black badge protocol

[cereal76]

Re: black badge protocol

Now that the thread has come pretty much full circle, what's the protocol when LV Metro confiscates your black badge, and the officer doesn't check it into evidence so you can get it back? Any chance of getting another one, or is that person doomed to pay for a badge every year (assuming they're allowed back into the Riv)?

[shrdlu]

Re: black badge protocol

Okay, I preface this with the important info that I have the crud mentioned in other threads (and it's making me more cranky than per usual).

They only cost $27 ea? Then I'm really not sympathetic. Every one sold covers the cost of 3 badges (yes yes I know there's a lot of other costs at DC, but we're just talking about the badges here). At some point the cost of running DC has been covered (one has to assume it's significantly less than the number of electronic badges made) and at that point its profit / eff donation / whatever. In the black, let's say.

Well, now, let me see. You'd like DT to assume the very high cost of INSURANCE, which certain little wankers guarantee he'll need, every year, not to mention the extra security staff at the hotel, and you'd really like to make sure that speakers don't get paid, or comp'd... I could go on, but I'll stop here.

If you want a cool badge, SHOW UP ON TIME. Get a friend to buy yours. Don't have a friend? Can't get there on time? Don't come. If you still show up, kwitcher bitchin. Clearly you haven't the faintest idea of how defcon's run, or what it takes to put on a show that size. I have a black badge, and I still paid for the other one. I figure it's a contribution towards the really excellent talks that show up at defcon, and nowhere else, or towards making sure that staff are taken care of.

Sure, DT's made his money on Blackhat, but that doesn't mean that defcon should become his private charity. Hey, look at it this way: You show up late, you wear the badge they give you, and you're GRATEFUL.

On that note, kudos to the staff for their handling of those who had a black badge, and still wanted a human one. Excellent method, and I think commendations are in order. TW, take a bow. Good work.

Russ can take a bow too, if he likes.

[bloofar]

Re: black badge protocol

I started with a paper badge, traded that one of the regular badges that had some burnt-out LEDs, traded that for a working badge, prototyped our hack on that, and then implemented the final version on a press badge that I managed to get despite not being press (nor seriously claiming to be. Favors were traded. No I don't want to talk about it.)

... and then my team won the badge hacking contest, having started with laminated paper badges.

Actually I came pretty close to getting one from somebody else, just didn't work out this year. But since I ended up doing other stuff it turned into a 'screw it' kinda thing.

Yes, it sucks that not everyone gets a cool badge -- but at $27 a pop, I can understand why DT doesn't want to end up with a few hundred of these things sitting in a box in his basement. My point is, though, that if you really want a good badge, and can't make it to register for whatever reason until they're gone, there's 6000+ people walking around with the badges you want. Find someone willing to swap with you. It's not that hard.

They only cost $27 ea? Then I'm really not sympathetic. Every one sold covers the cost of 3 badges (yes yes I know there's a lot of other costs at DC, but we're just talking about the badges here). At some point the cost of running DC has been covered (one has to assume it's significantly less than the number of electronic badges made) and at that point its profit / eff donation / whatever. In the black, let's say.

Even *if* there are a surplus of badges for admission, I can guarantee that the rest would have gotten sold on site. Seriously, many people would have bought a second or third badge (even if they sold for $50 to people who already had them, it's still making a profit). Auction the extras off to raise funds for EFF. Whatever.

In years past, how many extra badges were there, and what happened to them?

the electronic ones are even more special. A static, plastic badge, cool as it may be, has nothing on a mini scrolling LED sign.

If kingpin keeps designing the badges (which I truly hope he does) then there will never be a problem selling them.

(Now, a really slick solution would be to find a circuit board maker who can fab them on the fly, or with a few hours lead-time, and willing to do so on-site. A pre-order of 7K badges, with small batches of a few hundred as supplies start to diminish, would solve the problem. Whether such an outfit exists, though, or if the equipment to do so is portable enough, I am not sure.)

'Portable' is a funny word, esp in the context of a con.. people bring a lot of weird shit that people wouldn't generally consider portable. You could do it if you had a large truck and a forklift.

