Feds Demand Google Search Records

[skroo]

Ok, perhaps the way I said it annoyed you, but I think that on most levels we agree. A single power (or any power) attempting to control the internet is ridiculous.

Believe me, you didn't annoy me. I'm just tired of hearing the same thing repeated over and over and over like it's gospel truth.

And yeah, I'm in agreement that any one body attempting to control the Internet is both counterproductive and futile. Hence my intense dislike of The UN Internet Governance Forum. Screw the UN in general, but if there's one thing that affects me directly I don't want them poking their noses into it's the Internet.

[crazyishone]

I think if a government or organization tried to control the internet, they'd end up with more crime, and an eventual failure.

Think Prohibition. Did it solve anything in the long run? No. Did it stop people from drinking? No. Was there a resulting crime rate? yes.

Everybody knows that history repeats itself.

[Thorn]

Thorn, thank you for clarifying that bit about there being a subpeona. (By the way, where in Vermont do you live? I used to live in Brattleboro.)
:::::::::

You're welcome.
I'm just outside of Burlington.

[ck3k]

This reminds me of a book I read years ago(I forget the title,) where while a single government was gradually achieving the position as -the- one world government they where arresting all possible internal threats and putting them in special prisons.

1984, by any chance?
think they just killed them.

In response to my earlier post, yes I feel -all- kiddies should not look at porn, I admit it could put them in the wrong frame of referance for the rest of life. Of course this brings up the whole how young is to young to know about that evil sex.

Then of course my little jab at religion, if you knew me personally it would be taken as a joke, I have a fondness for a bit of religious humor once in awhile. I of course do find the fact we have any referance to god on our money or any goverment document to be a clear violation of church and state, however this is not to be discuessed here.

...and to close with some on topic stuff, I am glad to see google sticking up for what they believe is right. If they eventually are made to give in so be it, at least they are fighting it. I am sure every company has gotten at least one ludicris request from the powers that be. I just don't want this all to be turned into 1984, which sadly it is spiraling towards. I think instead of looking at all these years of unrest/terrorism we look at how many years it worked without wiretaps, or logging of every keystroke. I can't say I feel any safer knowing the big brother is always listening.

[VAX_to_PBX]

No, it wasn't a George Orwell book, it was some old cyberpunk themed book written in the sixtys.

Back on topic though, I'd be suprised if the US Government, or to be more specific, Bush Administration, didn't get the logs! The Government is useing religion and money to keep protestors at bay instead of the drugs like LSD and heroin that where not efficient enouph back in the Vietnam erra. A few thousand negative remarks aren't gonna effect what the government does, and most Americans are to worried about there careers to start any proactive democracy. It's gonna take more people losing jobs in America to actually start waking America up from this consumerized coma we are all in and start making the Government and big buisness listen.

QUESTION: What would you do if the Government did get the logs and immediatly start imprisoning people by the hundreds? anything?

[crazyishone]

I don't even want to think about it. Having said that, I suppose I have to now. (Gotta love the human psyche).

Well, I think that I would probably either end up going to prison for some random search I don't even remember (That's just my luck)... Or if it became one of those apocolyptic scenarios nobody ever gets tired of talking about, I might do the whole "freedom fighter" thing. But honestly, thats so unlikely.

[GBHis]

I am what you guys seem to be calling a "script kiddie" of one single reason:
I'm minor.

Now, I don't watch porn myself, but if I somehow, someday wanted access to porn, I'm sure that I could get it without using google. (crackspider.net, e.t.c.).
So, if it ain't possible for the feds to prevent me find it, the question is:
Why google?
Why not put a filter on their own mix'es?
I think the answer is surveillance. (Can't spell it)
They don't give a fuck about porn. They want control. Why the hell did they want the pgp-keys for v. 6-7?
Control.

Do they want to "prevent terrorism"?
Is this a new step in their "war" against it?
We'll see...

I, too, find it offensive with naked children. And I swear to god, that if I ever see one of those sites, I'll do what I can to make my first DoS sufficient!!

The .porn domainname is a good idea. It will help me and my identify porn sites and avoid them. (Well, i like the boobs, but having a cock shot into your face is offending me very serious. :( )

Think about it and let my know!

For the freedom and privacy of the Public: Discuss!!
-GBHis

[theprez98]

I am what you guys seem to be calling a "script kiddie" of one single reason:
I'm minor.

The "kiddie" in "script kiddie" has nothing to do with age and everything to do with experience:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Script_kiddie

[Xodia]

For the freedom and privacy of the Public: Discuss!!
-GBHis

Ok, when I started the thread I wanted this to stay on the issue of privacy in general. Not politics as much. Its going to the right way for the most part, but make sure it stays focused.

