Ninja party is canceled this year [Archive]

barkode

06-30-2008, 05:45 PM

I wanted to nip this in the bud so I don't spend all day on Friday explaining it to everyone.

We've been forced by the Riviera to shut down the Ninja party this year, as their demands are simply too great to be met for what is supposed to be a non-corporate-sponsored private party. (This would have been the 10th anniversary too. Sniff.) All said and done, it sounds like they're looking for about $15,000, and in-context that number is so ludicrous that I don't even know where to begin.

I'd like to fill you all in on how it went down last year, so you can get an idea of what we're dealing with.

Last year, a few hours before the party, we were informed that it was being canceled by the hotel. We had an emergency meeting with myself, Charel from DEFCON, and Grifter, where we agreed to pay the hotel $2500 for -permission- to bring alcohol into the party. A corkage fee, if you will. This was paid as cash in a paper bag in a back hallway to some guy.

Once the party started, another $1200 in cash found its way into the hands of "other" bartenders (that were not working the party) but showed up to "assist" the legit bartenders, mostly by supplying them with a couple (and I mean less than six total) small bottles of plastic-bottle, "well" tequila or rum. These bottles were obviously stolen from the hotel by the bartender(s) in question, and they demanded $1200 cash for them, which we had to pay.

The kicker - at the end of the night, partygoers had donated (in the party donation jugs that we always have out) over $3,000 in cash. The hotel took it. All of it. Their justification was that it could be considered gratuity for the bartenders, however, it was obvious that this was not the case. They just took the cash.

All in, the hotel fleeced us for $6700, which was literally money out of our pockets into theirs. We still had to pay for ALL of the alcohol, sound systems, and other related costs for the party (of which there are many.) That $6700 was literally just hotel overhead. For a party.

This year, they want more than double what they got last year. Charel from DEFCON negotiated with the hotel on our behalf, and we offered $2500 again, which we think is a reasonable fee for corkage for a five hour party. The hotel declined. They apparently want to run a cash bar (like you find everywhere else at the hotel) or a prepaid bar at near cash-bar rates, which is outrageously expensive. Neither option would work. Besides that we always run a 100% open bar, a cash bar would just bring the whole thing to a grinding halt. You can't serve 750+ people from two slow-moving cash bars. These guys take 1-2 minutes to make a drink and sell it. That's 30 to 60 drinks an hour. Do the math.

So that said, there will be no party Saturday night. Considering that over 750 people attended the party last year, and it went on for 7 hours, I think it's unfortunate that this year people will probably end up going their separate ways and not seeing each other all at the same time, which was always the best part about the event. Everybody being in one place at the same time.

Not only that, we'd designed a lot of really kick ass industrial art this year, some awesome stuff built on a custom milling machine constructed from scratch by some of the Ninja crew, and now none of that stuff is going to see the light of day, which is very unfortunate. The art was to be displayed in the room during the day for all to see.

I really think that the event had become a part of the DEFCON culture for a lot of people. I get approached by all sorts of people (feds, often) asking for badges even after the party is over just so they can hang them on their cubicle walls. Then there's the notorious story where the big group of FBI agents showed up two years ago and flashed their badges, and TW (who was carding for age verification) famously said "I see FBI, but I need to see D.O.B.". The feds said "Are you serious?", to which TW replied in the affirmative. They reluctantly showed their driver's licenses before going in. Ah, memories.

If we were taking over a bar, I would understand the numbers they're coming back with. If this was a standalone, corporate event, I would understand the numbers. But this is a private party underneath an existing event (DEFCON) that is paying the hotel large sums of money already, and we're willing to pay corkage for our event. It's very unfortunate that in this context, we're being shut down.

Anyway. To those of you who were planning on attending, we're sorry there won't be an event this year. Thanks for all the support in previous years. :)

Oh, and we're contacting the MiniBosses and canceling their appearance, and letting them know they should book the Black and White ball now if someone from B&W wants to hook that up.

kallahar

06-30-2008, 06:00 PM

There's also the option of having a "bring your own alcohol party", I believe the 303 party got around the corkage fee by only having free beer or something?

