carry special "permanent" sharpies designed to work in extreme temperatures and be more resistant to chemical removal. They have been known to doodle on people's face when they fall asleep in public, and leave various unflattering messages or pictures in sharpie ink. Some images or text may suggest or imply that you have intimate relationships with non-human entities or objects, or suggest something about your political affiliation or worse.

Please be kind to the goons that wake you up -- they are the "thin red line" between hotel/casino security or LVPD and you. If a DEF CON goon is interacting with you instead of Hotel/Casino security or LVPD, you have a small amount of wiggle room where things can be resolved amicably. Once Hotel/Casino security or LVDP get involved, DEF CON goons can't do much to help.

If you are still worried, try starting a private conversation with HDA and see if they have better advice.
See: https://forum.defcon.org/node/242670 you can also try a DM with Delchi

HTH

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