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  • #31
    Originally posted by Deviant Ollam
    i side with polyhazard when it comes to disagreeing with the notion that politics have no place at DefCon. some of the MOST rewarding talks for me have been very politically relevant... EFF and Simple Nomad (particularly "Widdershins" at DC9) come to mind.

    i feel that criticism of one's own government and one's own society is among the most healthy acts a person can engage in, if it's done intelligently and without hysteria or ignorance. of course, from seeing what i did of the talk this speaker clearly crossed the line into asshat territory which is a shame to see.

    that said, i am a bit upset to hear that this talk wouldn't be included in the media archives or anything. i'm a huge opponent of deleting information or pushing stuff under the rug because someone was a fool. i say let it be seen, let it stand up to scrutiny, and let others talk amongst themselves about where the speaker went wrong and why violent action isn't productive.

    just my $0.02
    When politics create fragmentation in an already marginalized sub-culture, there is risk for a halting to information sharing and an increase to further dissention within our ranks. Technical and rational thought is replaced with zealotry, political spin and something more like dogma.

    Drop politics, and people with dissimilar beliefs will more willingly share information.

    Addition of politics risks fragmentation.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Deviant Ollam
      that said, i am a bit upset to hear that this talk wouldn't be included in the media archives or anything. i'm a huge opponent of deleting information or pushing stuff under the rug because someone was a fool. i say let it be seen, let it stand up to scrutiny, and let others talk amongst themselves about where the speaker went wrong and why violent action isn't productive.

      just my $0.02
      Not sure where you folks are getting this from. His asshatery will be archived for all to see unless the speaker himself asks us not to.

      I return whatever i wish . Its called FREEDOWM OF RANDOMNESS IN A HECK . CLUSTERED DEFEATED CORn FORUM . Welcome to me

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by noid
        Not sure where you folks are getting this from. His asshatery will be archived for all to see unless the speaker himself asks us not to.
        Hmm. Okay. I thought I heard Priest say something about an intent to strip it from the archive when he spoke about it afterward, but I may have been lost in some sort of alcoholic haze exacerbated by the heat at the time.

        Comment


        • #34
          5H took a different, and interesting approach with the political talks. I disagree with the notion of "keep politics out of Defcon." The underground is, after all, inextricably tied to politics. Politicians regularly pass bad laws that threaten us with jail terms for reverse-engineering and similar activities that annoy powerful corporations (and their campaign contributions). Ignoring this trend is unwise for those who value either intellectual or physical freedom!

          At 5H, political talks were assigned their own track. If you attended these talks, you went into it knowing that the speaker had a political agenda. A wide variety of perspectives were represented, although being Emmanuel's con, most of the talks had a leftist bent (even so, I don't think any of the talks were anywhere near as lame as CrimetheInc's).

          *TP

          Originally posted by bean
          Well, I think there are aspects to hacking that are political by nature (in the sense that the topic of hacking brings up political topics like the DMCA and the Patriot Act), but yeah, talks that are purely political and have very little (if anything) to do with hacking shouldn't have any place at Defcon. I'm glad Priest made that distinction, even if it did mean we had to wait to see Dan Kaminsky talk.
          My Web site is .

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Deviant Ollam
            i am a bit upset to hear that this talk wouldn't be included in the media archives or anything.
            Having attended the talk in question, I can assure you it's not worth watching, other than for it's train wreck factor. The speaker literally had nothing useful to say. In a talk about using the Internet to leverage civil disobedience he failed to mention his website or how he was using it. All of the techniques he did mention were basic stalking and harassing.

            In a time where EFF and Dean are using the Internet as a powerful organizing tool, the kid's idea of flooding email boxes and defacing websites were particularly quaint and naive.

            It's telling that he started the talk saying he expected to get arrested, but then he couldn't even manage that. If you're an anarchist and the FBI couldn't care less, it might be time to find a day job.

            Comment


            • #36
              And, FWIW, Priest did say the tape was getting pulled out of the archive.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by icer
                I am suprised you remember anything after the 3 humperdink shots and the massive amount of dunking.
                One word: videotape.
                We own everything so you don't have to!

