PUBLIC-NOTICES: Forum Changes/Fixes. Any Questions?

[TheCotMan]

Forum E-Mail tools seem to be fixed.

This means that users who never received an e-mail, or never responded to an e-mail, to validate their e-mail account will be required to validate their e-mail account. A mass e-mailing was sent out to all users with valid e-mail address but for which there was no record of account validation. That e-mail contains a URL that can be selected to validate your e-mail account.

This also means that users who forgot their password can have their password e-mailed to their validated e-mail account.

It also means that selection in the userCP like "email me when I get a PM" should actually "email you when you get a forum PM."

Problems? Send email to defconforums@gmail.com.

If you have changed e-mail addresses since then and have no way to receive e-mail at the address associated with the forum username, I won't help you. You MUST be able to receive e-mail at that address for me to help you.

[klepto]

What's up with vb 3.0.7? 3.0.9 is out, unless you guys are just putting a fake version heh.

[Thorn]

Thanks, CotMan! I'm getting those mail responses to subscribed threads that I haven't seen in six months.

[[Syntax]]

Hmm, I had inquired about the password recovery tool not working, but that was over a year ago, maybe almost 2.. is this the same problem that has just now been fixed?

Glad to see someone is on the ball.. although it may be barely rolling along..

[TheCotMan]

']Hmm, I had inquired about the password recovery tool not working, but that was over a year ago, maybe almost 2.. is this the same problem that has just now been fixed?

Glad to see someone is on the ball.. although it may be barely rolling along..

It was working on the server just before the move, and stopped shortly after the move. (July/Aug 2005)

It may have been broken before, but this fix was for the move-related break.

[converge]

mail had been broken for a long time.. I can't even remember approximately when or what events/circumstances may have been, somewhere back in the era of Blackwave.

[Ridirich]

What's up with this new site certificate? Every time I log in now, it pops up.

[TheCotMan]

What's up with this new site certificate? Every time I log in now, it pops up.

It is part of the process for troubleshooting the https/http problem (where once you log in through https, eventually, a link will be made available that is http and take you away from the ssl side of things.) We'd like to see https logins remain https for all generated links and http logins remain http for all generated links.

The https cert is coming up because images are loading over https instead of http.

For the next few hours, issues with https login -> http session "bugs" are being tested. There may be temporary periods of downtime with the forums.

For the next few hours, issues with https login -> http session "bugs" are being tested. There may be temporary periods of downtime with the forums.

We are still working on the issues for making login and continued sessions with https work well.
As of right now, browsers that seem to work fine with https/ssl include:
lynx, firefox, mozilla, galeon, konquerer, Safari, Opera OK on XP, Safari 1.31 on OS/X, and Firefox 1.0 on OS/X

However, MSIE does not yet work.

Support is being tested right now that includes MSIE as well as the others. This is still being tested. Don't expect https to be reliable until it all seems to work as we desire.

Updates:
"The purge is coming" :: Accounts not activated by e-mail with zero post count will be purged in about three weeks.
Zero Post accounts not used within 1 or 2 years with zero post count will be purged too. Users who desire these accounts can always re-register if they really want their usernames back.

I received a question about Custom Avatars:
They were broken. They have been fixed, but are presently disabled. Re-enabling them is being discussed. Expect a decision next week.

I receved a question about "Attachments."
Attachments were broken. Now they "work" but they are disabled on purpose. If you need to include a file, consider a link with a URL or custom URL with the forum markup language. (See the FAQ for how to use custom URL when posting.) If you need custom file, consider registering with geocities or some other "free" web hosting system, pushing files to that site, and then linking to the files they serve.

https/http issues. Thanks to Dark Tangent and the other mods for working to resolve this problem with fixes and testing to make it work.
Summary: http users should not be prompted for a certificate anymore. https users should be able to stay in https session but may have mixed content when loading. (some images may be http instead of https.)
One more change with https/ssl is being planned by Dark Tangent to make it even easier to use. More on that later.

[astcell]

With all these names we have here, how many are active? Can we search to see how many users have posted at least 3 posts a month for the past three months?

[TheCotMan]

With all these names we have here, how many are active? Can we search to see how many users have posted at least 3 posts a month for the past three months?

I have plans on to automate building of reports, but here are some numbers:

11060 users (Universal Set. Those below are subsets that may or may not share entities)
639 awaiting confirmation
312 banned
1946 user active over the last 3 months.
5245 user active within the last year
9161 users active within the past 2 years

In order to find out how many users have posted an average number of posts since they registered would probably require a double query/compound custom query or intermediate table creation.

Potential to cut users during purge:
Users with zero posts and no activity in the past 2 years: 1255
User without e-mail validation: 639
There is overlap between those two groups: 278 (Intersection)
|A| + |B| - |A (intersection) B| = total number of users at risk for deletion: 1616

[Added:]
Users active within the past 3 months and at least 3 posts: 428

[converge]

What will be interesting is when post counts drop due to /dev/null posts no longer counting as valid/productive posting. I would suspect that this would drop many of those users down to 3 or fewer posts, most likely 0. Depending on age it could lend to just how inactive the account is...

[TheCotMan]

Forums will be going down for maintenance on Wednesday (Oct 12, 2005) at around 10pm pacific time. Forums should be back up by midnight (though they may be down for much less time.)

Forums will be going down for maintenance on Wednesday (Oct 12, 2005) at around 10pm pacific time. Forums should be back up by midnight (though they may be down for much less time.)

This maintenance might be postponed. More later.

In other news, after discussion, mods chose to re-enable custom avatars for members.

Max sizes: 64x64 pixels or 20,000 bytes -- whichever comes first.

Where to change? UserCP, Edit Avatar.

[converge]

Interesting the topic has come up.. it just so happens, after over two or so years of searching, that I recovered some of my previously used avatar images from before the forums went poof in the days of the 'wave (along with 85% of my pgp keys, and other interesting artifacts).

[TheCotMan]

Maintenance planned for tonight has been postponed to some future date. We are missing something necessary for this scheduled maintenance.

[converge]

.. now.. where.. did we.. put .. that webserver anyways ...

dammit Jim, I'm a doctor, not an arp cache.

[TheCotMan]

Ok. I think we have the thing we were missing before. Maintenance tonight at 10pm. (Pacific Time)
Forums may be unavailable for up to 2 hours.

Maintenance appears to be complete.

What's up with vb 3.0.7? 3.0.9 is out, unless you guys are just putting a fake version heh.

Now, would we do something like that? We are running version 0.0.0 now. ;-)

Thanks, CotMan! I'm getting those mail responses to subscribed threads that I haven't seen in six months.
No problem man. I'm happy that we were able to get it fixed too.

What's up with this new site certificate? Every time I log in now, it pops up.
This should be fixed for non https (meaning http) users. https users still have to deal with it for now. More on this later.

.. now.. where.. did we.. put .. that webserver anyways ...
I don't know where it went, but we found it.

I think this means all forum-related items brought up in this thread have been addressed.

I would like to encourage any of you who find bugs, or problems with the forums that did not exist before this maintenance to report them here.

Also, please report any outstanding issues for things that worked before the forums were moved (~July 22) but no longer work.

Thanks!

[Ridirich]

Thanks Cot, yeah it is. Firefox was wigging out. It said DC forums were trying to hack me...I told it to bite me.

[TheCotMan]

Thanks Cot, yeah it is. Firefox was wigging out. It said DC forums were trying to hack me...I told it to bite me.

Was this after the upgrade? What was the error, and what version of FireFox, and what OS and version?
Can you duplicate the error? How about after Quitting and restarting the application?

Thanks

[allentrace]

Was this after the upgrade? What was the error, and what version of FireFox, and what OS and version?
Can you duplicate the error? How about after Quitting and restarting the application?

Thanks

I know it kept asking me If i trusted your certificate for several days then it stopped a few days ago. Microsoft cannot verify the authenticity of this sites....blah blah blah.

[Ridirich]

Exactly. It stopped a few days ago. You fixed it.

No, it was not before firefoxes update, so whatever the last version was.

The message that came up was about the cert of auth, and that it could not comfirm that the cert was true and someone may be trying to hack my pc.

[TheCotMan]

Excellent. Thanks to you two for the feedback, and information on this problem being fixed.

Please report forum bugs/problems here:

[TheCotMan]

For those who were wondering why the forums were unavailable for 40 hours:
It appears there is failure in the the drive interface and/or drives on the server being used to serve the forums.
This failure seems to have lead to an OS failure and filesystem corruption as well as database table loss and corruption.
An advanced restoration of content from pre-upgrade, post system failure, and post-upgrade dumps have been used to make this revision of the database.

A backup of the database as of this post will be made, but this problem is not resolved. Do not expect reliability and uptime until the problem that caused the corruption is diagnosed and resolved.

If you find post-restore bugs or problems, please post them here. I think most PM and posts are up-to-date.

Thanks

[CP99]

For those who were wondering why the forums were unavailable for 40 hours:
It appears there is failure in the the drive interface and/or drives on the server being used to serve the forums.
This failure seems to have lead to an OS failure and filesystem corruption as well as database table loss and corruption.
An advanced restoration of content from pre-upgrade, post system failure, and post-upgrade dumps have been used to make this revision of the database.

A backup of the database as of this post will be made, but this problem is not resolved. Do not expect reliability and uptime until the problem that caused the corruption is diagnosed and resolved.

If you find post-restore bugs or problems, please post them here. I think most PM and posts are up-to-date.

Thanks


Thanks cotman, I was wondering, now I know.:biggrin:

[converge]

ok.. I'll be sure not to post anything of value then

arg... once again my full explanation of life as we know it (c) and the undisclosed documents of completely understanding women (c) have been lost forever. dammit.. that is the last time I type those out.

[allentrace]

and the undisclosed documents of completely understanding women
I think I have the Cliftnotes of those somewhere.....hang on.:biggrin:

[Ridirich]

Well, I must admit, I was upset when the boards were down....but ya know...they move alot faster now. Did you prune?

