Ideas for Defcon 15

[mfreeck]

So DT asked folks to come up with more ideas to fill some con space. I was really impressed with lockpick village, especially the newbie stations.

A minor idea is to have a small area (it should be visible or it won't get used) as a dedicated breakout area, well labelled, with people highly encouraged to go there and show folks how to do xyz. We may be able to "grow" some good speakers this way. It's possible I may have been able to give a talk on my wearable at one time, but felt way too intimidated by the defcon crowd to even think about it. Maybe put multiple tables and chairs in there so hardware workshops don't have to work on the floor.

Hardware Village - this can contain such things as Robot Village, circuit bending and Newbie Town, with stations on how to solder, how to read a schematic, working with breadboards, etc. I'd like to steer away from really common/low end hardware stuff like taking apart harddrives or case mods. I think this would really help encourage folks who would like to get into hw, but feel intimidated by not having basic skills. How sweet would it be to have station/workshop dedicated to Fun With Gumstix?

With all the amazing work Lost has done with his contest and being so dedicated in trying to get folks into hardware, Hardware Village is a natural extension of what he is already doing. Personally, I nominate Lost and Joe Grand, if they'd like the honor.

Yes, I have to put in a gratuitous plug in for forming a Defcon Borg Collective. There's been some mention of projects DC groups could help propogate and I'd love to see a borg collective develop. If gumstix were used to create a diskless client, a wearable could be made for very cheap (if you used audio as an output device). Yes, there'd definitely be security issues, but hell, that'd be half the fun, since this stuff is gonna have to get ironed out sooner or later. These units would also be very low profile, which would make them more fun and less of a hassle. Imagine going into some place as a flash mob, having one of the server borg running an irc daemon and having everyone communicating that way, enabling the look of functioning as one unit - everybody turning in one direction simultaneously, asking for coffee with one voice, etc. I am sure legitimate uses would turn up as well, such as some borg getting into a talk and others being unable to do so, but being able to get a transcription of the talk from the borg inside. The weak point is that networking would be done over bluetooth, but hey... it's a challenge (security, length of signal vs bulky equipment, etc)!

[Deviant Ollam]

well labelledthis was certainly an issue that i kept on encountering. i know it will get better as we return to the Riv in future years, but it would really be terrific to have signs, some HUGE signs, up on the walls indicating which doorways and rooms are the talk tracks, breakout areas, contest area, etc.

i know that the hotel didn't want anything affixed to the walls, however. and we wouldn't want the expense and risk of placing projectors all over the place in hallways, etc. i have an idea which might work, however... it's not expensive (i think) to make what i believe are called graffiti throws. (not "throwies" which are just LEDs and magnets that you toss onto metal walls, i'm talking about a stencil/projection type design) i don't know if they're LCD based or powered by conventional bulbs, but if focused properly they can be very large and highly visible.

what if we erected, in key places, some sort of "you are here" type signs (maybe out of 4x8 plywood) that show the floorplan, etc. we could even mount the image throwers to the top of these. if placed in a hallway between two speaking rooms you'd have a clear indicator in plain sight and large imagery tossed on the walls on either side.

[Z^2]

I definitely was very lost the whole time, partly this being my first defcon, partly my inability to discern what the schedule/map booklet was saying.

I know that the booklet organization confused me. Displaying events on separate pages (the b/w balls for example) with a small line about which room they're in that you had to hunt for, inside the descriptor of the event, blew out my brain. It would help if instead a room were listed on top of a page, and then on that page there would be a list all the events and times that the events were at. Especially if that were put in the front of the booklet. I know some events were filled in on the map in the back, but I still found myself confused for some reason.

Oh, and if the Riv let you put something up around the door on the walls through which you had to go to get to the dunk-tank, it would look more like somewhere people ought to go (I had no idea that's where it was being held until I saw a mob of people going out there on the last day). Would they let us modify trash-cans to hold up some signs if all else fails? Or possibly color-coded tape arrows on the floors (they let you put down tape to keep people from tripping on cords, so they shouldn't dislike this either)?

[astcell]

Let's add a new dimension. How about picking a lock while sitting on the dunk tank seat, and see if you can finish before the target gets bullseyed?

[converge]

Hardware Village - ... stations on how to solder, how to read a schematic, working with breadboards ... We will have to bug LosT about logistics for this, because it seems like an awesome way to use some of the space mentioned by DT at closing ceremonies. The folks in Lockpick Village really stepped up and kicked ass; the thought of spreading similar knowledge and opportunity within the hardware hacking realm seems like a great way to bring more folks into the fold on this, maybe get more folks building robots or breaking mysteriously brainbending boxen (Winner of converge's Best Contest Evar Award 2006 tm).

[apg88]

I really enjoyed all of the hardware stuff, the bigger breakout area sounds like a great idea too.

[dYn4mic]

I also think a bigger "village" area for hardware and/or lockpicking stuff would be great. This is an excellent example of people teaching other people.. which is what its all about..

What about maybe having some kind of programming competition or some kinda programming "mystery protocol" or something. I think a lot of people have advanced programming skills, or I think should have minor skills in the area.. Seems like this idea could be expanded?

What about having more BoF style areas? (in the capri rooms maybe?) were there's some kind of minimal organization and people brainstorm on solving a problem, breaking some code, ideas and all that kinda thing. I think this is a great idea we can borrow from shmoocon/toorcon.

(more ideas will come... this is what's on the top of my head)

[White_Widow]

how about using washable markers or crayons to write on the walls. and the losers of the contests have to do washing duty, or clean up. and/or just tape up card board signs to the walls, or get the poster cardboard which sells for like 1$ for abundle of like 5, and just tape up the thing with masking or even funner the gray tape. whatever its called. sorry insomnia is starting to set in, and i havent even gone a full night :(

[AcidicA]

5, and just tape up the thing with masking or even funner the gray tape. whatever its called. sorry insomnia is starting to set in, and i havent even gone a full night :(



If you meant Duct tape and could not name it I must only assume you do not visit the south eastern states of U.S. much.:smile:

[IrishMASMS]

how about using washable markers or crayons to write on the walls. and the losers of the contests have to do washing duty, or clean up. and/or just tape up card board signs to the walls, or get the poster cardboard which sells for like 1$ for abundle of like 5, and just tape up the thing with masking or even funner the gray tape. whatever its called. sorry insomnia is starting to set in, and i havent even gone a full night :(

too bad the Riv did not allow anything on the walls - having a mural contest between DCG's would be interesting IMHO.

[IrishMASMS]

Also, at the AP the pool parties gave DJs an opportunity to spin something different than the B&W ball - some were locals, and some were out of towners. The diverse selection is was definitely lacking this year - perhaps something can be arranged for the chioll out area & the outside chill out area?

[PrinceBrand]

How about having receipts printed for people to take back home with them like in previous years. When I picked up my badge I was told that a receipt would be put up on defcon.org immediately following the convention...

Well, if it's there I can't find it. I've looked through the faq, forums and Google searched the site and still no luck.

Anyone have any ideas as I have to turn in my trip expenses today in order to get reimbursed.

Thanks!

-Brand

[jur1st]

1. I think a designated area for post-talk questions and answers would be fantastic. Of course after most talks the presenter gets mobbed with a few questions, but crowd control becomes an issue and having to stand around makes the answers of lower quality.

After the aggressive network defense talk, Maj. Clark was more than happy to answer everyone's questions but the room had to be cleared. Maybe another room similar to the green room or press room could be used for this.

2. I also really missed having the chill out area be next to CTF. There was always something to watch thanks to the filler and there was more room to move around. Maybe some of the skyboxes overlooking it could be used for chill areas in addition to the large room next to the vendor area.

3. There probably should be some large ash trays moved to the areas right outside the entrances to the tracks. This would aleviate the problem of ashing into a plastic cup with water in the bottom which even the smokers know is pretty gross.

4. One of the reasons I was excited to stay at the Riv was DCTV. I know there were some last minute issues with this, however I think that the potential problems with profanity, subliminal horse genetalia, etc. could be mitigated if DCTV was piped only into a single tower of rooms where the con-goers are staying. Maybe another possiblity would be to have DCTV go to rooms over PPV, but have there be no charge for it.

[kallahar]

When the air walls are removed those rooms are absolutely gigantic. Maybe just leave the whole area open (except maybe vendor) and put contest, ctf, chill, break out, etc. there. The biggest problem would probably be noise, but I know that in the contest area it never got too loud, probably due to the high ceilings.

[TheCotMan]

What about maybe having some kind of programming competition or some kinda programming "mystery protocol" or something. I think a lot of people have advanced programming skills, or I think should have minor skills in the area.. Seems like this idea could be expanded?

All this needs is an organizer with excitment, knowledge and drive to contribute to the community like Lost, the people from TOOOL, Deviant Ollam... heck, everyone who was running a contest, working as a Goon, speaking, or hosting parties for everyone else.

We do have contests where coding plays a role:
Defcon Robots, CTF, aCTF, Lost's MysteryBox (closer to hardware than software, but it was reported that 3 languages were included), and probably others that I am missing.

If you see a niche, fill it. Other "games" or contests from elsewhere:
CoreWars with "redcode", the Obfuscated "C" Contest (sometimes discussed at Usenix) more.

What about having more BoF style areas? (in the capri rooms maybe?) were there's some kind of minimal organization and people brainstorm on solving a problem, breaking some code, ideas and all that kinda thing. I think this is a great idea we can borrow from shmoocon/toorcon.
BoF existed in USENIX long before Smoocon or Toorcon, and probably elsewhere long before that. Many professional groups have had clubs or "societies" where members have met to discuss their trade.

The addition of the LP Villiage, and Losts "breakout session" for the robot builds are some really good, recent examples of this. What we do need are more of these, and that will happen if we get more people willing and able to host events or breakout sessions.

The small donation Lost was accepting for the Robot Breakout session, was InSaNe! (Alternating case used here to have this "sound" like it was screamed out by a crazy person with problems controlling the modulation and pitch of their voice.)

I really do think that even an "at-cost" breakout session would be well received at Defcon too. Even a small profit to cover risk for people signing up but not showing up or paying for their spot, and nobody being willing to take their place. Donations to the EFF of profits are even better. People could even be told what they would need to buy/bring to a breakout session, in case they could get a better deal.

For anyone suggesting a new contest, try joining your local DCG and see if you can build support to host a new contest.

[sammo]

How about having receipts printed for people to take back home with them like in previous years. When I picked up my badge I was told that a receipt would be put up on defcon.org immediately following the convention...

