Community Values, Split From [Memorable Quotes?]

[sk00t]

Re: Community Values, Split From [Memorable Quotes?]

I struggled on whether to respond to the public probing of orifices part of this thread, or the religion part of this thread.

In thinking about it, I think I feel the same about both.

In a nutshell, "do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law" (++ don't mess with other people's right to do the same). Oddly enough, this sounds a bit like the Beatitudes too, or the key tenets of just about any other religion worth the parchment it's inked on.

So, (a meme that's gaining momentum) do what you want at your DefCon, just don't mess with MY DefCon. MMM-KAY?

At the Alexis, I never had any interest in the pool 2 area and debauchery occuring there, specific events, or just in general. I drink just a little, don't like screaming over loud music, and wouldn't inflict the sight of my flaccid pasty flesh on anyone but my wife. Not a dig, just my inclination.

So, then, as now, I went and Did Other Things That Were Available For Me To Do, my personal favorite being inflicting long technical conversations on friends and the occasional stranger, somewhere where I can hear myself talk, with ashtrays and the occasional beer.

Nobody put their naughty bits in my face, I'm happy.

Nobody put their Jesus stuff in my face, I'm happy.

I have two daughters, and am about as much of a feminist as I can be while still having a penis, but Pool2Girl wasn't my daughter, so I'm fine.

I have my religious views, but no one from Jesus.net bothered me, so again, I'm fine.

[TheCotMan]

Re: Community Values, Split From [Memorable Quotes?]

People getting naked doesn't bother me.
People having sex doesn't bother me.
People prostituting their nakedness (or any other asset) as scenewhores at Defcon does bother me.

I equate people getting naked to increase popularity with people that lie about their skill-set to do the same.

I have three problems with things like Pool2 Girl:
1) The immediate attention provided to the person is positive, and encourages them to prostitute their actions for a short-term gain in popularity. At a conference where a majority of attendees have penises, and some percent of them have the social skills of a mental patient suffering bipolar disorder, but on heavy doses of Lithium, we have people observing, "what it takes to be 'accepted'," and pressure put on those that are clothed to do the same. This behavior from "Humans" provides us with entertainment and sets an example to others. For examples of this, see Television show, Jerry Springer, with people rewarded with cheering, and beads to perform certain actions. Could this be a contributing reason for a lower percentage of technically skilled women at Defcon?
This is not the same thing as strippers hired to come in and get naked. I have no problem with this either. They are not trying to get popularity through nakedness. They are trying to get paid with nakedness.
2) This is a hacker party. What does sex in public, or nakedness have to do with hacking? I could see how one might suggest NLP, Social Engineering, or Social Programming should be cited as reasons for trying to make people take off their clothes, but it sounds more like an excuse.
3) *Political and not included* If you really want to know what this is, ask me elsewhere.

[mouseling]

Re: Memorable Quotes?

More importantly, do you think she talks about that night, three years later, nearly as much as *we* do?

I think this is a *very* interesting question and one I've thought about a lot.

You see, Pool2girl was part of my introduction to defcon. I have to admit, when I first saw her, I cringed. I was embarrassed for her. And that bothered me. So, I tried to analyze my visceral reaction and I realized that my response to Pool2girl, says nothing at all about her and a great deal about me.

This repugnance, revulsion, disgust, whatever, that people feel about the incident is a result of them projecting their own secret shames onto her. We are all of us, for the most part, fenced in by someone else's ideas of what is acceptable behavior. And, also for the most part, our own actions are controlled by shame. By fear of exposure and ridicule. We cringe, because under other circumstances that could have been any of us, and then we deride or defame out of relief that it wasn't.

We do this, why? Because, some external dominating authority long ago decided for us how we *should* behave. Shame, guilt and embarrassment are the means used to control human behavior within a society. Those constraints were put into place a long time ago by parties that wanted to maintain power in the hands of a particular few - to insure succession of property. And, sadly most people help maintain the status quo, by ridiculing, (or worse) those who defy this authority.

Uninhibited nudity, offensive language, non-conforming dress, non-traditional gender roles, unrestrained sex, hell, even out of the mainstream interest in computers, all challenge the accepted social mores.

I submit, that we are all part of defcon, because we believe that those mores should be challenged.

Therefore, Pool2girl, where ever you are, I hope you feel no remorse and no shame. and if true, you are luckier than most.

[goathead]

Re: Community Values, Split From [Memorable Quotes?]

I remember returning from Con with my gf asking me about the pool2 photo event since the door to my room was 10' away. I did see a portion of the poor lapdance that led to the infamous pic.

Ive seen worse and much worse. It was noteworthy as being one of the largest memorable ripples in the pond. I sure didnt see anyone intervene to stop the scene.

Didn't shock me but I can admit the hand with the cigarette juxtaposed against the squid school of hands... yeah it was a classy pic.

I enjoy a spectacle as long as no one gets hurt or violated against thier wishes.

[HighWiz]

Re: Memorable Quotes?

I am with Deviant on this one. I wasn't there and have only seen the photos, but I didn't think this girl was repulsive. It seems that her actions have colored her repugnant in people's minds. More importantly, do you think she talks about that night, three years later, nearly as much as *we* do?

I'd like to agree with you, but you're wrong, so I'll agree with Deviant.

