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  • #61
    Maybe I am in the minority but if a female knows her stuff, her gender makes no difference. Technically speaking, I meet more men who know their way around computers. My question is, when 12-24 year old makes are tinkering with computers, what are the majority of females doing with their time? Something is more attractive to the females than computers.

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    • #62
      Originally posted by astcell
      Maybe I am in the minority but if a female knows her stuff, her gender makes no difference. Technically speaking, I meet more men who know their way around computers. My question is, when 12-24 year old makes are tinkering with computers, what are the majority of females doing with their time? Something is more attractive to the females than computers.
      Study on this topic shows that by the 6th grade females are commonly so exposed to stereotypes that direct paths for each gender become apparent. It has been stated that this form of conditioning starts as early as infant development and continues effecting the perceptions of females as well as males. Common examples would be color choices associated with girls/boys, toy selection, input from play friends, exposure to oppressive views, society roles, etc...

      Although it is important to expose females to several differing career choices, it becomes ingrained that "traditionally" females should persue careers such as nursing, office technology, teaching, or differing types of "nurturing careers". Often girls will express that they feel "technology" is a tool used to help with other career choices. Computers can be used for chatting, word processing, etc.. Girls also feel that it is a waste of time to persue these careers because they do not have a meaningful purpose, or within the mind of the girl science, technology, engineering and math, (STEM) careers just do not offer a "give back" factor.

      It's not really WHAT they are doing with their time, it is WHY they choose that over technology.

      They often state that technology jobs are boring, and "social" sucide. At a time most critical in their emotinal developmental stages, when their self esteem is the lowest, and they desire peer acceptance above most all things, computers and technology careers are still nerdy, for boys, social-life destroyers.

      In addition, acceptance, reassurance, and a firm foundation of support have been proven to help retain females who enter into non-traditional careers.

      How to correct his? Start with a full-fledged effort to expose females 14-25 with the in's and out's of these advanced programs, design a means to help correct the misconceptions absorbed by past experiences, make opportunites for STEM exploration at an early age, realize that you can't convert them all, when addressing girls of the 19-24 group pose questions so that they may discover misconceptions on thier own.

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      • #63
        I think it goes back to genes. By instinct, girls get a doll and want to baby and nurture it. Boys want to rip its head off and see what's inside.

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        • #64
          Originally posted by astcell
          I think it goes back to genes. By instinct, girls get a doll and want to baby and nurture it. Boys want to rip its head off and see what's inside.
          Not really....I played with Barbies a short while. I normally wanted to make them deep sea explorers. I can remember swimming to the bottom of our pools "deep end" and jamming their little rubber legs into the pool drain.

          Actually, I don't remember a fave toy. I DO remember taking an alarm clock apart, an old floor model tv, helping my dad lay brick, building bridges across the creek to catch crawdads, injecting polk weed with sulfuric acid, building a treehouse by myself, and playing in the mountains.

          Yep, I shoulda been a boy....

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          • #65
            Originally posted by pezz
            Not really....I played with Barbies a short while. I normally wanted to make them deep sea explorers. I can remember swimming to the bottom of our pools "deep end" and jamming their little rubber legs into the pool drain.

            Actually, I don't remember a fave toy. I DO remember taking an alarm clock apart, an old floor model tv, helping my dad lay brick, building bridges across the creek to catch crawdads, injecting polk weed with sulfuric acid, building a treehouse by myself, and playing in the mountains.

            Yep, I shoulda been a boy....

            But ALL of this is MOOT unless it starts one place, and that's at home.

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            • #66
              It's scary to step outside of our box!

              I definately think it depends on the person and where their comforts are and what they've been exposed to throughout their life. ASTCELL's theory is somewhat right because we are girls and we're expected to be the nurturer and that is what we are exposed to and taught all of our lives. I wasn't as lucky as Pezz to do all of those non-girl things while growing up!

              I enjoy learning new business applications and the back-end databases, etc. and how to apply those apps. to a business problem. Knowing the hard core coding and the inner workings of the hardware - that's another story, that is Waaay oustide of my box and I think that is why I often find myself putting it on the back burner so often. I think it's only natural for people to be hesitant to go outside of their box.

              I will admit - I want someone to hold my hand while I open up my cpu case and figure out what everything is. But I suppose a lot of the guys here would feel the same way if we handed them a baby with a poopy diaper - they need hand holding the first time they change that diaper.

              I'm not saying to hold someone's hand every step of the way but sometimes you feel like your wheels are spinning when trying to step outside of your box. A little direction can go a long way. The best way is to do some background reading and then get some hands-on with someone who knows their stuff.

              I hung my first dry wall a couple of years ago at a Habitat for Humanities event. I would have never thought to hang dry wall on my own. Now that I have done it though and had other people who were more experienced show me how it was done, I thought it was great fun! I could actually do it again if I had to and probably on my own this time. I still prefer writing a check to a contractor though because that's what I know and do best! :p

              So there you have it! I still have yet to open my cpu case and check it out!! If anyone would like to volunteer to hold my hand that would be great!

