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What type of locks should I expect at the contest?

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  • Deviant Ollam
    replied
    Originally posted by TheCotMan
    Each seration causes the picker to feel a "click" like what might be felt if the pins had just met the sheer/shear* line, and cause the picker to apply a little more tension to rotate to the next pin. However, once the pin has started to bind, it is often stuck unless the picker resets the plug to a neutral position.
    described very well by cotman, render, and others. starting here is where my presentation slides deal with security pins. the diagrams there illustrate in further detail what people are talking about. (see how mushroom pins don't set properly, and how spool and serrated pins could easily fool the picker with the sensation of a click even when the shear line isn't met?)

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  • renderman
    replied
    Originally posted by che
    Speaking of, does anyone have a good cutaway of a lock with those types? I would love to be able to pick at one where I could see what I am doing to learn the proper technique.

    I might be able to snag a few cut-aways at the Locksport International meeting on Saturday from Varjeal.

    I think I might be able to bring a wieser.

    Easiest way to learn about dealing with security pins is to just go out and buy and American 1105 (or similar model) padlock, disassemble it and set it up with 1-2 pins. The one I have has a number of spool and serated pins (including 2 serrated spools, evil! ) and I'm up to dealing with 2 serrated and 2 spools (started at 1 pin and got the feel. You start to feel a false set and a real set quite easily that way. Serrated pins, with a light touch can be lifted past the serrations (clicking from serration, to serration), to the real shear line.

    Here's an evil pick resistance idea: Take a lock with serrated driver pins and run a 1/32" or so tap down the pin chamber and thread the inside walls :) The pin would have to be lifted perfectly straight and moved laterally at exactly the shear line to open.

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  • TheCotMan
    replied
    Originally posted by che
    I would love to be able to pick at one where I could see what I am doing to learn the proper technique.
    Looks like Kai helped you out with an image.

    Theory:
    The pins with serated edges work on the principle of "generating false positives" for the person who is picking and difficulty for the raker.

    Each seration causes the picker to feel a "click" like what might be felt if the pins had just met the sheer/shear* line, and cause the picker to apply a little more tension to rotate to the next pin. However, once the pin has started to bind, it is often stuck unless the picker resets the plug to a neutral position.

    Raking has a similar effect, but more pins get stuck in a bound position.

    Spools work on a similar technique to cause binding where the picker thinks they have a sheer/shear line but really do not.

    A technique that is supposed to help the picker, in theory, if the serated edges or spools do not exist on either to top or bottom pins, it to "start" each pin in the reverse position.
    If the top pin has the edges, and the bottom one does not, push the pin to max height, and slowly let it drop while looking/feeling for that pin position's sheer/shear point.
    If the reverse is the case, then start from the bottom and push up.
    If serated edges edist on both the top and bottom (and middle if master) then this technique does not help much.

    Interlocking pins are quite different. In addition to having to be pushed to the sheer/shear line, the pins must be rotated to a specific angle. The cuts on the keys used to operate such locks do not [always] have cuts orthogonal to the plane of the key as it lays flat [like conventional pin tumbler locks]. These cuts can cross the key at an "angle" (hence the name, "angular key cut".)

    The bottom pins in these interlocking pins are not rounded but flatened. (Not like a bullet, but more like a wide car bumper.) This allows the bottom pin to rotate to the groove in the key and allow the interlocking pins to be positioned to separate.

    HTH. :-)

    *sheer/shear - I've seen it in print both ways, and both can make sense. A "cut" line vs. a steep angle. I don't know which was first used, or which is correct, or if only one is correct.
    Last edited by TheCotMan; July 13, 2005, 14:29. Reason: grammar/omitted word/readability

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  • Kai
    replied
    Originally posted by Voltage Spike
    Perhaps this is the reason you received praise from TheCotMan, no?
    hmm, good point.

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  • Kai
    replied
    Originally posted by che
    Speaking of, does anyone have a good cutaway of a lock with those types? I would love to be able to pick at one where I could see what I am doing to learn the proper technique.
    www.lockpickshop.com

    They sell a few different models with spool pins for both left and right handers.

