First diesel-hydrogen engine

[skroo]

Can't believe I missed this for over a month...

(From http://www.abc.net.au/ra/innovations...s/s1499183.htm)

Researchers at the University of Tasmania have announced a
hydrogen-injection system with potential to cut diesel consumption by 80 per
cent.

TRANSCRIPT:

BLANCH : Engineers working on the project say it can increase power by 20
per cent and drastically reduce emissions. The innovation can be fitted to
existing diesel systems for as little as $AUD3,000 dollars. The emergent
hydrogen-diesel hybrid technology has attracted a visit to Tasmania by
Japan's Congeneration Centre, a research establishment with a charter to
find new energy sources.

[bascule]

Yeah, that was on /. awhile ago...

http://science.slashdot.org/article....tid=126&tid=14

Seems like a good idea so long as truckers have ready access to distilled water

[cindy]

Aparently, it works. No water needed here.

http://www.chechfi.ca/

[josh_b_010]

bio-diesel

Aparently, it works. No water needed here.

http://www.chechfi.ca/

have you ever heard of bio-diesel, you can make it out of cooking oil, if you have a diesel engine, or generator that runs off diesel, you should look into it.

[Ridirich]

have you ever heard of bio-diesel, you can make it out of cooking oil, if you have a diesel engine, or generator that runs off diesel, you should look into it.

Obviously you have not read the rest of the thread, smartass. Use your head for something more than a hatrack.

We discussed the biodiesel and it's applications in THIS THREAD.

They are NOW discussing the application of hydrogen added TO diesel, bio or otherwise.

and yeah, I think it's a great idea. Think on it. A truck, already using biodiesel, getting much better mileage and putting out much less emissions gets injected with hydrogen for an added boost to HP and a lowerage in emissions even more.

Keep a tank of it, roughly the size of an E cylinder(if you don't know what that is, next time you are transported to the hospital in an ambulance, look at the oxygen cylinder they use on you. That's a D cylinder. Double it's size.) for when it's cold and the engine has not had time to 'warm up'. When the engine is nice and hot, water(does not have to be distilled, as when you heat water, the hydrogen and oxygen split) could be poured into a container. The truck driver, of course, would be having to do this while pulled over and could obtain this water at any gas station. A gallon hold would be large enough I would think. He could always have an extra gallon on standby.

I wonder though. If the fumes given off are unused hydrogen and they meet the oxygen.....I wonder if there are 5000 trucks on a highway, would it rain just on that highway? If so, since there is the burning of diesel involved, would it be nasty diesel rain? Kind of like the skunky rain you get in a city that smells like sewage?

[bascule]

does not have to be distilled, as when you heat water, the hydrogen and oxygen split

When you heat water, it turns into steam. It does not stop being water.

Electrolysis is needed to split water into hydrogen and oxygen. Distilled water is needed so that no foreign particles (beyond the salt needed to make the water conduct electricity) don't corrode the electrodes used for electrolysis...

[Ridirich]

Well, I am allowed to be wrong occasionally. Heh.

[robman]

I don't think you would see rain from these things. Higways are long (yea stating the obvious) and even 5,000 trucks would have to be relatively close to show such a feat. I don't think hydrogen and oxygen combine that easily to form water. Hydrogen will quickly rise above the oxygen because it is less dense. Ever make a hydrogen soda bomb? If no, it's not really much of a bomb. Using electrolysis you convert water into hydrogen and oxygen in a container, a hole at the lower end lets out oxygen. (the oxygen is on the bottome because it is denser remember?)

But as you see, the oxygen and hydrogen did not quickly turn back into water. I am not yet a chemist, but I figure there is some other process needed to use hydrogen and oxygen to make water. For that, I think it is reasonable to assume that it would not rain. Another thing to notice is that not much hydrogen is being released. Even with 5,000 trucks. Not enough to form a cloud right above the highway. If this was true, you would see a black cloud along these highways in the current day. This would be due to the current emmisions of our burning fuel.