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              • #67
                Blossom shows why Defcon is the best event around. Excluding the jerks who show up anywhere on thre planet, Defcon is full of people who know their stuff, are willing to share, and are still willing to learn.

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                • #68
                  Blossom: And so the proposal for the inclusion of G3. I can empathize with other females who feel uncomfortable within a male dominated arena.

                  As persons, uncomfortable social situations can be stressful and distracting to say the least. These type of situations can generate frustrations and take away from the learning process.

                  "No one can make you feel inferior without your consent"-Eleanor Roosevelt

                  With that stated, it is easier to "ask someone to hold your hand" if you can identify somewhat with that person, and glean perceptions that they may provide an atmosphere free of rejection or condescendence.

                  Additional note: please never hand me a baby.... those ‘lil suckers give me the willys.

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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by astcell
                    r0cketgrl is the prize????

                    Let me elaborate. Pezz was talking about prizes. I was suggesting a T-shirt as a prize, bearing the quip:

                    "I went to G3 and all I got was this lousy T-shirt"


                    This should clear up any confusion.

                    r0cketgrl

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                    • #70
                      Originally posted by r0cketgrl
                      Let me elaborate. Pezz was talking about prizes. I was suggesting a T-shirt as a prize, bearing the quip:

                      "I went to G3 and all I got was this lousy T-shirt"


                      This should clear up any confusion.

                      r0cketgrl
                      That's how I read it, too... I'm not quite sure how it got misconstrued. *shrug*

                      Anyway, I've been quietly following this thread for a while, and notice one key point that hasn't been brought up: how are you (as a group) intending to counteract the effect of, basically, scenewhores?

                      I am entirely in favour of what you're doing here - please don't misunderstand my intentions on raising the issue. But it seems as though there's a very visible minority of women with no technical ability or interest who basically just want to screw their way around the scene, or hope to land a 'hacker boyfriend' so that they don't have to work themselves.

                      Granted, the men who encourage this aren't helping any. But by the same token, when 'groups' (a term I use very loosely in this context) like the haxxxor chicks are roaming around half-naked, or we've got the sandwich-board lesbian doing her thing, it can't help your guys' (no pun intended) credibility.

                      And to be honest, it does have a wider effect: it keeps the capable women away because they don't want to be associated with it, as well as making the capable women in the scene look bad by association. And on a totally other level: it prevents a lot of us guys from dating in the scene because we don't want to be anywhere near people who act like that. It's a major catch-22, and makes it bloody difficult to meet women with a technical interest.

                      Just something I've wanted bring up for a very, very long time.
                      Last edited by skroo; March 13, 2004, 10:11.

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                      • #71
                        /me not wanting to dominate the discussion sets back and allows the opportunity for others to address this before expressing her thoughts.

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                        • #72
                          Originally posted by skroo
                          That's how I read it, too... I'm not quite sure how it got misconstrued. *shrug*

                          Anyway, I've been quietly following this thread for a while, and notice one key point that hasn't been brought up: how are you (as a group) intending to counteract the effect of, basically, scenewhores?
                          Thought-provoking ruminations on your part, Skroo. The following is just my viewpoint:

                          First, I don’t think the intent was to counteract the effect of the scene whores. I think this idea came up through a desire for interested female geeks to spend time with one another discussing issues that are pertinent to us: equity in the workplace, dealing with aberrant attitudes toward women in technology jobs, why more women do not participate in technology fields, etc. If something like that can or does contribute to counter-acting the effect of the scene whores, fantastic! But again, I don’t think that was the intent.


                          I am entirely in favour of what you're doing here - please don't misunderstand my intentions on raising the issue. But it seems as though there's a very visible minority of women with no technical ability or interest who basically just want to screw their way around the scene, or hope to land a 'hacker boyfriend' so that they don't have to work themselves.

                          Granted, the men who encourage this aren't helping any. But by the same token, when 'groups' (a term I use very loosely in this context) like the haxxxor chicks are roaming around half-naked, or we've got the sandwich-board lesbian doing her thing, it can't help your guys' (no pun intended) credibility.
                          I don’t misunderstand your intentions. I appreciate your thoughts about this. While the scene whores may pose a threat to the credibility of those of us who are capable and interested in computers/infosec/technology, etc., I am realistic enough to know that I cannot single-handedly change the perceptions of others. Nor, in some cases, do I care to. What I can do is increase my knowledge of and passion for things tech-related, seek out others who are like-minded and not worry about what some twit in fishnet stockings and a handkerchief is doing to my “reputation;” or what some ill-advised, testosterone driven bozo thinks of me. Those types of folks mean less than nothing to me. If a person spends the energy to talk with me, they will discover I am the real deal. However, if a person wishes to make assumptions about me based upon how I look, or what is my gender, then it truly is their loss.


