Regarding smoking at Defcon [Archive]

Z^2

08-18-2006, 07:42 PM

What I have to say is that I'm from Vermont, and smoking is not allowed in any public indoor areas there. That being said, I have the tendency to glare at people who smoke inside - having had horrid asthma when I was younger, and under the mindset that smoking inside is illegal. (Yes my lungs are still recovering from defcon.)

I think the suggestion in the other thread that smoking in the speaking-track rooms [be disallowed] would be a good idea. Allowing smoking in the vendor room(s) should be up to the vendors, and I think not allowing smoking in eating-places should be enforced because I don't want my food tasting like tobacco. Event areas...I don't think I have any ideas. Having the event leader make decisions would be a good idea because it's their event, yet people who want to participate might opt-out because of either having to put up with smoke or having to not-smoke because of the whiners (like me :wink: ).

I know they had ventilation going because I'd watch the smoke slowly rise upward from people's cigarettes, but that really doesn't help once a certain portion of the population inside is smoking. My eyes were watering and burned all of the weekend. Smoking leaves residues all over walls and cielings and floors in any case, so we can't eliminate it all because it's already there (and the smokers would wage war), but I'd certainly appreciate being able to speak without stopping to cough like an 80 year old man with emphysema.

Deviant Ollam

08-18-2006, 08:13 PM

i'm a non-smoker and have never been a smoker but i have no overall fundamental problem with smoke. i don't like it thick and i don't like it when i can't get away from it... but overall i don't have the health/allergy issues that others do which makes their opinions much stronger.

in all, i'd say that areas which allow for / are usually enjoyed via "perpetual mingling" are alright as smoking areas. (here i'm thinking of hallways, the vendor rooms, all outdoors) as for spaces where you typically pull up a chair and get comfy for a while (speaking tracks, perhaps the chillout area, skyboxes) we might do well to have a "smoking section" that's as proportional to the smoker population as we can estimate.

since skyboxes are so small it might just be best for whomever is in control of a particular box to make their own policy (like no smoking indoors but only on the balcony) but spaces like speaking tracks are, i think, large enough to accomodate a smoker's section... just make sure it has a wide enough berth (say, a 6' to 10' wide walkway) separating it from the normal area and i'd bet you're alright. some people right at the border edge might complain about being "so close to the smoking section" but guess what, with approximately 75% or more of the speaking tracks being non-smoker-ville (i'm guessing on the percentage to be decided) you can show up early to a talk and ensure yourself a more smog-free seat if it means that much to you.

this wouldn't be all that hard as it would only involve judicious arrangement of chairs and maybe a few signs or goon remarks.

just my $0.02

DaKahuna

08-18-2006, 08:37 PM

Smoking should not be permitted in the speaking track areas they are just too congested.

Smoking should be permitted in the skybox lounge / bar but a non-smoking area should also be provided.

Smoking in the con areas should be up to the people running the cons.

My $0.02 worth!

DJ Jackalope

08-18-2006, 11:25 PM

As a vendor, I really hate it when people get cigarette ashes on my product. Its just plain rude.

theprez98

08-19-2006, 12:14 AM

Apparently someone already rigged the poll.

Chris

08-19-2006, 12:26 AM

Apparently someone already rigged the poll.

That's crazy talk. The people have spoken.

Z^2

08-19-2006, 02:52 AM

Apparently someone already rigged the poll.

To that end, option #9 makes options #1 and #2 redundant. And option #8 indicates excruciating amounts of fucking. Although it is very nice use of 666 in any case.

Back to the topic, I think smoking/non-smoking sections in talks would be ok - at some airports where they still allow smoking (like in Munich, for example, where this worked well the last time I flew through), if there is adequate ventilation above/around where people are smoking, the rest of us don't have to share in their nicotine. Or maybe this would work: If there were a couple of non-smoking rooms along the way of the corridor every so often that whiners like me could duck into to catch a breath of non-smoke-filled-air, it would help. As it was this year, there really was no place to go if you really needed to get away from it in the main con areas other than to wander in any given direction and hope you could find a way out of the riv into the heat (I swear that place is really a blown-up version of a rat-maze), or escape to your room if you were lucky to board with non-smokers.

