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  • #16
    Re: Hacking Meeting at my house

    There's no requirement to tell the truth to a suspect under any circumstances, or identify yourself as a LEO. The US Supreme Court cleared that years ago. If there are exceptions to that, they are localized to a given jurisdiction, but I've never heard of them.

    If someone is stupid enough to leave something in plain sight, make statements that implicate themselves or others in a crime, make statements against self interest, or to invite unknown people into an area where there is illegal conduct, and one of the people is a LEO, it's just too bad. Real career criminals (whether hookers or things far worse), usually know this stuff at least as well as the police, and don't bother with such foolishness. The ones who believe it and try it are amateurs.

    I'll even throw out another TV police myth: You don't have to have the so-called "Miranda Warning" at the time of arrest. In fact, most real cops and prosecutors consider it detrimental to doing at that point. Also, not everyone gets it, and it actually only has to be told to a suspect under very specific circumstances. There is a legal test that has to be met. If it isn't, then the cops are clear to avoid giving the warning. Most amateur criminals consider this to be a basis for a dismissal of charges, so much so that they say it regularly when arrested for things like DWI. Experienced LEOs just roll their eye and proceed with the booking. Really experienced LEOs let the arrestee yammer on and incriminate themselves.
    Thorn
    "If you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to be a horrible warning." - Catherine Aird

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    • #17
      Re: Hacking Meeting at my house

      Here in in Israel a LEO doesn't even have to be on duty to arrest you for a crime. (e.g. A MP detective was on his way to the base via bus, the bus had a restroom break at a restaurant and the detective went in and saw a deserter (recognized him by his mugshot and name-tag) and arrested him).
      Also LEOs have to identify them selfs only when detaining or arresting a person.
      If you invite people to your house anything you do during that time can be used against you in Court, with the people you invited as witnesses.
      I apologize for any English/grammar/spelling mistakes. (written) English isn't my native language.

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      • #18
        Re: Hacking Meeting at my house

        Opening scene: house where "hackers" have been invited to attend a party.

        White Escalade pulls up across from the house. A guy looking like a cross between a Marine and someone from Ultimate Fighter wearing a goth-like outfit, and steel-toed door kicking boots arrives at the door.

        *knock* *knock* (Door opens)
        New Guy: (low raspy monotone) "I am here for the hacker party."
        Person at the door: "Are you a hacker?"
        New Guy: "I am a hacking vampire. I've hacked the, um, Gibson, and wear inline skates on the weekend. I've also got certs like MCSE. I can't come in unless you invite me."
        Person: "Oh! You are leet! Come on in!"

        Maybe LEO are like Hollywood vampires:

        If you invite a LEO into your house, then they keep their magic powers of legally admissible evidence collection.
        However, they can keep their magic powers without invitation if they have a magic talisman of protection from 'allegation of illegal search and seisure' known as "search warrant"

        LEO are paid with tax money, and taxes are considered by some as the blood sucking government.

        LEO also train new LEO, so are LEO are "made" from other LEO?

        A wooden stake through the heart could kill a LEO. (So could silver bullets-- maybe they are werewolves too.)

        What about some sort of implication using applied racial stereotypes associating "the mob" with Italians and Italians with Garlic-- the natural enemy of a vampire?
        (Obviously, this doesn't work, since there are Italian Police, and not all "Mobsters" are Italians and there are some LEO that eat food with garlic and not all Italians or mobsters necessarily like garlic.)

        Ok. Maybe LEO are not vampires. What about werewolves? :-)
        Last edited by TheCotMan; March 9, 2007, 12:54.