                Comment


                • #38
                  Freedom of Speech versus Sedition

                  We live in dangerous times.

                  I disagree that we should keep poitics out of Defcon but agree that Defcon is not a political event. Raising money for EFF with the dunk tank could be construed as a "political" activity but the thousands of people who attend Defcon have a spectrum of political and religious values that were not represented by this speakers comments.

                  There is a *profound* difference between saying:

                  I believe <ideology> for these reasons

                  and

                  I believe violence is appropriate based on <ideology>

                  If it is true that the speaker's statements were miscommunicated to imply that he advocated violence against civilians, then he was extremely foolish and way out of line. By making statements, which I did not witness, allegedly of a seditious nature he endangered the entire event and the privacy of all the participants.

                  The law is painfully clear about the distinction between inciting violence (hate speech) and freedom of speech. Some of us older folks remember the early 80's when there was serious talk of using the sedition laws (which are STILL on the books from the 50's!!) to justify the violation of the privacy of Americans. This is a very serious issue. The existing sedition laws, when taken together with the Patriot Act provide unparalleled latitude to the government to violate our civil rights.

                  This speaker is effectively drawing fire and endangering us all with his rhetorical incompetance.

                  I believe this speaker was completely out of line and I'm thankful that priest clarified the position of the Defcon organization on the subject. In my opinion, the speaker should be asked to post a written retraction and apologize for his failure to utilize the common sense God gave the turnip when framing his talk.

                  Quote:
                  Originally Posted by noid
                  Not sure where you folks are getting this from. His asshatery will be archived for all to see unless the speaker himself asks us not to.

                  I would think defcon.org could make an exception in this case. I don't believe that defcon.org is under any obligation to publish this speakers poorly framed, ill-advised and badly articulated sentiments.
                  Last edited by ndex; August 4, 2004, 09:30.
                  That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Hey, I had no idea Crimethinc was going to say that. I did not read his speech. I think the political rant was nasty. Don't worry, I am watching intensely. I think the threats were baseless. The level is low. hardware so-so. The FBI needs to think about real work and this is not it. By the way that DEFCON security guy was a nob to me when I escorted crimethinc to the communications area. He started telling me he was a sniper and it sounded stupid. Priest got things wound down and he gained my admiration when he said he could just kill me. I love people who have some BALLS. Overall DEFCON was fun and amusing. I scared Crimthinc a little that night anyhow, he must have seen god or the devil. I am positive that I adjusted his candor. Hmmm my name is not in the Defcon logs. Wierd huh! Ha Ha. I love being an operator. daedeluslanthanien end message.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by y6y6y6
                      Having attended the talk in question, I can assure you it's not worth watching, other than for it's train wreck factor. The speaker literally had nothing useful to say. In a talk about using the Internet to leverage civil disobedience he failed to mention his website or how he was using it. All of the techniques he did mention were basic stalking and harassing.

                      In a time where EFF and Dean are using the Internet as a powerful organizing tool, the kid's idea of flooding email boxes and defacing websites were particularly quaint and naive.

                      It's telling that he started the talk saying he expected to get arrested, but then he couldn't even manage that. If you're an anarchist and the FBI couldn't care less, it might be time to find a day job.
                      I actually laughed out loud at his idea of taping black paper together and send it as a fax to the RNC.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by icer
                        I actually laughed out loud at his idea of taping black paper together and send it as a fax to the RNC.
                        Did he also mention opening the engine compartment on the back on the delegate's charter buses and turning the kill switch?

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          The rest of the story

                          Right. This seems to have gotten a bit out of hand what with all the rumors and the like flying about so….

                          For those of you who hate me and hate what I have to say please feel free to either go outside and play hide and go fuck yourself or go back to your rooms and bitch about what a big meanie I am and how I hurt your precious feelings on your live journals.

                          The rest of you who would like to know exactly what happened with Crime-whats-his-ass and his Yoko Ono girlfriend please read on.

