at-con side game - Guess Your BAC

[DJ Jackalope]

Yes! Absolutely! Side game is on.

[Thorn]

I propose that we have deviant and Thorn have a guess-off. Get it wrong, take a drink. After a while, have each of them guess thier BAC. Repeat till sunrise.

Thanks, I'll pass. Marathon drinking was fun when I was younger, but nowadays I fear the hangover would just about kill me.

while i could feel that i was clearly intoxicated once i started reading .08, i didn't have the sensation of being impared. i actually understood how some people can say to themselves "ok, i've been drinking, but i'm cool to drive."

That's pretty standard. One thing to remember is that inhibitions drop as the BAC increases. So even though intellectually someone knows that they're intoxicated, the part of the brain that would normally start saying "I can't do [whatever]" has been turned off. Once the BAC starts hitting those levels they literally don't give a damn. This is why people do stange things when drunk, that they would never consider doing when sober. The inhibitions go out the window.

One need look no futher than Pool 2 for proof of this.

... and for a bit of really sad but educational fun, drink only one mild cocktail (or just 3/4 of one if you're really thin) and check out how it feels to be "drunk" with a .04 ... keeping in mind that some jurisdictions are considering making this the legal driving limit. a B.A.C. level so mild that it barely registers AT ALL within your nervous system is being considered as the level at which it's illegal to drive your ass home.

Part of this is that while you don't necessarily feel it or even show it, but even a little bit of alcohol in the bloodstream starts to throw off reaction time. There is a noticable and measurable difference starting in at about 0.04%. The Federal requirements for a US Commercial Driver's License (CDL) used to be that any driving incident where the BAC was 0.04% or higher would get the CDL suspended. I've been out of that end of things for a while, so I'm not sure if the requirements have changed; perhaps someone like Kree who drives professionally might know the current limit. Some of the Scandinavian countries used to have a BAC limit of 0.05, although like a lot of things the UE may be standardizing this across the union.

[mfreeck]

honestly, how it "felt" at the legal driving limit of .08 was a bit of a shock. for those who don't know, .08 is really pretty boozed up. if you've had a glass of wine with dinner and don't feel any buzz at all, you're usually more than cool to drive (note - this is not legal advice) since .08 can pack a bit of a punch.

I think it depends on the person. Someone like converge may be completely hammered at .08 while a career alcoholic may not feel "drunk" until they are well over .1. That's the problem with picking a hard number, although it's a necessity.

will not leave until i have completely sobered up even if that means crashing on someone's couch for a few hours and slipping out quietly at 3:00 AM after everyone else has gone to bed)

Good for you, I appreciate this! My ex had a habit of "I'm fine to drive!" Sometimes he was, sometimes his judgement was too impaired to know that he wasn't qualified to look at a car.

the point at which i really felt impaired (the point where even an intoxicated state i was saying to myself loud and clear, "you shouldn't be in charge of anything that is mechanical at all right now") i was blowing around a .12 ~ .14

A family I know who lost a son to a drunk driver, the driver blew a .3, iirc. Career drunk.

if you know someone with a breathalyzer, check yourself out. you, too, may be surprised at how well you hold your liquor or how not drunk you think you are even when you're skirting legal lines.

If we bump into you at Defcon, I'll definitely take you up on this. It would be very interesting to know my levels.

[mfreeck]

So even though intellectually someone knows that they're intoxicated, the part of the brain that would normally start saying "I can't do [whatever]" has been turned off. Once the BAC starts hitting those levels they literally don't give a damn. This is why people do stange things when drunk, that they would never consider doing when sober. The inhibitions go out the window.

I'd be curious to know amongst the geek population here how different people approach the above problem. A lot of folks here do fall into the above, but because we've got many overanalytical folks, I wonder what methods people use to circumvent this. Deviant makes a rule that if he's had more than x drinks in x hours, he stays put. My rules say that I don't make any decisions while intoxicated. Once or twice I've had a situation in which I was *less* likely to do something stupid if I got drunk, while mourning a lost friendship/relationship. I might use the telephone or go over there if I thought I was in my "right" mind (if you're really grief stricken, you're not).

What rules or methods to people have to avoid serious stupidity while intoxicated?

[Thorn]

I think it depends on the person. Someone like converge may be completely hammered at .08 while a career alcoholic may not feel "drunk" until they are well over .1. That's the problem with picking a hard number, although it's a necessity.

It's more a subjective than objective problem. The hard numbers are backed by hard data. Everyone starts to display some reaction degradation over 0.04%. True alcoholics are just better at hiding the "normal drunk" behavior, but they cannot react better to things like hitting the brakes in time to avoid an accident.