Anyway, thanks guys.

[TheCotMan]

Well, I must admit, I was upset when the boards were down....but ya know...they move alot faster now. Did you prune?

No pruning. Several attempts were made to restore as much data as possible from a variety of sources. AFAIK, no threads, or PM were lost, and none were intentionally pruned.

The problematic storage appears to be the cause. A few hours after the reboot, these problems seemed to stop, and disk access is as fast as it was, before the problems. (It is working now, but not fixed.)

We're doing extra backups once every one or two days. (Late night users may see messages about this as the forums get closed for a few minutes.)

Other updates:
One bug reported with the forum maintenance. (It is being examined.)
Quick-Edit and Quick-Reply are now enabled. (Seem to work)
THE PURGE is coming in 10 days. (Users with unconfirmed e-mail, but registered before Oct 1 and zero post count will be purged. Users with zero post count and no activity since before Oct 1 2003 will be purged.)

[TheCotMan]

The forums have been down for about 70 hours due the same problem as before. I mentioned before that the problem was not fixed, and to not expect things to be reliable. The problem is believed to be a Kernel/Driver issue with the hardware, and a new kernel and fresh OS install has been completed.
We'll be conducting automated backups more frequently and testing things out. If you encounter problems with this new install, please post them here so they can be addressed.

Thanks!

[TheCotMan]

E-mail problems have been reported:
Email notices on thread subscription, and e-mail password reset and e-mail Pm notices are broken because email doesn't seem to leave the box.

[TheCotMan]

Mail should be fixed, and at least works for me.

[skroo]

OMGFORAMZ!#!$!

Well, glad to see we're back up - sort of. Thanks for the work you guys have been putting into this - it always sucks to have to admin a box that isn't yours, but it's definitely appreciated.

[TheCotMan]

OMGFORAMZ!#!$!

Well, glad to see we're back up - sort of.
Meaning that you have the plus of comments from people you know, but then again, you also have comments from people you know? (heh)

Thanks for the work you guys have been putting into this - it always sucks to have to admin a box that isn't yours, but it's definitely appreciated.

Oh, I am not the sysadmin. I'm trying to limit my focus to just the forums and the software that supports them. In this way, I did the backup and restore of the forums software and DB as well as some /home information for some users. I've also done some scripting for automation of forum backups, but the present sysadmin is the person in charge of the box and OS.

[cindy]

Where is the "Hall of Fame"? (or something like that).

[Voltage Spike]

Where is the "Hall of Fame"? (or something like that).

I believe you are referring to "Fucktard Hall", and it is still here (http://forum.defcon.org/forumdisplay.php?f=37). One of the moderators has moved it into a sub-category of "/dev/null".

PS: I find it strange that vB Code has special markup for linking to threads and posts but no such facility exists for forum links...

[Thorn]

Mail should be fixed, and at least works for me.
Yup, the email notification just worked for me with Voltage Spike's last response.

[TheCotMan]

Where is the "Hall of Fame"? (or something like that).
Fucktard Hall was recently moved into a subsection of /dev/null.

We have expanded /dev/null sub forums to better classify the kinds of problem posts that seem to occur all-to-often on the DefCon Forums. (Click on /dev/null to see the subforums of /dev/null)

This is Converge's idea, and is a really good one. He has been spending a lot of time, working through the existing /dev/null posts to classify them into the new categories. With something like 12000 messages, He still has a large number of messages to examine, but last I checked, we made it back to 2004.

As part of this process, any /dev/null posts (and /dev/null subforum posts) do not count towards a user's postcount. This is causing people with /dev/null posts to see their postcount drop as their posts are classified into the new categories.

These changes could potentially help us with a number of issues:
1) People who value high postcount won't be able to easily get more by flaming, posting no-value posts, asking questions without doing some research, etc.
2) Though postcount is still not a measure of skill or knowledge since there is a social and organizational aspect to the forums and thoughtful questions still "count, it will at least not "reward" and hopefully not encourage wasted content from people who value postcount.
3) There is emphasis of what common topics are not desirable through the names of the /dev/null subforums.

Like many things, we are trying something new. If it does not work, we can try something else. Whatever we do, we won't make things better by doing nothing.

[bascule]

...it always sucks to have to admin a box that isn't yours

Any box I didn't personally install is useless to me!

[TheCotMan]

PS: I find it strange that vB Code has special markup for linking to threads and posts but no such facility exists for forum links...
Is this a request to have that feature added? More important, would you use it? ;-) Let me know. I think it would be trivial to add it.

Yup, the email notification just worked for me with Voltage Spike's last response.
Thanks for the confirmation Thorn. :-)

Any box I didn't personally install is useless to me!
Heyyyy.. Did you install google boxen or are those useless to you? ]:>

...

Today is technically Oct 29. This means that THE PURGE of Forums accounts older than 2 years with zero posts and accounts with unconfirmed e-mail addresses and zero posts created on or before Sept 30, 2005 will be purged tomorrow (Oct 30.) If users want their old usernames back, they can reapply, on a first come first serve basis.

"End of line."

[Voltage Spike]

Is this a request to have that feature added? More important, would you use it? ;-)

I simply thought it odd that it wasn't a standard part of the vB code. As for adding it, I will merely comment that the above post was the first time I ever felt like linking to a forum since I've been here and the workaround (i.e., using a URL) was rather easy. When linking to posts or threads, though, I tend to use "post" and "thread" since it seems more appropriate.

[TheCotMan]

I simply thought it odd that it wasn't a standard part of the vB code. As for adding it, I will merely comment that the above post was the first time I ever felt like linking to a forum since I've been here and the workaround (i.e., using a URL) was rather easy. When linking to posts or threads, though, I tend to use "post" and "thread" since it seems more appropriate.

Heh-heh. Ok. Maybe someone else will use it. It is now added and in FAQ: vB Code (/misc.php?do=bbcode) with an example of how to link to the rules. (Commenting about the rules here is no indication they have been broken here, I just needed a sample/demo and the link here to the rules is a demo of the new "[ forum ]" tag.)

In other news: THE PURGE of all forum accounts with unvalidated e-mail addresses and accounts inactive for more than 2 years with a zero postcount is completed. A DB backup was conducted before THE PURGE and then once again right after it.

The first day the forums came back after the most recent restore there were brief interruptions in network service. This is only stated so that it is understood these were not OS issues, but networking and I received no report of them happeneing again.

Problems? Bugs? Let me know.

[astcell]

I think we ought to move fucktard hall to www.fucktardhall.org so that we can send employers/spouses/idiots right to that page to find their troubles rather than invite them to the rest of our board. Could that be done, maybe as a mirror for that one section?

[TheCotMan]

I think we ought to move fucktard hall to www.fucktardhall.org so that we can send employers/spouses/idiots right to that page to find their troubles rather than invite them to the rest of our board. Could that be done, maybe as a mirror for that one section?

Any forum title can exist as a URL. As an example, if someone is running a contest, and has their own forum they would rather use, we can have something that looks like a forum here actually be a link to another website.

Is this what you are looking for?

[TheCotMan]

A problem has been reported with new user registration. It seems with the move to the new OS Install, the image generation software is not working.

For now, image verification has been disabled until it can be fixed.

[astcell]

Any forum title can exist as a URL. As an example, if someone is running a contest, and has their own forum they would rather use, we can have something that looks like a forum here actually be a link to another website.

Is this what you are looking for?

Sure. Why not register the link and point it to the forum?

[TheCotMan]

Sure. Why not register the link and point it to the forum?

Heh-heh. Why don't you put it up for a vote? ]:>

Also, I can't find an owner for that domain. Do you mean
http://www.fucktardhalloffame.com/ ?

We'd need to get permission to move stuff over there.

[TheCotMan]

For now, image verification has been disabled until it can be fixed.

Image verification at registration is fixed, and has been re-enabled.

[TheCotMan]

If you find bugs, or want to report problems with the forums, just send e-mail to the address shown at the bottom of the forums.

This thread is being unstuck.

[che]

OMGFORAMZ!#!$!

Well, glad to see we're back up - sort of. Thanks for the work you guys have been putting into this - it always sucks to have to admin a box that isn't yours, but it's definitely appreciated.

I agree... major homebrew points to all that put in the effort to get things going again.. (Which reminds me.. I gotta get some ShmooBrew fermenting.. )

[TheCotMan]

The people that control the forums server have added some new restrictions that have broken a few things, and we know about the following:

* Certain circumstance where a less-than and greater-than character are included in a post or field
* Uploading a "custom avatar"

Wlll both generate an error called "Not Acceptable"

If you find this "Not Acceptable" error and you were not trying to upload a custom Avatar, or using less-than and greater-than characters, please let us know in this thread-- the sooner the better.

Here is some sample text for the error page you may see:

Not Acceptable

Content provided is not acceptable to the forum software. This could be caused by one of many things:

* A bug in the forum software
* A violation based on submitted content
* A Misconfiguration in the server

If you believe this error to be a bug, please contact us at defconforums@gmail.com with a copy of the URL, the text you were posting, the IP address you were using, and the time plus the timezone for log file time resolution. Email messages without all of this information may be ignored.

If you would like to try again, select BACK in your web browser software, modify your content and try again."

Sorry for the problems this creates. We are looking into this. Your feedback on where this error occurs will help us to include those problems in the group of things under consideration for repair.

[TheCotMan]

Looks like the forums will be going down for some scheduled maintenance "real soon." Maybe Saturday, or Sunday, Monday at the latest. I don't expect them being down for more than 1 hour, and probably much less than that.

If you try to log on and see a message about "Scheduled Maintenance" that is probably this expected change.

In other news, there is experimentation with enforcing limits, and if you get any error reports as described above in spaces other than the "less than" and "greater than" and "image uploading" thing, please post the problem leading up to the error, here.