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        • #19
          Re: Hacking Meeting at my house

          Originally posted by Deviant Ollam View Post

          seems rather silly, i'll admit... if it's true it makes me wonder why every call girl in the country doesn't merely have an opening -- and admittedly un-romantic -- ritual wherein they state plainly (perhaps in lawyer-prepared language) "are you currently working for or directly on the behalf or any law enforcement or government agency or are you here in any police capacity whatsoever?"

          i've never heard a hooker do that, though.
          (I am taken back at the thought of dear sweet gentlemanly deviant conversing with hooks. )

          Ive watched a lot of bad tv myself and I've seen a few documentaries on hookers. Hookers in NY, Hawaii and such. Most HBO Specials take care of that watching a train wreck boredom I get from time to time. Anyway, when the hooker propositions a john in all cases she asks him if he is a cop (useless inquiry ) and to prove it she asks him to touch her indecently before they make a deal. The theory according to them is if he is a cop then he cant touch her where her bathing suit covers. Then she names her price.

          I don't know if that applies only in certain cities, if make-believe or if it is policy. Similar to the one that the UCA can not consume drugs during a sting. ( assuming that still applies ) Cops can say pretty much anything they want to in order to nail your ass. Its the Defense's job to loophole out of it and the prosecutions job to loudly proclaim you are indeed an asshat no matter what. Personally I detest the I wouldn't have done it if i had known you were a cop excuse. Seriously, think about that. recockulas.

          If you invite people into your home you don't know you are basically saying I am going to take all my personal belongings and sense of privacy and camp it on the front lawn. There you sit and you have a pretty fair chance that if you light up a joint, shoot some smack or have sex with minors your neighbor is gonna call the cops. Not to mention your new friends may or may not firmly believe you are having a yard sale and free is the currency.

          I may be bitter as I have recently been stolen from after having company (neighbor) over that we met a few times and seemed trustworthy to have a few beers at home with. (obvious ganking) But regardless, no matter how much you may like a person or you think they are 1337 you can not make that your only deciding factor for taking the veil off your private affairs. Also, your guests may not be interested or want to be present to watch your "super-cyborg-pirate-ninja-monkey attack on Singapore servers", either as an accessory or a liability of PI. /rant
          "Haters, gonna hate"

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          • #20
            Re: Hacking Meeting at my house

            Originally posted by Tacitus View Post
            Along with that, the basis would seem to be, do you have the right to know that you are being questioned/searched/giving up search and seizure protections to a LEO vs non-LEO? This might touch on Miranda rights and when a LEO is considered to be "questioning" a subject
            No, there is no such "right to know that you are being questioned/searched/giving up search and seizure protections to a LEO".

            The rights that you have are exactly what theprez98 said: You have a right to keep silent, and you have a lawyer present during questioning. You must be warned of those rights, but only under specific circumstances.

            This touches on what I said in my previous post: The socalled "Miranda Warning" only has to be given under four circumstances that must be together:
            • A person has to be a suspect.
            • The questions must address the elements of the crime.
            • The person making the questions must be a LEO or acting as an agent for the police.
            • That person has to be in police custody.


            Things that are excluded by that test:
            Asking for identifying/demographic information such as name, age, address, etc.
            Asking general investigatory questions prior to an arrest (e.g. "What happened here?")
            Asking questions outside of police custody ("Custody" is usually within the confines of police station after the cops says "You are under arrest.")

            If the questioning doesn't fit those criteria, then no "Miranda" is required. For example, potential suspects that are free to leave the police station during questioning do not require a "Miranda", nor do suspects where the police have witnessed the crime, and don't intend to ask about the crime.

            Statements made under questioning when someone is not in custody, or aren't suspects for a crime (until the moment they say something implicating themselves) are excluded from "Miranda". Spontaneous statements to the police without questions are also excluded. e.g. Police roll up to a shooting, the victim's husband steps forward and states: "I shot the bitch, and I'm glad I did it!" Or stopped for speeding, and the cops ask "Why where you doing 75 in a 25 zone? Is there some emergency?" and the answer is "I just stabbed my husband and was trying to get away." Those statement are excluded.

            Suspects talking amongst themselves and saying something that is overheard by the cops? Excluded. Talking to someone that the suspect thinks isn't a cop (the old "cell-mate confession" trick) is another exclusion, especially when the questions aren't pointed to the elements of the crime.