It all depends on how the boards are manufactured. The badges this year (from what I know; correct me if I'm wrong) are just 2 sided with SMC and vias. There are a number of ways to assemble such boards. The simplest method I know of would be:

1. Stamp / mill the boards in the shape you want, and cut out the species at the bottom.
2. Drill holes for vias
3. Punch vias into place
4. Secure board to table with clamps, line up template transparency
5. Squeegy conductive paste for circuit traces through transparency
6. Place and tack smc components
7. Run through reflow oven
8. Fix any errors by hand

There's a lot of different methods the boards could be made with. The boards at the con were definitely etched, but the squeegy method can work too. A reflow oven is typically a fairly large thing (the kind for continuous production would be 10+ feet long) but I've done it in a toaster oven (which obviously wouldn't keep up with the production numbers that would be required). However there are fridge-sized and tabletop ovens that wouldn't be continuous flow but would have enough space to bake a few dozen simultaneously.

Summary: It would be possible. They'd need a lot of space (couple of vendor spaces would do it) but it would be fantastic advertising for their company.

[HighWiz]

Re: black badge protocol

Blah, don't go to a claim ticket system. From what I saw, the system worked fine this year. I saw people turn their black badges in and pick them up.

And really, who the fuck cares if you can walk around with your black badge or not? I have mine, and don't feel the need to flaunt that shit like I'm an uber-leet haxor dude (even though the badge says it). Seriously, get over the fucking elitism of it all. The older I get the more I realize that it's all just stupid bullshit. And wow Bigezy, you were able to make a guy hang his head in shame, I guess that makes you feel manly or something, do you want a cookie?

I got an idea, if you don't want your name on "a list", then how bout you just pony up the money for DefCon. Honestly, it's such a small price to pay for a chance to hangout with your friends and have fun.

I brought my black badge this year, and it remained in the room the entire Con. I decided that paying 100 bucks wasn't too great a burden for all the enjoyment I would receive.

I guess at the end of the day, much of this boils down to entitlement. With that Black Badge you are entitled to free entry to con if you so choose. However, you're not entitled to decide the method. It's a luxury if TW or DT are willing to listen to your idea's of doing things differently.

I can be a real bitch, but god damn, some of you fuckers could give me a run for my money with your whining.

I have a great idea, maybe DT should just go back on the whole black badge thing and invalidate them all for free entrance to con. Then stop giving out black badges... People will still compete in contests, And those who actually want to goto defcon will pay. Sure there would be a lot of bitching at first, a few would stamp there feet like children and swear off defcon, but maybe it would solve the problem of entitlement. I'm sure it would make TW and Russr's job easier in not having to deal with black badges.

~ HighWiz

[russ]

Re: black badge protocol

Hang in there, TW. I think Reg worked like a charm this year.

uh.. ok, remind me next year when you come to REG.

As for names.. I took First name Last initial, not associated with handles\nicks.. just numbers so I was giving back the same badge given. That so bad? You got to get the regular human badge this year, previous years.. nothing. So is that so bad? Yes it is not the BEST way to do this... and I can and will work on making it better. Maybe I am still tired and cranky from working so hard to insure everyone enjoyed Defcon... that a general "fuck you" to defcon for this.. seems childish.

We can discuss this more next year at registration...

TW

[TechnoWeenie]

Re: black badge protocol

While I would agree with you that the process "worked" from your perspective. I disagree that this process should remain permanent. For the following reason: I busted my ass to get the black badge that I have, and during the one weekend that having this badge would really mean something. I have to surrender it to get into Defcon. What is the point? Shouldn't previous black badge winners be honored? If this werent true, why do we get in free for life?

I know that Defcon has to do something to keep from people using the badge over and over to get friends in. But the process that was used this year was totally a pile of steaming dog shit.

I had to give my real name and I had to show ID in order to get my badge back. What is the point of that? Defcon is supposed to be an anonymous conference. But, the people that have black badges need to leave thier real names at the door if they want to get in for free.

And the second shitty thing about this is that the one weekend where I can hang out with poeple that understand what a black badge means, I get shafted again.

Sure this is a great way for you to keep people in line. And it is probably perfect for you TW. It sucks for the black badge holder.

When you are making badges next year, how about making a special badge for past contest winners?

And a general FUCK YOU to defcon for making me give up my real name. I got a chance to see other peoples real names when you wrote mine on the list. I would think the liability of a list like that getting out would be extreme.

uh.. ok, remind me next year when you come to REG.

As for names.. I took First name Last initial, not associated with handles\nicks.. just numbers so I was giving back the same badge given. That so bad? You got to get the regular human badge this year, previous years.. nothing. So is that so bad? Yes it is not the BEST way to do this... and I can and will work on making it better. Maybe I am still tired and cranky from working so hard to insure everyone enjoyed Defcon... that a general "fuck you" to defcon for this.. seems childish.

We can discuss this more next year at registration...