Thanks!

[TheCotMan]

Looks like the forums will be going down for some scheduled maintenance "real soon." Maybe Saturday, or Sunday

Sunday. 5:00pm Pacific time. Expected downtime, 1 hour-- probably less.

[Edit: Added]
Yeah, back up just before 6pm.

[TheCotMan]

Thanks to Converge for the sorting of /dev/null posts. This change includes an alteration of postcounts, for each post in each categorized thread moved to a /dev/null forums:

* Every post in every thread moved to /dev/null is SUBTRACTED from a user's postcount.

* Any post made in a /dev/null forum thread, does not increase a user's postcount.

This is not an endorsement for any implicit value in higher postcounts, but it is meant to deter people that value high postcount from posting non-positive content, or wallowing in /dev/null threads.

We can also see what kinds of violations are happening by frequency to better plan for the future.

[TheCotMan]

Another user purge is coming soon. Accounts to be reaped:

* User accounts who have had no activity since September 30, 2003 and now have zero posts as a result of their count being reduced to zero with the new policy on not allowing non-positive content forum posts to count towards postcounts.

* All accounts with zero postcount and unconfirmed e-mail from November 30, 2005 and earlier.

When is this purge? On or after December 15, 2005.

[converge]

...and the count? ...

[TheCotMan]

...and the count? ...

71-74 in the first group.
139 in the seconds group (though this number is expected to grow until November 30, 2005)

[Deviant Ollam]

i can't even begin to imagine the effort that must go in to what you guys have been doing... the sorting through page after page of drivel posts in /dev/null, the organizing of accounts, the hours it must take.

you are all damn alright in my book, i'll say that for sure. we appreciate you so much, both for the large maintenance projects like this and for the general upkeep of the posts during day-to-day chatter.

i owe everyone on the forums staff a few rounds of drinks next time i'm out west. in fact, those of you at shmoo can start cashing in on my thank you liquor early.

[TheCotMan]

I don't do much here. I just twiddle my thumbs. Consider that converge spent many, many hours (more work than me) going through the /dev/null space to organize crapy posts.

With stats on problems, we can try new policies.

Like this change in policy:
NEW POLICY for new users:

A long talked about feature to restrict new users to lurking for a set period of time has been proposed many times.

Well, we are now going to test this.

Here is the new content in the welcome e-mail after a new user has confirmed their e-mail address:
(The item with the "*" may be removed if it causes problems)

---
For the next 7 days, your account is restricted and you are encouraged to lurk in order to understand the social rules and forum rules. As a "Lurking User" you now have access to a long history of posts not visible to non-registered users.

After 7 but less than 14 days, you are allowed: limited use of PM, reply to EXISTING threads (on topic), vote in existing polls, and upload a custom avatar.

After 14 but less than 21 days, you are allowed to start new threads, and set a custom description in your UserCP.

*After 21 days and some non-negative forum contributions, a slightly larger Forum PM MailBox

There are no other automated promotions.
---

It may take some time to put in the limits.

If something does not work and you can't use PM, send e-mail report of bug to defconforums@gmail.com

[TheCotMan]

Two items:
1) https issue fixed (again)
2) Trying something new with events/contests on the forums.

1) The issue on the forums where logging in with https, and then being pushed to http when clicking on "Archives", "New Posts", "Posting a reply" or "view last unread post in thread" has been fixed (again.)
It seems forum software for SSL detection changed with a recent upgrade, but now the problematic change has been found and a work-around has been added to the code.

2) We are trying something new for a few contest and event areas in the forums this year. We have created a new forum title for contest of event leaders/organizers called "Leader/Organizer."
First, "Leader/Organizers" are NOT moderators. There is a description for them in the FAQ too (http://forum.defcon.org/faq.php?faq=vb_read_and_post#faq_custom_vb_leaders _described).

This title is not a reward, nor is it automatically given to any contest or event leader/organizer. It is given to people who are leader/organizers of events or contests that are expected to to need a separate forum for their contest/event, who are active participants on the forums and trusted to abide by the forum rules. It is also temporary, and to stress again, is NOT a moderator title.

Also, if this becomes a problem, it may be cancelled. (The prupose is to make things easier for mods, and leaders/organizers. If it is too much work, it probably will go away.)

What can be done by people who are Leaders/Organizers? First, they only have elevated access in their area.
* Edit threads (title, post icon)
* Manage threads (stick, merge, split)
* Edit polls
* Open/Close threads

Leaders/Organizers can't ban/unban users or /dev/null threads-- these are things done by present moderators.

Our first example of "Leader/Organizer" is Kallahar in the DefCon Robots Contest. When you visit that forum, you should see Kallahar's name in the bottom right corner under "Leader/Organizer."

Newer contests or events probably won't even have their own forum and as a result, not have a forum "Leader/Organizer."

Not all contests or events will have their own forum, and not all contest/event forums will have forum "Leader/Organizers." Please don't ask to become a forum Event/Contest Leader/Organizer.

If you are running a contest/Event, but have your own forum that is not here on the defcon forums for discussion and you want discussion to take place there, please let me know.

[TheCotMan]

Latest changes:
We merged several groups into one (Misc) moved "Rules" to the top of that, and "/dev/null" to the bottom.

"Tech News" has been added and seeded. Please read the sticky before posting there.

"DefCon Archives" has been moved to the DefCon group.

The technology for adding a "Test" for new users to complete, does work, but it has been decided that we not use this at this time.

Coming "soon"
* An update to the Rules (different format to test, and an attempt to make them shorter -- less text to read)
* Klepto's suggestion to return to the old view with avatars in a left column may get tested for a few days to view feedback

[TheCotMan]

New Rules

The rules have been streamlined, to make them shorter. A new section to address the off-topic nature of Politics and Religion has been added.

We won't keep both formats.

We have two competing formats:
One is a collection of posts that allows linking to specific rules for mods to quote if they desire it.
Another is a flat-view that has been updated to be a bit shorter while adding a comment to "Off-Topic" content that includes Pol&Rel.

We'll see how they work out, and delete the one that is least favored.

[Asbestos]

I think the first one is a little better.
Also, the search link on the second points to 'http://search.php'. It looks like someone used a relative URL.

[converge]

I think the first one is a little better.
Also, the search link on the second points to 'http://search.php'. It looks like someone used a relative URL.Links fixed, thanks.

[TheCotMan]

Thanks converge for fixing that and asbestos for the report.

Klepto's suggestions to use the legacy vertical display instead of the newer horizontal display is now being tested. Feedback, positive or negative, is welcome, but the actual decision is up to the mods.

[Deviant Ollam]

Klepto's suggestion to return to the old view with avatars in a left column may get tested for a few days to view feedbackinitial reaction... i didn't like it. the new format was making the left column (the one containing the avatar and user info) an inconsistent width. i felt that the varying widths of the columns in each post made it hard to follow the conversation flow. this seems to have been fixed (almost immediately... way to go, uber-coders) things seem to be totally even in width now. maybe a change was just made, maybe i was just seeing things. if it stays consistent and even then i'm on board.

[Asbestos]

The new layout is awesome. I like it a lot. Only complaint is the lack of borders around the avatars, posts, etc. Could it be something more like the 'topic overview' when responding to a post?

Other than that, it's really nice.

[TheCotMan]

way to go, uber-coders
I don't do any coding around, here... all I do is move my mouse, select options, and occasionally touch a keyboard. O:-)

This interface is actually an older format that was coded as part of the software. All we did was to enable it.

Could it be something more like the 'topic overview' when responding to a post?
Would you explain this with more detail? I'm not quite understanding the request.

[Asbestos]

Let me take a picture because I'm not real good with explaining.
Image here. (http://img161.imageshack.us/my.php?image=border3rt.jpg)

Borders just like that as opposed to how it is now, with everything just kind of there.

Perhaps I'm one of the few, but I think borders make it look better, visual, then just having the colors flow into one another

[TheCotMan]

Let me take a picture because I'm not real good with explaining.
Image here. (http://img161.imageshack.us/my.php?image=border3rt.jpg)

Borders just like that as opposed to how it is now, with everything just kind of there.

Perhaps I'm one of the few, but I think borders make it look better, visual, then just having the colors flow into one another

Ok. Here you go. Let's see what people have to say about it.

[skroo]

Ok. Here you go. Let's see what people have to say about it.

To be honest, I don't like it. It makes the pages look really busy and I find it a lot harder to locate information.

The new layour with the avatars on the left rocks, though. We should keep that and hug it and squeeze it and call it George.

[TheCotMan]

To be honest, I don't like it. It makes the pages look really busy and I find it a lot harder to locate information.

The new layour with the avatars on the left rocks, though. We should keep that and hug it and squeeze it and call it George.

Someone /msg-ed me, "It hurts my eyes."
We'll keep it this way for more for ~12 hours for more feedback, and then return it back to the way it was the the "veterical view" (avatars on the left without this last change) which has been mostly well received.

[converge]

Yeah.. at first I thought it was my VNC gone wrong.. I definately like it much more with colors blended to the backdrop ... it seperated fields but was far less obtrusive.

[Thorn]

Left Avatars = Good.
New boarders = Bad!

[converge]

I have seen what Deviant reported with the shifting tables... it appears that a user that does not fill the max cell length (in some browsers) will have short cells than other users that do reach the standard cell size because of how relative sizes are used within the table design.. upside of seperate tables for each post is that they will load seperately instead of waiting for the entire thread page to load before viewing.. downside is that cell metrics are calculated individually and in some threads the size of the content is greater than the content forced cell size in the avatar section.

I would go so far as to wishing we could eliminate some of the whitespace forced between posts by its timestamp being left above ... I realize thats probably not possible, but the shift left definately makes for faster thread reading.

[CP99]

Left Avatars = Good.
New boarders = Bad!

The new boarders took me by suprise. I like the new spaceing, as converge says, it makes for faster reading.