            Statements that fall under the exclusions are admissible in court as evidence against the suspect.
            Thorn
            "If you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to be a horrible warning." - Catherine Aird

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            • #21
              Re: Hacking Meeting at my house

              Originally posted by Thorn View Post
              This touches on what I said in my previous post: The socalled "Miranda Warning" only has to be given under four circumstances that must be together:
              • A person has to be a suspect.
              • The questions must address the elements of the crime.
              • The person making the questions must be a LEO or acting as an agent for the police.
              • That person has to be in police custody.


              Things that are excluded by that test:
              Asking for identifying/demographic information such as name, age, address, etc.
              Asking general investigatory questions prior to an arrest (e.g. "What happened here?")
              Asking questions outside of police custody ("Custody" is usually within the confines of police station after the cops says "You are under arrest.")

              If the questioning doesn't fit those criteria, then no "Miranda" is required. For example, potential suspects that are free to leave the police station during questioning do not require a "Miranda", nor do suspects where the police have witnessed the crime, and don't intend to ask about the crime.


              Suspects talking amongst themselves and saying something that is overheard by the cops? Excluded. Talking to someone that the suspect thinks isn't a cop (the old "cell-mate confession" trick) is another exclusion, especially when the questions aren't pointed to the elements of the crime.
              The "cell-mate confession trick" seems to follow all 4 points of the Miranda test- person is a suspect in custody, talking to LEO or someone acting as agent for LEO being asked about elements of a crime.
              How is this still allowed? is it under the assumption that there has already been a miranda warning given that carries on during length of stay in the friendly confines of police custody?

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              • #22
                Re: Hacking Meeting at my house

                Originally posted by Tacitus View Post
                The "cell-mate confession trick" seems to follow all 4 points of the Miranda test- person is a suspect in custody, talking to LEO or someone acting as agent for LEO being asked about elements of a crime.
                How is this still allowed? is it under the assumption that there has already been a miranda warning given that carries on during length of stay in the friendly confines of police custody?
                It can be a tightrope to walk.

                First, the person may be in the state's custody, but they may not be in "police custody for the purposes of questioning under 'Miranda.'" Yes, that is one of those legal constructs that makes attorneys rich. Second, usually the "cell mate" is often told to asks things like general questions ("What are you in for?") and avoid specific questions about the crime ("Did you plan the murder?") Third, Miranda has usually been issued, and the suspect has already consulted with an attorney. If they ignore both the warning and the advice of that attorney, that's their problem. The warning doesn't expire per se.
                Thorn
                "If you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to be a horrible warning." - Catherine Aird

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                • #23
                  Re: Hacking Meeting at my house

                  In addition to what Thorn said, he doesn't have to talk to his cell mate or anybody else. He choses what to tell the cell mate and what not to, it's a pretty big loophole.
                  I apologize for any English/grammar/spelling mistakes. (written) English isn't my native language.

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                  • #24
                    Re: Hacking Meeting at my house

                    Originally posted by Thorn View Post
                    It can be a tightrope to walk.

                    First, the person may be in the state's custody, but they may not be in "police custody for the purposes of questioning under 'Miranda.'" Yes, that is one of those legal constructs that makes attorneys rich. Second, usually the "cell mate" is often told to asks things like general questions ("What are you in for?") and avoid specific questions about the crime ("Did you plan the murder?") Third, Miranda has usually been issued, and the suspect has already consulted with an attorney. If they ignore both the warning and the advice of that attorney, that's their problem. The warning doesn't expire per se.
                    And, I would assume... one's rights only exist as long as a defendant can afford an (good) attorney to defend them :)

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                    • #25
                      Re: Hacking Meeting at my house

                      Tatic's used to "out" undercover cops include, but are not limited to:

                      - Grouping a potental prostitue, cops are a little squimish in these situations
                      - Possession, when in small quantities, carries as a minor infraction, requiring other parties to consume as user, not buyer, forces cops to make a choice to use drugs (though some are authorized to do so in many situations) and may out their status as cop
                      - Asking new or in-the-know slang questions to person to identify them as a fake
                      - Requiring a story of person before trusting them, usually involving a known their party

