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recommendations for good door lock?

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  • Deviant Ollam
    replied
    Re: recommendations for good door lock?

    Originally posted by bascule
    I just want something bump key proof ... his opinion was they work great against crappy Kwiksets, but you can make a bump key for a sidebar lock too
    yes and no. it depends entirely on the type of sidebar lock you're talking about. the sidebar mechanism is just an additional means of preventing rotation of the plug...


    these can be engaged with a wide variety of authentication/unlocking mechanisms such as lifting finger pins, sliders, etc. medeco's famous axial pin rotation is another method of engaging a sidebar. (caution: above links are animated GIF images hosted on a slow connection)

    the only time you're going to successfully bump a sidebar mechanism would be if it relys upon something like lifting finger pins... something engaged by the key blade which simply raises upward. (and which it is difficult to "over lift")

    something like an Assa V10 lock can be bumped open (and even then it's really, really hard) since the auxiliary pins are just lifting upward. however, locks that employ sliders are not bump-able since the sliders have to be lifted to a precise height... not just fired randomly upward with great force. similarly, medeco locks cannot be bumped with traditional methods since no amount of normal bump-key force will accurately rotate the bottom pins into alignment.

    the schlage primus series works with a mechanism for which i have yet to make an animation diagram. however, i will try to describe it. the primus uses an array of finger pins... but they rotate in addition to lifting. they do not rotate a great deal, but rotation does take place. almost any bump key is completely incapable of reliably delivering any sort of rotational force to a side pin.

    so, from what i know of the various models and manufacturers out there, i'd say something like 75% or more of all locks which employ a sidebar are as near to "completely bump proof" as you can get.

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  • renderman
    replied
    Re: recommendations for good door lock?

    Originally posted by theprez98
    The moment you walk into a house and realize its yours (not withstanding the fact that technically the mortgage company or bank actually owns the house) is a pretty cool moment. You realize that at least some of the many ideas you've had for security can now begin to come true. It takes a lot of time but slowly I am getting my house to the point I've always envisioned it.

    Not to mention the day you realize all your crazy ideas you've ever had of what you'd do with your own home can now be done :) I'm the only house on the block flying the jolly roger!

    Leave a comment:


  • theprez98
    replied
    Re: recommendations for good door lock?

    Originally posted by bascule
    Anyway... I own a house now... w00t! And I also fear my relatively secure deadbolt will prove useless when someone smashes open a window.
    The moment you walk into a house and realize its yours (not withstanding the fact that technically the mortgage company or bank actually owns the house) is a pretty cool moment. You realize that at least some of the many ideas you've had for security can now begin to come true. It takes a lot of time but slowly I am getting my house to the point I've always envisioned it.

    Leave a comment:


  • bascule
    replied
    Re: recommendations for good door lock?

    I ended up buying a Schlage Primus deadbolt. The guy at the lock store practically laughed at it though, and wanted to sell me a $200 deadbolt. He showed me the key it takes, and how you can try as hard as you want to bend the key and it won't. Uhh, cool, I guess. I just want something bump key proof, I say, and he says bump keys have been overplayed by the media. I wasn't aware of any mass media coverage of bump keys, but his opinion was they work great against crappy Kwiksets, but you can make a bump key for a sidebar lock too, it's just a little bit harder (read: A LOT harder)

    Anyway, he was actually a cool guy who helped me out a lot (I couldn't get the cylinder into the dead bolt assembly, for example, and he showed me I was being dumbtarded by not backing the set screws out far enough to allow the cylinder to screw in. Oops.

    In the end, I think I ended up with a relatively secure deadbolt for not too much money ($50 for the cylinder and deadbolt assembly).

    I haven't replaced the strike plate yet. The current one is ridiculous. It had two screws of different lengths. I tried to back the bottom one out, and it wouldn't come out. So I backed the top one out, and the strike plate fell off completely. Turns out the bottom screw was like 1/16" long, and barely penetrated the wood at all. The other screw was probably 1/8" long.

    The new deadbolt I bought had a two-piece strike plate with 3" screws. It's also much larger than my present strike plate, and I guess I need to chisel out the doorframe a bit to get it installed. I'm thinking of working on that this weekend.

    Anyway... I own a house now... w00t! And I also fear my relatively secure deadbolt will prove useless when someone smashes open a window.

    Oh, also, the guy at the lock store dealt almost exclusively in sidebar locks. I was surprised. He was pretty damn pissed off when I brought in a cylinder I bought off eBay for $20 though. "I could've sold you a high security deadbolt!"

    Eh, still, he was a cool guy. Didn't think much of Defcon when I tried to describe it to him. I could see it running through his mind... "Computer hackers... what do they know about locks?"

    Leave a comment:


  • INIT_6
    replied
    Re: recommendations for good door lock?