Thorn

08-20-2006, 10:11 AM

1) I'm a former smoker. I gave it up for several reasons, but mainly economic due to over taxation. I did not "quit" per se, but merely stopped one day. Horror stories about herion-like additiction are not true, at least not in my case.

2) I reside in Vermont. Not everyone here appreciates the the State's Big Brother goverment coddling people. Some of us believe that any such law is a violation of basic rights.

Note: It's hard to discuss this without going near the P&R edge, never mind straight off the cliff. I cut out a large amount of ranting about govermental issues.

As for DC, let those who don't like smoke step outside. It's merely the inverse of what is forced on people here.

And I voted for option #8.

BlackOrchid

08-20-2006, 10:48 PM

As a smoker who was diagnosed with asthma 9 months ago, I can understand someone who has issue with polution of ANY kind! The extreme amount of vehicle exhaust that is being emitted causes me to have asthmatic episodes more than cig smoke. (so stop driving! *wink*)

I do believe that the conference areas should not be smoking zones at defcon. I don't recall smoking being allowed in the AP conference rooms and I think people can certainly wait through a talk for an hour without smoking.

I can also understand not smoking in the vendor area. It's a confined space generally and ventilation seemed to be relatively lacking. I can understand vendors being concerned about their products being damaged by careless and rude smokers. I don't see a problem with people putting the cig out to shop! (most shopping areas in America do not allow smoking)

Mentioning also, There was a general lack of ashtrays in the chillout area, the B&W ball, and NO ashtrays in the conf, or vendor area that I ever spotted. (BTW, those little tinfoil ashtrays are useless and causes a greater mess! I chose to use a beer can instead.)

If you have a serious asthma issue, Vegas is NOT a place to go! The polution there, the dust and general air quality requires heavy medication for asthmatics. (I was one of those, this year, who HAD to carry an inhaler at all times.) But I'm certainly not going to attempt to change VEGAS or even a casino/hotel. This is a city that is known and based on smoking, drinking, gambling, and sex! I just 'suck it up' and drive on!... I knew what I was getting into before I went!

This defcon was already so guarded and ruled over defcon ever! More rules will alienate a lot of people. Let's not over do the rules. But likewise, be considerate of your fellow persons, and don't smoke in conferences and vendor areas (where there ARE NO ASHTRAYS!)

As a smoker, I'm willing to give in on a lot of things, but I'd love to see the NON-smokers give in just once in a while!

Chris

08-21-2006, 05:38 AM

I can also understand not smoking in the vendor area. It's a confined space generally and ventilation seemed to be relatively lacking. I can understand vendors being concerned about their products being damaged by careless and rude smokers. I don't see a problem with people putting the cig out to shop! (most shopping areas in America do not allow smoking)

Yeah, now that's just silly :wink:

Seriously though, there are two problems with making the vendor area completely non-smoking (three if you count "Chris wants to smoke").

1. Many of the vendors smoke. If they have to leave the vendor area to smoke, who is going to watch their merchandise. Each vendor is responsible for their own stuff while the area is open. The Vendor Staff (Goons) aren't going to take responsibility for a vendor's merchandise while they go out to smoke. Not feasible.

2. Who is going to enforce this non-smoking vendor area? I know for a FACT that I am not going to go up to someone smoking in there and ask them to leave/put it out. Especially since chances are I'd be smoking when I said that to them. I think we (Goons) have better things to do than be the smoking police.

As a smoker, I'm willing to give in on a lot of things, but I'd love to see the NON-smokers give in just once in a while!

