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possible competition event... beer cooling contraptions

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  • #16
    Originally posted by bascule
    You know, nothing beats the practicality of a cooler filled with dry ice...
    would that really work faster than the ice+water+salt? i would think that with air as opposed to a liquid medium in the cooler the thermal transfer wouldn't be as fast.

    seriously, though, some people seem pretty excited about this. i'm gonna get DT's take on the idea and see if he likes it as an unofficial contest. i'll work up some rules, etc. with all of your input.
    "I'll admit I had an OiNK account and frequented it quite often… What made OiNK a great place was that it was like the world's greatest record store… iTunes kind of feels like Sam Goody to me. I don't feel cool when I go there. I'm tired of seeing John Mayer's face pop up. I feel like I'm being hustled when I visit there, and I don't think their product is that great. DRM, low bit rate, etc... OiNK it existed because it filled a void of what people want."
    - Trent Reznor

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    • #17
      so, i've emailed DT to ask for his thoughts on whether or not this has the makings for a fun and successful DefCon competition event. while we await word of the contet's future, let's discuss some potential rules and regs. i think this has a shot to be a really fun contest. i'd like all of your input in the hopes of making it better.

      here's what i've come up with when considering what we've discussed so far...

      general parameters...
      • 12 oz beer
      • all beers same brand, temp, etc
      • all players get together at once, try to run all at same time (mostly for temp reasons)


      hard rules...
      • target time limit is sixty seconds (can go beyond but points get deducted the longer it takes. would we kill someone's competition after a certain amount of time? like 5 or 15 minuters? after all, by that time point they could have just used the cooler+ice+water+salt trick)
      • target temp is 38º F, but should not overshoot 35º F
      • device should be self-sufficient (not require AC outlet power)


      other judging points...
      • players should be mindful of flavor tainting
      • too much foaming/head/splillover is a penalty
      • size/practicality/power consumption will be possibly considered
      • enivronmental impact will be considered (don't vent an assoload of freon coolant into the air)
      • bonus points for creativity of design
      • bonus points for aesthetic considerations


      what is still uncertain for me...
      • cooling in can/bottle or letting liquid out in the open. (perhaps make this two distinct competition categories?)
      • what sort of spending limit (if any) would be in place to even the playing field. (does the Wi-Fi shoot have any budget limit? i know they have categories for homemade vs. commercial equipment... but i'm not aware of any spending cap)
      "I'll admit I had an OiNK account and frequented it quite often… What made OiNK a great place was that it was like the world's greatest record store… iTunes kind of feels like Sam Goody to me. I don't feel cool when I go there. I'm tired of seeing John Mayer's face pop up. I feel like I'm being hustled when I visit there, and I don't think their product is that great. DRM, low bit rate, etc... OiNK it existed because it filled a void of what people want."
      - Trent Reznor

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Deviant Ollam
        general parameters...
        • 12 oz beer
        • all beers same brand, temp, etc
        • all players get together at once, try to run all at same time (mostly for temp reasons)
        All cans to be used should be given to the contest organizer to hold in a common case 24 hours before contest starts to all beer starts at the same temperature. Multiple cans would be needed if multiple tries are allowed. Time should start from the time the person initially picks up the beer can. (This could be an extra time to break ties or go to score, but primarily is to eliminate problems where it may take 5 minutes for a person to place the beer, and all the time it is being placed, it is also being cooled.)
        Maybe a full 6 pack for each entry, where one is selected and tasted to verify it really is beer. ;-)
        Any left over is awarded to the winners as a prize.

        hard rules...
        • target time limit is sixty seconds (can go beyond but points get deducted the longer it takes. would we kill someone's competition after a certain amount of time? like 5 or 15 minuters? after all, by that time point they could have just used the cooler+ice+water+salt trick)
        • target temp is 38º F, but should not overshoot 35º F
        • device should be self-sufficient (not require AC outlet power)
        Monitoring of temperature could be an issue, and how long it is monitored after reaching the temperature could be an issue too.