[Deviant Ollam]

make it stop... make it stop!!

seriously, it's making my eyes bleed. or maybe that's just the drugs. the borders might be a good thing if they were only one pixel wide and a soft, grey color.

http://deviating.net/stuff/dc_forum01.gif

http://deviating.net/stuff/dc_forum02.gif

[TheCotMan]

Yeah. We've got enough feedback on this. The 1px border addition to each alternating color table td has been removed.

No need to keep this up for the last 4 hours. Feedback is pretty much one-sided. Reverting back to the "vertical view" with avatars to the left without the extra 1px border for <td> in css.

[TheCotMan]

In about 2 weeks, we will be having another round of account purges. From this point on, we may have monthly account purges without notice for the following:
Any accounts over 30 days old, with zero postcount that do not have confirmed e-mail addresses associated with them

We may have an annual purge of accounts that have a zero postcount and no activity for over 2 years. (This means accounts with only /dev/null-ed content that are inactive for over 2 years may be purged too.)

In other news, GM1 accepted an offer to act as a Leader/Organizer for the unofficial DC14 event called SushiCon that is entering its 3rd? 4th? Year as an unofficial event.

I'm hoping this new Leader/Organizer title and organization of events into subforums makes things easier for people to organize events, and attendees to become informed and particiapte. If it works, these event forums will probably be re-used each year, just like the Ride and Room sharing sub forum.

[TheCotMan]

Many people work together to contribute to make the Toxic BBQ work. Often when you ask any of the people that work to make it happen, "who is in charge?" they respond with more than one name.

We've asked Siviak to see if he was willing to contribute to the Toxic BBQ through the forums as well. He has accepted title on the forums for the Toxic BBQ as "Leader/Organizer" to make stickies, open/close thread, and have access to tools to make organizing this unofficial event easier with the forums.

This does not mean he is the only organizer/volunteer. It only means he is contributing to the event in more ways than before.

Thanks Siviak, and welcome! :-)

[TheCotMan]

Vyrus has accepted the forum role of "Leader/Organizer" in the Amateur CTF subforum.

I won't be making more announcements on who is Leader/Organizer of these contest/event subforums. You can find out if someone is a forum contest/event leader/organizer for any subforum event/contest by visiting it and looking in the lower right hand corner, in the box "Leader(s)/Organizer(s)"

These users aren't mods, and can't ban/unban, but they can organize/edit/open/close/stick/unstick threads and delete posts in these spaces to make it easier for them to control delivery of contest/event information.

If you need more information on this forum title "leader/Organizer" see the above post that gives details.

[Deviant Ollam]

has there been a change to the code with cookies, etc. that controls whether threads appear "read" or "unread" ? starting last night or so, i am getting a lot of the phenomenon where coming to the forums shows me there have been new posts in a few places, but they're all in threads that i know i've read. right now, for instance, Xodia's signup post (http://forum.defcon.org/showpost.php?p=73147&postcount=4) in the BCCC registration thread (http://forum.defcon.org/showthread.php?t=6843) keeps being flagged as new in Mozilla, but i've viewed that thread repeatedly now. anyone else getting this sort of situation? i know it used to happen some time ago, but all that has been working perfectly for ages, at least it has for me.

[TheCotMan]

has there been a change to the code with cookies, etc. that controls whether threads appear "read" or "unread" ? starting last night or so, i am getting a lot of the phenomenon where coming to the forums shows me there have been new posts in a few places, but they're all in threads that i know i've read. right now, for instance, Xodia's signup post (http://forum.defcon.org/showpost.php?p=73147&postcount=4) in the BCCC registration thread (http://forum.defcon.org/showthread.php?t=6843) keeps being flagged as new in Mozilla, but i've viewed that thread repeatedly now. anyone else getting this sort of situation? i know it used to happen some time ago, but all that has been working perfectly for ages, at least it has for me.

This has been a problem since I joined the forums. (No. I did not cause it. :-P ) There have been cases where the update-on-threads-visited gets busted at the client for certain threads.
(No matter how many times you visit, the thread continues to appear to be "unread")

"Fixes"
* Log out, and log back in again (fixes it about 70% of the time)
* At the bottom, select "Mark Forums Read"

What causes this? I am not certain what causes this in all cases, but here are some things that seem to make it happen:
1) Client date/time changes
2) Server time/date changes
3) Being logged in with your account from multiple machines or different web clients at the same time
4) Maybe even logging in with two sessions in the same client (one ssl and the other non-ssl)

Beyond that? I do not know. I have not been able to reliably duplicate it, even with knowing the above items sometimes tickle this bug.

Maybe someone out there has been able to reliably duplicate this. If so, please post your procedure. Once I have that, and I can duplicate it, I can start looking for a cause.

Thanks!

[Second]

What is the image for at the very bottom for that I am supposed to be ignoring?

[Asbestos]

For the thread to be marked as read (at least this works for me), simply click the parent forum (Defcon Forums > General Area > Got Questions > Topic, click 'Got Questions'), then the parent forum of that, and so on until you're at the index.

It's a pain in the ass, but it works (at least for me).


EDIT: The image displays if you're viewing the forum with https, or normal. 'No' for normal (or no SSL), and 'SSL' when it's encrypted.

[TheCotMan]

For the thread to be marked as read (at least this works for me), simply click the parent forum (Defcon Forums > General Area > Got Questions > Topic, click 'Got Questions'), then the parent forum of that, and so on until you're at the index.
This is separate from the bug that comes around (for me) about once every 2 to 4 weeks, where viewing a forum shows a "new" thread, but after reading that thread, and returning to the same forum, the thread appears to still have a new post.

The thing that Devian Ollam reports is another problem that is probably related to one of these two bugs.

It's something to check though, thanks.

What is the image for at the very bottom for that I am supposed to be ignoring?

You are not obeying! You are supposed to be ignoring that! ;-)

The image displays if you're viewing the forum with https, or normal. 'No' for normal (or no SSL), and 'SSL' when it's encrypted.

Yep. That is what it does. (NO for NO SSL.) It is a test for a feature we may or may not add. this test will probably disappear as the "Proof of Concept" stage is done.

[astcell]

When the NO/SSL feature goes live I would like to submit two ideas:

1. Make the type a little bit smaller.
2. Put the NO or SSL at the top of the page so we can see it when we get here.

[TheCotMan]

I have received 3 statements (one through forum PM, one through "chat" and another through e-mail) from different users who expressed concern with inactive accounts being deleted after 30 days. I want to make sure I am clear on this:

There are two groups of accounts that we're looking to purge on a regular basis:

1) Accounts with unconfirmed e-mail addresses AND zero posts AND no activity for 30 days.
(This helps to purge spammer accounts, and account created with bogus e-mail addresses.)

2) Accounts with a zero postcount (as a result of no posts, or all posts being /dev/null-ed) AND no activity for more than 2 years.

Let me know if you have questions. :-)

When the NO/SSL feature goes live I would like to submit two ideas:
1. Make the type a little bit smaller.
2. Put the NO or SSL at the top of the page so we can see it when we get here.
Great Ideas. Maybe make it part of something near the top that better matches the present color scheme.

[Deviant Ollam]

so, i'm using the HTTPS connection to the forums exclusively now. since i told mozilla to accept the certificate permanently there hasn't been much weirdness... except for the fact that now (starting this morning for me) whenever i visit the site i get this message...

http://deviating.net/stuff/dc-https.gif

... it's kind of along the lines of the famously silly error messages that some computers will generate (you know... "floppy disk drive not enabled... insert disk #1 to activate it" or some such self-contradicting nonsense.)

anyone else ever get this? why would it just be starting now?

[Thorn]

so, i'm using the HTTPS connection to the forums exclusively now. since i told mozilla to accept the certificate permanently there hasn't been much weirdness... except for the fact that now (starting this morning for me) whenever i visit the site i get this message...

...<snip>...

... it's kind of along the lines of the famously silly error messages that some computers will generate (you know... "floppy disk drive not enabled... insert disk #1 to activate it" or some such self-contradicting nonsense.)

anyone else ever get this? why would it just be starting now?
I've been getting it whenever I use the https. It's been consistant for months. My browser is FireFox 1.07.

[TheCotMan]

This has to so with "self signed SSL Cert strangeness" when accessing the site with https.

People not using MSIE (or MSIE with non-standard settings) often see an error message like the above each time they start a new web browser (after reboot or browser exit) and browse to the forums over https.

Eventually, when This Goes Into Effect people may need to exit their browser and start it again (in order to "forget" about the self-signed cert) or uninstall the self signed cert if they installed it.

OTOH, when it goes into effect, most people won't see that message and it will be fixed and we'll have stronger security for people using https.

DT will be the one to thank when that goes live.

(For those that wonder about costs for the con, here are two other costs that are paid for by our con fees:)
* License to run the forums
* CA Signed SSL Certificate

[TheCotMan]

Forums are going to be down for maintenance ~2 hour (maybe less) starting at 7pm pacific time.

[TheCotMan]

Forums are going to be down for maintenance ~2 hour (maybe less) starting at 7pm pacific time.

Back up at 8pm. Please let us know if you notice any problems or bugs.

[Deviant Ollam]

Back up at 8pm. Please let us know if you notice any problems or bugs.the little graphic "SSL / NO" indicator is gone for me. i mean, that was just there for testing purposes so i didn't imagine it would be permanent... but has it been officially removed or is my browser doing something odd?

[TheCotMan]

the little graphic "SSL / NO" indicator is gone for me. i mean, that was just there for testing purposes so i didn't imagine it would be permanent... but has it been officially removed or is my browser doing something odd?
That was removed one or two days ago before this maintenance last night.

[TheCotMan]

We've been informed that the server will be unavailable while things are being moved around.

At around 2:30pm (Pacific Time), the forums will be closed, content will be saved, and then copied to an offsite location.