Preach on sista!

valkyrie

08-21-2006, 07:53 AM

As a smoker who was diagnosed with asthma 9 months ago, I can understand someone who has issue with polution of ANY kind! The extreme amount of vehicle exhaust that is being emitted causes me to have asthmatic episodes more than cig smoke. (so stop driving! *wink*)

Used to be a smoker, but not any more. But I still think that rights are rights. If you want to smoke, I am not going to bitch, moan or complain to stop you. And thought it's not good for me, I still indulge ocassionally.

I do believe that the conference areas should not be smoking zones at defcon. I don't recall smoking being allowed in the AP conference rooms and I think people can certainly wait through a talk for an hour without smoking.

I can also understand not smoking in the vendor area. It's a confined space generally and ventilation seemed to be relatively lacking. I can understand vendors being concerned about their products being damaged by careless and rude smokers. I don't see a problem with people putting the cig out to shop! (most shopping areas in America do not allow smoking)

Mentioning also, There was a general lack of ashtrays in the chillout area, the B&W ball, and NO ashtrays in the conf, or vendor area that I ever spotted. (BTW, those little tinfoil ashtrays are useless and causes a greater mess! I chose to use a beer can instead.)

If'n you can be nice about it, then the non-smokers should also be nice about it. Come on people! This should not be something that comes between people.

If you have a serious asthma issue, Vegas is NOT a place to go! The polution there, the dust and general air quality requires heavy medication for asthmatics. (I was one of those, this year, who HAD to carry an inhaler at all times.) But I'm certainly not going to attempt to change VEGAS or even a casino/hotel. This is a city that is known and based on smoking, drinking, gambling, and sex! I just 'suck it up' and drive on!... I knew what I was getting into before I went!

Yeah baby!

This defcon was already so guarded and ruled over defcon ever! More rules will alienate a lot of people. Let's not over do the rules. But likewise, be considerate of your fellow persons, and don't smoke in conferences and vendor areas (where there ARE NO ASHTRAYS!)

As a smoker, I'm willing to give in on a lot of things, but I'd love to see the NON-smokers give in just once in a while!

You respect me. I respect you. Isn't that the way it's supposed to work?

stay shiny!

V

jur1st

08-21-2006, 09:01 AM

hackajar

08-21-2006, 01:37 PM

Smoking NEXT to non smokers is rude, IMHO. Open area's you should be able to smoke. Las Vegas is famous for having the "Free Cig" people at all the clubs, you could invite them to attend and give their stuff away, there by side steping any legal actions for DC giving away smokes.

/Note I'm a former smoker

atopian

08-21-2006, 02:34 PM

I know that when I was there I didn't smoke at all inside the tracks...except for after the last talk was over and we were hanging out in Track 1. Since I was swilling vodka for during many of the later talks, I would get up and move just outside the door to enjoy my smooth gretsky. I concluded that either smoking wasn't allowed and I didn't want to risk a swat with the electric fly-swatter or that everyone was being polite.

It certainly wouldn't hurt to make an out and out ban on smoking inside the tracks. The rest of the areas, however, should remain smoking and anyone who ashes on products in the vendor area deserves a punch in the nuts.

While it might be an issue if it were only a couple of people smoking, it seemed that at least a third, mabye even of the defcon attendees smoked. Other than mabye giving a section of the speaker tracks to NSers, I dont see any reason to touch any smoking rules outside of those enforced by the venue defcon is held at. I did notice with the speaker tracks it wasnt an issue, unless the smoker was basicly right becide you, so marking the area should be more than sufficent.

And agreed on the cockpunch for anyone ashing on the vendors stuff. Though Ira probably has some good earth moving equipment amoung all his stuff, and there is a big desert out there. ;)

renderman

08-21-2006, 03:19 PM

I'm of the non-smoking camp, and I do agree it's your choice, but I'm not one to encourage or endorse it in any way.

After umpteen Defcons and other cons, it's never really been an issue. I can see having talks non-smoking since everyone is in close proximity and I'm sure speakers want to see thier audience and not a cloud.

