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  • Dented-Halo
    replied
    Travel outside the US and you'd be amazed what the world is like.

    Most of europe is like that regarding alcohol (age and the ability to drink it outside etc).

    Japan is similar to thailand. I can buy a 1L can of Asahi beer outta a vending machine at 3pm on a Tuesday afternoon and go through a stroll of Shinjuku satisfying my thirst and it is a NON EVENT. No one is going to throw a harry fit.

    Leave a comment:


  • phobal
    replied
    Tangent?

    Ha, we're talking about liquor consumption, yet this thread is about trying to give a Mormon kid pitches to his parents so he can go to Vegas. dev/null, here we come!
    Last edited by phobal; April 29, 2004, 00:29.

    Leave a comment:


  • astcell
    replied
    I went to Thailand in 1996. A friend and I went to their equivalent of a 7-11 at 3:30am, bought a beer, gave the salesgirl a sip of it. then walked right down the center of the boulevard drinking his beer. He laughed out loud, lifted his beer to a traffic cop, toasting him, and the cop tipped his hat back. Then my friend smiled and said, "And they call AMERICA a free country!"

    I have to agree.

    Leave a comment:


  • phobal
    replied
    The USA is really a ridiculous country. I remember going around some resort in Hawaii with an open bottle of beer and the panic that just caused everyone. Because, you know, I could have died and then my family can sue everyone for not stopping me.

    I can't wait to attend UNLV.

    Leave a comment:


  • astcell
    replied
    I run Cooncon 3-4 times a year and you have to be 18 to attend, 21 to drink. I know a guy who is 17 and is VERY mature, but the laws will not fare well with me if he is injured. Nothing personal.

    Just be glad the age of majority is 21, not 40. :>

    Leave a comment:


  • ndex
    replied
    ok, so I'm a bit sensi

    Ok, I'll admit, I'm a bit sensitive about this issue because I've had a friend spend time in jail for having a completely consentual relationship with a 17 year old girl. They didn't cross state lines, she was going to school, had a job and a car, it was all good. Then someone called the cops because they thought they knew better or maybe just because they were pissed that they weren't getting any.

    I want to reiterate that I agree with Astcell, the issue is not maturity; the age of majority really is a random number. The point is, we don't make the laws but we're subject to them.

    Further, there are *numerous* examples (Mary Kay LaToureau anyone) and one that occurred within the last 2 years, of an adult woman bringing an underage male with her to Vegas. This did *not* occur at Defcon. They spent several days alone in a hotel room while his parents had no idea where he was or who he was with. She was a teacher of his, she went to jail (this was NOT ME I know what some of you dirty minded people are thinking!!! :P).

    Details notwithstanding, I can easily see reasonable adult woman finding herself in a situation, in the heat of the moment, and not asking for proof of legal age. I don't think the law cares if the minor is male or female any more is what I'm getting at and there are plenty of non-heterosexual attendees who would also throw out any gender biased argument. So, it's not about maturity, it's about that jail thing and those upset parents.

    I'd be all about don't ask don't tell if there was no risk of some drunk kid falling in the pool and drowning at 3am.
    </ babbling>

    ndex
    *considering exploring careers in teaching*

    Leave a comment:


  • astcell
    replied
    I have met 16 year old who are more mature than 36 year olds. The age limit is an arbitrary number set by our society based on certain assumptions. If you don't like it and it is that big a deal then you can move to a country where the legal ages suit you better, or when you are old enough to run for office then do so and change the laws.

    Leave a comment:


  • phobal
    replied
    2nd post....shit, my bad.

    Leave a comment:


  • phobal
    replied
    Originally posted by ndex
    While it my post was slightly less off topic than religion, linking transporting a minor and being responsible for a minor during the con may have been too much for you to compute.

    If you would proctologically extract your cranium and reread my post you will see that I said nothing about "maturity" and focused almost entirely on legal liability issues. The cost of insurance for DefCon is tremendous. The price of admission helps to defray the cost of insurance somewhat. Legal liability issues that effect con organizers (esp. DT), the AP and con security staff when dealing with minors travelling interstate without parental consent are complex and I wouldn't have posted if someone hadn't suggested that the Goons would look out for unattended minors. Goons should look out for unattended minors, so those minors can be escorted off the premises.

    Example: if you let a minor who has crossed state lines without parental consent stay in your hotel room, you may inadvertently become legally responsible for their welfare and/or any damages that they may commit or receive. Further, if they become intoxicated while in your room (floor surfing, passer-by walking in to party and say hey) pass out and stop breathing, the legal ramifications are considerable. You must seek aid which you are then not legally permitted to authorize, if you don't seek aid and/or you were the provider of the intoxicants you can go to jail.