                      EDIT: Not that I would know first hand about any of this
                      "Never Underestimate the Power of Stupid People in Large Groups"

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                      • #26
                        Re: Hacking Meeting at my house

                        Originally posted by Thorn View Post
                        potential suspects that are free to leave the police station during questioning do not require a "Miranda" ... Statements made under questioning when someone is not in custody, or aren't suspects for a crime (until the moment they say something implicating themselves) are excluded from "Miranda".
                        yeah, that's the sort of thing that gets everyone yelling at the TV set in our house when Law & Order marathons are on. We're huge fans of the show* but we often exclaim "why the hell are you talking to the cops?!?" whenever the "person of interest" just strolls down to the station, without a lawyer, and has a chat with detectives despite not being charged with a crime.

                        not to sound jaded or anything... but i was raised to never, under any circumstances, give people any information or details about your life (or the lives of those around you) to persons who can't legally compel you to talk.

                        if i were on that show, the request "would you come with us, sir? we need to ask you a few questions" would be met with a quizzical look and an inquiry along the lines of "what, is this bright sunlight going to somehow affect your hearing? we can speak right here where we're standing." not to mention the fact that i could never, ever imagine speaking to LEOs about anything while in their custody if there was no lawyer present.

                        that's why in our home we hate the very concept of the Kyra Sedgwick show "The Closer." we've never actually watched it (because her character's look, voice, and mannerisms would make me want to actually shoot the TV as opposed to merely shout at it) but from what we have gathered during the occasional commercial is that it's a show based around some detective's "unique one on one ability" to elicit confessions and other bullshit from a suspect during interrogation. in other words, it's an entire show whose premise is focusing on fucking stupid morons who open their goddamn mouths without a lawyer present. grrr.... gets me mad. my version of "the Closer" would be a program called "the Stonewaller" and it would just feature a guy who is always arrested, but then spends the whole hour in a holding cell or interrogation room simply repeating the phrase "i demand a lawyer" over and over and over, as various officers walk in, walk out, offer coffee, yell at him, etc etc. perhaps during sweeps season he could request a lawyer ten times in a row, then recite the bill of rights once, then request a lawyer another ten times... kind of like some sort of civil libertarian's rosary prayer.

                        of course, that wouldn't make for as compelling and dramatic a TV program as a folksy souther-accented ditzy woman doing a Columbo-esque routine of faux ignorance in order to dupe dimwits into spilling their guts.



                        * Due to our habitual viewing of the program on TNT we can practically summarize entire episodes before the first body is even discovered. you'll see two kids playing football and one overthrows a pass, as his buddy starts to trudge into some bushes one of us will proclaim something like "oh, man... this is the one where the alcoholic doctor is accused of spiking the drink of her ex-husband's young girlfriend when in fact it's the family's daughter who pushed her off the roof."

                        editorial note - disagree if you will, but i say that the Jerry Orbach / Benjamin Bratt years were the best, particularly seasons seven and eight, which featured Carey Lowell as the best ADA the show ever had. yeap, i was a huge fan of her Yin tempering the jaded and heartless Yang of Steven Hill (who was still more suited to the role than Dianne Wiest or Fred Thompson, although i have been big fans of their soft-spoken self-assurance and homespun off the cuff expressions, respectively). Angie Harmon sure was easy on the eyes but was further to the right than Antonin Scalia. Still, even the long-legged fascist was superior to many others... Jill Hennessy was often a big pile of spineless mush with no substance and Elisabeth Rohm can't act her way out of a paper bag.

                        but yeah, the cop partnership... hard to beat Orbach and Bratt. that duality of each man played so well into this partnership of contradictions, with the older and calmer streetwise man of the city whose damaged past haunts him as he uses his long time on the force to justify cutting 4th amendment corners... and the younger kid whose passions often lead to inappropriate confrontations with suspects even as his straight-arrow nature prevents him from ever overstepping a line or breaking proper procedure.