In the halls and common areas, You have the choice to move away from smokers, in a talk, you don't. I have left parties because of smoke, and I certainly don't like it when people light up in non smoking areas.

The only time I can remember me commenting about smoking at a con was Shmoocon 05 where I already had a cold and the smoke was causing problems. I asked to switch places with the smoker so I was upwind.

I'm not particularly sensitive to smoke and I don't seem to suffer the 'black stuff' problem of others, so maybe my perspectives are skewed, but I don't see it as a huge problem. The space is big enough that smokers and non smokers can seek shelter from each other and not cause each other problems.

Just my ranting $0.02 on the topic

mfreeck

08-21-2006, 03:50 PM

I am also in the no-smoking-in-tracks camp. I also think the hall that leads to the tracks (at least the one hall that led to just the two tracks) should be smoke-free, because I remember it being a bit of a closed in area and only the track doors were open. While a lot of people go to defcon for social reasons these days, the "meat" of defcon is still the talks. If you do nothing else at defcon, you can get a lot out of the talks. People who are super-sensitive to smoke can opt to hang out in their rooms (with or without friends) or outside instead of smoke filled chill out rooms and parties, but have no other way of attending the talks. Trips to the vendor area are likely to be short. I might also suggest that enclosed "working" areas such as lockpick village be smoke-free during operation for the same reason (smoking on balconey with closed doors optional). Smokers can have the vendor area, chill out room, major hallways, parties and all the rest of vegas.

Sidyin

08-21-2006, 06:56 PM

My first post, my first defcon.

My opinion:

First opinion... It's a casino. The last haven for smokers. The non-smoking camp has gotten too many consessions towards their cause to date.

Second opinion.... I attempted to be respectful where I smoked. I did not smoke during the tracks, nor did I smoke in the vendor area, nor the locksmith camp (where they politely put a sign up that said no-smoking).

Short of that, just about everywhere else within reason was fair game, hallways, etc. Although I did avoid standing in the busy corridor where the dartmatch was also being held, kinda impeded traffic. I usually wandered off outdoors, or to the main enterance area, or the food/wall-of-sheep whatever the hell you want to call it, and by the Internet Boothes.

Just my 2CP, I know some people aren't as polite as I, but /shrug.

BlackOrchid

08-21-2006, 07:26 PM

Chris & jur1st... I'll concede! I think yall can smoke in your vendor area.. and punch anyone on the nuts who harms or dirties your materials!.. I have no problem with punching uncouth arses!

However, I'll stand firm on the tracks being non smoking primarily because that is the root of what defcon is all about and no one should be forced out. Not to mention, most of the talks are so crowded and I'd fear hitting someone with a cig. (yes, it has happened!) However, if a speaker is a smoker.. let them smoke.. they have free reign do whatever they want!

In the immortal words of William Wallace (as portrayed by Mel Gibson): FREEDOOOMMMM!~!!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I went to defcon to live deliberately! (adaptation on Henry David Theoreau)

Deviant Ollam

08-22-2006, 07:38 AM

nor did I smoke in ... the locksmith camp (where they politely put a sign up that said no-smoking).actually, i think that sign was put up in order to prevent people from smoking out on the balcony. why this was i am not certain, since when organizing the village i envisioned from the start that it would be a chillout area where people could learn at their own pace... and be free to smoke or drink however they wished. maybe there was some "no smoking on the balcony" regulation of which i wasn't aware. next year, if we're back in the skyboxes again, i'd like that to be the smoking section of the lockpick village.