    An 18 year old can travel from state to state as they please. A 17 year old cannot unless they are emancipated and/or have parental consent and I'm sketchy on the emancipation part. Since the 17 year old cannot legally own a vehicle without an adult co-signer, that adult co-signer would have to give permission for the vehicle to be taken across state lines. Most insurance companies will NOT cover said minor. In addition, should said minor, driving alone, get themselves to Vegas and get in an accident - even if it's not their fault, they wouldn't then be covered much less anyone else involved in the accident.

    Unattended minors at Defcon poses more risk to others, especially legal liability for organizers and other attendees, than they face themselves. However, the risks the unattended minor faces are amplified by the fact that without someone to be legally responsible for them, they cannot get a place of their own to sleep, emergency medical care and may not be covered by their auto or health insurance.

    It's not about maturity, it's about legal liability and financial responsibility. As an 18 year old, you clearly have a lot to learn about personal responsibility. As an adult, I have a lot more to lose and I'm just not willing to go there, sorry.

    ndex
    I hope you realize I over simplified the issue to prove the point that American society lives in a ridiculously great amount of fear. Citing examples such as 'unattended minors at [a computer confrence] poses more risk to others' and 'risks the unattended minor faces are amplified by the fact that without someone to be legally responsible they cannot get a place to sleep' proves my point even deeper.

    The point that I was trying to make is that an individual [what we call a mature minor in Canaduh] few weeks shy of being the age of majoirty would AVOID such issues. They wouldn't do stupid shit that an adult would do because they're less of a liability. A mature minor would plan ahead like I did last year.

    Or maybe I just don't understand the amsuing American legal system because I'm not living in an social world where if I do my job [that being working as door staff at the campus bar] I'll be sued for whatever reason, like ruining someone's night, or brusing someone's knee as I drag him out of the bar.

    And appearantly, because I'm 18, my intelligence-well, mere words for that matter-is just cheap and impounded in contrast to your all knowing prentention and arrogance. Thanks for the lecture on American Tort-law skippy. Appearantly I'm just too stupid, naive, and young, and thus, I know nothing on personal responsiblity.


    You Americans are funny.
    Last edited by phobal; April 26, 2004, 18:22.

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  • astcell
    replied
    ndex, you are referring to the Mann Act of 1910. It basically makes it illegal to transport immature girls across state lines for illegal purposes.

    Here is a clip...:

    "Whoever knowingly transports any individual in interstate or foreign commerce, or in any Territory or Possession of the UnitedStates, with intent that such individual engage in prostitution,or in any sexual activity for which any person can be chargedwith a criminal offense, shall be fined under this title orimprisoned not more than five years, or both"

    ...found here: http://wise.fau.edu/~tunick/courses/conlaw/mann.html

    It is mainly to stop prostitution, but with what goes on in Las Vegas, who wonders any more. Is the law still enforced? Tough to say.

    ------------------------------
    Here is a lighter way of looking at it:

    Down in Florida there was a young man who developed an abnormal fondness for aquatic mammals. He was fairly wealthy and had a rather large swimming pool which he kept filled with seawater. He kept several species of sea life in his pool but was frustrated by the lack of dolphins or porpoises. He knew it would be illegal to keep either in his pool but he longed to fill his pool that way.

    It happened one day, as he was driving along the beach he came across two beached porpoises and they seemed a little ill--rather than push them back in to the sea he got them in the back of his truck, covered them with wet blankets and drove them swiftly back to his home where he put them in the pool.

    The swam around listlessly. What to do? He knew, from his research, that porpoises, when ill, prefer "exotic" food such as baby sea birds.

    He went back on the beach and found a nest of baby terns and took them home. Sure enough the finny friends ate them up and seemed more lively.

    This caused him to go further down the beach to find more young gulls. For three or four days this went on, then he was forced one day to drive further down the beach than ever--he drove for about an hour and it was dark by the time he found enough baby terns to feed his aquatic booty.

    Earlier that day the circus had come to the outskirts of town and begun to set up. By accident the cage to old "Fang" the toothless and very old lion was left open. Fang saw this as a possible opportunity and wandered off. He didn't get far when sleepiness overtook him and he fell asleep, right in the middle of the road.

    Our young man, with the cab of his pickup truck filled with terns, came speeding along the road and inadvertently ran right over poor old Fang.

    The FBI was on the spot and arrested him at once.

    Violation of the Mann Act was the charge:

    "Transporting immature gulls across a sedate lion for illegal porpoises."