TW

[rabbi]

Re: black badge protocol

It's not just that I'm salty over missing out on getting an electronic badge (got there Friday morning. Would have been there Thursday but I injured my back in a pretty unpleasant fashion and spent most of Thursday immobile and waiting to see the Dr -- wait, maybe i am salty ;)

Dude, I'm sympathetic to the back problems thing -- that's why I wound up getting to DEFCON registration too late to get anything but a paper badge, despite having been in Las Vegas since the day before Black hat (my talked was on Day 1). However, if you've got all these great ideas for badge hacks, why couldn't you figure out a way to get a normal badge? Social engineering is always the easiest part of any hack.

I started with a paper badge, traded that one of the regular badges that had some burnt-out LEDs, traded that for a working badge, prototyped our hack on that, and then implemented the final version on a press badge that I managed to get despite not being press (nor seriously claiming to be. Favors were traded. No I don't want to talk about it.)

... and then my team won the badge hacking contest, having started with laminated paper badges.

Yes, it sucks that not everyone gets a cool badge -- but at $27 a pop, I can understand why DT doesn't want to end up with a few hundred of these things sitting in a box in his basement. My point is, though, that if you really want a good badge, and can't make it to register for whatever reason until they're gone, there's 6000+ people walking around with the badges you want. Find someone willing to swap with you. It's not that hard.

(Now, a really slick solution would be to find a circuit board maker who can fab them on the fly, or with a few hours lead-time, and willing to do so on-site. A pre-order of 7K badges, with small batches of a few hundred as supplies start to diminish, would solve the problem. Whether such an outfit exists, though, or if the equipment to do so is portable enough, I am not sure.)

[LosT]

Re: black badge protocol

Why don't we just use a form of RFID...oh right...forget that...

LosT

[kallahar]

Re: black badge protocol

Maybe just a simple "claim ticket" would work. Get a bunch of tags, write pairs of numbers on them, #1 is attached to the badge, you keep #2. To retrieve the badge the two numbers have to match. Bad news if your chit gets stolen, or if someone forges one, but the odds of that are relatively low I think.

Next year I plan on putting a dog tag attached to my black badge that has all my contact info, just in case it gets left/misplaced/etc.

Kallahar

[bigezy]

Re: black badge protocol

[QUOTE=Deviant Ollam;89180]
being a bit harsh, aren't you? the organizers were responding to the requests made by the majority of black badge holders... we wanted a shot at getting a DC15 super-kickass badge before they ran out. my understanding is that the system that was put in place wasn't mandatory... you would have been free, would you not, to just walk around with your old black badge instead of a current style one.


see... this is where your argument goes a bit off the rails for me. the kind of friends i hang with at defcon don't care whether i'm wearing my black badge, my blue badge, my red one, etc. why not just ask for contest winners to get a t-shirt that says "i am super-leet and pwned a bunch of people at a defcon long ago, aren't i something? i deserve free drinks and scenewhores should line up to service me."

QUOTE]

I was told when I checked in that I would need to either pay for a badge or give up my black badge. I had to make a decision to trust TW or pay the 100 bucks. Using the black badge was not an option presented to me.

On the other thing. Overall it didn't matter to me that much either, except for times like what happened to Bozilla. Mentant, and myself at DC 14. We were watching some folks participating in the wireless contest. And the guy who was competing told us "If you think you can do better why don't you compete" Bobzilla held up his black badge, and the guy turned his head down and walked away.

You can not have moments like that with your badge locked in the back.


I am a realist. If I want to drink I have money. As far as getting laid, I am middle aged fat and ugly, no black piece of plastic is going to help me overcome any of those handicaps.

[LosT]

Re: black badge protocol

Except I have sentimental attachment to my black badges ... :)

LosT

[ck3k]

Re: black badge protocol

I think there is a valid point to the above discussion. I did have to show my id to turn in and retrieve my badge. I trust TW and the goons, however accidents do happen, and I would not want to have a list like that fall into the wrong hands. I don't care what badge I am wearing, some cases I would rather just blend in with the rest of the "humans" ;)

I mean, you could just generate a master list (using screennames/emails/gpg) and give us a fresh black badge every year :P

[Deviant Ollam]

Re: black badge protocol

I busted my ass to get the black badge that I have, and during the one weekend that having this badge would really mean something. I have to surrender it to get into Defcon. What is the point? Shouldn't previous black badge winners be honored? If this werent true, why do we get in free for life?

i think that being a black badge holder involves both honor and privilege. you get your "honor" if that's the reason you go for the contests when you are invited up on stage during the closing and get presented the black badge. from that point on, having the privilege to attend DefCon for free kicks serious ass in my book.