Assuming this event is not postponed, the server may be completely unavailable at around 3pm (Pacific time) and may remain that way for several hours. (Back, perhaps at around, 4, 5, 6 or 7pm depending on how long it takes.)

[TheCotMan]

A change has been made to the rules due to my mistake in not handling an exception:

Under Spamming, the following was removed:
Do NOT add a new post to tell about a correction, EDIT your posts with mistakes.

and replaced with::

Replying to your own posts can be viewed as spamming.
To fix your post, edit it; unless you are banned, or a thread is closed, you may edit your post for up to 24 hours after it is created.

People who have been around the forums know that there are exceptions the this:
People running events may reply to their own posts in the thread they started with updates on the event. (Value)
Technical threads, or discussions may include inaccurate information posted more than 24 hours prior, but needs to be fixed anyway (value to readers looking through the thread later.)
And there may be other exceptions too.

Rules may be refined even more in this space, since all of the mods may contribute to decisions on rules.

I'm going to start a new thread for users to ask questions about the rules.

[TheCotMan]

Cleaning up the Bounced e-mail messages...

Since forum email was fixed (ability to reset passwords, get notification of changes to threads you have subscribed, etc.) We've been seeing more bounced messages due to bad hostnames, or nameserver lookup failure, bad MX records that point to IP that do not have SMTP servers, and a whole list of problems.

(We get about 20 bounced messages per day-- most from a few users/addresses.)

I've been changing forum accounts that have bouncing e-mail messages to the usergroup "requires email confirmation." (There are about 80 of these accounts to date.)

Most accounts being changed have had no activity for over 1 year.

If you suddenly find you can't post even though you are not banned, and your description is changed to "Lurker" you can request a change in password be sent to your address, or re-request email account validation. If you can login, you may be able to edit your e-mail address.

If you can't get this to work, send an e-mail including your forum username to defconforums@gmail.com asking for a new e-mail message to activate your forums account. This activation email will only be sent to the address that is presently associated with the forum account in question.

Though we can edit forum accounts and their e-mail addresses, we don't tend to do that because of the risk for SE and theft of accounts.

We can re-send email activation messages to your registered e-mail address, but it is up to you to ensure that your present e-mail address may receive e-mail.

If you still have access to your account, then you should be able to change your forum e-mail address.

Some of you that have "currently active" accounts will be receiveing forum Private Message from me, letting you know that your e-mail address is broken.

Future bounces due to bad domain names, no user mailbox on host, relay errors or other non-temporary may result in offending forums accounts changed to "waiting for e-mail validation."

8 accounts with active posters were sent PM with no change yet to usergroup.
5 accounts were previously deleted
19 accounts had email address bounces that were "temporary in nature" -- these bounces are ignored for now.

45 account have not been used in over 1 year (set to be purged is they have zero postcount, or require email confirmation otherwise)
12 accounts were created within the last year, with no future activity, or posts. (set to be purged if they have zero postcount, or require email confirmation otherwise)

[TheCotMan]

We're working on simplifying the forums. Things may get moved around a bit over the next week or so.

[TheCotMan]

We're working on simplifying the forums. Things may get moved around a bit over the next week or so.
Moderators discussed adding simplicity to the forums, and came to a solution without disagreement:
Dump the threads from "Tech News" , "Computer Security" , "Wireless" , and "Got Questions" into the single "Community Talk"

Now You all will probably see two spaces for posting:
DefCon Stuff
Not-DefCon Stuff

Stage 1 is complete.

We'll be dealing with the tsumani of stickies in Community Talk over the next few days.

What is Stage 2? I don't know yet. :-)

[converge]

Sticky reform started in the relocation thread.

I think the next stage will be releasing the floodwaters of /devnull .. take note of any existing stats we want, then dump them all into the main forum now that we have learned a thing or two from the event.

[TheCotMan]

I think the next stage will be releasing the floodwaters of /devnull .. take note of any existing stats we want, then dump them all into the main forum now that we have learned a thing or two from the event.

Yes, I guess it is good to let the public know that /dev/null is a candidate simplification* too.

*- We are considering dumping all threads in the /dev/null subforums into one superforum "/dev/null" (putting /dev/null back to the way it was) but there is disagreement on this.


Re-ordering the sequence forums are displayed is being considered too.

[TheCotMan]

Hello public members.

Phase 2:
1) Evaluation of Moved/Redirections for rules in the "Community Talk"
2) Evaluation of color coding the "Sticky" thread label with a different color. (Yes, the color sucks and hurts my eyes. It is a demo, and will likely change to another color or revert back to what it was originally. Feedback welcome.)
3) Evaluation of color coding for "Moved" and redirected threads (similar to above.)
4) Evaluation of funky datestamp kludging to enforce ordering of sticky/redirection notices, with the side effect of "Rules" always being listed as having unread posts, and the modified threads/posts appeaing in every search for new posts (nav bar option.) It appears there are dangers in sending posts from the future back in time. Before you ask, we take turns using the DeLorean.

Comments on these are welcome.

Phase 3 will probably be the flattening /dev/null unless it isn't. (heh)

[Ridirich]

Nice! I like the way the rules are set up now!

Shit man, if someone fucks up now, you can say "Read the rules, you fucking idiot! They were posted with style, flair and are extremely easy to navigate."

[Deviant Ollam]

i like the new setup all around... my only concern is that i don't want this forum to become similar to others that i frequent (like lockpicking101.com) where every single sub-forum is topped off with an assload of sticky threads, necessitating scrolling of almost a page or more just to read new content. my impression of making a thread sticky is that it is one of two things...

1. a thread that describes the purpose of a forum, rules, etc. thus, it stays at the top forever
2. important and deserves superior attention for at least a while... threads like this are often long-running conversations that are being added to sporadically. eventually, however, threads like this (this is just my opinion) deserve to be moved to a separate area (something like, i don't know... "guides and good advice") where they can live and continue to grow without blocking the new fresh posts and younger threads that appear.

i realize that it's difficult to decide when and how such moves would be made. but i really get annoyed when i check in with an online forum just for a moment and have to spend forever scrolling down to see two new posts. it would be a real dream if somehow there were a small button or link to click next to the table header that reads "Threads in Forum" which would be "proceed to new posts", linking to a hidden named anchor in the row with the first non-sticky thread. just an idea, likely not supported in the default vBulletin code. :doubt:

[TheCotMan]

ii don't want this forum to become similar to others that i frequent (like lockpicking101.com) where every single sub-forum is topped off with an assload of sticky threads
We are in the process of cropping down the stickies in Community Talk. I think that 7 were unstuck, and the rest are being examined. "The Rules" and Chris' piece of art threads will likely remain (the two "moved" threads.)
The rest open for debate.

1. a thread that describes the purpose of a forum, rules, etc. thus, it stays at the top forever
Yep. The two that meet this are the Rules and Chris' thread.

The rest? I'm not sure yet.

2. important and deserves superior attention for at least a while... threads like this are often long-running conversations that are being added to sporadically. eventually, however, threads like this (this is just my opinion) deserve to be moved to a separate area (something like, i don't know... "guides and good advice") where they can live and continue to grow without blocking the new fresh posts and younger threads that appear.
At this time, we're trying to cut back on the number of forums.

We might put converge's thread on customer service into the rules forum because it is an example of a rules issue-- then again, it may become a sticky like Chris' moved post.

Threads like "ebooks" and "links you can't live without" tend to grow over time and if they were not sticky threads, would be overlooked.

i realize that it's difficult to decide when and how such moves would be made. but i really get annoyed when i check in with an online forum just for a moment and have to spend forever scrolling down to see two new posts. it would be a real dream if somehow there were a small button or link to click next to the table header that reads "Threads in Forum" which would be "proceed to new posts", linking to a hidden named anchor in the row with the first non-sticky thread. just an idea, likely not supported in the default vBulletin code. :doubt:
Heh. Check out the navbar (across the top. the horizontal navigation bar) for the link named "New Posts"
You can click on that and see all of the unread posts, sorted by last post date. :-)

[Deviant Ollam]

Check out the navbar... for the link named "New Posts" You can click on that and see all of the unread posts, sorted by last post date.heh... learning is fun.

[TheCotMan]

4) Evaluation of funky datestamp kludging to enforce ordering of sticky/redirection notices, with the side effect of "Rules" always being listed as having unread posts, and the modified threads/posts appeaing in every search for new posts (nav bar option.) It appears there are dangers in sending posts from the future back in time. Before you ask, we take turns using the DeLorean.

It seems that I've found a method to make the Moved/Redirected Rules and Chri's thread in community talk stay on top-- even when other stickies have newer dates, and all of this while having the linked posts appear to have their original datestamp, and not showing up in the "New Posts" link or being listed under "Rules" as containing unviewed thread content.

I'm not sure how reliable this "fix" will be, but it works for now.

Also, the Yellow and Red for the Moved/Redirections and "Sticky" have been muted. I think the new colors still attract attention but are darker and more inline with the other forum colors.

[astcell]

New color is good for the stickies.

[TheCotMan]

New color is good for the stickies.
I should mention, the idea for the color-coded stickies was astcell's. (Thanks astcell! :-)

I really should go back and attribute citations for each well-liked change to the person that suggested them.

[converge]

meh.. we're all a team. after all, making the boss look good is part of the job, eh?

[astcell]

I'm just happy to help out. My ideas are not always gonna be good, hehe.

But if you insist, you can buy me TWO beers. :>

[converge]

oh .. wait.. I didn't know there was alcohol involved.. I'll retract my statement then.

[TheCotMan]

meh.. we're all a team. after all, making the boss look good is part of the job, eh?
Yeah, it is fun making Nulltone (The Forum Admin) and Dark Tangent (well, you know what he does) look good.

if you insist, you can buy me TWO beers. :>
There we have it! Everyone who likes the color coding of stickies is encouraged to buy astcell beer at the next DefCon-- oh, and if he is not there this year, you have to pay up at the next con he attends. ]:>

oh .. wait.. I didn't know there was alcohol involved.. I'll retract my statement then.
(In voice of Zap Brannigan)
Wait-wait-wait. No take-see-back-sees!