Well, if it's there I can't find it. I've looked through the faq, forums and Google searched the site and still no luck.

Anyone have any ideas as I have to turn in my trip expenses today in order to get reimbursed.

Thanks!

-Brand

Yeah, this would be really nice.

[TheCotMan]

how about using washable markers or crayons to write on the walls. and the losers of the contests have to do washing duty, or clean up. and/or just tape up card board signs to the walls, or get the poster cardboard which sells for like 1$ for abundle of like 5, and just tape up the thing with masking or even funner the gray tape. whatever its called. sorry insomnia is starting to set in, and i havent even gone a full night :(

A few problems with these ideas:
1) Nothing adhesive was allowed on the wallpapered walls (risks to peeling off wallpaper once removed.)
2) Once con attendees saw people writing on the walls with pens (knowing they are washable or not) out come the indellible sharpies people use to tag hapless victims that manage to fall asleep in public places at Defcon.

It is good that you are trying to come up with ideas to solve this problem, but these have costs that are too high.

Anyone have any ideas as I have to turn in my trip expenses today in order to get reimbursed.
Yep. See my suggestion here. You can also try photocopying the back of your badge with the printout of the page showing and highlighting the cost of the con.

1. I think a designated area for post-talk questions and answers would be fantastic. Of course after most talks the presenter gets mobbed with a few questions, but crowd control becomes an issue and having to stand around makes the answers of lower quality.
(Good idea)
Ahh, but a Q/A breakout session for post-talk discussion might help clear out the room for the next speaker. :-)

[nous]

A few problems with these ideas:
1) Nothing adhesive was allowed on the wallpapered walls (risks to peeling off wallpaper once removed.)


why not see if they'll try those 3M command adhesive thingies? they work exactly as advertised and would do the job.


nous.

[renderman]

Much discussion was had on Sunday/Monday about things to fill that space:

As mentioned, a specific breakout area for speakers to handle the questions that people have (each track would have a specific post-talk room) for questions, breakout, demo's, whatever. This also removes the glut of people from just outside the doors in the hallways.

The LP village needs more room! A couple skyboxes would rock. One for seminars and teaching, the other for general picking and contests.

Breakout and hands on sessions would be ideal for the smaller rooms. Not nessecarily hardware, but just small training seminars would be cool (i.e. have a stack of backtrack CD's and a wireless net setup and allow people to try cracking it in a lab like setup). Topics I can see being good seminars are software tool howto's and hands on (teach about using metasploit and have a box there to be activly attacked on a seperate (read: safe) lan).

[dYn4mic]

Maybe just leave the whole area open (except maybe vendor) and put contest, ctf, chill, break out, etc. there.

That would be a pretty cool sight. One huge room would have obvious advantages such as ease of movement, lots of things to look at, lots of people, lots of room.
But also its harder to keep things centralized, harder to do security, maybe noise issues... It would be cool though. Maybe try it out pre-con and see...

[sammo]

That would be a pretty cool sight. One huge room would have obvious advantages such as ease of movement, lots of things to look at, lots of people, lots of room.
But also its harder to keep things centralized, harder to do security, maybe noise issues... It would be cool though. Maybe try it out pre-con and see...

I think having Kenshoto share a room would really make it suck for the people associated with the whole CTF business, mainly due to all the audio/video in the room and how things are usually pretty dark...

[dYn4mic]

I think having Kenshoto share a room would really make it suck for the people associated with the whole CTF business, mainly due to all the audio/video in the room and how things are usually pretty dark...

Yeah.. the CTF is the only thing that may not be "compatible".
But, if I was on the CTF (and I plan on it someday soon) I'd want it to be fairly dark.
Helps me focus at least...

[mfreeck]

That would be a pretty cool sight. One huge room would have obvious advantages such as ease of movement, lots of things to look at, lots of people, lots of room.
But also its harder to keep things centralized, harder to do security, maybe noise issues... It would be cool though. Maybe try it out pre-con and see...

Actually, I like the enclosed "village" idea. There are some disadvantages, such as fixed space, but the advantages are they can maximize their space usage without worrying about encroaching on others and a crowd from another area won't spill out and obstruct an unrelated area. Perhaps if you found a way to partition areas, so it still had a "village" feel but was still visible, that would work.

[DJ Jackalope]

How about base jumping off of famous casinos?

[Grendel]

How about base jumping off of famous casinos?


Pass. I choose life.

I would like to chime in a bit, since this was my first time to defcon (which was awesome, btw... thanks for a great time!!). One thing that I expected more of was breakout rooms covering different topics, or at least areas where I could meet people with the same interest. Some topics that come to mind would be pentest tools/techniques, OS-specific issues, network-related issues (VPN, VOIP, etc.), and probably rooms designated for local DC groups (I know, there was one such time slot for this, but I missed it, unfortunately). I could add more to this list, but I hope I've provided a general idea of what I was looking for.

I mention this because even though there were many thousands of people there, I had no idea what I had in common with these people, other than speaker topics. I would have liked to been able to find a place to meet with others that had similar interests in a convenient manner. Even if there had been tables in the common area for this, that would have helped. As it was, I had a great time, but ended up meeting only single-serving friends. Had there been a designated place for the varied specific interests, I probably would have enjoyed it that much more.

[Kai]

They had pre-printed receipts on Thursday, maybe they just ran out?

[dYn4mic]

[...snip...]
As it was, I had a great time, but ended up meeting only single-serving friends. Had there been a designated place for the varied specific interests, I probably would have enjoyed it that much more.

Thanks for the good reply, and clever fight club quote usage. I'd encorage other defcon first timers to respond to this thread especially because of its nature.
Your perspective on things is something that many of us may have trouble thinking of. We can all work to improve the con experiance, but first we must know what should be fixed or improved (if much).

[remad]

This was also my first defcon. If I didn't have friends who had been to a few before I would have been lost when it can to the parties at night. One idea I had was to announce that the hangout areas inside and out would be open at night. This would give a big area to hang out and have a few drinks. They didn't seem to have a problem serving alcohol with <21s in the room during the day so I don't see why it would be diff at night. You could even have the filler videos running on the wall in the room. This would even give more entertainment to the private parties in the skyboxes being able to watch the crowd below. Maybe some mardi gras style action would even start up. Maybe market it as a defcon mardi gras party and encourage costumes?

Just a randumb thought.

Remad

[octalpus]

How about having receipts printed for people to take back home with them like in previous years. When I picked up my badge I was told that a receipt would be put up on defcon.org immediately following the convention...

Well, if it's there I can't find it. I've looked through the faq, forums and Google searched the site and still no luck.

Anyone have any ideas as I have to turn in my trip expenses today in order to get reimbursed.

Thanks!

-Brand


If you can't find it on the MAIN PAGE of defcon.org, in a HIGHLITED section, you probably don't deserve to be reimbursed.

[Voltage Spike]

They didn't seem to have a problem serving alcohol with <21s in the room during the day so I don't see why it would be diff at night.

This is an excellent question, and perhaps one that should be brought up in discussion next year (with regards to the B&W). It is a more sensitive issue for the random parties, but it should be obvious why the hotel relaxes the rules when they are the ones selling the booze.

If you can't find it on the MAIN PAGE of defcon.org, in a HIGHLITED section, you probably don't deserve to be reimbursed.

To be fair to the guy, I believe he posted well before the link was up. Heck, the timestamp on the PDF is 16:19 while that of the post is 10:29 which, even considering likely time zones, is quite a difference.

[Z^2]

So I found myself not knowing quite where to go - I mean, there were things that I wanted to go to, but stuff was spaced so far apart that if I stayed for, say, half a lecture to see what it was about, I might as well stay for the whole thing because by the time that I'd get up and go to another one if I didn't find it interesting, the others would be over. I hear this won't be an issue next year if we do get the rooms that were the dart convension this year, so that will be good. But could the talks be in closer rooms? Track 3 was very far from the others, where we might get more people going to talks if they can float around a general 'presentation area'. Then people in a general 'doing stuff' or 'buying stuff' area can make piles of noise without bothering presenters. (This was my first con, so I don't know if that's how stuff has been in the past or not.)

The main thing is why are things scheduled for the day? I'm running under the assumption that most of the other con-goers hold similar hours to mine, and that most people aren't really awake for any 'morning' sessions of anything, barring of course people who don't sleep. I'm sure people who run, for example, LPcon don't want to hang out there all night long while the parties are going, but 10AM starting time? Could we schedule things for later in the day? People will be awake until 3 or 6AM anyway, and dragging them out of bed earlier in the day to catch various talks/events might just be wasting precious coffee/redbull (at least in my case). Or possibly, for example with the presentations, have more tracks of talks for shorter periods of time (like from noon until five or something)?

[TheCotMan]

So I found myself not knowing quite where to go - I mean, there were things that I wanted to go to, but stuff was spaced so far apart that if I stayed for, say, half a lecture to see what it was about, I might as well stay for the whole thing because by the time that I'd get up and go to another one if I didn't find it interesting, the others would be over. I hear this won't be an issue next year if we do get the rooms that were the dart convension this year, so that will be good. But could the talks be in closer rooms? Track 3 was very far from the others, where we might get more people going to talks if they can float around a general 'presentation area'. Then people in a general 'doing stuff' or 'buying stuff' area can make piles of noise without bothering presenters. (This was my first con, so I don't know if that's how stuff has been in the past or not.)
One of the side-effects of growing, means more space to use, and greater distances to walk.

(Ouch my feet.)

At the Alexis Park, there was opportunity for presentations to be spread even further apart, due to use of portable tents in parking lots, or on the roof, and use of rooms, several twists and turns down hallways away from another room.

Distance to walk from one presentation to another is about the same, but distance to chiil-out spaces, vendor rooms, an Sky Boxes is much further at the Riv.

Even though this extra walking (and bad shoes) lead to sore feet, I'd keep my sore feet and the Riv, just so I didn't have to deal with the lines of the AP, and the risks associated with them, such as not being able to get into a really good presentation.

The best advice for people new to Defcon is hook up with people you knew before Defcon, and who have been to Defcon before. This can be done by visiting you local Defcon Groups.