But the process that was used this year was totally a pile of steaming dog shit.

being a bit harsh, aren't you? the organizers were responding to the requests made by the majority of black badge holders... we wanted a shot at getting a DC15 super-kickass badge before they ran out. my understanding is that the system that was put in place wasn't mandatory... you would have been free, would you not, to just walk around with your old black badge instead of a current style one.

I had to give my real name and I had to show ID in order to get my badge back.

now that certainly is a pretty poor system, i think. i would suspect that many people here would disagree with that point and call for a revision in the future. something that involves simply an email address or perhaps some sort of claim ticket coupled with a passphrase would be far superior to compromising folks' identities.

the one weekend where I can hang out with poeple that understand what a black badge means, I get shafted again.

see... this is where your argument goes a bit off the rails for me. the kind of friends i hang with at defcon don't care whether i'm wearing my black badge, my blue badge, my red one, etc. why not just ask for contest winners to get a t-shirt that says "i am super-leet and pwned a bunch of people at a defcon long ago, aren't i something? i deserve free drinks and scenewhores should line up to service me."

I got a chance to see other peoples real names when you wrote mine on the list. I would think the liability of a list like that getting out would be extreme.

again, i'm 100% with you there. i think that this sort of management system was a terrible way to implement the "temporary badge swap" that i do actually like.

[bigezy]

Re: black badge protocol

Confirmed.. this is what I did. Worked rather well. 4 folks did not get back on time to Reg to pick up thier black badges. I have kept them, and contacted the two I had email information on, and posted here for the other two.

I believe we will continue this process. Worked.

TW

While I would agree with you that the process "worked" from your perspective. I disagree that this process should remain permanent. For the following reason: I busted my ass to get the black badge that I have, and during the one weekend that having this badge would really mean something. I have to surrender it to get into Defcon. What is the point? Shouldn't previous black badge winners be honored? If this werent true, why do we get in free for life?

I know that Defcon has to do something to keep from people using the badge over and over to get friends in. But the process that was used this year was totally a pile of steaming dog shit.

I had to give my real name and I had to show ID in order to get my badge back. What is the point of that? Defcon is supposed to be an anonymous conference. But, the people that have black badges need to leave thier real names at the door if they want to get in for free.

And the second shitty thing about this is that the one weekend where I can hang out with poeple that understand what a black badge means, I get shafted again.

Sure this is a great way for you to keep people in line. And it is probably perfect for you TW. It sucks for the black badge holder.

When you are making badges next year, how about making a special badge for past contest winners?

And a general FUCK YOU to defcon for making me give up my real name. I got a chance to see other peoples real names when you wrote mine on the list. I would think the liability of a list like that getting out would be extreme.

[bloofar]

Re: black badge protocol

Yes, it sucks for more than just you.

The costs of the badge are way up this year, and you will understand when you see them, but we also made a bunch more. The secret would be to run out and have no waste at the end.

Anyway, I ordered more badges this year! We can only wait and see what happens.

So has anybody looked at the percentage increase in attendance over the last, say, 8 years?

It seems that this has been a recurring problem. It's not just that I'm salty over missing out on getting an electronic badge (got there Friday morning. Would have been there Thursday but I injured my back in a pretty unpleasant fashion and spent most of Thursday immobile and waiting to see the Dr -- wait, maybe i am salty ;) ) but I know this happened last year and I know it happened at least once in the few years before that. In fact, in the last 5 years that I've been coming to DC, it seems that we have run out of the "good" badges more often than not.

Especially with this years badge, I think having a surplus would be a good thing. At the end of the con, auction them off to the people who have been there all weekend and donate the money to the EFF. I had a lot of cool hacks in mind for the badge (friend came over to visit Thursday night and brought one) and I would have been happy to have 2. [Scrolling Access Point finder, 2-way WiFi communicator using morse code for input using 2 of the pads in a paddle configuration, signal strength reader, etc]

What is the fear with ordering too many badges? DefCon seems to be growing at an exponential rate (for better or for worse). You occasionally see previous year's t-shirts for sale; why not previous years badges if it came to that (though i really doubt it would). Are we really that afraid of people buying them on ebay and becoming dc posers? It happens anyway. Check out this mess of instant poser-dom: http://cgi.ebay.com/Defcon-badge-Col...QQcmdZViewItem

*shrug*