    Leave a comment:


  • Contrarian
    replied
    Crap, I just re-read your post and NEXT YEAR you're going to be 18.

    Well, you're fucked then. Wait till next year. ANd if you think a year is too long to wait, then just relish in that fact because in 20 years each passing year will fly by faster and faster and you'll wish they would slow down.
    Last edited by Contrarian; April 26, 2004, 14:15.

    Leave a comment:


  • Contrarian
    replied
    Originally posted by 3lM0
    I will be turning 18 next year and I want to go to defcon this year really bad but my parents wont let me go to Las Vegas because they say "people die there". I am wondering if anyone has any suggestions on how I can convince them to let me go?
    A lot of kids die at college too. I suppose that is reason not go to go college?

    If you're paying for it, and you're 18 tell them it's time to cut the cord and let you make your own choices. Life is full of risks, you as an adult need to learn and know how to handle them - and that only comes through experiencing life.

    Leave a comment:


  • ndex
    replied
    Originally posted by phobal
    Why can't a 17 year old just transport himself? If a 17 year old is so immature someone of the age of majority has to transport themselves, he doesn't deserve to come. I was planning on coming last year when I was 17, and thanks to my research, I would have been able to come if all of my friends didn't cancel out on me in the last minute.
    While it my post was slightly less off topic than religion, linking transporting a minor and being responsible for a minor during the con may have been too much for you to compute.

    If you would proctologically extract your cranium and reread my post you will see that I said nothing about "maturity" and focused almost entirely on legal liability issues. The cost of insurance for DefCon is tremendous. The price of admission helps to defray the cost of insurance somewhat. Legal liability issues that effect con organizers (esp. DT), the AP and con security staff when dealing with minors travelling interstate without parental consent are complex and I wouldn't have posted if someone hadn't suggested that the Goons would look out for unattended minors. Goons should look out for unattended minors, so those minors can be escorted off the premises.

    Example: if you let a minor who has crossed state lines without parental consent stay in your hotel room, you may inadvertently become legally responsible for their welfare and/or any damages that they may commit or receive. Further, if they become intoxicated while in your room (floor surfing, passer-by walking in to party and say hey) pass out and stop breathing, the legal ramifications are considerable. You must seek aid which you are then not legally permitted to authorize, if you don't seek aid and/or you were the provider of the intoxicants you can go to jail.

    An 18 year old can travel from state to state as they please. A 17 year old cannot unless they are emancipated and/or have parental consent and I'm sketchy on the emancipation part. Since the 17 year old cannot legally own a vehicle without an adult co-signer, that adult co-signer would have to give permission for the vehicle to be taken across state lines. Most insurance companies will NOT cover said minor. In addition, should said minor, driving alone, get themselves to Vegas and get in an accident - even if it's not their fault, they wouldn't then be covered much less anyone else involved in the accident.

    Unattended minors at Defcon poses more risk to others, especially legal liability for organizers and other attendees, than they face themselves. However, the risks the unattended minor faces are amplified by the fact that without someone to be legally responsible for them, they cannot get a place of their own to sleep, emergency medical care and may not be covered by their auto or health insurance.

    It's not about maturity, it's about legal liability and financial responsibility. As an 18 year old, you clearly have a lot to learn about personal responsibility. As an adult, I have a lot more to lose and I'm just not willing to go there, sorry.

    ndex

    Leave a comment:


  • phobal
    replied
    Well, being Mormon may be a bit of an issue, being that Vegas is the harlot capital of the Western World. If DC was in, say, Mesa Arizona, do you think they would raise such concern?

    Leave a comment:


  • Siviak
    replied
    Originally posted by {x}taSy
    Most deaths in Vegas are from natural causes.

    whew... for a second there I thought you were going to say something like "most deaths in Vegas come from mormans" ...heh.... as for the parent problem...let it go and learn to live with it.. because the second that you think you are free and you move out and you start to live life you parents will move in with you... and that is even worse... trust me on this one


    Originally posted by ndex
    I've been approached several times over the years, by people under 18, who wanted me to take them to Vegas...
    much less the number of people under the age of 18 who have approached you (or vise versa) to take them home.... :D


    ***edit*** you know I did make this post before reading the rest of this thread, and for that I am sorry, but I will have to say that Mormans (LDS, Latter Day Saints et al) are no more a part of normal deaths in vegas that any other religion. Having been one my entire life (albeight not a GREAT one) they are no more deadly than all those creapy Catholics. ***end edit***
    Last edited by Siviak; April 26, 2004, 01:34.

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