The main thing is why are things scheduled for the day? I'm running under the assumption that most of the other con-goers hold similar hours to mine, and that most people aren't really awake for any 'morning' sessions of anything, barring of course people who don't sleep. I'm sure people who run, for example, LPcon don't want to hang out there all night long while the parties are going, but 10AM starting time? Could we schedule things for later in the day? People will be awake until 3 or 6AM anyway, and dragging them out of bed earlier in the day to catch various talks/events might just be wasting precious coffee/redbull (at least in my case). Or possibly, for example with the presentations, have more tracks of talks for shorter periods of time (like from noon until five or something)?
There was a time when Defcon was one track, with very little else in the way of official stuff going on, on the side. I am not a goon, or organizer, but as a casual observer, I can say it appears as though there is an attempt to pack as much as possible into the 3 days defcon officially takes place.
So much stuff is packed into Defcon, that new stuff overflows the previous boundaries.
Defcon now "kind of" starts on Thursday, with badges being sold, The Toxic BBQ, and other unofficial pre-con events like The Summit, and other gatherings, which have increased in size.

Just like everyone else, you have to set your priorities. Some people skip sleep for 3 days. Some people plan on visiting a few key presentations, and let everything else happen as they find interest. Some people spend each day in a contest, or multiple contests, or just lounge around, or sleep until the parties warm up.

On the plus side, in the past, certain presentations and topic come up year, after year. This means, the more conferences you attend, and the more Defcons you attend, the fewer the number of presentations that you have not seen in some shape or form. This gives you more time for other Defcon events , contests or parties.

Overwhelming for first timers? Sure, but that leaves more for next year.

[Voltage Spike]

But could the talks be in closer rooms?

It may not jibe with the hacker do-it-yourself approach, but I prefer that the talks be spaced as far apart as possible. The setup provides an excellent opportunity to pass through the do-ing areas (contests, social gatherings) whilst enjoying the see-ing areas (talks). If track 1, 2, and 3 were together, then I, personally, would probably end up walking more due to frequent out-and-back trips between presentations. Furthermore, it can sometimes be difficult to convince friends to leave only to come back, and I like the fact that the two essentially different crowds are forced to interact with each other (it was what helped me get into the con all those years back.)

[artistic_chaos]

i know that the hotel didn't want anything affixed to the walls, however.



If none of the other ideas work, we could use sandwich boards...

[Deviant Ollam]

If none of the other ideas work, we could use sandwich boards...sandwich boards would (in my humble prediction) be almost instantly knocked over and would be hardly readable unless you're right in front of them. i feel very strongly that we should look into solutions that would result in large signage being prominently displayed above head height on the walls, preferably over the doorways.

this could be accomplished either with banners strung between poles or with my "projection" idea (which i feel didn't get enough love) :wink:

seriously, how hard could these things be to make? i've seen them used by small stores in order to project a cup of coffee or a running shoe onto a city sidewalk outside their business. if a mom and pop footwear company can slap one of these things up, surely we can score/make some. i just can't google for them effectively yet because i don't know the appropriate name that they actually are given.

[tequilastrapple]

this could be accomplished either with banners strung between poles or with my "projection" idea (which i feel didn't get enough love) :wink:

I think it's a brilliant idea. Sorry for being tardy with the love-giving. The next time I see one of these, I'll ask what it's called.

I would like to bring up something completely unrelated to the current signage discussion, regarding future improvements for Defcon at the Riviera. If you are a smoker, please don't hate me for what I'm about to say. Just hear me out.

I had a hard time contending with the cigarette smoke at the Riv, especially in the conference area. Even though I avoided high smoke areas (meaning that I had to ban myself from the Black ball and the Friday night penthouse party after only a few minutes – which is a bummer because I am a hot dancer), I had tightness in my chest and soreness when taking deep breaths beginning Friday afternoon, and it became progressively worse through the weekend. This was not a surprise, as it is simply what happens to my body when I am exposed to smoke of any kind – cigarette, campfire, whatever. This problem also prevents me from attending Pumpcon (a small Philly-based annual con) and many other social events.

Okay, enough with the sob story. The point is, I never had this problem at the AP. Am I correct in recalling that smoking was not allowed in the AP conference rooms? Or did the air filtration system simply work a lot better there? And of course, it was easy to avoid smoky parties. Socializing and dancing poolside was a lot more fun than doing so in a dark, loud, and cramped room, anyhow.

I understand and appreciate that smoking is important to a lot of people. I am not trying to propose that smoking be banned in Defcon’s conference spaces. And besides, it’s Riviera policy for smoking to be permitted in its spaces, so even if DC organizers decided to try to limit smoking, I question whether the Riviera powers-that-be would support the enforcement. And of course, smoking policy at private parties is entirely up to the organizers of those parties, which is as it should be.

But does anyone have any suggestions as to what can be done to arrive at fair accommodations in the conference areas and hallways for smokers and non-smokers alike? The only place I was able to go to for relief was to my room, or outside – which, during the heat of the day, is hardly a relief to strained lungs. I would really like for myself and others who share my problem to be able to enjoy future Defcons without feeling ill the whole time.

[TheCotMan]

Am I correct in recalling that smoking was not allowed in the AP conference rooms? Or did the air filtration system simply work a lot better there? And of course, it was easy to avoid smoky parties. Socializing and dancing poolside was a lot more fun than doing so in a dark, loud, and cramped room, anyhow.
I believe you are correct. I remember there was even goon enforcement of the no-smoking in the conference spaces at the AP.

Before the AP, there was so much smoking at Defcon, at the casino venues, you could see clouds of smoke in the conference rooms, and air filtration did not kick in too well. In those days, I coughed up black, brown and eventually white/yellow stuff from my lungsfor about 1.5 weeks, post-con.

As the years have moved forward, the percent of people weaing black tee shirts has gone down, the number of women (visiting in a capacity other than SceneWhore, Sig-O, or other-category-but-still-not--there-as-hackers) has gone up, the number of Feds has *really* gone up (I think this is partly due to talent being turned to the "light/dark side" depending on your point of view), the number of people paid by their company (corporations) to attend has gone up significantly, AND the percent of smokers has gone down. Things have really improved for non-smokers.

does anyone have any suggestions as to what can be done to arrive at fair accommodations in the conference areas and hallways for smokers and non-smokers alike?

Gas masks: they could double as a fettish accessory for people into asphyxiation and air-control S/M (see auto-erotica asphyxiation (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=auto-erotica+asphyxiation&spell=1) as one example.). They could work at the Black Ball, for sure-- especially if you tried to talk through one. However, I'm not sure how well they would work in the conference spaces-- people might hear "Darth Vader" or be reminded of the sounds of someone being kept on life support and get freaked out.

The only place I was able to go to for relief was to my room, or outside – which, during the heat of the day, is hardly a relief to strained lungs. I would really like for myself and others who share my problem to be able to enjoy future Defcons without feeling ill the whole time.
This was the first casino Defcon that I attended where I did not have to cough up black stuff when I got home. For me, this was an improvement.

I don't know what can be done to make a smoking-free zone. I guess 3 small rooms, dedicated to video feeds, which were non-smoking might work for presentations, but that monopolizes 3 rooms for the entire con, and estimation of room size for expected utilization could be ttricky. It also takes away the "community" aspect, and denies the whole in-person Questions and Answers period.

Raising questions and complaints can be good, but it is better to offer suggestions of what you think can be done to fix the problem.

(I am not a goon or organizer, I'm just some forum-jerk with a meaningless high postcount. If you have other ideas, please post them, and generate discussion about them, as there are goons that read these forums. Giving them ideas to solve problems is more advantageous than just finding problems. ;-)

[shrdlu]

Before the AP, there was so much smoking at Defcon, at the casino venues, you could see clouds of smoke in the conference rooms, and air filtration did not kick in too well.

I remember this as well. I'm a non-smoker, and would do my best to either sit in an isolated spot, or else try to pick an area that didn't seem inhabited by smokers. The whole thing was smaller then, so it was easier. DC7 was at the Plaza (I think), and that was tolerable. DC6 was a nightmare, as was DC5. Those years, cigars were fashionable, and every moron on the planet had them.

Things have really improved for non-smokers.

I guess I see that there's a little less smoke this time out than there was then, but I really think that defcon needs to prohibit smoking in the speaking rooms themselves, no matter what the Riv's policy is on it. Nearly everyone can handle being without a cigarette for an hour. I'd even be happy to see the speaker(s) have an exception. I've seen too many terrified speakers; no sense making it worse. If it's in the halls or outside, you can walk away.

I don't know what can be done to make a smoking-free zone. I guess 3 small rooms, dedicated to video feeds, which were non-smoking might work for presentations, but that monopolizes 3 rooms for the entire con, and estimation of room size for expected utilization could be ttricky. It also takes away the "community" aspect, and denies the whole in-person Questions and Answers period.

I believe that *most* people attending are not interested in the "community" aspect. I'm happy to see people that I see once or twice a year, at best, but trying to claim that the 5000+ attendees are a community seems to be an artifice that should be dropped. It's easy to make a smoking-free zone. Go back to the AP rules, and tell them to take it outside. Posting signs on the doors saying no smoking in the conference rooms is pretty easy.

Raising questions and complaints can be good, but it is better to offer suggestions of what you think can be done to fix the problem.

I think that the OP making the suggestion was just a little thrown by the experience of not being able to get away from it. There does seem to be a much greater percentage of smokers in the Defcon attendee group than in the normal geek population. I attend other conferences; these include Toorcon, Shmoocon, and Layerone. I just don't see the number of smokers at those smaller venues. In the normal population, the incidence of smoking is inversely tied to education (i.e. less than high school, 48% smokers, Phd, 6%). I wonder what that says about the number of people smoking at defcon...

I am not a goon or organizer, I'm just some forum-jerk with a meaningless high postcount.

I'd fight you to the wall on this one. I've watched you over the past few months, and I think you are doing great work, helping to glue the conceptual Defcon Forum into something workable.

[tequilastrapple]

I appreciate your thoughtful responses. Thank you for taking me seriously. I had steeled myself for a barrage of “Fuck non-smoking whiners,” à la Chris. But maybe this is still to come... :wink:

Before the AP, there was so much smoking at Defcon, at the casino venues, you could see clouds of smoke in the conference rooms, and air filtration did not kick in too well. In those days, I coughed up black, brown and eventually white/yellow stuff from my lungsfor about 1.5 weeks, post-con.

I think you have come up with the only reason why I can be glad I did not start attending until DC10. My recovery last week only took about three days, and I managed to skip the black/brown phase altogether. Had my first DC been back when the smoke was much worse, I'm not sure that I would have been able to return. Damned wussy lungs. I fully acknowledge that things have really improved for nonsmokers, a fact for which I am extremely grateful.

, but I really think that defcon needs to prohibit smoking in the speaking rooms themselves, no matter what the Riv's policy is on it. Nearly everyone can handle being without a cigarette for an hour. I'd even be happy to see the speaker(s) have an exception.