                          And to be honest, it does have a wider effect: it keeps the capable women away because they don't want to be associated with it, as well as making the capable women in the scene look bad by association. And on a totally other level: it prevents a lot of us guys from dating in the scene because we don't want to be anywhere near people who act like that. It's a major catch-22, and makes it bloody difficult to meet women with a technical interest.
                          Your point regarding scene whores actually goes both ways, though female scene whores looking for boyfriends are much more prevalent than male scene whores looking for girlfriends, but it does happen. It’s happened to me. Now, 20 minutes of relevant conversation pretty much reveals to me if I am dealing with someone who is like-minded, a vulture (my personal nomenclature for scene whores and posers), or something in between. And dating in any environment is difficult enough. In a microcosm like this scene, it does, unfortunately seem to be a catch-22. And guess what? We female geeks deal with the same conundrum.

                          I respectfully disagree with your statement that scene whores necessarily keep away the capable women. I met some totally fascinating, wickedly smart women and men at last year’s DC. But one does have to develop a relatively thick skin to deal with some of the bullshit and some capable women don't choose to do that. I, however, think it well worth it. I knew when I chose to be in the technology field it was male-dominated. I knew that I would have to work harder and smarter than many of my male counterparts. I knew I would be dissed, overlooked, and given scut work to do to drive me out. I am proud to say I am still doing tech work. Meaningful, interesting tech work. And while it may not be fair, and it may not be equitable, and maybe I shouldn’t have to pay for it, the crap is the price I pay to do what I love.

                          Just something I've wanted bring up for a very, very long time.
                          I am glad you brought this up. It needs to be discussed.

                          r0cketgrl (who has been much long-winded and will now return to lurk mode)

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                          • #73
                            organized thoughts

                            Make it into a paper.
                            1. How to handle male bosses
                            2. How to handle male coworkers
                            3. How to handle stress caused by harassment
                            4. How to stay technically current without going broke
                            5. How to handle burnout
                            6. etc

                            Once the paper is developed, you can take it to other cons.

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by r0cketgrl
                              Thought-provoking ruminations on your part, Skroo.
                              Cheers :)

                              First, I don’t think the intent was to counteract the effect of the scene whores.
                              Agreed. And I wasn't very clear in my approach on this: what I was trying to do was raise the issue of their existence being confused with what your group intends to accomplish.

                              If something like that can or does contribute to counter-acting the effect of the scene whores, fantastic! But again, I don’t think that was the intent.
                              It probably stands a very good chance of doing so - hence one of the reasons why I brought it up.

                              I am realistic enough to know that I cannot single-handedly change the perceptions of others. Nor, in some cases, do I care to.
                              Sure, understood. And (just to clarify): that wasn't my intent here; sorry if it seemed implied.

                              Those types of folks mean less than nothing to me. If a person spends the energy to talk with me, they will discover I am the real deal. However, if a person wishes to make assumptions about me based upon how I look, or what is my gender, then it truly is their loss.
                              I'm with you on that; the problem I was referring to, though, was the wider perceptual one - it's something I see as related to the issues you're speaking about addressing, but more localised to the community at Defcon.

                              Your point regarding scene whores actually goes both ways, though female scene whores looking for boyfriends are much more prevalent than male scene whores looking for girlfriends, but it does happen.
                              Agreed. It'd be foolish to say that it's only the women who act this way.

                              I respectfully disagree with your statement that scene whores necessarily keep away the capable women.
                              Fair enough. For what it's worth, I'm basing this on a small number of female engineers that I know (four, to be precise) who all had one common reason for not going to Defcon: 'every year on the news coverage, we see some idiot female wearing next to nothing parading around for a crowd of drooling guys'.

                              Granted, there were other reasons - but this was the common one. And admittedly, I am working from a small sample so make no claims as to those views being representative of most women. It does seem to be an issue, though.

                              But one does have to develop a relatively thick skin to deal with some of the bullshit and some capable women don't choose to do that.
                              That's actually a really good point, and one I hadn't thought of before - I think I was looking at things too clinically. It skews my views of my sample group's data quite a bit.

                              And while it may not be fair, and it may not be equitable, and maybe I shouldn’t have to pay for it, the crap is the price I pay to do what I love.
                              Which is more than reasonable. It's an effort most people wouldn't put into things even if they were easy for them.

                              I am glad you brought this up. It needs to be discussed.
                              Thanks, and I appreciate the reply. This is something that has really been making me wonder for some time now.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by deltalima
                                Once the paper is developed, you can take it to other cons.
                                Blasphemy !! There are no other cons before Defcon....

                                Scene Whores: Simple....We know they are there, and we commonly know who they are...although sometimes you cannot tell. Normally I would just deal with it, forget it. BUT, after reading the story done on scene whores last year, I have changed my mind.

                                Since it is apparent that they are there, and grossly mis-representing females, I'd say make your presence know. March right on up to them, kill them with kindness, conversation, and invite them to the G3 meet. Comparable perhaps to a Jehovas Witness. Tell them about the support and educational foundation we hope to build with G3. One of 2 things may happen if we all start doing this: 1. Possible converts. and 2. They get so sick of hearing it, the back off.



                                Heh... I can see the G3 meeting now.... <Haxxor Chixx stand up> Hello, My name is Haxxor Chix and i'm a scene whore...

                                SKROO: I guess if you are scoping a date for the B&W, it would be OK to hang outside the room and accost them as they left the meeting...
                                Last edited by pezz; March 14, 2004, 11:59.

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