Blackhat sold to CMP

[TheCotMan]

The only way it could theoretically effect Blackhat is if DEFCON charged Blackhat $x per admission to pass out those 'get in free' stubs, ranging from cutrate to full price per attendee.

This is something I am a little worried about.

During the process of separating the resources used for each convention along clear-cut borders, decisions will be made about things like the free pass to DefCon for BH people.

A common method for dealing with such things that have been tied closely together is a system of chargebacks. This allows paper to show money flowing in two directions even though no money exchanges hands-- a kind of barter or trade is what really takes place.

If there is no money passed from BH to DefCon to allow BH people to attend DC for "free" (instead subsidized by DefCon attendees who are actually paying for DefCon) then my worry is a non-issue, and everything is happy, from my point of view.

... my grandma says non-issue. :p

Does she use "teh" (the) Ouiji? I've heard it is better than the magic Eight Ball.

/me hopes you and your grandma are right on this.

[converge]

One decision I am only a little worried about has to do with corporate decisions on profit, in having the BH registration include payment for DefCon passes.

I think you're looking at this from the wrong angle. It is uncertain from the laymans perspective how the ownership will effect Blackhat costs, operations etc.. other than the fact that Mr Moss will continue to run things for x amount of time. While the cost of attending Defcon changes slightly from year to year, it has been well established by the person running the conference

that DEF CON will never be for sale

Now, the way I see it.. it becomes logistics/cost of DEFCON as to whether or not admittance of BH attendees stays free. The only way it could theoretically effect Blackhat is if DEFCON charged Blackhat $x per admission to pass out those 'get in free' stubs, ranging from cutrate to full price per attendee. But ultimately the pass and its carried cost through Blackhat attendance only effects the operating cost of running DEFCON. Greater attendance at Blackhat passively increases attendence at DEFCON. In the past years this may have been a problem due to existing Defcon attendence, hotel space, etc.. but it doesn't appear that this is the case anymore. Given that past attendees payed $0 to attend Defcon afterwards, the question becomes whether or not it is necessary to fund their attendance now.

From what I understand, the average BH attendee is better educated/experienced than the average DefCon attendee. DefCon benefits from having BH people also visit DefCon.

Moreso to point out that people attending Blackhat are more likely to be attending for a mature purpose.. learning, work, etc... compare the environment, compare the cost of attending. Now compare this to the vast percentage of Defcon attendees exclusively attending to party, drink, drug, and rave. Now include the fact that most Defcon talks are given by those that talk at Blackhat (insta-free cause their styleecool and shit) ... and you have a recipe that implies charging these fellows more does not make sense. It would make more sense to charge the ravers and clingons (except Worf) a little extra to handle the assumed costs of these extra Blackhat attendees.

So the way I see it, it is contigent upon both Mr Moss and TheDarkTangent to agree on how this cost will be assumed; the real decision about cost of the pass lying in DT's corner. If DT says Blackhat attendees are free.. it doesn't matter what CMP thinks on the matter. Whether you have the little stub or not, it can/will happen through the ninjitsu skill of reg goons and reg grannies. If the pass is deemed free, it would be in the best interest of CMP to give the coupon out as an extra perk; simple value added at no cost to the CMP botton line other than printing it. The only reason I can think othercase would be if Mr Moss held a beef with TheDarkTangent and those already attending DEFCON... then Mr Moss might have the pull to persuade CMP to deviously undermine logic to thwart the benevolent plans of DT. ...

... my grandma says non-issue. :p

[TheCotMan]

One worry I had, was one of BH disallowing certain BH speakers from speaking at DC for reasons of corporate profit through "exclusive contracts and financial incentives." However, this quote caused me to worry about this issue much less:

(from article:)
[This change in ownership will help by ... ] "enabling me to keep doing what I love the most -- working with speakers and building the conference programs"

If DT will still coordinate speakers for both, then the chance for exclusive corporate presentation enforcement to be BH-only seems to me to be a much smaller risk.

Also, this helps too:

the team I will be with for BH seems very cool, all long term industry people.

One decision I am only a little worried about has to do with corporate decisions on profit, in having the BH registration include payment for DefCon passes. Perhaps, BH may move to offering itemized options during registration, that would no longer make attendece to DefCon "free" (part of the base BH package) but an itemized option, that can be selected that will increase the cost of BH. (My worry.)

From what I understand, the average BH attendee is better educated/experienced than the average DefCon attendee. DefCon benefits from having BH people also visit DefCon.

Not allowing BH attendees to choose to have a lower cost by deselecting DC as an option is a good idea to keep as-is.

If for some reason, it was to be changed to be an additional BH fee that was selectable at registration, then the charge could be less than what most DefCon people pay for DefCon because IMO, DefCon benefits when BH people also attend DefCon.

[octalpus]

Don't some of the speakers from black hat las vegas also speak at defcon? What is going to happen?

Yes, many of them speak at both. They also speak at Toorcon, Shmoocon, Layer One, and many other unrelated conventions. I fail to see how this will affect any of that. I suspect they'll still be just as eager to speak at both, given the advantage of proximity.

[klepto]

Don't some of the speakers from black hat las vegas also speak at defcon? What is going to happen?