Perhaps it would be helpful to conduct a forum poll? Something like: should smoking be prohibited in Defcon spaces, and if so, to what degree, i.e. only in speaking rooms (except for the speaker himself/herself - very good point, shrdlu), or also in chillout/contest/vendor/etc rooms? I would be curious to find out how many people are for/against different possibilities. I wil try to post a poll. Hoping I'm not overstepping my bounds if I do so.

I believe that *most* people attending are not interested in the "community" aspect. I'm happy to see people that I see once or twice a year, at best, but trying to claim that the 5000+ attendees are a community seems to be an artifice that should be dropped.

I sincerely hope that you're wrong there. The unique sense of community is something I have always loved about Defcon. Some of that feeling was lost this year with the move from the AP, but I want to believe that it will be regained with the modifications that DT et al will be making in space usage and layout next year. The "community" issue is also why I don't think anyone would want to see segregated spaces for non-smokers vs. smokers.

Even if the smoking policy does not change next year, I am hoping that better signage and a more inviting outdoor chill-out area will encourage smokers to take it outside, thereby reducing the indoor haze.

If all else fails, I'm up for TheCotMan's gasmask idea. It's functional, and it makes a bold statement.

I am not a goon or organizer, I'm just some forum-jerk with a meaningless high postcount.

Yeah right, oh ye of the /dev/null-banning witty retorts.

[TheCotMan]

I remember this as well. I'm a non-smoker, and would do my best to either sit in an isolated spot, or else try to pick an area that didn't seem inhabited by smokers.
I tried that too, as well as laying on the floor to get away from the cloud of smoke, but I'm not sure how much they helped.
As much as I might complain, I am an adult, and continued to visit Defcon, year after year knowing the risks involved with attending. For me, I see how bad it was and at this point, can tolerate the levels of smoke, so I'm not a supporter of a smoking ban, or keeping smoking allowed.

I believe that *most* people attending are not interested in the "community" aspect. I'm happy to see people that I see once or twice a year, at best, but trying to claim that the 5000+ attendees are a community seems to be an artifice that should be dropped. It's easy to make a smoking-free zone. Go back to the AP rules, and tell them to take it outside. Posting signs on the doors saying no smoking in the conference rooms is pretty easy.
I'm not sure I would call it a community anymore, but there is community in Defcon, in the forum of multiple communities.
The corporate-management-types of people tend to find each other, the Feds seem to do very well at spotting each other and hanging out with each other, forum people seem to have several groups that each meet, there are DCG communities, and there are Goon communities, and each goon-type seems to have its own community (security goons, information/speaking goons, etc.)
So, no, there is not one huge community, but a collection of communities.

These communites can be harmed by division and partitioning, such as smoking/non-smoking if separate rooms were used. Resteraunts have had smoking/non-smoking zones... perhaps one side of the room could be smoking, and the other side could be non-smoking? I'm not sure how effective that would be though....

I'd fight you to the wall on this one. I've watched you over the past few months, and I think you are doing great work, helping to glue the conceptual Defcon Forum into something workable.
Heh. It is kind of a joke. I really do prefer to support Defcon in the background, and not be so visible. I've helped people with contests and events with a few small things here and there, under the condition that my specific contributions be kept from the public. However, adding new content to the forums that *works* really requires community participation, not some dictatorial, "THIS IS HOW THINGS WILL BE! AND YOU WILL LIKE IT... OR ELSE." ... So, I must conceed background status in order to inform people of changes, encourage feedback for more changes, and take people's ideas and try to form them into something that most can benefit from.

I hope, that some day, we will have so many useful tools, features and goodies on the forums, that I will be able to step back into the shadows, and help from the background again-- perhaps maintaining what has been added.

There will come a time when I step aside and let a talented person take the role of primary Admin, while I shift to the #2 position, and support them and the other mods.

I had steeled myself for a barrage of “Fuck non-smoking whiners,” à la Chris. But maybe this is still to come...
Sure. That can still happen. I've learned not to push the "no-smoking" issues with family and friends, as it just makes things worse for them, and everyone else. I view it as my problem with the smoke, and when they smoke, I either excuse myself and come back later or tolerate it.


Perhaps it would be helpful to conduct a forum poll? Something like: should smoking be prohibited in Defcon spaces, and if so, to what degree, i.e. only in speaking rooms (except for the speaker himself/herself - very good point, shrdlu), or also in chillout/contest/vendor/etc rooms? I would be curious to find out how many people are for/against different possibilities. I wil try to post a poll. Hope that's okay.
I think polls can be fine, however, you will find most mods don't agree with me. Perhaps I have polled them too many times. ]:>

You can start such a thread, but expect people to post strong opinions about it, and when you add a poll, be sure to add humorous choices that have nothing to do with smoking, as it can make the polling entertaining.

If you make the results public, please state that in your opening post of the thread.

Yeah right, oh ye of the /dev/null-banning witty retorts.
If you think I am witty, you should check out many of the replies from Chris, skroo, Noid and Octalpus... these are great. I try to keep a thought running in the background: "Don't piss these people off!" (heh-heh)

Here is one of my favorite examples. (Let me know if it is not visible. It may be too old/expired for /dev/null listing.)

[signcarver]

perhaps one side of the room could be smoking, and the other side could be non-smoking? I'm not sure how effective that would be though....


I was thinking the possibility of something like that but which side do you make smoking. I know there were a couple of things I attended (hacker jeopardy and at least one other time in that same room) where it was announced that there was no smoking in that room and to go into the hallways... I wasn't sure if it was a joke or not (in the case of jeopardy the announcement sounded like a joke and at least one of the speakers when she said it sounded like she wanted the room smoke free rather than it was a rule and I dont remember any no smoking signs being posted) but I did see a few people actually leave who just lit up but then a few others just lit up right after that. The problem is that if the hallways surrounding the rooms are smoking, any smoking at all in the room will probably linger and spread through the whole room.

Perhaps there could be a track/room that would be no smoking and posted as such. Leave it up to the presenters and see if they have a preference... many speakers probably would prefer a smoke free room while others would probably prefer to smoke while giving their presentation. I was thinking that a smoker should be able to last through an hour session or two without the smoke and most of the non-smokers probably could last an hour in the other smoked filled rooms.

Regardless, for the non-smokers, there should be a place to escape to... perhaps a cool zone misting away in the outside area near the dunking booth and a giant inflatable pool for us to use later than 7:00 and a section with table service serving some refreshing drinks, and grills to allow the toxic bbq to last throughout the con...

Personally I had no problem with the smoke or smoking... I felt the rooms were spacious enough for it not to be a problem.

[Chris]

Interesting. I am probably the most militant Pro-Smoking advocate at DEF CON. I smoke nearly constantly while there. That said, even I think the speaker rooms should be non-smoking. (It should be noted that I have spoken at several DEF CONs and have never lit up while giving my presentation, so if I can do it anyone can) When I did the original Vendor Diagram this year I had intended to put the vendors that smoked on one side of the room and the vendors that didn't on the other side. Didn't work out due to a couple of last minute cancellations that I had to fill and some fucked up shit regarding the Fire Marshal, the hotel and some shit I am not getting into.
Hopefully I will be able to make that happen for next year, but unless DT tells me otherwise the Vendor Area will remain a smoke friendly zone.

Anyway...smoking. Let's be realistic. As it stands, you can smoke almost everywhere in Vegas (Fuckin' A I love Vegas). It is one of the last places in the country (Vegas and DEF CON) that hasn't totally pussified regarding smoking.

How do we accomodate the non-smokers (who I agree should be able to sit through a talk without breathing in half a pack) while maintaining the ability for smokers to enjoy pretty much the last two places on earth that you can smoke without whiny little bitches turning their noses up at you or making bullshit comments?

Seems pretty easy to me.

Talks--Non-smoking. Wait 50 minutes or go outside the room.
Common Areas--Smoking. Sorry, even the Food Court at the Riv allows smoking. I think it's ridiculous to expect us to make the common areas where food is served non-smoking.
Parties--Discretion of those throwing the party (that's just common sense)
CTF, Vendor Area, Contest Area--Smoking allowed. Too many smokers participating in these events.

Trust me when I say that prohibiting smoking ANYWHERE is a concession as far as I'm concerned. I think not only should smoking be allowed everywhere, but everyone in those everywhere should BE smoking...constantly. If you can't handle smoking you are probably a pussy anyway.:biggrin:

[Varjeal]

Sorry to stray a bit from the current discussion, but since nOOb's to DEFCON were asked to add their $.02....here's mine....

Being new to DEFCON certainly presented some challenges:

1. Signage...a lot has been said earlier about this topic, so I'll just mention that whatever can be done to improve how/where people are directed would be a bonus.

2. Not knowing anyone by face...this of course rectified itself as the weekend wore on and people introduced themselves, which was mega cool. Thanks to all those who organized and looked after things as well.

3. Space. Not knowing what to expect for the LP village, and having learned a lot over that weekend, I'd certainly put in my vote for far more space (preferrable another skybox) for the Lockpicking village. (it was pretty cool to have a balcony to go veg on for a few minutes to cool off. With all the new folk (to picking that is) we could have easily had a weekend full of different speakers doing mini-talks on the subject, and there would be a definite benefit in having it seperate from the contest/breakout area. It would also be cool if the LPCON could occur a bit closer to the rest of the village so we wouldn't have to shut it down to go watch....that or have it televised in the skybox's which would also be pretty cool.

4. Talks: Not being a digital hacker like most of you are, I was suprised that Deviant or someone else didn't have a "track" or major presentation on basic/advanced lock picking. Marc's & Matts, as well as Eric's talk were excellent however.

Of course, since I've made all these points I'll also offer my services as well as those of LSI to help out in whatever we can do to make things better such as providing speakers, demos, prizes, etc.

[artistic_chaos]

...and most of the non-smokers probably could last an hour in the other smoked filled rooms.



Not so much, unfortunately. Some people don't mind much, but some people are severely affected by it. For example, I can hold out for awhile as long as the smoke isn't being blown directly in my face, but my friend can barely tolorate being in the casino at all.

[converge]

I am a non-smoker. No interest in smoking. No interest in stopping others, but witnessed the loss of my grandfather to lung cancer, abhor the strong stench, and otherwise just don't care to suck on a stick all day.. caffeine and calories are enough for my dependency list. Here's what I had to say:

Seriously .. with all of the things in Vegas that can kill me and considered .. I suspect second hand smoke is about 5mm below my nutsack on the scale of shrug. I can understand the theoretical argument for speaker rooms .. since they are closed and static, but they are so large that it really doesn't matter except to those that are pissy about seeing people light up inside a building for once. Dr., we need to some sand extracted from their woohoos stat.