However, I'll stand firm on the tracks being non smoking primarily because that is the root of what defcon is all about and no one should be forced out.i'm a non-smoker with no desire to start the habit and no desire to have my clothes smell of tobacco... but my comfort doesn't trump others' freedom. much in the same way that people have the right to drink alcohol or read pornography or wear perfume or sport an unconventional haircut in public, my freedoms are perfectly safe and protected as long as i have the ability to walk away from them should i not like any of those life choices (i have no problems with any of them, by the way).

people have choice... the choice to tolerate a mild annoyance which makes a temporary intrusion into their sense perimeter versus getting up and walking somewhere else. it's when you do not have freedom of movement (plane flights, sitting at a dining table, movie theater, etc.) that smoking becomes a problem. in most of those instances, smoking is either banned outright or consigned to a particular section. i really feel like this should be the main deciding factor with the defcon smoking question... whether people can roam freely or are stuck where they're seated for the duration of an event. speaking tracks are the only places where i think people are ever really "stuck" to a chair at defcon (except for maybe the CtF teams... but isn't there a wide berth between them and spectators?) and therefore the only place that i think smoking would be a problem.

however, i haven't really heard anyone make a convincing argument as to why a portion of the room couldn't serve effectively as a smoking section. i know there were smokers in the talks this year and i never even noticed, since i wasn't sitting within 10' or so of them and the smoke just rose up and never entered my space.

just my $1.42

tequilastrapple

08-25-2006, 10:30 PM

Apparently someone already rigged the poll.
It wouldn’t be a proper Defcon Forum poll without some good-natured vote-rigging.

Thanks, all, for the continued genial humor in addressing such a touchy subject. I am really enjoying the thoughtful discussions. My chuckles have been plentiful.

If it were up to me, all buildings would have such badass air-filtration systems that smokers could do as they please without inhibiting the actions of non-smoking pussies like myself.

Since that’s not going to happen anytime soon, I have just placed an order for a carbon-filter mask that is supposed to reduce exposure to cigarette smoke and a bunch of other “pollutants” by “as much as 95%.” We shall see. I’m skeptical, but looking forward to testing it between beer swigs at one of Philly’s defiantly smoke-filled bars – fitting, as for some reason, this town is called the “birthplace of freedom.”

I found the mask here:
http://www.alerg.com/page/A/PROD/11MSK/MSK2005
The company that makes them, “I Can Breathe!®,” (okay, how lame is that?) says they come in tan, white, and grey, as well as a beige lace version. Hoping they come out with a black lace version soon…

Deviant Ollam

08-25-2006, 10:55 PM

a carbon-filter mask that is supposed to reduce exposure to cigarette smoke and a bunch of other “pollutants” by “as much as 95%.”i'd wager that it also boasts the miraculous ability to reduce your exposure to potential dates and new friends by about the same percentage...

http://www.alerg.com/Merchant2/graphics/00000001/msk2005.jpg

sorry, not trying to make a knock directly at you or anything... but life is getting a little bit extreme if people start ordering or wearing these en masse. it's like we're in the SARS epidemic fear again or something. good lord, people, if your body can't handle even casual second-hand smoke contact then the universe is just trying to tell you to socialize outside. :wink: (repeat: not making fun of you... just making fun of a ridiculous looking product that's not really suited to social situations)

litsuka

08-26-2006, 05:14 PM

well here is my opinions as lowly as they are..
i'm a non-smoker with no desire to start the habit and no desire to have my clothes smell of tobacco... but my comfort doesn't trump others' freedom. much in the same way that people have the right to drink alcohol or read pornography or wear perfume or sport an unconventional haircut in public, my freedoms are perfectly safe and protected as long as i have the ability to walk away from them should i not like any of those life choices (i have no problems with any of them, by the way). as long as you have the ability its fine to me, problem is if everywhere is full of smoke where can you go?

to me as long as the smokers are polite and it isnt so bad you cant breathe i dont really care ( polite i mean as not blowing it my face ) I think its not right to ban smoking all together but limiting what people can and cant do by smoking ( and you are doing that by both non smoking rules and allowing smoking) is what sucks. I am highly allergic to smoking I can barely stand near someone who smokes, and generally I just stay a few steps away from them if I can help it. I think smoking in areas where you can wander around in is ok becouse I can go look at something else or do something else as long as I can come back later, however events and speaking that are limited in times someone can attend I think should be restricted simply becouse smokers can go without smoking for a while, while some people cannot be around it for more then a few minutes, its not restricting their freedom to smoke its giving non smokers the freedom to attend events they want to without dying and having to leave.
there ya go 2 cents from lowly old me.