    "All five stations are pinned with spool drivers instead of the standard top pins, creating a pick resistant cylinder. "


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  • Gadsden
    replied
    Originally posted by TheCotMan
    "Mushroom", "Spool", "Serrated", "Interlocking" (for angular/angular cut keys)

    I think you mean either serrated or interlocking pins.
    Speaking of, does anyone have a good cutaway of a lock with those types? I would love to be able to pick at one where I could see what I am doing to learn the proper technique.

    Leave a comment:


  • Voltage Spike
    replied
    Originally posted by Kai
    We're more like janitors, making it easier for everyone else to enjoy an organized lockpicking event.
    Perhaps this is the reason you received praise from TheCotMan, no?

    Leave a comment:


  • Kai
    replied
    Originally posted by lil_freak
    Kai, why does it have to be janitors? Can't we be something more like secretaries?
    Because there was only one contestant I wouldn't mind being sexually harassed by last year! Too much testosterone in this group. Get the female contingent in the contest to grow and they can call me whatever they want.

    Did I say that out loud?

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  • lil_freak
    replied
    Originally posted by Kai
    We're more like janitors, making it easier for everyone else to enjoy an organized lockpicking event.
    Kai, why does it have to be janitors? Can't we be something more like secretaries?

    Leave a comment:


  • Kai
    replied
    Originally posted by TheCotMan
    "Mushroom", "Spool", "Serrated", "Interlocking" (for angular/angular cut keys)

    I think you mean either serrated or interlocking pins.

    HTH :-)

    BTW, I have posted my negative feelings on how the the WiFi contest has been, but I want to be constructive too. I can do this by pointing out contests that I like. I think they way you and your group have been running the LP Contest is great. This has been an example of a well run contest. I also like the Scavenger Hunt-- especially with the controversy it generates near the end of the game. I also like how the War Driving competition has been changed to make intelligent, and original creativity more important than brute force.

    Of course, the opinions expressed here are those of a spectator, whose opinions don't necessarily matter. ;-)
    Yep, serrated.



    I appreciate the sentiments about the contest, but we can't really take much of the credit for it. That goes to all the spectators and contestants. We're more like janitors, making it easier for everyone else to enjoy an organized lockpicking event. My goal is to have the best time I can as a spectator, learning from a lot of the people involved. In order to do that, I need the contest to go as smoothly as possible. So every year we try and "adjust" things to make them a little bit better without really changing the format much. Every year I'm a total worry wart as we change something like the sensors and the timer. This year we are using different brand locks all keyed the same for each round. They are a little more difficult, but should still be considered on the low end as far as difficulty goes. Until the end of round one this year and I (hopefully) see that people aren't falling apart on the small jump of difficulty, I'll be a nervous wreck!

    So basically I'm very selfish in wanting the contest to go smoothly, not for anyone else, but so I can learn from others and see some great skills in action! They're are a lot of cool things I'd like to see added to the contest, but we'll see if I can ever get those incorporated. Now that we've got some really great sponsors, maybe I can do some of those things next year.

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  • TheCotMan
    replied
    Originally posted by Kai
    "grooved" (can never remember the name of these) pins.
    "Mushroom", "Spool", "Serrated", "Interlocking" (for angular/angular cut keys)

    I think you mean either serrated or interlocking pins.

    HTH :-)

    BTW, I have posted my negative feelings on how the the WiFi contest has been, but I want to be constructive too. I can do this by pointing out contests that I like. I think the way you and your group have been running the LP Contest is great. This has been an example of a well run contest. I also like the Scavenger Hunt-- especially with the controversy it generates near the end of the game. I also like how the War Driving competition has been changed to make intelligent, and original creativity more important than brute force.

    Of course, the opinions expressed here are those of a spectator, whose opinions don't necessarily matter. ;-)
    Last edited by TheCotMan; July 13, 2005, 09:19.

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  • Kai
    replied
    Pretty much everything said so far is correct.