    Originally posted by audit
    Nothing like a pit bull to take care of the crackheads. Or my favorite, plenty of guns with all the locals knowing it. Our house has never been broken into and the local police say it's because I have more guns/ammo then they could ever imagine having in their department and the locals know it. EVERYONE from my 7yr old daughter to my wife knows how to shoot so that also goes in our favor.

    Our maybe it's just because I'm the drunken armed redneck, who knows.

    This isn't a real idea. Just think it would be funny.

    Go buy some crack. But it in a dime bag. Hook the dime bag to a string. When the grab the dime bag have it set off a 12 gauge shotgun blowing off there legs. There no more crackheads running around.

    Leave a comment:


  • renderman
    replied
    Re: recommendations for good door lock?

    The only reason I can see for having a bump proof lock (other than paranoia) is to cover-yer-ass with your insurance company. There have been cases where there was no evidence of forced entry, so therefore you must have left to door unlocked or been complicit in some way.

    It may be worth talking to your insurance company about payouts in the unlikely event of a bump key wielding thief.

    This goes in hand with what DT said. If they want in, make em work for it and leave some indication.

    Leave a comment:


  • Voltage Spike
    replied
    Re: recommendations for good door lock?

    Originally posted by renderman
    Just remember that the locks on you door jsut ahve to be slightly better than your neighboors :)
    Although a robber may believe that you wouldn't have the better protection unless you had something good to protect. More work but a bigger reward?

    On the other hand, I'm pretty sure hard-working thieves are likely to be an exception.

    Leave a comment:


  • The Dark Tangent
    replied
    Re: recommendations for good door lock?

    I see it as a two part problem:

    1) Keep them out - A good lock and supporting hardware sends the signal that you are security conscious. Who knows what other measures the owner has taken? The only option is to boot in the door, or spend an hour or two trying to pick the lock on your front porch.

    2) Tamper evident - If people can easily pick you lock when they want, it is hard for you to tell that someone has broken in unless they trash the joint. How about if they just steal one thing, bug your computer, plant evidence, etc. Your imagination runs wild. If they have to boot in your door, though, you have a good idea something is wrong.

    Sure, someone can always break in, but at least with a good set up you'll know it for sure.

    Leave a comment:


  • renderman
    replied
    Re: recommendations for good door lock?

    Originally posted by Deviant Ollam
    yes, yes, yes. absolutely. can't hammer this point home enough. while we all have a huge fucking blast when it comes to picking and bypassing locks (and, of course, this knowledge has value when you're protecting critical or sensetive areas like a server room, records room, etc) people should always keep part of the discussion focused on brute force attacks. these inelegant and brutal methods of entry (breaking windows, kicking in weak door jams, crowbars, etc) are waaaay more of a threat in the real world as far as street-level criminals and burglars are concerned. kudos to render for keeping focus on the real risks.
    Thanks!. This is more from experience than anything. The only reason I have high security locks is A) being friends with a locksmith has it's uses. B) I was considering a renter at one point and wanted to have some key control so I knew that they could'nt be copied.

    The mounting hardware is just as imporant, if not more so, than the type of cylinder. Case in point, the whole start of this thread was C0n & mfreeck's less-than-bright crook armed with a screwdriver or other such implement, not from picking.

    The actual bolt on my deadbolt has a free spinning rod in the middle of it. Someone tries to cut it and they hit the rod, they can't cut it if it just spins. The deadbolt housing has no flat surfaces (it slopes away from the door) and freely spins, so no crooks can get a pipewrench around it and yank the thing out. In between the halves of the deadbolt there is a metal 'shroud' that covers the inner working and cam of the lock so no-one can get a tool in behind the lock to activate things.

    Like I said above, get a good quality lock and some decent hardware and you'll be fine. Just remember that the locks on you door jsut ahve to be slightly better than your neighboors :)

    Leave a comment:


  • Deviant Ollam
    replied
    Re: recommendations for good door lock?

    Originally posted by renderman
    A size 9 boot and a weak strike plate is alot more effective. ... use long screws that go way into the stud, not those tiny things that come with it. This will keep out 99% of people. The remaining 1% may try to pick or bump the lock, but are more likely just just throw something through a window.
    yes, yes, yes. absolutely. can't hammer this point home enough. while we all have a huge fucking blast when it comes to picking and bypassing locks (and, of course, this knowledge has value when you're protecting critical or sensetive areas like a server room, records room, etc) people should always keep part of the discussion focused on brute force attacks. these inelegant and brutal methods of entry (breaking windows, kicking in weak door jams, crowbars, etc) are waaaay more of a threat in the real world as far as street-level criminals and burglars are concerned. kudos to render for keeping focus on the real risks.

    Leave a comment:


  • renderman
    replied
    Re: recommendations for good door lock?

    There's something to be said as well for replacing the locks anyways. Alot of real estate agents will give you a 'rekeying' voucher or coupon when you take posession. Depending on the age of the house, the locks are probobly worn and strike plates loose. This is more a threat than bumping. A size 9 boot and a weak strike plate is alot more effective.