eris

08-31-2006, 12:31 PM

http://www.alerg.com/Merchant2/graphics/00000001/msk2005.jpg
just making fun of a ridiculous looking product that's not really suited to social situations)

I totally agree, chiming in only about the esthetics of this solution. The solution itself is pretty good as an adaptation to the smoke-filled environment of Defcon at a Vegas casino, but wow, that is guaranteed to never allow sexual contact between the wearer and ANYONE.

How about something like this instead?

http://www.betterbreathers.com/

http://nosefilters.com/prod01.htm

tequilastrapple

08-31-2006, 10:22 PM

Thanks for the nasal filter suggestions, eris. I had found them already. I will be test-driving some of these at a smoke-filled Philly bar, as well.

Regarding the aesthetics and social appropriateness of the mask:

1. I don’t think that you all have considered the creative possibilities that this blank canvas affords. I'm sure I can come up with a way to take this mask from bland to grand.
Here is an example of my über mask-design skills – built of veriform and latex paint for a theatrical production in 2004.

http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l170/tequilastrapple/davidmask2.jpg

2. I do not go to Defcon looking for “sexual contact” or “potential dates.” While the overall attitude toward women at DC has changed for the better over the 5 years that I have been attending, I inevitably encounter assholes who assume that, because I’m a woman, that’s why I’m there. The concept that my brain may be even more interesting than my body does not occur to them. If you think that wearing a mask such as this would discourage unwelcome come-ons from these kinds of people, why shouldn’t I wear it? If “potential dates” are turned off by the assumptions that they make about me if I am wearing one of these, then the mask is doing me a favor, filtering out annoying people in addition to annoying particles.

alklloyd

08-31-2006, 10:36 PM

1.)I think the rules will be set by the RIVERIA as to where we can smoke.
1b.) It's a CASINO.
2.) You are in LAS VEGAS, where you can smoke in a TAXICAB.
3.) If your health is so fragile, what are you DOING in VEGAS?

Your doctor would tell you to stay home.

Al K. Lloyd

PS: All my best to Chris

sammo

09-01-2006, 01:04 PM

1.)I think the rules will be set by the RIVERIA as to where we can smoke.
1b.) It's a CASINO.
2.) You are in LAS VEGAS, where you can smoke in a TAXICAB.

This is changing though... many of the higher class card rooms like the Bellagio and the Wynn don't allow smoking and the WSOP at the Rio doesn't allow smoking.

alklloyd

09-02-2006, 08:50 PM

This is changing though... many of the higher class card rooms like the Bellagio and the Wynn don't allow smoking and the WSOP at the Rio doesn't allow smoking.
This is true, I remember people at the Rio bitching about the hallway smoke.
It may happen (or not), but don't hold your breath (:>) for Vegas casinos to go completely smoke-free. It is Sin City, you know.

Al

Abby_Normal

09-03-2006, 06:33 AM

2. I do not go to Defcon looking for “sexual contact” or “potential dates.”

Having seen what the average Defon attendee looks(and smells) like, one would wonder where a person would get the idea that a woman would go to con in search of sexual partners.

It's not like it's hard to get laid in the real world anyway. All you need is to own a vagina, or something close. :-)

latras

09-03-2006, 10:50 AM

Having seen what the average Defon attendee looks(and smells) like, one would wonder where a person would get the idea that a woman would go to con in search of sexual partners.

I don't see how hard it is to shower every day, If you really need to hurry, you can get a decent shower in about 5-10 minutes...and then you bring more than a backpacks worth of clothes...with the heat, you might need to change your clothes again during the day..and even maybe hop in the shower again.....

it's not hard to look and smell good at defcon :) well, except for those CTF players....