Now.. to add some context to my flare; At one point in childhood, being near *any* form of smoke would cause me to have breathing issues.. I have grown out of this for the most part, but I'm still generally a little more sensitive than most. I did not have any issues in ANY of the places I went (and I even attended multiple talks this year, first time ever!). *shrug* I can understand the plight of those that cannot be around it; it does suck, but nothing about Defcon and smokers has changed since I started attending at DC10. I think the change between AP and Riviera is more minimal than many believe. The biggest contrast was seeing people light up indoors.. something that most folks aren't normalized to since the staunch bans over the past decade or so.

In theory, I'm in agreement with Chris. In actuallity I think this topic is overblown. In honesty, I don't really care because 1) I don't smoke, see above 2) I don't have a problem with other people smoking 3) I don't think I should dictate whether or not others do .. smokers are generally real considerate in all cases that may rub against this 4) I don't think a 'problem' existed.

[cashmoney]

Subject matter break-outs would be nice. Topics ranging from hardware to software...lock-picking to war-driving (or rocketing :biggrin: )

[TheCotMan]

Subject matter break-outs would be nice. Topics ranging from hardware to software...lock-picking to war-driving (or rocketing :biggrin: )

For such things, the space is and was available, but what we need are volunteers to lead such breakout sessions.

I believe there were two "chill-out" skyboxes that could easily be utilitzed by anyone wishing to bring people upstairs to demonstrate things , as impromptu breakout session spaces, for small groups. Additionally, breakout sessions could happen anywhere, as demonstrated by LoST/Lostboy with the hardware breakout session that took place on the contest floor (literally.)

Breakout sessions were suggested for DC14, and the use of the LP village was a great way to break into this BoF-like breakout session.

So... how do we encourage knowledgable people at Defcon to allocate resources to planning, and dedicate some of their con-time to leading breakout sessions? It can take some work, organizing the event, dealing with signup lists (for popular sessions) and being active on the forums, or elsewhere to encourage members. It also means, being on-the-ball when it comes to providing the necessary information to Russ, BlackBeetle, Grfiter, and others when requested, and on-time.

Ideas are welcome.

[Chris]

For such things, the space is and was available, but what we need are volunteers to lead such breakout sessions.

I believe there were two "chill-out" skyboxes that could easily be utilitzed by anyone wishing to bring people upstairs to demonstrate things , as impromptu breakout session spaces, for small groups. Additionally, breakout sessions could happen anywhere, as demonstrated by LoST/Lostboy with the hardware breakout session that took place on the contest floor (literally.)

Breakout sessions were suggested for DC14, and the use of the LP village was a great way to break into this BoF-like breakout session.

So... how do we encourage knowledgable people at Defcon to allocate resources to planning, and dedicate some of their con-time to leading breakout sessions? It can take some work, organizing the event, dealing with signup lists (for popular sessions) and being active on the forums, or elsewhere to encourage members. It also means, being on-the-ball when it comes to providing the necessary information to Russ, BlackBeetle, and others when requested, and on-time.

Ideas are welcome.


I also love the idea of breakout sessions and thing what LoST did this year was awesome! I think the biggest hurdle regarding the breakouts is getting the word out that one is happening/going to happen.

Forget about the speakers...my concern is for the attendees. How do we get the word to them about upcoming breakouts? They generally happen pretty quickly and if you aren't in the right place at the right time, you are kind of hosed.

I really don't know what the solution to this is? The Info Booth? Perhaps, but then people have to come by the Info Booth several times a day to see if there is a session they want to go to. There must be a way, I'd love to hear folks' ideas.

[TheCotMan]

I also love the idea of breakout sessions and thing what LoST did this year was awesome! I think the biggest hurdle regarding the breakouts is getting the word out that one is happening/going to happen.

Forget about the speakers...my concern is for the attendees. How do we get the word to them about upcoming breakouts? They generally happen pretty quickly and if you aren't in the right place at the right time, you are kind of hosed.

I really don't know what the solution to this is? The Info Booth? Perhaps, but then people have to come by the Info Booth several times a day to see if there is a session they want to go to. There must be a way, I'd love to hear folks' ideas.

A working ical tool could solve some of this. A separate ical for each type of thing could help, and people could subscribe to them.

ical supports things like, lists of people subscribed (for events planned in advance) , resource requirements, and room-allocations. With the proper ical tools, doing things like rescheduling 3 tracks of speakers can be as easy as selecting all events in a day, and dragging them down 2 hours.

ical allows for centralized control of specific calendars (such as would be desired with speaker-tracks) and other calendars which can be semi-authoritative, with the only users allowed to add items/change items be required to authenticate. It also allows for a an "open calendar" where anyone can create any event or delete any event.

Multiple ical calendars can be built and served. Integration of information booth schedule data to pull from the same ical data, could allow for a public "no-tech" listing, and for those people with computers or PDA that support ical import, direct immediate access.

I have had plans for a long time, to try to build a WebDAV available ical repository on the forums, and have the forums be able to import (with restrictions) ical events to the forum calendar, and perhaps have ical calendars for which the forums are authoritative, be exportable.

Frankly, the forum calendar interface SUCKS for planning speaker tracks. Apple's iCal, MS Outlook (latest versions), and the mozilla tool (SunBird IIRC) all have much nicer interfaces-- especially for mass-rescheduling.

The forums don't need to be the place where all ical's are stored, but are an option.

ical RFC for events supports things like GPS coordinates (even though not all clients support this) with the GEO specificiation, and most modern scheduling systems can at least import ical.

Export from the forums is working right now. Import is quite a bit more complicated, and won't be able to support all ical features for import. I have not had time to work on this lately.

[hackajar]

What about reaching out to promters for some barter system for video content?

I was thinking abou this for a while now, and was wonder what you thought.

Think about it, let's take...Music video's for example.

Say an indie label like "Fueled by Ramen" or "Victory Records" has a well known band (Fall Out Boy, Panic! At the Disco, etc) that people would want to see video's for. Due to licence issues can't. You could ask the label "Can we have rights to show vide x, which people know and love, and in turn we will also show y and z, which people DON'T know, or want more exposure". Could this not work with other video related content? Thoughts?

[Deviant Ollam]

What about reaching out to promters for some barter system for video content?while that has the potential to work, it gets a wary thumbs down from me simply because it legitimizes a horrid system that deserves to die.

[big chopper]

I thought the "Dart Throwing Village" was strangely out of place.
--BC,

[jeremycec]

I would really like to see some custom Riviera Defcon chips this year like these (http://www.rivierahotel.com/gaming_chips.asp?offset=0).

Jeremy

[Vog]

There are several competitive events at Defcon, as we all know, and the winners from all those events get their 15 seconds of fame during the award presentations and sometimes even the coveted black badge. Being part of the DC208 crew that was awarded the buffalo bills award last year, for placing second in Hacker Jeapordy for as long as I can remember, I would like to see longtimers like g4lt, Anonpoet, and Cute Skunk have a chance at getting their 15 seconds of fame for sometime other than always placing 2nd.

I propose that a Hacker Olympics be started for those DC groups that participate in multiple events with an over all hacker award going to the winner. So even though you place 2nd in Ken Shoto's CTF and Hacker Jeapordy (ahem) you would still get points towards an over all hacker title awarded at the end of the con.

So a series of qualifying team events (ctf, actf, jeapordy, scavenger hunt etc...) would need to be listed and then a points system established so that a running tally can be kept through the con. There are of course problems with this picture because not everyone qualifies for entry into every event, but who said things had to be fair, if everyone can apply, that's all that matters. I don't see people bitching about locals having a leg up on everyone else in the scavenger hunt... If this idea gets a positive reaction then I'll create another thread to go into more detail.

Cheers,
Vog

[TheCotMan]

There are several competitive events at Defcon, as we all know, and the winners from all those events get their 15 seconds of fame during the award presentations and sometimes even the coveted black badge. Being part of the DC208 crew that was awarded the buffalo bills award last year, for placing second in Hacker Jeapordy for as long as I can remember, I would like to see longtimers like g4lt, Anonpoet, and Cute Skunk have a chance at getting their 15 seconds of fame for sometime other than always placing 2nd.

I propose that a Hacker Olympics be started for those DC groups that participate in multiple events with an over all hacker award going to the winner. So even though you place 2nd in Ken Shoto's CTF and Hacker Jeapordy (ahem) you would still get points towards an over all hacker title awarded at the end of the con.

So a series of qualifying team events (ctf, actf, jeapordy, scavenger hunt etc...) would need to be listed and then a points system established so that a running tally can be kept through the con. There are of course problems with this picture because not everyone qualifies for entry into every event, but who said things had to be fair, if everyone can apply, that's all that matters. I don't see people bitching about locals having a leg up on everyone else in the scavenger hunt... If this idea gets a positive reaction then I'll create another thread to go into more detail.

Cheers,
Vog

How would a scoring system work? Would more weight be placed in scores of certain event instead of others? What events would be included? Who would run the final numbers after scrabling around to get information on the placements of various winners in all of the contests after they were over, but before closing ceremonies?

Expand this idea with more thoughts and suggestions. Let's see where it goes. If you get more responses, I can shear the related posts into "New Ideas" which is under the Contests/Events section as a separate forum.

[converge]

I think Defcon 15 should have a contest that goes something like this. x teams are formed to compete in a challenge of awkward feet... something that goes against every grain in our online existance.

Teach.

Contest runners find and, through painful measure, certify the limited skills of x skript kiddies attending Defcon, one for each participating team. Contest runners on the first day of Defcon present the desired outcome/contest format. Each team of skilled haxor then has the weekend to pump their randomly assigned patron with as much knowledge and skill as humanly possible (whether systems exploitation, SE, lockpicking, etc) ... tailored to that teams strategy for winning the contest at the end, where only the prepped and groomed haxors in training can actually make the win for the entire team. This could include forced attendance of talks, participation in certain events for practice, hanging out in certain breakout areas (Villages) etc.. none of the above, or other more creative means. Final contest is held at the end of Sunday before Awards Ceremony where results are announced.

Individual gets recognized for their learning ability and skill, team gets recognized for their 1337 skills as well as their ability to bring others up to speed.

It's CTF meets Olympics meets Breakout Session meets Junkyard Wars meets Defcon.

Spoonman?