                          As to the young gentleman, every year or so we get a punter like him who tells us he is going to speak on one thing and then does the old bait-and-switch. We try to catch it and put a stop to it before it gets too far out of hand but sometimes it slips though. This was one of those times. We shut him down at the end and due to the very negative mood of the crowd, including several people who did rush the stage and attempt to attack the young man we decided that it would be best to escort him, for his own protection, to a safe area while we made sure the crowd calmed down. After this he was brought back to the Apollo area where several journalists and attendees were waiting to ask him questions. After the Q&A he declined further protection and was last seen as of Saturday night crouching by a set of stairs near pool two looking a bit like Golum and randomly lashing out at people who looked at him ‘funny’. He was not asked to leave the con nor was he, to our knowledge assaulted by con members or arrested. He will not be invited to speak at Defcon again. His speach is on the CD and I am not sure if he will be on the video's.


                          Now let me reiterate what I said in my rants in several talks. Defcon, the staff of Defcon, and I would like to think the majority of the Defcon community, do not subscribe to what was said in the talk. For myself, I am a strict constitutionalist and am a strong supporter of the 1st, 2nd, 4th, and 5th amendments and quite frankly if called upon,as I believe all on the Defcon staff and most all within the Defcon community, will fight to the death defending your rights and freedoms and would be some of the first to take up arms against a Tyranny.

                          However, we DO NOT live in a Tyranny. Don’t think so? Please feel free to travel to Iran, North Korea, or China and in a very loud voice in a very public forum start spouting off about how they oppress their people and what criminals the government are and see how fast you end up staring down the barrel of a gun followed by a kangaroo court trail followed by either a long ‘re-education camp’ sentence if you are lucky or a bullet to the back of the head with the cost of the bullet being charged to your family if you are not so lucky. Hell, I am a big believer in Darwin in action so to thin the gene pool I will pay for your ticket to fly there if you think I am full of it.

                          Yes I have heard the argument that this country was founded by “Terrorists” and that the difference between a “terrorist” and a “freedom fighter” depends on how you look at the fight they are fighting. This is horseshit of the highest caliber. Freedom fighters do not target and kill civilians. Those who do are nothing more than murderers and common thugs and no better than a sociopath criminal gang-banger shooting without care into a crowd and killing a 8 year old child instead of the fellow gangster being targeted. I have also heard the crapass argument that he was just engaging in "free speach". The constitution guarantee’s our right to free and responsible speech it does not allow us to engage in speech that leads to the loss of life, limb, and the destruction of property.

                          That being said we have a system in place in this country to enact the changes to government that these folk advocate without the use of violence or destruction of property. It is called the vote and when only 10% of your age group goes out to vote frankly the other 90% of you better just shut-the-fuck-up-and-sit-the-fuck-down. No vote no voice.

                          The vote combined with the use of non-violent civil protest is how we change things here and this is what Defcon supports. Destruction of property, the taking of life, the creation of injury and hardship, and the destruction of Data in the name of political change or for any reason for that matter is not some noble and honorable act, it is the act of a common thug.

                          Priest
                          Lving my life in the gutter so you don't have to.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by noid
                            Not sure where you folks are getting this from. His asshatery will be archived for all to see unless the speaker himself asks us not to.
                            good, i was worried it wouldn't as i missed this, only caught the last half of Priest's interjection from my hotel room ..

                            i have a sick enjoyment of watching people dig themselves into a hole ..
                            Last edited by replicant; August 4, 2004, 11:50.
                            " I want to believe all of these things? But you caught me at a bad moment and I can't. "

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Dan-

                              Thank you for your words. I apologize for not leting you in on why I was going political and I apologize to the audience for going political. I don't really believe it is my place or the place of Defcon to go on a political rant but we had to distance ourselves from what this kid was saying else all of the headlines would have read "Defcon advocates pipe bombs and political assasination" or some other such wankery.

                              Priest
                              Lving my life in the gutter so you don't have to.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Nicely Put

                                Originally posted by priest
                                Right. This seems to have gotten a bit out of hand what with all the rumors and the like flying about so….

                                For those of you who hate me and hate what I have to say please feel free to either go outside and play hide and go fuck yourself or go back to your rooms and bitch about what a big meanie I am and how I hurt your precious feelings on your live journals.