[The Dark Tangent]

Bh / Dc

Yeah, it took a lot of time to make sure everyone understood that not only are they separate shows, but that DEF CON will never be for sale. I either run it with my friends and supporters, or I spike it in the ground.

In one form or another Black Hat has been approached for the last four years by prospective buyers. The difference with CMP is that they already ran a security show, CSI, and know what they were getting into with a conference. As a publisher they know about the problems of getting sued for what they print and what their writers say. It doesn't scare them. Finally the team I will be with for BH seems very cool, all long term industry people. I have detected no ego in anyone yet, just a sort of desire to run a good business.

On the plus side the resources look good, and the desire to grow to other markets is appealing. Black Hat Press? Black Hat newsletter? Mailing Lists? More training? Not sure, but it is all possible now with a big brother helping out. I wanted to focus more on content, and selling was about the only way I figured this was possible without shrinking the business.

Over the next bunch of months I'm going to de-tangle DEF CON from Black Hat. We shared resources like network and servers, but now I've got to separate them. I've got new office space for DEF CON on the way, new bandwidth and servers, etc. So there might be some short term disruptions as this happens, but nothing scary. Just time to build new boxes and move services. Once the move is done I'll post some pictures of DEF CON World Domination Headquarters. It's never had it's own home.. it's always been the free loader on Black Hat!

As far as DEF CON goes I see the biggest problem being how to use the new hotel space. Where does the speaking go, the contests, etc. I want to have that plotted out in the next month, then we open the CFP and start planning up a storm.

This is sort of a long answer to a simple question, but I thought you should know some of the back story.

DT

[noid]

Actually they are seperate, other than DT being the captain of both ships. As far as concerns go about corporations and such, Blackhat from the beginning was always corporate. From its initial support by Secure Computing to its current range of sponsors, its always been a corporate thing. So in its current incarnation I dont see BH being any different next year than it is this year, other than theres now a big company behind DT that can handle all the tedium that has previously mired him down.

Defcon isnt affected by this. DT has always been pretty rabid about making sure that Defcon stays seperate from BH, and those of us that have remained loyal to him over the years remain so because he has kept that promise.

Personally I'm happy for him. He made some cash (although I cant seem to find any facts to back up the number posted in the /. article), and now gets to focus on building the conference out and making sure the content is where it needs to be at. As an added bonus when/if shit like CiscoGate occurs, theres now a nice army of lawyers to go off and deal with things.

[TheCotMan]

hopefully this will add the advantage of having CMP's army of corporate lawyers to protect BH/DC from future meddling from Cisco, ISS, or any other corporate bully.

Having a corporation and legal backing does not guarantee legal support to defend decisions.

Consider google. There was an issue with "gmail" as a name used by a german company, and then, there was issue with Apple when google provided a different interface. I seem to recall that google backed down in both cases, and continues to make concessions to laws in foreign countries instead of doing battle.

"Choose your battles wisely" seems to be at work, and legal battles are often costly.

[Grond]

Just to end this train of thought here, one simple thing to point out - Blackhat != Defcon. They are completely seperate entities and this will not have any effect on our debauchery... er... information sharing and community bonding.

They are not completely separate...they both have a common origin...but hopefully this will add the advantage of having CMP's army of corporate lawyers to protect BH/DC from future meddling from Cisco, ISS, or any other corporate bully.

[pr0zac0x2a]

Just to end this train of thought here, one simple thing to point out - Blackhat != Defcon. They are completely seperate entities and this will not have any effect on our debauchery... er... information sharing and community bonding.

The answer to the question I was questioning. Good news and happy feelings returning.

-zac

[octalpus]

Just to end this train of thought here, one simple thing to point out - Blackhat != Defcon. They are completely seperate entities and this will not have any effect on our debauchery... er... information sharing and community bonding.

[allentrace]

Im only suggesting that people should use critical thinking instead of jumping right on the Jeff Moss ass-kissing bandwagon that you appear to be driving.
Dont misunderstand, I have a lot of respect for Jeff Moss. We all owe him a lot.
As for big tobacco and poor people, I think you are in left field foul territory. :-)

My arguement had nothing to do with Jeff Moss instead I chose to take point with your concept of money being the root of all evil. I think people are the root of all evil not an object. And as for the ass kissing I do not know the man nor would I kiss his ass if I did.

[stringslayer]

Only poor people say that. Or those who also like to blame Big Tobacco. In layman's term people often like to blame something other than themselves for an evil or wrong when the choice to do right or wrong (subjective I know) is really in their own hands.

Im only suggesting that people should use critical thinking instead of jumping right on the Jeff Moss ass-kissing bandwagon that you appear to be driving.
Dont misunderstand, I have a lot of respect for Jeff Moss. We all owe him a lot.
As for big tobacco and poor people, I think you are in left field foul territory. :-)

[allentrace]

but money is the root of all evil

Only poor people say that. Or those who also like to blame Big Tobacco. In layman's term people often like to blame something other than themselves for an evil or wrong when the choice to do right or wrong (subjective I know) is really in their own hands.

[stringslayer]

In my experience, corporate overhead leads to corporate restrictions.
I would hate to see this happen to Blackhat and Defcon.
I doubt Jeff Moss would let this happen, but money is the root of all evil