[astcell]

I already think that "Get astcell to phone a goon" is going to be on next Con's Scavenger Hunt list. :>

[TheCotMan]

I already think that "Get astcell to phone a goon" is going to be on next Con's Scavenger Hunt list. :>
You should submit that in some variation to the Scavenger Hunt suggestions space (if/when it is available.)

Forums Update:
/dev/null has been flattened. However, all of the work that converge put into organizing the /dev/null threads has not been lost; A raw dump of statistics on posts that were moved to /dev/null was saved before the /dev/null subforum threads were re-integrated back into /dev/null.

Fucktard Hall is the only subforum that had enough support to survive on its own at the top level of the forums.

We'll probably have another update in 2 days on another change.

[TheCotMan]

Octalpus has a great idea--> Add a search form that does not require clicking to activate. She had a good argument for it too.

We are testing the Search Box at the top right corner for logged-in users. Users who are not logged in will see a form in the same space for username/password to log in.

Suggestions and feedback welcome.

[Tacitus]

We are testing the Search Box at the top right corner for logged-in users. Users who are not logged in will see a form in the same space for username/password to log in.
.

I am seeing the new search box below the Welcome/PM text area, I think it would look better if it was in horizontal alignment (to the left) with this box so the height overall main box at the top does not change

[Voltage Spike]

Octalpus has a great idea--> Add a search form that does not require clicking to activate. She had a good argument for it too.

So ... what was the argument? Support for older web browsers? It might explain why we also need yet another "Advanced Search" link. (And what's with the period after advanced search in the new area?)

Why do we still have the 30-second delay between searches? It can make things very frustrating if you don't get the search correct the first time. I usually switch to a site-specific Google in such cases, but still...

Thanks in advance.

[TheCotMan]

I am seeing the new search box below the Welcome/PM text area, I think it would look better if it was in horizontal alignment (to the left) with this box so the height overall main box at the top does not change
We're trying to avoid changes to the source code and templates, since these tend to complicate future upgrades and patches. This means we're limited to modifications to serverside substituion variable values being overloaded to add new content.

I'll look to see if there is something I can do to flatten out the search\ horizontally.

So ... what was the argument?
I'll let her offer it if she wants. :-)

[snip] [W]hat's with the period after advanced search in the new area?
Yeah. Well, in order to add the code you see without modifying the source code, I had to alter other stuff, and insert text before a period, and then come up with a reason to use the period that is added in the source code. Yes, this is a kludge, but it works, and survives upgrades and patches without extra effort.

Why do we still have the 30-second delay between searches? It can make things very frustrating if you don't get the search correct the first time. I usually switch to a site-specific Google in such cases, but still...
30 seconds is still imposed for all users. It is something that mods may revisit and change.

[TheCotMan]

30 seconds is still imposed for all users. It is something that mods may revisit and change.

We're testing out 10 seconds for minimum delay between searches. 10 Seconds should be ebough time to look over the resulting hits before deciding that you need another search.

Comments and feedback are welcome for this change too.

[Voltage Spike]

We're testing out 10 seconds for minimum delay between searhes. 10 Seconds should be ebough time to look over the resulting hits before deciding that you need another search.

Unless there were no results, but, even then, I would say my average "time until next search" was 22 seconds ... so 10 seconds should work.

[TheCotMan]

0) Search
1) skype image broken, now fixed
2) new leaders/organizers users added
3) RSS ?

0)
Thanks to everyone who contributed ideas to make search work. The final (knock on wood) incarnation is actually a combination of 4 or 5 people's ideas, but was initiated by Octalpus. If you like that near search form, then you might want to consider thanks (perhaps in the form of beer or other beverage) at Defcon to the following people: Octalpus, Xodia, tacitus, Voltage Spike, and one or more other people I am probably forgetting.

1--
A user pointed out a problem (in private) with the "skype" image not being loaded properly in ssl sessions. (Instead the alt tag information was being displayed, and that broke formatting.)
This (skype) image (near the other IM images when looking at profiles or users' posts) should now be fixed.
Thanks to the user that reported it. :-)

2--
Welcomes to Lost and Neural who have good reputations on the forums, are well liked by many at the con, and are active enough both be leader/organizers to their contest subforum recently renamed to "Net Appliance Challenge" We'll wish them good luck on the first year for this contest.

Welcome to UberSchnitzel who is just starting out on the forums, but who has made a good enough impression on a long-time goon and moderator to get sponsored/vouched by them as Leader/Organizer AND pass our other criteria for consideration. UberSchnitzel is Leader/Organizer for the Contest subforum, "TCP/IP Enabled Device and Peripheral Contest." Good luck to you too on this 3rd? 4th? year for this contest.

3--
Assuming there are no disagreements, it looks like RSS for forum posts/threads will be turned on for testing. If there are problems, it may be turned off. We'll know more after it is running for a few weeks.

How to use it:
Add one of the four URL to your favorite RSS client:
RSS protocol v0.92* over plain text http:
http://forum.defcon.org/external.php?type=rss

RSS protocol v2 over plain text http:
http://forum.defcon.org/external.php?type=rss2

RSS protocol v0.93 over SSL-based https:
http://forum.defcon.org/external.php?type=rss

RSS protocol v2 over SSL-based https:
http://forum.defcon.org/external.php?type=rss2

If you use the http links, then I believe your client will probably offer http links-to-threads instead of https links.
If you use the https links, then I believe your client will probably offer https links-to-threads instead of http links.

With any of the above sample rss links, you should be able to append "&forumids=1,2,3,4" (no double quote) to limit the RSS feed to the forums with forum ID of 1, 2, 3 or 4 -- assuming we have forumsID with those numbers. New posts are limited to what a "guest" user can read.

Thanks to Bascule for bringing up this suggestion here. If you like RSS, consider thanks to Bascule for suggesting it here.

About RSS:
Firefox supports an extention for RSS:
http://sage.mozdev.org/

I heard there is support for RSS in Opera

There are also RSS stand-alone clients:
http://blogspace.com/rss/readers
http://www.rss-specifications.com/rss-reader-linux.htm (for linux)

Assuming there is no disagreement, this will probably be activated some time tomorrow or Sunday in the late PM.

For keeping the forums running, find a mod (other than me) and ofeer them a beer at the con-- they'll likely be dealing with more asshats as we get closer to DefCon and will probably need several beers at DefCon to help them forget..

That's all for now

[accident]

liek zomg yuo forgot to lox it!!!! yUo = t3h hUrp.

[TheCotMan]

liek zomg yuo forgot to lox it!!!! yUo = t3h hUrp.
(Above posted as a reply to a post in Fucktard Hall -- a space that was (ro))

Yep. I am "teh hurp" for that one.

When Fucktard Hall was relocated to a top level group, the permissions were automagically altered to inheirit the permissions of the group insead of retaining what they were before the move.

Permissions to Fucktard Hall have been fixed and are being tested.

Thanks for the bug report.

[accident]

(Above posted as a reply to a post in Fucktard Hall -- a space that was (ro))

Yep. I am "teh hurp" for that one.

When Fucktard Hall was relocated to a top level group, the permissions were automagically altered to inheirit the permissions of the group insead of retaining what they were before the move.

Permissions to Fucktard Hall have been fixed and are being tested.

Thanks for the bug report.


ahh, my bad. i just wanted to make fun of you. :p i actually contributed something? damn. haha. good work anyway.

[converge]

cotman was pwned

[TheCotMan]

Forums down for maintenance Jan 31, 2006 at 7:00am (Pacific Time.)
Expect downtime should be 1 hour or less.
Thanks!

[TheCotMan]

Forums down for maintenance Jan 31, 2006 at 7:00am (Pacific Time.)
Expect downtime should be 1 hour or less.
Thanks!

Done. If you notice any strangeness in the forums, please let us know.

[TheCotMan]

Forum rules updates to include a link to The Official DefCon FAQ (http://www.defcon.org/html/links/dc-faq/faqv91.html) in two places.

Hopfully, this combined with the 7 day waiting period for new users will help avoid people signing up to the forums to ask questions like:
Is DefCon really cancelled?
Is there a minimum age to attend DefCon?
or any of the other FAQ.

In other news, if you have been experiencing problems accessing the forums over the past week, feel free to post your problems in a reply here over the next 24 hours. Please report the time it happened in Pacific Time.
Thanks!

[TheCotMan]

RSS Seems to be working fine. RSS image links have been added to the bottom of the page. Location may change, and images being used may change, but whatever happens, they are there now.

[TheCotMan]

I'm a week late with this, but here goes...

Xodia and Alentrace are working with their DCG to organize a PokerCon this year. Though they are orginizing this with others, Xodia has been selected as the a "forum leader/organizer" for the PokerCon space even though they are both organizers.

A new forum user was nominated by a Goon and Moderator to be the forums leader/organizer to LPCon. The user comes highly recommended by the previous organizer of Defcon's previous LPCon, Kai. After lack of opposition from the mods, DOC-LPCon is now forum leader/organizer for the LPCON subforum. This new user is DOC-LPCon.

Congrats to Xodia and DOC-LPCon who are forums leader/organizers for ther respective subforums, PokerCon and LPCon.

[klepto]

The CERT still does not work correctly still on firefox or mozilla on linux & bsd.

It still keeps saying the same errors that I mentioned previously in this thread.

*Just tried it on Windows too.....nada*

[TheCotMan]

The CERT still does not work correctly still on firefox or mozilla on linux & bsd.

It still keeps saying the same errors that I mentioned previously in this thread.

Thanks for the reminder. DT reads these threads and his response is the one you want.