[mage2]

A idea, what about a low power FM station that could broadcast updates every hour or so? Sooner for those last minute sessions. I am pretty sure almost everyone has a fm radio somewhere available , that along with a projector/website at the info booth should keep the masses informed as well as could be expected. The transmitter could also be located at the info booth. Of course this could be subject to abuse, like someone transmitting on the same freq with false data. But the data could be verified by the info booth.

What do you think?



I also love the idea of breakout sessions and thing what LoST did this year was awesome! I think the biggest hurdle regarding the breakouts is getting the word out that one is happening/going to happen.

Forget about the speakers...my concern is for the attendees. How do we get the word to them about upcoming breakouts? They generally happen pretty quickly and if you aren't in the right place at the right time, you are kind of hosed.

I really don't know what the solution to this is? The Info Booth? Perhaps, but then people have to come by the Info Booth several times a day to see if there is a session they want to go to. There must be a way, I'd love to hear folks' ideas.

[Voltage Spike]

A idea, what about a low power FM station that could broadcast updates every hour or so?

Defcon Radio (http://www.defconradio.org) was around for years, but the organizer (dmz, I believe) was unable to attend last year.

[LosT]

It is hard enough creating a tier based contest, much less bringing all contests together this way...

LosT

[Vog]

I think Defcon 15 should have a contest that goes something like this. x teams are formed to compete in a challenge of awkward feet... something that goes against every grain in our online existance.

Teach.

Contest runners find and, through painful measure, certify the limited skills of x skript kiddies attending Defcon, one for each participating team. Contest runners on the first day of Defcon present the desired outcome/contest format. Each team of skilled haxor then has the weekend to pump their randomly assigned patron with as much knowledge and skill as humanly possible (whether systems exploitation, SE, lockpicking, etc) ... tailored to that teams strategy for winning the contest at the end, where only the prepped and groomed haxors in training can actually make the win for the entire team. This could include forced attendance of talks, participation in certain events for practice, hanging out in certain breakout areas (Villages) etc.. none of the above, or other more creative means. Final contest is held at the end of Sunday before Awards Ceremony where results are announced.

Individual gets recognized for their learning ability and skill, team gets recognized for their 1337 skills as well as their ability to bring others up to speed.

It's CTF meets Olympics meets Breakout Session meets Junkyard Wars meets Defcon.

Spoonman?

Funny you mention that, crickett from DC208 is trying to put together a local Con in SE Idaho that addresses that very concept. http://wargamez.org/ (http://wargamez.org/). I'm not trying to plug the con but we can probably use the experience of the con as a template for how one could be run at Defcon.

[mage2]

Yes DefconRadio has been around for awhile. I think it has been so far under utilized. To be honest I knew it was there, I dont think I ever listened to it.
This could increase the number that listen and at the same time increase the update coverage. Anything that requires a connection to the net could be a problematic mostly because Defcon's network is well known for downtime and it is the most hostile non contest related network ever. Projecting scrolling updates on a wall would only inform those that were in the room.

But using a radio does have its shortcomings, only those actively listening at the time of the announcement would be informed. I think that a many angle approach would be the most effective. I wonder what the person that ran DefconRadio thinks about the radio idea.





Defcon Radio (http://www.defconradio.org) was around for years, but the organizer (dmz, I believe) was unable to attend last year.

[converge]

iirc, DMZ has long offered Defcon Radio participation to anyone willing to put forth effort and time to making it kick even more ass. As one (generally quite busy) man he is limited in attendance and resources .. I would highly encourage checking through last year's posts that he left (between April and con, iirc) and consider pursuing it.. get in touch with him, etc.

/me adds DMZ to his beer list for this year in hopes it might bring him back

[nak]

I ordered the Free Radio Berkeley 1 watt PLL (http://www.freeradio.org/store/frb_kits.html#exciter) and 15 watt amp (http://www.freeradio.org/store/frb_kits.html#amplifiers), filter and brick enclosure before defcon last year, once I heard DMZ couldnt make it. It arrived just as I was unpacking the stuff in my room.

If anyone has put one of these together successfully, or knows someone who has, please tell me. I've soldered the PCBs but I have some questions... like "What is the R7+ resistor?"

I'll see if I can get the everything working before next defcon.

[bluknight]

Funny you mention that, crickett from DC208 is trying to put together a local Con in SE Idaho that addresses that very concept. http://wargamez.org/ (http://wargamez.org/). I'm not trying to plug the con but we can probably use the experience of the con as a template for how one could be run at Defcon.

Funny that you mention this, as I would love to attend something this close to where I live in SE Montana.

[Surreal]

So DT asked folks to come up with more ideas to fill some con space. I was really impressed with lockpick village, especially the newbie stations.


Lockpick village _was_ great.

I've got an idea that would amuse me somewhat, but I haven't put a lot of thought into the logistics. I'm thinking of a Network Attack Village. An air-gapped network with one or more hosts running a selection of targets under VMware or other free virtualization setups.

It would be a place you could plug in, run Nessus, Metasploit, or Wireshark, Nepenthes, boot up Linux S.T.D, practice/learn some scripting and netcat-fu, etc.etc. and, optionally, indulge in behaving like a drunken script kiddie for awhile without the legal repercussions. Like the network setup for one of those Learn To Haxor classes - a playground for the unwashed masses who don't get into CTF or Amateur CTF. Heck, maybe charge $1.00 for 5 or 10 minutes playtime and donate the proceeds (over costs?) to the E.F.F.

Make the VMs nonpersistant and reset the whole shebang or portions of it periodically. It could run donated, licensed copies of everyone's favorite Practice Target OS, some older or misconfigured Linuxes...

Just a thought. Sigh... August is coming mighty slow this year, isn't it?

Surreal

[astcell]

We need something in the pool having to do with pirates.

[mage2]

A ship possibly? How about hoisting the flag from somewhere? a pirate treasure chest?

A plank that could be used to make other walk da plank!

Arrrrr.


We need something in the pool having to do with pirates.

[Dark Tangent]

Well it is starting to get to be that time.

I'm working on the new floor plan lay out for this year, and it looks like we have more rooms this year for break outs or maybe 1/2 or full day mini trainings.

Put on your thinking caps, and I'll post the floor plan in a new thread early next week.

Also if you book a hotel room they are trying to put all the con attendees in one tower who want to. That should make angering the 'norms a easier.

[TheCotMan]

Well it is starting to get to be that time.

I'm working on the new floor plan lay out for this year, and it looks like we have more rooms this year for break outs or maybe 1/2 or full day mini trainings.

Put on your thinking caps, and I'll post the floor plan in a new thread early next week.

Also if you book a hotel room they are trying to put all the con attendees in one tower who want to. That should make angering the 'norms a easier.

You know... you could post that as an image on the pics server, and people running other events, or looking to meet can download, alter and upload copies with modifications showing an "X" or some other symbols to designate meeting locations. (Like those Toxic BBQ organizers.)

I also added support in the forums for the "[" and "pics=" and "]" where pics=#SOMEINT# to reference loading of a picture from pics here. (I *think* this tries to follow the http-> http and https->https for the forums session to load the pics image using the same protocol as the user's forum session.)

Use of "["pics=#INT"]"comment"[" and "/pics" and "]" described here:
http://forum.defcon.org/misc.php?do=bbcode#pics

[Edit: added]
Sorry. This adds a link, not an img tag. I'll look to add support for that too.

[Nikita]

You know what, I would like to see an improv "theatresports" style game. Very similar to who's line is it anyway. I've meet a lot of defcon folk who are just plain hilarious and quick witted. I wouldnt be surprised if there are a lot of people who could do it, would want to, and/or had experience.

We could make the audience suggest things of a techincal or "hacking" nature, you must use this buzzword, making the game that much harder. There would be two teams, a gong system, and audience participation.

For example we pick someone in the audience both teams act out a scene in which they must inflict the most FUD to audience member and then he/she decides which team did the best job. It would have to be funny of course.

A nice game of "what are you doing?" could be endlessly funny. That is where you pantomime a activity and another team member asks you what you are doing and you reply with "port scanning the nsa" and it goes on and on... Hacker comedy hour, what is better than that?

There are so many games we could play, the whole event need not be more than 1 hour the most, staged at the dunk tank area, 10-16 players, a few judges and a "game master" (hehe) in order to compete you have to put up a small donation (no less than 5, no high limit) to the EFF.

How you win....
The winning team gets to take the combined amount of the donation money and pay to push the button to dunk members of the losing team. (10$ to push the button, if we can arrange the discount ) How much they can afford is up to them because there is a second round of dunking they have to budget in. There will be 3 special guest dunkees,( think like DT, Priest, Grifter, a speaker) The opposite team picks one of three cards, 10 bucks, 40 bucks, 50 bucks to determine how much it will cost to dunk and then another card to determine who will be the dunkee.

This could be cool, i just thought of it now so im sure there would be things to work out, and im pretty sure i can convince people to get involved. Plus all the money goes to the EFF, the winning team getting to dunk people. It could bring some attention to the dunktank area too.

What do you think? would you be interested?

[DaKahuna]

We need something in the pool having to do with pirates.

hell, I'd settle for having the pool open and more accessable. It's just not the same without free and open access to the pool.

[Deviant Ollam]

hell, I'd settle for having the pool open and more accessable. It's just not the same without free and open access to the pool.i agree 100%. i miss the pools terribly... they were the best aspect of the alexis park, the layout of the grounds encouraged casual meetups and chance encounters by the water.

[mage2]

DefconDaycare.
Last year we brought our son and noticed that many other attendees are now spawning.
We thought about having a defcon daycare type thing where we could leave the kid for a little bit so that the mother and father could have some time off.

We speculated that , itll be run by volunteers, either the SO's.. or another form of "goons", but made for daycare. we could call them mannies if theyre guys!
but anyway..
we could either have a hotel room specifically for the "day care".. with whoever signs up to use it, pitches in to cover the cost of the room. or, we could get in contact with a local daycare, and see if they would like to make extra money by providing us with care over that weekend. however, i dont think they would be able to do so overnight.

as for the SOs volunteering, it should be required that if people want to use the day care, they need to put in volunteer hours as well. (unless there are plenty of volunteers without that being necessary)

This could give a little time off for the geeks with familys.
Any comments?

[big chopper]

DefconDaycare.
Last year we brought our son and noticed that many other attendees are now spawning...

Any comments?

Hmm. Should we encourage people to bring kids to vegas?
A hacker conference at the Riv no less?