[Ridirich]

For some reason I was under the impression that superheating water in a closed environment made the particles split and that normal drinking water would work.

Then again I never was good at chemistry, anatomy was much easier.

[TheCotMan]

I originally was not going to comment about this, but since it came up again...

There is a so called "4th state of matter" (plasma) which occurs when you heat things to the point of ionization-- to the point where the individual atoms lose electrons. This breaks a majority of molecular bonds, breaking molecules to individual elemental atoms and prevents them from reforming and staying together very long if they do manage to form again.

This is not a reasonable consideration as an alternative to electrolysis for water. The cost of energy to start this reaction, devices to conain it, energy to cool the elements for "normal use" , etc. is higher than simple electrolysis of water with electrical current applied to water that include salts or other additives.

Some don't feel plasma is a 4th state; though there is a solid, liquid and gas state to water, there isn't really a "plasma" state to water.

As for getting Hydrogen and Oxygen to combine to make water, all that is needed is a proper container, proper ratio of elements, and "energy of activation." In lab projects, this is often done with a spark which is enough to cause an explosive effect that is harnessed to drive an engine.
Hydrogen is less massive than Oxygen, and tends to get pushed "up" when they are mixed in a container. However, this takes time. Even if this were a problem, the two gasses could be introduced and sparked quickly enough to ignite a mixture of gasses before any significant amount could separate into layers.

For Hydrogen-Oxygen engines, I am not worried much about the water vapor being pushed into the air to cause rain. I am more worried about settling of water vapor to the ground to cause roads to provide less friction to tires, and in cold climates, lead to increased ice build-up.

[Ridirich]

Thanks for the info cot. Nah, the rain thing was for shits and giggles..."I wonder if.." type of question. Yeah, I am worried about the black ice it would cause as well as the inability to start a vehicle in the winter months.

[robman]

Well one way to do that is to carry another tank with just regular gas in it. That's what the ethanol cars do. The gallon is used on cold days to start the engine. After a few minutes, the fuel is changed over.

[cycom]

As TheCotMan said. the seperation of O2 and H2 wouldn't be a huge issue given the time it would take for them to seperate, and even if it was, you could inject the H2 from the bottom of the cylinder and the O2 from the top and they would mix fairly readily. I think that you needn't be concerned about the produced water vapour exhaust. Cars today which use gasoline also produce water vapour as exhaust, as well as (idealy) CO2. The problem is that the fuel doesn't burn with 100% efficiency, which is where we get crap like CO (carbon monoxide) and other byproducts from fuel additives. This is also (I think) why we need catalytic converters, which react with some of the byproducts to give a 'cleaner' exhaust. even if the buildup were a problem, you could simply use a cooling system to condense the water partially before it becomes exhaust and store in the truck/car and then dump it at the fuel station as you refil on H2 and O2. You could even use a solar panel to split the water into H2 and whatever other component (you usually cannot simply get pure O2 out of a reaction like this, and you don't need it since you have the O2 of air) while you car sits in the bay. Your car will gas up while you sit and work! Lucky us!

On another note, boiling water has often been used as a method of purifying it by killing off bacteria, but in theory, you could also boil off all the ipurities that have a lower boiling point, then boil the water and collect the steam to take care of anything with a higher boiling point. For example, Alchohol evaporates at a lower temperature than water does, but something like lead or salt would remain behind after you boil water containting salt.

[Floydr47]

I speak from experience when I say that the average owner/operator is just barely scraping by after making his truck payments, fuel permits, insurance, registration and licenses (and paying off crooked cops). Hydrogen is 3 times the cost of diesel (according to the article) so the savings in MPG would be offset by the cost of burning hydrogen. I can just see truckers rushing out to buy a device that is going to increase their fuel costs for the next 5 years until hydrogen prices come down and diesel price go up enough to reach the "break even" point.