[Dark Tangent]

Thanks for the reminder. DT reads these threads and his response is the one you want.

My fault.. dropped off my radar.

I'll buy one for forum.defcon.org and www.defcon.org this week. I'll post when they are all installed and stuph!@#

[TheCotMan]

Information was recently provided to us that Thorn will be running what was "The Wardriving Contest" but is now will probably be called "The Wireless Contest"
Thorn is now also registered as a forum leader/organizer for that contest subforum.

Thorn has been around with these forums (and others ;-) for a long time. He has a great reputation, and many old-timers know him quite well.

Welcomes to Thorn. :-)

[TheCotMan]

A welcome a-board to Priest, who has been running the Spot the Fed contest and is now a Forum Leader/Organizer for the Contest & Events subforum "Spot the Fed."

[TheCotMan]

Since we occasionally purge zero postcount users that have been inactive for over 2 years, it makes sense the measure of an active user as a user who has been active within the past 2 years,

A feature has been enabled to show "active users" at the bottom.

Members: 9,997, Active Members: 8,996
About 90% of all users have been active within the past 2 years, while only 10% have been inactive for more than 2 years. (Not too bad when you think about it.)
Users with postcount greater than 100: 72 (less than 1% of all users.)
Users with postcount greater than 50: 139 (a bit over 1% of all users.)
Users with postcount greater than 25: 228 (a bit over 2% of all users.)
Users with postcount greater than 10: 442 (around 4.5% of all users.)
Users with postcount greater than 5: 757 (around 7.6% of all users.)
User with a postcount of 0: 7540 (around 75% of all users)
And of those 7540 users with zero postcount, only 520 of them have zero postcount as a result of having all of their posts put into /dev/null or Fucktard Hall.
This means we have MANY lurkers and occasional periodic users. (7020 user who have never posted, but who have been active within the past 2 years.)

[Deviant Ollam]

i have to say that vBulletin really impresses me, what with all the fancy data mapping that it can do... or perhaps this is just our team of mods who possess sql-fu. either way, statistics are sexy. :cool:

[TheCotMan]

Other people seemed to like the stats too, so here are some more in graphical form:
This one is a not really useful. When the forums are really slow, one user's /dev/null content can cause a jump in the /dev/null percent, while busy forums can have a higher total quantity of /dev/null posts while maintaining a low percent.
http://forum.defcon.org/custom/images/2006-03-05-percent-devnull-vs-total.png

This one is more useful. It separates /dev/null content from non-/dev/null content to show total posts, and really tell us something more about the volume and percent:
http://forum.defcon.org/custom/images/2006-03-05-totals-devnull+non-devnull.png

[TheCotMan]

Forum Maintenance scheduled March 6 @9:00-10:00pm, Pacific Time.

Though the window is for a full hour, it is possible the downtime will be much less.

[Dark Tangent]

OK, I forked over the dollars to buy a "real" ssl cert for forum.defcon.org and www.defcon.org. I've loaded them up, so now we are good to go.

Please start using the SSL features for the web site and the forums!

Thanks,

DT

[noid]

worked like a charm. no browser bitching, just sweet SSL goodness

[Deviant Ollam]

nice work! i was surprised just now when i sat down... i fired up the forums and was poised for the extra whack of [enter] that has become second nature to me when a new browser session goes to the forums and the warning message pops up. when that message didn't appear i started looking around like "did i leave an instance of mozilla running somewhere all day when i was gone?"

splendid work, thanks for all you do with the forums. they're a terrific extension of the community.

[TheCotMan]

nice work!
Yes. Those signed certs are not cheap. Thanks DT!

splendid work, thanks for all you do with the forums. they're a terrific extension of the community.
I might be biased, but all of the other mods do great work here, keeping the place looking good. :-)

(What is more amazing, is that they tolerate my bad puns, and what they might call my, "attempts," at humor. O:-)

Now that we have a cert signed by a trusted authority, this, "programming of forum members," to press that extra "whack" (enter) needs to be seriously reconsidered (especially if you plan to log into the forums from the con, or any hostile network.)

As humans, repetition can cause us to make assumptions in order to save time, and certain kinds of attacks on https could end up working (to steal your usernames/password) when we are conditioned to blindly press return.

Eventually, we should treat any web browser dialog about the forums ssl cert as an indication of potential risk of your data being intercepted by a 3rd party. (There may be a period of testing of how the ssl cert is delivered to web clients, so don't assume that "someone is 'hacking' you" if you get a dialog box from the forums when using https over the next week or so.)

[klepto]

good stuff on the cert

[TheCotMan]

Forum Maintenance scheduled March 6 @9:00-10:00pm, Pacific Time.
Testing, 1 2 3?

Looks like they work again.

Please report any problems.

Thanks!

[TheCotMan]

The "Priavte" calendar is at risk for deletion. If for some crazy reason, you have been using the forums' private calendar as a calendar system for your own events, you have 5 days to copy them somewhere else.

[TheCotMan]

The private calendar has been deleted.

In the welcome e-mail that is sent to new users, we explain how they are not able to immediately post messages, are encouraged to lurk & read the rules, and explain when they will be able to post.

We will be adding text to state that the last automated "promotion" will include access to post moderated events to the forum events calendar. (None of the regular users will have access to edit events, or delete them.)

Leaders/Organizers and Goons can post new events without moderation, and can edit any events that they have created. Deletion of event will not be available. (An event may be edited and "cancelled" and the date/time moved to some other time/place so it "disappears" from current view, but we want to avoid deleting events.)

(Above usergroups may not edit each others' posted events.)

Moderators can (but shouldn't) delete events. Moderators can also create and edit events. Additionally, they can edit any users' event.

The new text of the welcome e-mail is as follows:
Dear <user's-username>,

You are now at level of Registered User "Lurker" on the Defcon Forums.

You are encouraged to read and follow the rules:
http://forum.defcon.org/showthread.php?t=2855

* You can't yet Post messages, polls, or use Forum PM:

For the next 7 days, your account is limited* and you are encouraged to lurk in order to understand the social rules and forum rules. As a "Lurking User" you now have access to a long history of posts not visible to non-registered users, and can use the forum search to help you locate posts.

After 7 but less than 14 days, you are granted: limited use to PM (Private Messages on the forums-- a kind of "Forum mail"), access to reply to EXISTING threads (on topic), vote in existing polls, and upload a custom avatar.

After 14 but less than 21 days, you are allowed to start new threads, and set a custom description in your UserCP. (The default is now "Registered User."

After 21 days and some non-negative forum contributions, a slightly larger Forum PM MailBox is made available and you will be able to post new, public events to the event calendar-- pending moderator approval of the event.

Once an event is created, you won't be able to edit it or delete it. If the time or description of the event needs to be changed, ask a moderator for help.

There are no other automated promotions.

[klepto]

If there is a waiting period after people register till they can post.....It will turn away lots of people.

[TheCotMan]

If there is a waiting period after people register till they can post.....It will turn away lots of people.

The welcome message and policy (11-14-2005, 12:18) were added several months ago. Certainly there are fewer people joining that there could be, but we still have a growing active member list that is getting larger, faster than it is shrinking. Effectively, we have a sliding window of active user count, where unused accounts are destroyed while new ones are created.

You may or may not know it, but it has been about 2 months since I've seen spam here. The number of /dev/null posts has been dropping, and we get fewer questions that could be answered by google, and fewer rule violations. Multi-level banning of users, IP addresses, intelligent subnet blocks, and changes like these have started to improve the quality of content on the forums.

Even with the above, forum population is growing faster than it is shrinking. (Maybe I should start tracking this for graphing.)

The busiest peaks on the forums were when Politics and Religion were actively discussed, but these periods were short and intense. When P&R went away, the brief spikes of activity declined. Even though there were fewer "peaks" activity spanned longer periods. Then last year, we had traffic that approached previous peaks, and was also longer lasting-- We are quickly approaching a, "year round forum."

So far, it seems to be "working." If it becomes a problem, and starts to "kill" the forums, we can easily remove it.

Allowing the forums to become more central to planning with DefCon will probably draw even more people to join--especially those looking to compete in contests or participate in events. If the forums contain a downloadable calendar of events, then I sense more people will look to start and add their own events, and hopefully share here.

[TheCotMan]

Welcome to user "numbertwo" as forum "leader/organizer" to the new contest "Buzzword Survivor" subforum. I think there is another announcement coming soon, too.

[klepto]

Going back to your post, number 149, I think 7 days is a long time in the internet world.

[TheCotMan]

Going back to your post, number 149, I think 7 days is a long time in the internet world.

7 days is a long time for some people. On the plus side, people will seek answers to Defcon questions from other sources (like google, or the FAQ or the main web page, or by using forum search. People truly interested in contributing won't be scared by 7 days, and people really interested will be able to do the 7 days before being able to reply.

This also creates "value" in accounts, as users are less willing to do something stupid if it means they will have to wait again before posting.

Since that post (3 weeks ago) the forum userbase has grown a net increase of about 60 active users in about 3 weeks. (Net growth is after the pruning of account that have gone 2 weeks without email validation, and the pruning of accounts with over 2 years of inactivity and zero postcounts.)

Also, the last spam we had posted to the forums was Jan 25, 2006, and last Fucktard Hall inductee was November 7 of last year-- 5 months ago.

Here is a view of total posts (purple) per day over /dev/null, spam and fucktard hall posts (orange) for a 5 year period:
http://forum.defcon.org/custom/images/devnullvstotaldaily-11.04.2006.png
(30-day mean averaging is included, in order to smooth-out peaks and dampen effect sof troughs.)

It looks to me like we have a pre-con growth curve (far right) in posting like previous years, but a /dev/null "lull" period (orange) longer than most any other time in the history of the forums.

If this policy of an imposed waiting period proves ineffective, or the mods come to dislike it for some reason, or "something else happens," it can be revisited at any point and removed.