Politics and Religion are not good bedfellows with this forum.

[theprez98]

Politics and Religion are not good bedfellows with this forum.

It's also an easy way to run afoul of the rules.

[Deviant Ollam]

just found out these follow-up details. (is anyone surprised that these facts weren't reported in the MSNBC article)...

Google's competitors, Microsoft and Yahoo Inc. have already complied with the Justice Department's request. Both Microsoft and Yahoo Inc. agreed to hand over the data because there was no "personal information involved" and complied on a "limited basis."

This is not the first time that Yahoo Inc. and Microsoft have readily complied with a government's demands. The Economist reported that the Chinese government requested and received from Yahoo Inc. the information needed to track down the identity of a Chinese internet user, Shi Tao. He was arrested in late 2004 and sentenced to ten years in prison on charges of revealing secrets by email. Microsoft shut down a blog on its MSN service earlier this month at the request of the Chinese government. The blog was hosted by a vocal Chinese dissident, Zhao Jing.

damn, i'm upset that SeaLand shut down their hosting. i look forward to the day when space travel is so cheap and easy that hosting companies start putting their rack systems on orbiting satellites, out of reach of any jurisdiction. (of course, by then our psychotic government will have fully militarized space and will just indescriminately blast anything out of the sky that irritates it.)

[Xodia]

This is not the first time that Yahoo Inc. and Microsoft have readily complied with a government's demands. The Economist reported that the Chinese government requested and received from Yahoo Inc. the information needed to track down the identity of a Chinese internet user, Shi Tao. He was arrested in late 2004 and sentenced to ten years in prison on charges of revealing secrets by email. Microsoft shut down a blog on its MSN service earlier this month at the request of the Chinese government. The blog was hosted by a vocal Chinese dissident, Zhao Jing.

That doesn't bother me nearly as much. When using information to track down a specific individual who is suspected of a crime in a very specific area I find it acceptable to demand records from search engines. Making a very general statement ("We need to find out who is searching for content harmful to minors") it is unacceptable.
As Ck3k said, alot of people would find religious sites harmful. For me to have any chance of supporting this they would have to nail down EXACTLY what they are looking for. Of course, that would eliminate their opportunity to spy on people. :)

[Deviant Ollam]

When using information to track down a specific individual who is suspected of a crime in a very specific area I find it acceptable to demand records from search engines.

i would agree if it was something like a matter of domestic terrorism and the authorities were trying to located someone who searched for "fertilizer bomb making" or something. the "crimes" in these chinese incidents, however, were merely ones of dissent and publishing against the state's will. i find it repugnant that search engines would have complied with this.

personally, i am unbelievably fed up with our corporations and our government taking the nation of china out for an ice cream cone every fucking afternoon simply because they're the largest emerging market on the horizon. yes, i understand that we want their citizens as conumers for our goods (and if we piss off the totalitarian overlords they'll erect artificial economic barriers) but i'd love to simply counter their stubbornness with the power of the marketplace. there is unbelievable demand for american (and western in general) culture and what we produce over there. if i were in control of this crazy ship called the united states i'd pull us out of the WTO, say to hell with phony-baloney rules and restrictions that were negotiated at the tip of a bayonet, and create a cabinet-level position... Secretary of Smuggling. we'd find hundreds of ways to get what we want into nations like china and still turn a profit. and if they get sick of missing out on tax revenues, etc... we smack them with a list of human rights abuses.

"clean up your act and we'll play by your trade rules" should be the name of the game. until then, your citizens get what they want, we get what we want, and your economy will scream and bleed to death on a world stage.

[Xodia]

personally, i am unbelievably fed up with our corporations and our government taking the nation of china out for an ice cream cone every fucking afternoon simply because they're the largest emerging market on the horizon. yes, i understand that we want their citizens as conumers for our goods (and if we piss off the totalitarian overlords they'll erect artificial economic barriers) but i'd love to simply counter their stubbornness with the power of the marketplace. there is unbelievable demand for american (and western in general) culture and what we produce over there. if i were in control of this crazy ship called the united states i'd pull us out of the WTO, say to hell with phony-baloney rules and restrictions that were negotiated at the tip of a bayonet, and create a cabinet-level position... Secretary of Smuggling. we'd find hundreds of ways to get what we want into nations like china and still turn a profit. and if they get sick of missing out on tax revenues, etc... we smack them with a list of human rights abuses.

I totally agree. Still though, China was following one crime (stupid or not) with a very defined cause. That makes it at least justified to some extent.

[grimnocturnal]

Thats Bush for you.

I agree whit GBHis on the opinion that like most governments (and for that anyone with power) the states want control and by finding out what we search for by ordering google to handover millions of searchs they are just going one step further towards crossing "the line"