                        Jesse L. Martin made for a more believable and colorful pairing with Orbach (a pleasure to see two theater guys in TV roles, and the whole "i'm a hot-headed latino guy who struggles with my catholicism and family life" motif was rather played out before it even got started) but the partnership dynamic was just more dramatic with Bratt. and Dennis Farina... geez, don't get me started. that guy is such an asshole that half the time i'm now rooting for the criminals to either beat the rap or take a swing at him before the cuffs are secured... just because i hate his character's "i have a badge so that makes me a tough guy and i'll insult or intimidate whomever i want because i'm a big man" attitude.

                        heh, this whole footnote is totally off-topic but i have way too much energy despite it being pretty late and i needed something to do before going to bed.
                        "I'll admit I had an OiNK account and frequented it quite often… What made OiNK a great place was that it was like the world's greatest record store… iTunes kind of feels like Sam Goody to me. I don't feel cool when I go there. I'm tired of seeing John Mayer's face pop up. I feel like I'm being hustled when I visit there, and I don't think their product is that great. DRM, low bit rate, etc... OiNK it existed because it filled a void of what people want."
                        - Trent Reznor

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                        • #27
                          Re: Hacking Meeting at my house

                          It would appear that what started out as a totally stupid topic has evolved into a worthwhile discussion that is both interesting and informative. I can appreciate Thorn's comment as custody being a tight rope walk. A friend and I recently had a discussion about what constitutes custody. If a suspect is asked to come to the police station to answer some questions about a crime, wouldn't the suspect be in police custody even though he wasn't at the time he was asked to accompany the police to the station under arrest? I argued that the police have an obligation to inform the suspect that he does have the right to an attorney being present during any such questioning and he should be informed that he is a suspect. My friend differed in opinion, he believes that if a suspect voluntarily accompanies an officer to the police station then he is fair game and any warnings or other information pertaining to his status are unnecessary. Which gives law enforcement officers the hook, "If you have nothing to hide then you won't mind coming down to the station with us to help us clear a few things up, it will help us to eliminate you as a suspect..." I suggest that at the very moment that the police ask you to accompany them anywhere you may consider yourself as being in their custody.
                          I enjoy talking to myself...it's usually the only intelligent conversations I get to have.

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                          • #28
                            Re: Hacking Meeting at my house

                            Originally posted by Floydr47 View Post
                            wouldn't the suspect be in police custody even though he wasn't at the time he was asked to accompany the police to the station under arrest?
                            historically (and i'm certain jur1st can correct me if i'm wrong) the Court has applied the "reasonableness" doctrine. essentially, this asks (on a case-by-case basis) the question "would a reasonable person, put in that situation, believe themselves to be free to go?"

                            now, it is my displeasure to report that in recent decades the Court has a highly bizzare definition of what constitutes a reasonable person's state of mind. in the distant past, being in police "custody" wasn't just defined as a full, custodial arrest.. but a variety of times when either by force or show of authority officers restricted the an individual's freedom of movement. thus, if an officer flashed a badge and said "hold up for a moment... were you around this corner about a half hour ago? we're investigating a report of a robbery of this store" that could have been interpreted by the older Court (usually Warren Court if i recall correctly) as being temporarily in police "custody" and deserving of all the protections that this would entail.

                            nowadays, however, even an officer in full uniform with one hand on his holstered weapon and the other brandishing a pair of cuffs while saying, "answer my questions, goddamnit!" may not being interpreted by the court as having placed a person "in custody" since Scalia or Thomas would say "oh, please... any reasonable person would know that they were free to walk away."