If I recall correctly, the mods spent a long time discussing this before going forward with it. Many of the changes we have seen over the past 8 months came as a result of mods discussing ideas. Some ideas have been tested and undone, some reviewed and revised, while others are still present or "in testing."

I recognize your complaint, and I understand several implications with an imposed waiting period. At the moment, I have no "better" solution.

I am open for other suggestions to help deal with the tard-ism (it's a religion) and spam while pulling back on the wait period. If other techniques can be included (especially automatic techniques) the mods can consider them for implementation. You have anything specific in mind?

Examples of things being tested, that may not remain if there are problems with them:
Increased use of warnings to potential abusers before eternal ban-nation,
The contest/event subforums,
The new title of "Leader/Organizer" in the forums for selected event organizer or contest leaders to have more control to manage discussions about their contest/event,
The Search/Advanced Search feature and shorted wait-period between searches,
This new user waiting period,
One of the layers of spam banning,
(more)

Anything being tested can be removed if there is mod-agreement.

Do you have any replacements for the waiting period?

[converge]

klepto: CotMan covered most of the ground on this, but lets not leave him as the lone soldier. This is an idea underway, based on a topic that has come up year after year: How do we form a forum that is:

1) centered around the community
2) semi-intelligent with strong content discussion / contributions
3) low levels of spam
4) low levels of asshats

#1 was tackled with a little restructuring, trying to bring focus back to Defcon and the events surrounding it. By building a better aftermarket Defcon crowd, we're hoping that folks inadvertantly help build a better Defcon; a value added to everyone involved and general idea that feeds off itself.

#2 isn't something moderators can force. We've tried seeding discussion threads in the past that just fall silent to ill interest or whatnot. Trying to encourage people to post technicial threads didn't yield as well either, since this isn't really a technical forum, it is the Defcon forum. Ultimately this fell into the resolution for #1, building a stronger discussion base around Defcon itself (both technical and nontech).

#3 was an issue that started occuring more frequently, deftly covered up by the forum admin ninjas.. it didn't solve the problem. Forums were getting caught (resources taken) up with a crapload of 3rdparty bots, so this was addressed and appears to be considerably resolved. The forums still fell subject to users that would sign up and post immediately, whether spam or general tardism. The problem was reviewed.. the people causing the hearthache weren't generally ones that had signed up and waitied.. they were all fresh accounts. We could watch the account be created, watch the signup hit confirmation and be ready to immediately oust them because it was just that predictable. The idea of a waiting period formed from this.

#4 The biggest bane is that when the forums get junked with crapthreads, posts,etc.. the people that participate in active, valued discussion stop reading/visiting the forums entirely because it strictly becomes a waste of time... moderators included.. which is generally how the topic becomes revisited, after hitting an unbearable threshold of crappiness. This is a problem that has to be improved on. Eventually the grumble about moderators just being dicks comes up, derrived from the increased amount of smackdown that occurs, coupled with the increased pointedness of replies due to frustration with all the crap flowing in. While a lot of us get a kick out of talking shit to someone that deserves it, a forum full of that is just not a happy place.

Every year new creative ideas are discussed and many of them shot down. After reviewing the types of content hitting /dev/null, and the patterns of those posters.. the idea of a waiting period seemed much more feasible. The period in discussion varied wildly. Many moderators were ready, myself included, to test a 2-4 week flat waiting period for new signups. Further discussion and reason determined that it would probably be too much, so we decided to test a much shorter waiting period of 7 days for initial posting.. trailed by the current rulesets for additional time before creating your own threads, PMing others (previously a growing annoyance amoung new signups harassing members), etc.

...and if a community member *really* wants to get something posted ASAP and they just happened to create a new account to do it, it can still be brought to the moderators for advanced account promotion. I have not personally received any complaints yet about not being able to post from people wanting to actively participate... CotMan?

[TheCotMan]

I have not personally received any complaints yet about not being able to post from people wanting to actively participate... CotMan?

One complaint was submitted by e-mail, and the user siad something like, "2 weeks before I can start a thread? Fuck that shit. I need help with my computer right now! Please delete my account."
(Not an exact quote, but you get the idea.)

[Added: In reality, it is 1 week before you can post a reply to an existing thread, and 2 weeks before you can post a new thread.]

We have also received requests from goons or people running contests or both, to promote a new user to have access to post immediately.

In some cases, a well-known and reliable source (like a core goon) *knows* the account user in real-life, and it is in the interest of the community, Defcon, events and contests for the person to have their account upgraded immediately.

This has happened, um... ?3 times? in the past 3 months? Every single case included a Goon making a request or vouching for the person, and each took about 24 hours to complete (most of the time, less then 8 hours.) [Most of this time was caused by delays with e-mail.]

We've entertained other ideas too, like a "newbie sandbox" where new users can post stuff, but that does not solve the problem-- people will still break the rules, they will just do so in the sandbox, and this does not help deal with the spamming problem.

Another was a "peer review" system where any member could "vote" on threads and members and automatic ban rules could apply to user accounts that fall below a certain value-- obviously flawed idea, as it does not work elsewhere, and would contribute to a "gang" mentality where groups of people would intimidate those they don't like and then cooperate to vote/ban any user away. (This idea was nixed rather quickly-- and it is a good thing we did not go with it. :-) [Imagine different "clans" of people on the forums (like online gamers) who scheme against players they don't like.]

Ideas that granted access based on a long-term age of an account (months) were not good, because age of account is no indication of "not an asshat." Over the short-term, (weeks) access could be extended through age with the assumption that most people will be able to learn through lurking and have opportunity to read the rules.

Ideas about number of posts for granting more access were just silly, as people would post even more crap to try to get into a new access group to get more access. This is why the last automatic group upgrade is based on a small number of posts and time and does not give a user any new access control; it only gives them a slightly larger PM box-- something they might use if they were active.

If you have new ideas, that will help us with the problems and goals mentioned above, I'd like to read them.

Thanks!

[TheCotMan]

Next Stage: Automagically Updated Flatfiles.

Things seem to be stable enough to move forward with updated flatfiles.
Several times each hour, the script provides updates to these "files" so you can subscribe to them and periodically update. As new events are added to the forums, if you, "refresh remote calendars," you should be able to get the latest event listings.

Only 2 so far, and the "Conventions" calendar may go away:
http://forum.defcon.org/ical/events.ics
http://forum.defcon.org/ical/events.ics

http://forum.defcon.org/ical/conventions.ics
http://forum.defcon.org/ical/conventions.ics

If you are an event/contest organizer, add an event to the forums, and in a short time, that event is available for download as part of the "events.ics" calendar.

[TheCotMan]

You may soon see "connectivity problems" with the forums soon, or may see them right now, in which case, you probably can't see this post yet.
If you see a "blank page" or can't connect, try connecting to the IP address:
http://216.231.63.37/
or
https://216.231.63.37/

If you know others are complaining about "the forums being down" suggest the above URL as temporary fixes.

[Added:]
It looks like the DNS issues were fixed, but it may take 3-5 days for DNS Servers that don't follow min/max cache or refresh times from domain records. (Some ISP try to save on DNS work by caching rcord information longer than the record specifies it should be cached.)

Most will be fine in an hour, some may take a day, and a small minority may take 3 to 5 days. (It is really up to your ISP and you.)

The IP Addresses above should be fine as a temporary fix. If you still have problems with the forums with the name "forum.defcon.org" but not with the IP Address after 5 days, please post the problem here.

Thanks

[shrdlu]

klepto: CotMan covered most of the ground on this, but lets not leave him as the lone soldier.?

I thought I'd add a little perspective to this from the user's side. I had joined initially some years ago, but found it so noisy and unproductive that I lost interest. I doubt I ever made a post. I recently rejoined, and discovered that your new system wouldn't let me post for a week (etc, etc, etc). My purpose in rejoining was to provide information about Coffee Wars in the Contests section.


...Further discussion and reason determined that it would probably be too much, so we decided to test a much shorter waiting period of 7 days for initial posting...


Yeah, this one surprised me a whole bunch. However, I didn't see any emergency (even the deadline for updates to the printed program isn't until the 15th), and I figured that there was simply no need for me to look for special treatment.


...and if a community member *really* wants to get something posted ASAP and they just happened to create a new account to do it, it can still be brought to the moderators for advanced account promotion. I have not personally received any complaints yet about not being able to post from people wanting to actively participate... CotMan?

I *did* consider asking for special treatment, but have been so pleasantly surprised about the cleanup of various problems I noted last time around (such as off topic nonsense, and the interminable flame wars), that I really didn't mind at all just playing the part I'd been assigned (i.e. Lurker) for the week. It's a good system, and I'm sure that it's contributed to a more civilized and interesting forum.

I'll be posting to the Coffee Wars area as the time approaches, and am looking forward to yet another year of caffeine, beer, and all those unscheduled events (can you say Cisco?).

(shrdlu)

[TheCotMan]

Change in welcome message and new policy exceptions:

Welcome message has been altered. New/changed content is in bold:
Dear username,

You are now at level of Registered User "Lurker" on the Defcon Forums.

You are encouraged to read and follow the rules:
http://forum.defcon.org/showthread.php?t=2855

* [b]With only one exception#, you can't yet Post messages, polls, or use Forum PM:

For the next 7 days, your account is limited* and you are encouraged to lurk in order to understand the social rules and forum rules. As a "Lurking User" you now have access to a long history of posts not visible to non-registered users, and can use the forum search to help you locate posts.

After 7 but less than 14 days, you are granted: limited use to PM (Private Messages on the forums-- a kind of "Forum mail"), access to reply to EXISTING threads (on topic), vote in existing polls, and upload a custom avatar.

After 14 but less than 21 days, you are allowed to start new threads, and set a custom description in your UserCP. (The default is now "Registered User."

After 21 days and some non-negative forum contributions, a slightly larger Forum PM MailBox is made available and you will be able to post new, public events to the event ca