Who the hell cares what she did? I almost thought Pool 2 girl was a big joke, I wasn't aware that people actually care about it. Apparently gay orgies are acceptable buy not some finger of a woman? It's weird to see that double standard in freaking out over a girl getting finger, but not having any issue with some guy getting blown.

So I'll agree with Deviant here, but the day that I take any guidance from the likes of Roamer is the day that hell freezes over.

[mfreeck]

Re: Memorable Quotes?

I totally agree with that, but there are some people who just shouldn't be getting naked/probed in public. Pool 2 girl was one of those people.

ok, what disqualifies her? What standards does one have to meet to gain approval for being naked in public? Should she have been thinner? Less into fucking? taller? More blonde? More redhead? Do you have to be chaste to walk around naked? Should she have been more of the 'in' crowd? Am I qualified to be naked in public? Why or why not? And who establishes the criteria for "acceptable public nudity?"

As you can see, I think these standards are a bit silly and nearly impossible to set/come to a consensus on. Also, is it slutty when a female becomes naked in public? Is it also slutty of a male who becomes naked in public, or is he just riske (or a drunken tard?)

[Chris]

Re: Memorable Quotes?

see, i still don't see how people come to that conclusion. are there any photos anywhere featuring the rest of this girl? i didn't meet her (at least i think i didn't) but from what little the primary image of her reveals, she's not disgusting or disfigured. why is nakedness and fucking all of a sudden a sensitive issue in the public forum that is defcon?

I am with Deviant on this one. I wasn't there and have only seen the photos, but I didn't think this girl was repulsive. It seems that her actions have colored her repugnant in people's minds. More importantly, do you think she talks about that night, three years later, nearly as much as *we* do?

[mouseling]

Re: Memorable Quotes?

How about everyone just worship at the Church of WiFi and be done with any debate over religion?

Uh, just what sort of sacrifices are the devout expected to offer?

[Deviant Ollam]

Re: Memorable Quotes?

I totally agree with that, but there are some people who just shouldn't be getting naked/probed in public. Pool 2 girl was one of those people.

see, i still don't see how people come to that conclusion. are there any photos anywhere featuring the rest of this girl? i didn't meet her (at least i think i didn't) but from what little the primary image of her reveals, she's not disgusting or disfigured. why is nakedness and fucking all of a sudden a sensitive issue in the public forum that is defcon?

[Thorn]

Re: Memorable Quotes?

How about everyone just worship at the Church of WiFi and be done with any debate over religion?

OK, but you've got to polish your "tent revival" routine.

[renderman]

Re: Memorable Quotes?

How about everyone just worship at the Church of WiFi and be done with any debate over religion?

[Schuyler]

Re: Memorable Quotes?

i've never seen any of the Christian hackers at any cons where they make a prominent appearance in category #2. all were very polite, quiet, and let people approach them as opposed to walking up to folks while holding bibles and reading the liturgy to anyone they saw.

And isn't that the point of allowing a group a vendor booth? It allows people to walk up to them?

[Xodia]

Re: Memorable Quotes?

heh, see... i don't totally understand this reaction. i'm quite the fan of people cutting loose and just living with severely reduced boundaries and inhibitions once in a while. defcon is a pretty perfect place for that, particularly for folks whose lives are stuffy and stultified. while i suspect that i wouldn't be very pleased if any of my girlfriends or people about whom i care deeply were the subject of a multiple-digit-pounding, i think that anyone's choice to do so (and to thus bring a little more casual sex, nakedness, and general debauchery to a public forum) is pretty alright.

I totally agree with that, but there are some people who just shouldn't be getting naked/probed in public. Pool 2 girl was one of those people.

[Deviant Ollam]

Re: Memorable Quotes?

since i hardly if ever miss an opportunity to speak my mind when a thread dances close to the politics and religion realm, i certainly won't sit idly now.

with religion, as with all matters concerning personal belief, choice, and taste, i think our community (like any enclave that is populated primarily by very passionate, intelligent, and self-reliant peoples) tends to draw a very invisible yet quite distinct line. each person has his or her own limit on how much they tend to tolerate differing views silently, and while this limit varies from person to person, in many ways it boils down to what i like to call "preaching versus proselytizing"

this can be as true for topics of religion as it can be for distro wars, vi/emacs fights, protocol use, etc etc etc. there is a very simple example i use when talking to religious people about the divide between preaching/testifying/witnessing and proselytizing/evangelizing/converting...

preaching - telling me about how wonderfully your faith and beliefs work for you
proselytizing - telling me about how wonderfully your faith and beliefs would work for me

preaching, in addition to being totally harmless, is free speech of the purest form and therefore something i defend with vigor. proselytizing, on the other hand, can border on harassment (or, to use HighWiz's words... "pimping") if done in certain ways and that is what crosses a line for many folks, i believe.

if something is free speech you can tune it out and it's not hurting anyone. if something is being repeatedly forced upon others it is almost harassment (i won't, however, get into my feelings about systems of belief being forced upon children or the mentally befuddled and how that can equate to near-abuse) and gets people rightly upset.

i've never seen any of the Christian hackers at any cons where they make a prominent appearance in category #2. all were very polite, quiet, and let people approach them as opposed to walking up to folks while holding bibles and reading the liturgy to anyone they saw.

[HighWiz]

Re: Memorable Quotes?

I would agree with you if you were right. But since you aren't, I won't.

Hey, that's exactly the response that people get from those who are trying to convert them. Congrats!