    I'd spend my money on a high *quality* locks and hardware as well as a stronger strike plate (use long screws that go way into the stud, not those tiny things that come with it). This will keep out 99% of people. The remaining 1% may try to pick or bump the lock, but are more likely just just throw something through a window.

    Leave a comment:


  • Deviant Ollam
    replied
    Re: recommendations for good door lock?

    Originally posted by bascule
    I'm about to buy a new home, and this has me wondering about the door lock. Maybe I'm just paranoid, but I don't want something vulnerable to a bump key. Are there any relatively cheap (I dunno, $20 before shipping maybe) dead bolts that aren't vulnerable?
    No.

    sorry to be so abrupt with the bad news... but, no. essentially all standard pin tumbler locks (ones that do not incorporate any advanced features like sidebars, sliders, etc) are vulnerable to the bump attack. possibly the cheapest solution you'll find in terms of bump-proofing a door would be a Schlage Primus lock. (rotating finger pins which engage with a sidebar)

    i've seen schlage primus mortise cylinders (the small, contained lock cores that screw into existing deadbolt housings) for something like $35 - $40 at their cheapest. buying a full kit with a primus (either in the door lock or in a deadbolt) is likely to run you in the $80 range.

    the scorpion tends to be a little bit more than that, i think. and the crown jewel of lock hardware, medeco, can easily run you into the $100+ range. top end biaxial models (i think) are often over $150.*

    IANAL disclaimer - i'm not a locksmith, so don't quote me on any of those prices.

    Leave a comment:


  • renderman
    replied
    Re: recommendations for good door lock?

    Originally posted by bascule
    I'm about to buy a new home, and this has me wondering about the door lock. Maybe I'm just paranoid, but I don't want something vulnerable to a bump key. Are there any relatively cheap (I dunno, $20 before shipping maybe) dead bolts that aren't vulnerable?
    Don't goto home depot, just about everything there is crap. Goto a locksmith and ask. If they don't know about bumpkeys, goto another one.

    Your best bet it something with a side bar or a non pin tumbler lock (abus disk lock). I doubt though that you will find anything <$20. Mine were $30 for the cylinder alone + the cost of the deadbolt hardware (High security deadbolt, free floating mounting ring, etc)

    Leave a comment:


  • bascule
    replied
    Re: recommendations for good door lock?

    I'm about to buy a new home, and this has me wondering about the door lock. Maybe I'm just paranoid, but I don't want something vulnerable to a bump key. Are there any relatively cheap (I dunno, $20 before shipping maybe) dead bolts that aren't vulnerable?

    Leave a comment:


  • beakmyn
    replied
    Re: recommendations for good door lock?

    Originally posted by mfreeck
    After getting back from Defcon yesterday, converge and I went for a grocery run this morning. During the 4 hours while we were gone, someone tried to jimmy all the locks in our triplex. Fortunately, our cranksters are not very sophisticated, so they did not get in. However, the doorknob type lock is bent and stripped and needs to be replaced.

    We already have a deadbolt, but it'd be nice to have another decent lock as well. I am looking for recommendations that we can buy/install and won't cost a million bucks. The landlord is interested in this problem too, so he would probably split the cost with us, so it would cut costs if the solution was a *little* on the spendy side.

    Any advice (short of "get a deadbolt," which we already have) is welcomed. An argument could be made that we don't really need another lock because we already have a deadbolt, but I figure, the more locks, the better. I consider the deadbolt to be more of a backup if the first line of defense fails. Fortunately, the person didn't feel like smashing a window. Maybe because it was 2:00 in the afternoon.

    Thanks in advance!
    Not sure about the laws here but in NY state it's up the property owner to maintain a reasonably safe complex. That includes but is not limited to, lighting and sufficient locks on all units.

    Given that someone has already tried to break into your apartment one could with reasonable argument get the owner of the complex to pay for any needed upgrades to the security. I.E. new strike plates, dead bolts and other reinforcements as deemed necessary.

    Now, it's up to the landlord to pay for all of this keeping in mind that if you decide to buy a $100 lock that it may not hold up in court as being resonable, unless you Deviant and can easily argue the case and provide the judge with full color illustrations and a demonstration.


    What's reasonable? I would say deadbolts, 3.5" screws in the hinges and strike plates, perhaps even the steel plates that wrap around the door lock and/or deadbolt.


    If you were to buy your own locks you may have to provide your landlord with keys and definately keep the old locks so when you move out you can put them ones back in.

    Also, is the door a 2hr fire rated steel door? It may be required by code. It's definately stronger then the standard exterior door, if you don't care you can sometimes get a "scratch&Dent" door cheap (up to 75% off).

    Given that the thieves tried all the doors, making yours stand out with a "don't fsck with me" attitude may convince them to try the one next door.

    Leave a comment:

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