        A super-fast cooling system could overshoot if temperature is checked for a bit longer than the point where the temperature first reads between 35 and 37 degrees (F)

        other judging points...[list][*]players should be mindful of flavor tainting[*]too much foaming/head/splillover is a penalty
        Good idea, because less mass to cool means less time to do it.

        what is still uncertain for me...[list][*]cooling in can/bottle or letting liquid out in the open. (perhaps make this two distinct competition categories?)
        I think if you are ambiguous enough to state the beer must be in a, "drinking container," then you have opportunity for people to be even more clever in presentation and work. (It would be hard for someone to argue that a flat pan is a, "drinking container," but someone may create a custom container, or try other techniques.

        [*]what sort of spending limit (if any) would be in place to even the playing field. (does the Wi-Fi shoot have any budget limit?
        This is one of those things that has many people a bit upset. The WiFi shootout has become a kind of, "whoever has the most money can win," and this is certainly not an example of the best way to encourage examples of hacking.
        A dollar limit is a great idea to help encourage ghetto-style hackers and people who cobble things together from houshold parts or junk.

        [soap box]To many people, hacking is not measured by how many resources a person can afford, but by how they are able to utilize limited resources to make something unexpected, or impressive.
        Dollar limits are a good idea-- even if there are different ranges of dollar amounts for different categories; at least compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges.[/soap box]
        Last edited by TheCotMan; June 21, 2005, 13:11. Reason: typos/fat-finger keystroke fixes

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        • #19
          Originally posted by TheCotMan
          has become a kind of, "whoever has the most money can win," and this is certainly not an example of the best way to encourage examples of hacking....

          [soap box]To many people, hacking is not measured by how many resources a person can afford, but by how they are able to utilize limited resources to make something unexpected, or impressive.
          Dollar limits are a good idea-- even if there are different ranges of dollar amounts for different categories; at least compare apples to apples and organces to oranges.[/soap box]

          here here. I could not agree more.
          If I had a nickle for every time someone offered me ten cents to keep my two cents to myself... I would be a rich man.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by TheCotMan
            [soap box]To many people, hacking is not measured by how many resources a person can afford, but by how they are able to utilize limited resources to make something unexpected, or impressive.
            Dollar limits are a good idea-- even if there are different ranges of dollar amounts for different categories; at least compare apples to apples and organces to oranges.[/soap box]

            Perhaps requiring construction on-site or having an 'hack quality' points catagory? A cheap, easy hack gets more points than some pre-fabbed months-spent-building contraption.

            Also consider number of steps required. A rube goldberg setup should get less points than a really simple design (or more, depending on criteria)
            Never drink anything larger than your head!





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            • #21
              Originally posted by renderman
              Perhaps requiring construction on-site or having an 'hack quality' points catagory? A cheap, easy hack gets more points than some pre-fabbed months-spent-building contraption.

              Also consider number of steps required. A rube goldberg setup should get less points than a really simple design (or more, depending on criteria)
              These are good ideas too. I think that LoST(boy) has plans to include judegments based on difficulty (connection of COTS devices vs building) in his original suggestion for the IP Appliance/Embedded devices contest.

              The problem with on-site design for this contest is people know the device to be built, and may bring parts with them. That would really kick ass in a competition where the item(s) to be built were unknonwn until the day, and then choices were offered to people in the contest.

              All of your ideas here are other good suggestions to getting around the "gonna buy myself a prize" mentality. I really like how the Scavenger Hunt organizers considered this in their planning. It was discussed in another thread and someone wrote they were trying to get away from it being a game of who has more money, and make it more a game of skill.

              [I got an IM from someone telling me the last paragraph might be taken as a bad view of the Scavenger Hunt. A better description would be:
              "someone wrote about how they were trying to prevent the Scavenger Hunt contest from being a money-competition, and keep it a game of skill."

              Sorry to S.H. organizers if you thought it was negative. The S.H. is one of the contests that is like CTF, and I like CTF too. :-) ]
              Last edited by TheCotMan; June 21, 2005, 17:11.