There isn't much for kids to do in Vegas, outside of asking why there are pictures of nude ladys on the cabs.
--bc,

[converge]

DefconDaycare Hmmm... kind of like a summercamp to slowly introduce your offspring to drinking, smoking, gambling, social engineering and electronic domination. ... this could have merit.. this could prove more useful than private school.

[Chris]

DefconDaycare.


I can't stress enough how bad an idea I think this is.

[Rance]

Why day care? If your going to scar them for life at least make them useful. Make them wear little flying monkey costumes and let them serve drinks.:cool: But the question is do you really want a bunch of strangers watching your kids?

Chris I'm sure this is the worst idea.

[theprez98]

I'm not planning on bringing any of my kids to Vegas!

[mage2]

The idea is not to scar the kids for life. The idea is not for strangers to be watching them either. Its more so that the parents could get together and give each other time away from the kids. Even if they do not give each other time away. The parents could meet and the kids could play together.
I know Priest had his family with him and I saw others. Last year I know my SO had to watch the kid for the weekend most of the time. I am sure that commonly happens.

Thats why I opened the idea for others to have ideas. For instance getting a local daycare to be a part of it or hiring a local baby sitter or something like that. It may be a bad idea and never happen. But at this stage it is just a idea. And is open to criticism or helpful ideas.

[Rance]

Ok some positive criticism, using certified daycare officials is good, negative critism daycares often have a ton of toys and room for the kids to play with and a limit to the number of kids per room so what happens when you run out of room for the kids to play? You could keep tacking on rooms but if you have one kid in one room with one person watching him that would well i'll let you think up a word for it. The best idea would be to Just leave your kids with aunt so and so.

[DaKahuna]

The only kid I would even consider brining to DefCon is myself :)

[liberator]

I also love the idea of breakout sessions and thing what LoST did this year was awesome! I think the biggest hurdle regarding the breakouts is getting the word out that one is happening/going to happen.

Forget about the speakers...my concern is for the attendees. How do we get the word to them about upcoming breakouts? They generally happen pretty quickly and if you aren't in the right place at the right time, you are kind of hosed.

I really don't know what the solution to this is? The Info Booth? Perhaps, but then people have to come by the Info Booth several times a day to see if there is a session they want to go to. There must be a way, I'd love to hear folks' ideas.

How about some kind of SMS or other text-to-cellphone notification? I'm an old enough fossil to not be familiar with the logistics of transmitting this. Broadcast? Subscription? I don't know. (If you know about 5U4GB, 805, 6L6, 6146B, etc. then you know where I'm coming from).

One challenge may be that people don't want their SMS / cell phone numbers in somebody's database, but I would think that a workaround for that has already been developed (?). If not, maybe it's time for me to learn about SMS and develop the next killer app. :smile:

[converge]

hmmm... I know many providers will translate email sent to yournumber@theirfuckedupdomain.com and resend to your handset as an sms. In these cases, Infobooth could interface RSS to a mailer based on subscribed addys, sending event updates to your phone as they happen. In fact, they could create multiple lists to isolate folks interested in talk updates, contest updates, breakout sessions, random con announces, etc. ... Then pray that the scribe list doesn't make it out to the mass slackers waiting for that kind of opportunity...

Another option would be for them to export the RSS feed to a publicly accessible server.. allowing con attendees, defcon radio, defcon by phone, etc direct subscribe access to the feeds that they are generating and using for their gurucrazyknowledge.

[liberator]

hmmm... I know many providers will translate email sent to yournumber@theirfuckedupdomain.com and resend to your handset as an sms. In these cases, Infobooth could interface RSS to a mailer based on subscribed addys, sending event updates to your phone as they happen. In fact, they could create multiple lists to isolate folks interested in talk updates, contest updates, breakout sessions, random con announces, etc. ...

Yes, this was my thought as well. A further distinction could be a "moderated" set of lists (i.e. low volume, with traffic generated only by "official" DEFCON goons), and an "unmoderated" set of lists which anyone could post to. Drunken ramblings and flames may make unmoderated lists all but unusable.

Then pray that the scribe list doesn't make it out to the mass slackers waiting for that kind of opportunity...

I was thinking that one possible security workaround would be for the users to first create a throwaway email account on one of the free services, which they then configure to autoforward incoming content to their SMS email bridge. That way when the DEFCON SMS server gets hacked (after all, it will be the defacto biggest CTF prize), only their throwaway account is exposed. The attacker then has to also hack the free email provider, or social engineer the user, before he gets their SMS email bridge info.

Optionally the throwaway email account could autoforward only content from a specific address, e.g. XXX@rss.defcon.org or some such, so that spam doesn't go to the phone.

Of course this extra step of including the throwaway account is one more hassle, but that's a cost / benefit tradeoff that people can individually evaluate and choose or not if desired.

Bigfoot (http://www.bigfoot.com/ef/en/infopage.jsp?show=forwarding.default) has such an forwarding service, but I quit using them years ago because of intolerable delays. That latency may well be fixed by now, but they have introduced daily limits, so that's a show stopper IMHO. I'm sure that many other services exist that would all work fine.

Another option would be for them to export the RSS feed to a publicly accessible server.. allowing con attendees, defcon radio, defcon by phone, etc direct subscribe access to the feeds that they are generating and using for their gurucrazyknowledge.

I would think that this would be necessary to keep the upkeep manageable.

Again, I'd be surprised if this problem hasn't already been solved a million times. This seems like a universal need for any big convention, which Las Vegas alone is built on these days. Tour groups and many other organizations would find this indespensable, which tells me that it's probably already been figured out in an elegant way.

[shrdlu]

Thats why I opened the idea for others to have ideas. For instance getting a local daycare to be a part of it or hiring a local baby sitter or something like that. It may be a bad idea and never happen. But at this stage it is just a idea. And is open to criticism or helpful ideas.

At the risk of making myself VERY unpopular, I'm going to suggest strongly that you leave your kids at home. If you can't do that, consider that they are going to hear and see things that I NEVER would have let my daughter see at that age. I realize that you said daycare, but that also means you think that there's places that the little dears will fit right in. They won't. Really.

Children have their place, but you might want to think about whose interest you are serving here. The hotel(s) usually offer sitters (it might take prior arrangement), and those peopler are licensed and trustworthy. I would suggest that if you're bringing young, impressionable little creatures, that you shouldn't even be staying in the defcon block of rooms. The Embassy Suites (the one over by the Alexis Park) is very pleasant, and there's no casino. They are family friendly, and there are others just as good (but I have experience with that one).

If you're going to bring your family, be considerate, both of your family, and of the rest of us.

[theprez98]

At the risk of making myself VERY unpopular, I'm going to suggest strongly that you leave your kids at home.
I wouldn't say that makes you unpopular at all. I have 3 kids and wouldn't consider bringing them to DC. Unless I'm completely alone, and then we'd be very unpopular together.

[LosT]

I am not sure how many break-out sessions happened last year- I ran one right in the middle of the contest area- right on the floor- I had more people wanting to participate than I had hardware with me- and I got some hardware into the hands of people who might not have otherwise picked up a uController and start working with one-

A few questions: Interest in a break out again this year? (Like I did last year)- Would people be willing to pay for the cost to cover materials? (Last year people got $200 kits for like $20- I had the kits donated)-

We had very little advertising for breakouts last year, I just posted a few things on the forums here, and then just shouted out to the room, "Hey, I'm starting a breakout session"-

Thoughts? Anyone who attended wish to comment?

LosT

[mage2]

I was one of the persons waiting for the breakout. I knew about it from being in the contest and mostly from you talking about it here. My friends and I were there and paid the donation. I have the bot on my desk right now. I loved the session and would be very interested in another.

There are a few changes that would help if there is going to be another one.
I do think tables and chairs would be a good improvement, as would a set time and place . I know personally that a $200 fee for a breakout session is a bit on the high side and I would have to know about it before con to try have the money. The cost is part of the reason I did not already have a micro controller. But a smaller donation like last year was great. Even if it was a bit more than last year it would be worth it to me.

Getting the info out would be good also, I know this has been and is being talked about for methods of getting the info out to the masses.

I would love to have more hands on breakout sessions, I have been pondering the idea of running one myself. And I plan to try to get some equipment donated if possible.




I am not sure how many break-out sessions happened last year- I ran one right in the middle of the contest area- right on the floor- I had more people wanting to participate than I had hardware with me- and I got some hardware into the hands of people who might not have otherwise picked up a uController and start working with one-

A few questions: Interest in a break out again this year? (Like I did last year)- Would people be willing to pay for the cost to cover materials? (Last year people got $200 kits for like $20- I had the kits donated)-

We had very little advertising for breakouts last year, I just posted a few things on the forums here, and then just shouted out to the room, "Hey, I'm starting a breakout session"-

Thoughts? Anyone who attended wish to comment?

LosT

[converge]

I think part of the success was in the cheap materials. It was VERY cool that folks walked away with a robot 10x the value, but in all honesty I think part of the success was cost of commitment. $200 to hop in a breakout session that may or may not turn out successful (for myself) is a big commitment. $20 in Vegas is a breakfast burrito sampler and not even a question for dropping on a cool diversion in skill experimentation (ie, hey, I think I'll pick up a solder iron and burn something for the first time!)

I'm not saying that success depends on outrageously generous donated goods .. but that cost of involvement should stay lower. Lets face it, the breakout session is ultimately the cool pitch to learn hands on, even if its just a cheap LCD, a board, and some wires. If folks are doing it exclusively for the hardware discount then the wrong folks are consuming space of the breakout to begin with.

NOT to downplay the cool robot of last year. That thing is frickin awesome man.

[mage2]

I was thinking about doing a breakout on soldering, just a simple hands on. I am working on getting the irons together. I know I can not afford to buy 50 weller irons, but I am going to see if they might donate them or something similar. Would there be a interest in a basic soldering breakout?

I love the robot also, It was and is alot of fun. thanks LoST.


I think part of the success was in the cheap materials. It was VERY cool that folks walked away with a robot 10x the value, but in all honesty I think part of the success was cost of commitment. $200 to hop in a breakout session that may or may not turn out successful (for myself) is a big commitment. $20 in Vegas is a breakfast burrito sampler and not even a question for dropping on a cool diversion in skill experimentation (ie, hey, I think I'll pick up a solder iron and burn something for the first time!)

I'm not saying that success depends on outrageously generous donated goods .. but that cost of involvement should stay lower. Lets face it, the breakout session is ultimately the cool pitch to learn hands on, even if its just a cheap LCD, a board, and some wires. If folks are doing it exclusively for the hardware discount then the wrong folks are consuming space of the breakout to begin with.