A family I know who lost a son to a drunk driver, the driver blew a .3, iirc. Career drunk.

True alcoholics build up a tolerence. So much so that they will still be walking and talking at levels which a non-alcoholic will be unconcious or even approaching death. The highest BAC I ever saw was a local alky who blew 0.43%. She was falling every other step, but still conscious and (somewhat) mobile. 0.30% will make most people unconscious, and 0.50% is the lethal dose for most people.

What rules or methods to people have to avoid serious stupidity while intoxicated?

One drink limit if I'm driving, and no more than four drinks in two hours if I'm walking or a passenger.

[Deviant Ollam]

My rules say that I don't make any decisions while intoxicated.

heh, i'm not nearly that responsible. while i hold fast to my own "no driving" rules, pretty much everything else winds up being in play.

i stay pretty safe simply because it's as if my inhibitions and i have a sort of contract... "we'll keep you from doing anything exceedingly unsafe right up until the moment that your arms and legs take over for us. when we tag out, they'll takeover and simply prevent you from doing anything at all."

the two or three times that i've been pretty hammered and in the company of trashy women (no offense meant with that somewhat cheuvanistic comment... but suffice it to say these were all people whom i probably wouldn't have slept with sober, and most certainly not without protection) fate has had a way of stepping in, resulting in one or both of us passing out before anything too foolish was accomplished. (one time i passed out, another time we both passed out, and on the third occasion the girl got sick... then i made a half-hearted attempt at cleaning it... then i passed out)

but driving, yeah... that's a hard and fast rule. at least as far as my own choices are concerned. where i get a lot more fuzzy tends to be with preventing friends from driving when they've had a few. there have been occasions when people hanging out at our place are unequivocally plowed... we've been forceful at those times and this plus the fact that our couches are very comfy has resulted in a few bleary-eyed people departing at sunrise. however, there have been a fair number of evenings when someone has just stopped by for a little while... they have a few drinks (sometimes from my bar, sometimes they've brought their own liquor that they're taking to some other party) and then announce that they're leaving a couple hours later. this can become an awkward moment... because i haven't had the breathalyzer in the past, there was no hard way of knowing exactly how sober they were. i tend to be very adamant about adults making and living with their own decisions... but it pains me when people have refused my offer of hospitality for just one extra hour.

i realize that we're straying a bit from the original topic of the "guess your B.A.C." at-con game, but this is a rather important area of life. how do other people handle situations like this? at what level of "likely" intoxication do you jeapordize the serenity and happiness of relationships with your friends by denying them the freedom to conduct their own affairs? (by denying them the right to drive at all)

i am aware that the law can penalize homeowners whose guests consumer beverages and then drive. i also realize that the law recognizes some gray areas concerning whether the alcohol was in the house or brought by the driver, whether it was served to them or if they were helping themself, etc. still... it's an interesting topic and one that generates a lot of difference of opinion.

for the most part, my circle of friends has solved the problem by enjoying each other's company and hating the bar scene... we just pick a house where everyone will be getting together (typically mine since people consider it a refuge of seclusion, being way outside the city) and then we all stay put for the whole evening. it's a pity that there aren't easier ways to socialize without a vehicle being involved unless you live right in the heart of an urban area.

[mfreeck]

True alcoholics are just better at hiding the "normal drunk" behavior, but they cannot react better to things like hitting the brakes in time to avoid an accident.

True alcoholics build up a tolerence. So much so that they will still be walking and talking at levels which a non-alcoholic will be unconcious or even approaching death.

Ah. I thought that because alcoholics developed a tolerance, they did not experience the onset of typical symptoms such as lack of coordination and delayed reflexes until they had reached a higher BAC.

The highest BAC I ever saw was a local alky who blew 0.43%. She was falling every other step, but still conscious and (somewhat) mobile.

Isn't that higher than someone who is embalmed?

One drink limit if I'm driving, and no more than four drinks in two hours if I'm walking or a passenger.

Why this particular formula if you are not driving?

[mfreeck]

heh, i'm not nearly that responsible. while i hold fast to my own "no driving" rules, pretty much everything else winds up being in play.

[deviant and trashy women story]

It is pretty common for a person to get another person drunk (especially if person A is male and person B is female) and specifically stay a little less intoxicated themselves so as to not miss an opportunity. Hence, my rules. In fact, at certain times I extend them to the next morning as I've found that occasionally I have made a not-so-smart decision the next morning after having drank a tremendous amount the night before.

where i get a lot more fuzzy tends to be with preventing friends from driving when they've had a few.