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              • #22
                Well the point is not really to just cool drinks.... the point is to do it very quickly. That is an idea which should breed some interesting creations.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by NegroSuave
                  Well the point is not really to just cool drinks.... the point is to do it very quickly. That is an idea which should breed some interesting creations.
                  exactly. i am hoping that people work towards creation of a device that could eventually be operated in hot areas (like poolside at defcon) where a person has a warm drink and for 25 cents can get it icy cold in moments. sort of like a reverse-microwave for beverages. now that is something that society needs.

                  innovative design that serves humankind... that is the over-arching goal with which i would have all contestants proceed.
                  "I'll admit I had an OiNK account and frequented it quite often… What made OiNK a great place was that it was like the world's greatest record store… iTunes kind of feels like Sam Goody to me. I don't feel cool when I go there. I'm tired of seeing John Mayer's face pop up. I feel like I'm being hustled when I visit there, and I don't think their product is that great. DRM, low bit rate, etc... OiNK it existed because it filled a void of what people want."
                  - Trent Reznor

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    I will still stick by $100 dollars being the top.... so much can be done with that kinda money. I woudl say points for using less money should be allotted

                    There would need to be a judge for everyone as to monitor the temperature as it goes. Each person with an entry would then be able to say stop when they want it to stop and have their temperature and time recorded.


                    I also second the idea of a vaguery that the beer has to be in a "drinking container" so can cups sacks and pouches would all be good.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by NegroSuave
                      There would need to be a judge for everyone as to monitor the temperature as it goes. Each person with an entry would then be able to say stop when they want it to stop and have their temperature and time recorded.
                      my plan was to obtain a set of digital stem thermometers (which update continuously in real-time) and just leave them in the beers as they poured out / came out of the contraptions. whenever someone reached the alloted temp they would just shout "done!" and have a judge look over their shoulder to verify that the temp is correct.
                      Originally posted by NegroSuave
                      I also second the idea of a vaguery that the beer has to be in a "drinking container" so can cups sacks and pouches would all be good.
                      i like that there's flexibilty. of course, if someone has a device which can cool beers while still in their cans (which would be much more difficult, thermodynamically, than beer flowing free through some system of tubes, etc) they would get consideration on the "degree of difficulty" & "convenience to user" side of things.
                      "I'll admit I had an OiNK account and frequented it quite often… What made OiNK a great place was that it was like the world's greatest record store… iTunes kind of feels like Sam Goody to me. I don't feel cool when I go there. I'm tired of seeing John Mayer's face pop up. I feel like I'm being hustled when I visit there, and I don't think their product is that great. DRM, low bit rate, etc... OiNK it existed because it filled a void of what people want."
                      - Trent Reznor

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by TheCotMan
                        All of your ideas here are other good suggestions to getting around the "gonna buy myself a prize" mentality. I really like how the Scavenger Hunt organizers considered this in their planning. It was discussed in another thread and someone wrote they were trying to get away from it being a game of who has more money, and make it more a game of skill.

                        [I got an IM from someone telling me the last paragraph might be taken as a bad view of the Scavenger Hunt. A better description would be:
                        "someone wrote about how they were trying to prevent the Scavenger Hunt contest from being a money-competition, and keep it a game of skill."

                        Sorry to S.H. organizers if you thought it was negative. The S.H. is one of the contests that is like CTF, and I like CTF too. :-) ]
                        I was reading your post and saw th paragraph in question and thought it was a complement, and took it as such. We (DC801) have always had this in mind when setting up The Hunt. Thanks for the clarification anyway. Good luck on the contest, I can't wait to see how it turns out.

                        No promises, but I'm thinking that a writ of competing in this contest signed by Deviant Ollam will be worth some decent points in the Scavenger Hunt. <g>

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                        • #27
                          do we get points for portability?
                          If I had a nickle for every time someone offered me ten cents to keep my two cents to myself... I would be a rich man.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Siviak
                            do we get points for portability?
                            yes, points would be awarded for innovative designs that incorporate convenience and efficient engineering, all of which applies in the case of an easily portable unit.

                            by the way, people can take a look at the contest's info page for the whole rundown, etc.

                            i ran the event past the DefCon staff, and Dead Addict said he didn't see a problem with it, so i guess i'm actually doing this! i'll start a thread in the "unofficial contests" section for people to register, etc.
                            "I'll admit I had an OiNK account and frequented it quite often… What made OiNK a great place was that it was like the world's greatest record store… iTunes kind of feels like Sam Goody to me. I don't feel cool when I go there. I'm tired of seeing John Mayer's face pop up. I feel like I'm being hustled when I visit there, and I don't think their product is that great. DRM, low bit rate, etc... OiNK it existed because it filled a void of what people want."
                            - Trent Reznor

                            Comment

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