NOT to downplay the cool robot of last year. That thing is frickin awesome man.

[digital_dreamer]

I'm down for the breakouts, I would recommend $20 also, keep it cheap, keep it fun, and bring more than six boxes this time if you can, I wanted to crack one at 14 but i was 2minutes late, lol.

DT,when are you putting up the main DC15 page with vendors, events, etc

Adam & Abby, please tell my you guys have the penthouse booked already xD

AST, get the cameras ready, this year will be better than last!!

[samayra]

I think part of the success was in the cheap materials. It was VERY cool that folks walked away with a robot 10x the value, but in all honesty I think part of the success was cost of commitment. $200 to hop in a breakout session that may or may not turn out successful (for myself) is a big commitment.

This will be my first year attending a con and I would like to learn hands on. I agree that $200 is a big commitment.

If folks are doing it exclusively for the hardware discount then the wrong folks are consuming space of the breakout to begin with.


However, there should be some middle ground to limit the "space consumers", but still allow those on limited budgets to participate.

[converge]

It would take a feat of astronomical size.. but schedule a time when all defcon attendees would go to their rooms. Pre-planning would determine which room-numbers were needed for the correct pattern, then in planned time intervals on a synced clock have everyone turn their room lights on or off in concert. All your base are belong to us.. an image of Mario jumping, cycling through the three circles of the defcon logo ...

[DaKahuna]

Or the skull and cross bones symbol being displayed on both sides of the tower building!

[Nikita]

You can't get non defcon residents to comply with your idea. I see the blinken lights wheels turning in your heads from here. But what about all the hotel guest in between in the negative space? ( And, What about light pollution )

[Abby_Normal]

Adam & Abby, please tell my you guys have the penthouse booked already xD



Afraid not, the Riv has decided not to rent it to us (or anyone). We are looking at other options, fear not, there will be a party!

Just look for pumpkin man!

[converge]

You can't get non defcon residents to comply with your idea. hmmm.. there must be a way to control their circuit from outside? or maybe a friendly room rush? :p Actually .. weren't Defcon folk supposed to be stacked in our own segment for the most part this year?


( And, What about light pollution ) Interesting to note. This could require inversed displays .. draw the image by darkening a set of rooms and using light as the whitespace. This could actually work well for Defcon logos, skulls, or whatnot.. Other attendees could add a third texture by flickering their lights .. or to insane granularity by purchasing appropriately colored party lights ...


The biggest hurdle in such an idea would likely be physical space. Size of room/window in relation to actual width/height of the tower or hotel segment (pixel space). Greater resolution could be covered in lesser space by dividing each window into 4 segments using a thick enough band of opposing color .. bed sheets? .. but this adds much more time/complexity to pull it off as a trade off.

[Deviant Ollam]

now the really funny prank would be to hack the hack... find the organizational cards that will tell all participants which lights to turn on and off, then mod the cards without anyone ever knowing.

instead of the defcon logo the hotel could light up with something like "crash and burn" and make the whole thing look uber-lame.

(bonus points to anyone who knows what famous hack inspired this post)

[converge]

heh.. the brown note of the lighting hack. nice.

[Deviant Ollam]

heh.. the brown note of the lighting hack. nice.heh, i was actually thinking more of the 1961 Rosebowl Half-Time Hack (http://www.museumofhoaxes.com/pranks/rosebowl.html) where students from Cal Tech got the low down on some crowd-interaction stunt that the cheerleaders and band did, then urban-explored and/or lockpicked their way into the rooms where audience-participation instruction cards were held, stole one, made a bunch of duplicates and re-engineered the sequences (in what could be said to be a type of rudimentary programming), then snuck the modded cards back into the cheerleaders' belongings.

on the day of the game, various half-time signs (massive ones made by crowd members holding up colored squares of cardboard) showed incorrect things (like the CalTech Beaver mascot as opposed to a Washington Husky) and eventually the prankster school's name...

http://www.museumofhoaxes.com/pranks/images/rosebowl.jpg

read the whole article, it's a terrific story if you don't already know it.

[renderman]

heh, i was actually thinking more of the 1961 Rosebowl Half-Time Hack (http://www.museumofhoaxes.com/pranks/rosebowl.html) where students from Cal Tech got the low down on some crowd-interaction stunt that the cheerleaders and band did, then urban-explored and/or lockpicked their way into the rooms where audience-participation instruction cards were held, stole one, made a bunch of duplicates and re-engineered the sequences (in what could be said to be a type of rudimentary programming), then snuck the modded cards back into the cheerleaders' belongings.

on the day of the game, various half-time signs (massive ones made by crowd members holding up colored squares of cardboard) showed incorrect things (like the CalTech Beaver mascot as opposed to a Washington Husky) and eventually the prankster school's name...

http://www.museumofhoaxes.com/pranks/images/rosebowl.jpg

read the whole article, it's a terrific story if you don't already know it.

Freaking awesome hack. A classic

A more fiesable display might involve attendee's putting a sign in thier window or perhaps something to the balconies of the skyboxes?

[BonzoESC]

( And, What about light pollution )Bahahahaha, have you even been to vegas? :v

[Dark Tangent]

DT,when are you putting up the main DC15 page with vendors, events, etc


I am behind on this. I'm getting the CFP ready for early next week to announce it.

Also is the new floor plan for this year, and I want to start a discussion on use of space to help questions such as:

-- Should we not do the B&W Ball upstairs, move it to the convetion area so we don't get noise complaints, and people can find it easier?

[Nikita]

hmmm.. there must be a way to control their circuit from outside? or maybe a friendly room rush? :p Actually .. weren't Defcon folk supposed to be stacked in our own segment for the most part this year?



This may be true, I have heard nothing concrete yet. However I haven't asked either. You would always need to take into consideration worse case and minimum participation required to pull it off.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikita
( And, What about light pollution )


Interesting to note. This could require inversed displays .. draw the image by darkening a set of rooms and using light as the whitespace. This could actually work well for Defcon logos, skulls, or whatnot.. Other attendees could add a third texture by flickering their lights .. or to insane granularity by purchasing appropriately colored party lights ...


The biggest hurdle in such an idea would likely be physical space. Size of room/window in relation to actual width/height of the tower or hotel segment (pixel space). Greater resolution could be covered in lesser space by dividing each window into 4 segments using a thick enough band of opposing color .. bed sheets? .. but this adds much more time/complexity to pull it off as a trade off.

Thank you for understanding the point. I've obviously BEEN to Vegas (responding to other comment ) and can imagine a few problems relating to lights, whereas in any other place it would make more of a visible difference. I like the idea of party lights, however I have hesitancy those would would be bright enough either. Good luck, I'm in DC at the moment but when I get back and settled down, I'll try to contribute some decent ideas.

[DJ Jackalope]

-- Should we not do the B&W Ball upstairs, move it to the convetion area so we don't get noise complaints, and people can find it easier?


OMG, yes! Definitely. It was so very pretty upstairs, but yeah, hard to find.

[Abby_Normal]

When are they going to start assigning skyboxes and other space for parties? The Riv doesn't seem too keen on room parties, and the noise was a problem for everyone. I will miss the view though.

[converge]

Also is the new floor plan for this year, and I want to start a discussion on use of space to help questions such as:

I would pitch getting the Contest area, Lockpick Village, and Wireless Village all within the same stumbling area of each other, possibly squared off with the Chill area. All have a vary similar goal/look/feel. Also inserting a pitch for more space to Lockpick Village, as well as dedicated/secured-closable space so that they don't have to tear down for other events then re-assemble to kick things off.

Based on turnout last year, I would recommend combining the Forum Meet and DCG Meet into a single skybox event .. possibly with some signifier for DCG POCs or something. One turned out relatively successful but burned out pretty quick due to parties, the other was considerably smaller .. and burned out quick due to parties. Knowing the size/layout of the skyboxen now, one room for a small portion of a night would suffice (possibly before a party sets up?

oh ya.. one final.. I hear IceTre and Abby need a skybox to store some booze, with accessible times for multiple people to access it while music is playing. ;)

Black White Balls could definitely be more central .. of course, by the time I started wandering to find Miss Jackalope's performance I was 1) too late 2) recommended that the general direction was not a good one to head in due to the 'RedBull Fiasco of 06'. Ideally I would picture these set up and running in the areas underneath the skyboxen, ie move CTF and adjoining room and set up there?.. or similar idea. Well.. maybe not.. latter consideration for skyboxen party pollution depending on what ran concurrently.. something to toy with maybe.

[kriszklink]

OMG, yes! Definitely. It was so very pretty upstairs, but yeah, hard to find.

WOW, time flys..hope every1 is doing well. um yah i have to agree with Jackalope. This yeer should get a couple hundred flashlights and do the blackout party as well

[converge]

chemlights:
revenge of the ravers part deux

$500-600 should score, what, a good 1000 or so sticks? noid?

[mouseling]

Actually, Last year Agent X and i had the idea of making a couple hundred IR throwies and laying out a trail to a party that could only be found through cell phone camera's ccd. I even bought a bunch of IR leds, but we ran out of time.

maybe this year.

-mouse

[mouseling]

I would like to do a chocolate BOF. I've done this at one con, and it went very well. Everyone taste tests different manufacturer's wares - all w/ different cocoa liquer percentages -
El Ray, Valrhona, Michel Cluizel, Cote D'or, la Maison du Choclate and a few others offer wafers especially for comparison.

Only problem, how to ship chocolate to Las Vegas in July...

-mouse

[LosT]

Mouse,

We could also tag with 'hidden paint' and give out blacklight LEDs. :)

LosT

[digital_dreamer]

I like the tagging idea, yet at the same time, I assume you must have just watched teh 13 ghosts, lol. awesome ideas though. here's another one, post GPS coords somewhere in the sheep lounge, or con flyer, and have people use Garmins, tomtom to find them, geocaching to a party FTW. lucky my phone has built in GPS, see ya there, lol

[mouseling]

Mouse,

We could also tag with 'hidden paint' and give out blacklight LEDs. :)

LosT


Great idea!
I have a tradition of marking my hotel room walls in UV pen. Look for "REDRUM" written in an easy to find place. Do you know a good place for blacklight LEDS cheap? I have a lot (50 plus) inexpensive led flashlights, maybe we could swap the white LEDS for blacklight ones.
I can also get my hands on 5-6 UV pens easily.
-mouse

[hax0r]

I still think an off site desert party would be awsome like in the dry lake bed south east of the strip on the 95 south(burning man style) :) we could incorporate the toxic BBQ.

Imagine a stage out the