Indeed. I am particularly concerned about this and that's one of the reasons I haven't had people over to my house to drink. I can't chauffer them home and I know they would want to drive home and not stay. That and the fact I have no social skills to lure people over here with. ;)

i haven't had the breathalyzer in the past, there was no hard way of knowing exactly how sober they were.

That is really cool. Now you have the ability to say "yeah, I know you're fine, but I wouldn't want you to get a ticket with your .12 BAC, why don't you play a video game with me?" Then it's not an argument of whether they are "drunk" or not, but whether they are legally liable or not. Some people can't stand being called drunk, even when they are trying to eat a piece of cheese off of some girl's asscheeks.

at what level of "likely" intoxication do you jeapordize the serenity and happiness of relationships with your friends by denying them the freedom to conduct their own affairs? (by denying them the right to drive at all)

I knew someone who threw parties and would frequently go out and pull a distributer cap from a person's car until they were sober enough.

[Thorn]

Isn't that higher than someone who is embalmed?

Just about!

Why this particular formula if you are not driving?

It's my comfort level more than anything. It's enough booze that I'm relaxed, but I don't lose control or have to deal with a hangover in the morning.

[Nikita]

When I drink, thankfully the bar is two blocks away, I walk. Always walk, I don't take the risk and i would feel pretty dumb getting pulled over or hitting something 2 blocks from home.

at what level of "likely" intoxication do you jeapordize the serenity and happiness of relationships with your friends by denying them the freedom to conduct their own affairs? (by denying them the right to drive at all)

If i *Notice* then your a$$ ain't going NOWHERE!

Plainly put, I don't care about your freedoms! I will risk my friendship and a blackeye if my friends life is in danger or that of any innocent bystanders. I dont want death or jail time to hang over the memories of a once good evening. All of our friends come to the same bar fridays and or saturday nights. Sometimes We don't even go out with them and after they leave the bar they know to walk over here, we have 3 couches. I have disconnected battaries ( the best method actually ) taken keys and plenty other things! my feelings are if you have had a few drinks, stay awhile, drink some water, hang out. It's better than going to jail or killing someone. Being a girl, it's easier for me to talk others out of driving by a simple means of distraction. But if i think you have had too much, my minds made up and i don't care if you hate me afterwards, you meant enough for me to stop you, better happier without me than not at all.
On a side note:
Could someone please tell me what iirc means? Seen it a few times, that is driving me nuts. we should have a drunk face icon.

[Deviant Ollam]

If i *Notice* then your a$$ ain't going NOWHERE! Plainly put, I don't care about your freedoms!

that can be a bit of a dangerous way to frame the issue, i feel. while you may be right in your desire to protect people (not just the "possibly drunk" driver but also others) the question becomes "how do you know the person shouldn't be driving?"

unless you have a hard and fast method of measuring their B.A.C. the situation is hardly clear cut. recall, we're talking specifically about people who aren't totally polished and stumbling, but rather walking, talking, and aparently borderline. at such a point, your right and your power to make the determination is questionable. (particularly if you, yourself, have also been drinking... a point which we haven't added to the equasion until now)

i feel it's risky to lay down hard and fast rules concerning "i won't let you go anywhere" over something as nebulous as a blood alcohol level. the slippery slope argument can be made to extend from there (not easily, but hear me out). what if a person is highly upset or emotionally unstable? say they just lost a loved one or broke up from a long relationship, they are at your place, have tears streaming down their face, and are crying so much that they are shuddering and sometimes having trouble catching their breath. do friends have a right to prevent them from exercising their freedom as individuals then? is it right to prevent them from driving somewhere? what about preventing them from heading down to a bar where they might pickup some sleazebag and make another bad life decision?

to me, being a good friend means doing all you can to convince a person that they aren't thinking clearly and should take a mental step back... but physical acts of intervention get a lot harder for me to accept... particularly if no hard, measurable data is involved.

But if i think you have had too much, my minds made up and i don't care if you hate me afterwards, you meant enough for me to stop you, better happier without me than not at all.

you clearly care a great deal for your friends and they are lucky to have someone as kind and caring as you in their life. however... there is a point, in this as in all things, when lines are blurred and the "rightness" of such action is questionable. how far does the logic extend? what if a person who is a total butterfingers wants to own a gun? what if someone with poor coordination announces they're shopping for a motorcycle? how do we weigh potential harm against immediate restriction of freedoms?

not an easy question.

Could someone please tell me what iirc means? Seen it a few times, that is driving me nuts.

if i memory serves me, IIRC means "if i recall correctly"