    For the speed competition, a standard set of tools will be all you need. If you plan to test your mettle on the obstacle course, bring all your tools as you never know what will be on there!

    All the locks will be keyed exactly the same in each round, in order to keep things as fair as possible. Their will be no high security features such as spooled pins or "grooved" (can never remember the name of these) pins. The contest is to demonstrate the speed at which these security devices can be bypassed in a typical residential or small business environment (yes, these types of locks appear elsewhere, but we're looking at those that don't pay attentions to physical security, think Wifi type ignorance).

    I'm very excited about the possibility of speakers and experienced physical security experts hanging out in the contest room doing demonstrations and generally interacting with those just learning about locks. I would like to invite any and all who are interested in sharing their knowledge or demonstrating different types of locks to stop by the Athena room. The demo boards provided by dc719 always keep a constant crowd of people, so there will be plenty of people interested in what you have to say.

    Yes, Varjeal and Freaky from lp101.com teamed up to sponsor the event this year, so that we can make things as fair as possible with higher quality locks all keyed the same. I can't thank them enough for their contributions. If your buying lockpicks at the con, stop by the IU booth and ask for Freaky. Tell them KaiGoth sent you, but don't ask for my "discount" or they'll add a $5 handling fee! ;)

    We'll be selling some kick ass t-shirts and hats to help pay for the contest as well this year (with a donation from DT the first year, I have been funding the contest out of pocket). The contest is upgraded every year, with higher quality components like the new timer last year and new locks this year. We are rebuilding some of the boards as well. I am always open to suggestions on how to make the event better, so feel free to hit me up at the con or send me an email as well.

    Lastly, while I'm going on and on and on, I would like to point ouit www.locksport.com. This is a new organization with the goal of building lockpicking groups kind of like the DC groups. They also want to begin hosting and regulating lockpicking events/contests, and I am hoping to get the LPCON more involved with them to help share the fun of the sport/hobby. One of their goals is to legitimize the activity, so that criminal enforcement agencies don't give us a hard time. Can you imagine the threat of criminal charges just for having Nessus installed on your laptop? That's what those who posess lockpicks face in some areas.

    Anyways, off my soapbox. Hope I've confirmed the answers you've already received. Please feel free to contact me or post any other questions.

    Kai

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  • Deviant Ollam
    replied
    splendid to see you here on the forums, mouse!
    Originally posted by mouseling
    how about a lips cylinder, some abus stuff, and if i can get Matt to lend it to me a bramah.
    sounds like terrific stuff for the public area. they're recently re-worked the speaker schedule in such a way that those of us who are lock enthusasts will have a hell of a saturday afternoon. (i'm going to have to change the competition time of the BCCC to either friday or sunday at noon... what would people prefer? i'll post a poll in another thread, methinks) i'd love to see a bramah... never had my hands on one. if that BEST SFIC padlock and the Schlage everest core appear, i'd be thrilled with a chance to fiddle with them.
    Originally posted by mouseling
    i'll bring a few cutaways for people and some 2 and 3 pinned cylinders for newbies to practice on. ... Deviant, should i bring any spare pick-sets?
    the more gear, the merrier... just be aware that the scene tends to get really crazy (and i suspect that this year there will be more of a madhouse than ever before, what with the attention and interest that sport picking has generated) so i wouldn't reccomend letting people you've never met borrow your picks. i'm going to have a bunch of southord sets available for the public, but i'm going to ask for people to deposit cash which we'll hold on to until the set is returned.

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  • renderman
    replied
    You can expect Knobs, Deadbolts and padlocks for the timed comp. Nothing fancy since time is the issue. However expect something slightly better than kwikset since these are good Canadian locks :)

    /me warms up the bogota rake

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  • mouseling
    replied
    how about a lips cylinder, some abus stuff, and if i can get Matt to lend it to me a bramah.

    i'll bring a few cutaways for people and some 2 and 3 pinned cylinders for newbies to practice on.

    Deviant, should i bring any spare pick-sets?

    -mouse

    Leave a comment:

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