                                The rest of you who would like to know exactly what happened with Crime-whats-his-ass and his Yoko Ono girlfriend please read on.

                                As to the young gentleman, every year or so we get a punter like him who tells us he is going to speak on one thing and then does the old bait-and-switch. We try to catch it and put a stop to it before it gets too far out of hand but sometimes it slips though. This was one of those times. We shut him down at the end and due to the very negative mood of the crowd, including several people who did rush the stage and attempt to attack the young man we decided that it would be best to escort him, for his own protection, to a safe area while we made sure the crowd calmed down. After this he was brought back to the Apollo area where several journalists and attendees were waiting to ask him questions. After the Q&A he declined further protection and was last seen as of Saturday night crouching by a set of stairs near pool two looking a bit like Golum and randomly lashing out at people who looked at him ‘funny’. He was not asked to leave the con nor was he, to our knowledge assaulted by con members or arrested. He will not be invited to speak at Defcon again. His speach is on the CD and I am not sure if he will be on the video's.


                                Now let me reiterate what I said in my rants in several talks. Defcon, the staff of Defcon, and I would like to think the majority of the Defcon community, do not subscribe to what was said in the talk. For myself, I am a strict constitutionalist and am a strong supporter of the 1st, 2nd, 4th, and 5th amendments and quite frankly if called upon,as I believe all on the Defcon staff and most all within the Defcon community, will fight to the death defending your rights and freedoms and would be some of the first to take up arms against a Tyranny.

                                However, we DO NOT live in a Tyranny. Don’t think so? Please feel free to travel to Iran, North Korea, or China and in a very loud voice in a very public forum start spouting off about how they oppress their people and what criminals the government are and see how fast you end up staring down the barrel of a gun followed by a kangaroo court trail followed by either a long ‘re-education camp’ sentence if you are lucky or a bullet to the back of the head with the cost of the bullet being charged to your family if you are not so lucky. Hell, I am a big believer in Darwin in action so to thin the gene pool I will pay for your ticket to fly there if you think I am full of it.

                                Yes I have heard the argument that this country was founded by “Terrorists” and that the difference between a “terrorist” and a “freedom fighter” depends on how you look at the fight they are fighting. This is horseshit of the highest caliber. Freedom fighters do not target and kill civilians. Those who do are nothing more than murderers and common thugs and no better than a sociopath criminal gang-banger shooting without care into a crowd and killing a 8 year old child instead of the fellow gangster being targeted. I have also heard the crapass argument that he was just engaging in "free speach". The constitution guarantee’s our right to free and responsible speech it does not allow us to engage in speech that leads to the loss of life, limb, and the destruction of property.

                                That being said we have a system in place in this country to enact the changes to government that these folk advocate without the use of violence or destruction of property. It is called the vote and when only 10% of your age group goes out to vote frankly the other 90% of you better just shut-the-fuck-up-and-sit-the-fuck-down. No vote no voice.

                                The vote combined with the use of non-violent civil protest is how we change things here and this is what Defcon supports. Destruction of property, the taking of life, the creation of injury and hardship, and the destruction of Data in the name of political change or for any reason for that matter is not some noble and honorable act, it is the act of a common thug.

                                Priest
                                I agree totally, hopefully he will heed my warnings. I think his anarchist views are out of line with the majority of anarchist that I know. We endeavour to destroy our enemies, but we strive to be loved by the proletariat. We like everything to be highly erudite, well spoken, and concise. I am kicking myself for not becoming more involved with the presentation. I think that nuking the RNC alone is wrong. If your going to nuke one hell why not nuke em all! (equal opportunity) I want to have a more positive time next year. This bullshit gave me stress, The only good thing was taking a grand from Mandalay Bay! And that other little op. Hey Priest, Instead of close kill shots how about this, I will challenge you to a wrestling match at DEFCON 13. You out-wiegh me by quite a bit, are you game? It will be funny shit. P.S. I sense you were in the service, you feel strange somehow, you've killed. I may be wrong so please except my apology in advance. I'm wierd. Hmmm

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