                            times change, and so does the Court. and now that Roberts shot his wad on the very first case out of the gate we all know that his alleged commitment to freedom and liberty was purely window dressing. expect opinions of the judiciary to reflect this continuing trend. if the Court increasingly considers the behavior of a "reasonable" person to be stoic, tight-lipped, and non-cooperative... i suppose you might as well live up to that expectation.
                            "I'll admit I had an OiNK account and frequented it quite often… What made OiNK a great place was that it was like the world's greatest record store… iTunes kind of feels like Sam Goody to me. I don't feel cool when I go there. I'm tired of seeing John Mayer's face pop up. I feel like I'm being hustled when I visit there, and I don't think their product is that great. DRM, low bit rate, etc... OiNK it existed because it filled a void of what people want."
                            - Trent Reznor

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: Hacking Meeting at my house

                              Originally posted by hackajar View Post
                              Tatic's used to "out" undercover cops include, but are not limited to:

                              ...
                              Sorry, that's TV BS. If you tried any of that stuff, it wouldn't work.

                              Originally posted by Deviant Ollam View Post
                              yeah, that's the sort of thing that gets everyone yelling at the TV set in our house when Law & Order marathons are on.
                              Guys, don't get too hyped on TV, or expect that you can learn real police tactics (or anti-police tactics) from TV. You have to remember that TV shows are nothing more than a vehicle to sell you stuff, and that any appearance to what occurs in real life is entirely coincidental. TV shows by their very nature are distorting. A techniques that actually takes six weeks is done on a show in two minutes. A case that might take over a year to complete, from initial action to the court conclusion, is over in an hour. Some of the worst offenders are NYPD Blue, and the L&O and the CSI franchises. All are good story telling venues, but are horrid as to police procedure. L&O also has bad lawyering. However, in my mind the CSI group of shows is especially bad, as the have incredibly bad forensic science on top of bad police procedure.

                              One of my academy instructors (and later a chief of the largest city here) used to say that the only police show that gave a real indication of police work was "Barney Miller." He was pretty accurate in that statement.

                              Originally posted by Floydr47 View Post
                              ... I suggest that at the very moment that the police ask you to accompany them anywhere you may consider yourself as being in their custody.
                              Originally posted by Deviant Ollam View Post
                              historically (and i'm certain jur1st can correct me if i'm wrong) the Court has applied the "reasonableness" doctrine. essentially, this asks (on a case-by-case basis) the question "would a reasonable person, put in that situation, believe themselves to be free to go?". ..
                              In real life, cops will tell a suspect "You are free to leave", and that person really is free to leave; right up until they implicate themselves. Many times people may not realize this, or claim not to after the fact because they said something really stupid, like "I did it."

                              In real life, if a suspect says "I want a lawyer" then the questioning stops. Period. You might be surprised how many times , the suspect re-engages the conversation. Often times people feel a need to tell their side of a story. Also, you have to remember that the people who commit crimes are stupid. They were stupid enough to commit crimes in the first place. They often times think that they can outsmart the police during the questioning.

                              Finally, modern police interrogation training and techniques are now very psychologically orientated. The last 40 years or so since the Miranda and Escobar decisions have required the police to learn techniques that veer entirely away from anything that appears to be from the "rubber hose" methods. Now interrogations are much more psychologically aimed at to getting people to talk and admit the truth. Those techniques have made the police very astute as to what is going on in a person's head. In many ways, the whole Miranda/Escobar situation has made confessions much stronger, (i.e. more admissible) since they were not obtained via violence -which may elicit a worthless confession just to stop the violence-, but directly through knowing when people are lying and when they are telling the truth.
                              Thorn
                              "If you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to be a horrible warning." - Catherine Aird

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: Hacking Meeting at my house

                                Originally posted by Thorn View Post
                                Sorry, that's TV BS. If you tried any of that stuff, it wouldn't work.
                                Sheesh, you act as if you were a cop at one time.

                                I highly recommend that people do ride-alongs in your community. You'd probably be surprised at what you see, and it is a very eye-opening experience to see the daily routine of most LEOs. I've done ride-alongs all over the place, and am continually amazed at the crap police have to put up with on a daily basis. On top of that, they are routinely swamped with paperwork, court appearances, etc. It is not an easy job.
                                "\x74\x68\x65\x70\x72\x65\x7a\x39\x38";

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