DJ Jackalope

06-30-2008, 06:01 PM

Hmmm wow. And ugh. Followed by more UGH. Did I mention, Ugh? Seeking a venue for plan B?

pinguino

06-30-2008, 06:08 PM

This really really really sucks. The Ninja Party is by far, my favorite part of DefCon. It's where I can dance to some of the most fun DJs at the con, surrounded by my favorite people. Last year, for some reason I couldn't really make it to DefCon.. but I showed up at 7p Saturday just for the Ninja party.. and left noon the next day.

One of my favorite memories is going to Kinkos with Wilx to make water bottle labels for the party three years ago, and then seeing a trashcan filled completely with bottles with pac-bell drawn on them, which was rapidly emptied as people grabbed the much-needed hydration.

I loved handing out glowsticks at the parties, and dancing with random people.. watching the Minibosses play.. seeing the SMS wall in action.. standing guard over last year's art piece dressed like a ninja and messing wth people who walked by.. teaching a mini karate-class in the hallway to drunk people...

I was really excited about the party this year, cuz I had some ideas for it that I wanted to do. This sucks. Stupid hotel.

barkode

06-30-2008, 06:09 PM

There's also the option of having a "bring your own alcohol party", I believe the 303 party got around the corkage fee by only having free beer or something?

Unfortunately the hotel is clamping down this year on such activities. All skybox parties had to have a contract with the hotel regarding alcohol. People can walk in with their own drinks, but with no bar, they're going to have to walk right back out to get another one.

Sure there's plenty of things to do other than drink (I think I had perhaps one single drink all night last year), but people still want to nurse a drink while they're talking/playing/etc. If that's not available, it doesn't really work...

We had all kinds of tech coming this year, lots of activities and things for people to play with. But underneath that, you've gotta run a bar. :)

barkode

06-30-2008, 06:14 PM

Hmmm wow. And ugh. Followed by more UGH. Did I mention, Ugh? Seeking a venue for plan B?

Plan B was taking over the bar at the Alexis Park and running 4 rapid, simultaneous shuttle buses from the Riviera all night, but things were looking pretty grim at the AP. They don't want to run late-night entertainment events, because it bothers the hotel guests. Understandable.

Also the artwork we'd built this year was built to fit -exactly- to the specifications of the room at the Riviera (we even went to Vegas to scout it out and take measurements), so losing the cool art would have really blown.

TheCotMan

06-30-2008, 06:17 PM

jedi

06-30-2008, 06:24 PM

Plan B was taking over the bar at the Alexis Park and running 4 rapid, simultaneous shuttle buses from the Riviera all night, but things were looking pretty grim at the AP. They don't want to run late-night entertainment events, because it bothers the hotel guests. Understandable.

Was the AP the only alternative location considered? Would hosting it at another hotel (besides transport logistics and last minute planning) cost just as much?

DJ Jackalope

06-30-2008, 06:28 PM

you would probably just need one $35 a night generator to run enough sound for a party with the powered Mackie speakers I am thinking about. (if i am remembering how the sound was rigged last year...i dont remember what the subwoofer situation was in the skybox- were those Mackies', too?)

If I remember right, Londo or Converge knew some of the park's regulations on amplified sound.

As for the alcohol.... I foresee lots of plastic cups to get around that one.

barkode

06-30-2008, 06:28 PM

Anger. Frustration. Unhappiness. Sadness.

Are there any venues close to the Riv that are easily in walking distance that would be more reasonable?

Though there is not enough electricity or any electricity at all, the Toxic BBQ might be an option. Sadly, such a thing wouldn't be 100% private, and an open bar without flow control and validation could be problematic, and they require people leave by sunset, or some-such, but it is an alternative -- especially with enough generators.

We spent a lot of time thinking about alternative venues. There's a lot of variables, the least of which isn't getting people to and from the location, and making it a simple process.

The big loss would have been on the technology and the access control stuff. This year we were doing something really cool for the badges that had an interactive element and some hackability. We were designing these art pieces in CAD and milling them in aluminum and building in these video walls and... well, it was all very cool. But it was all built to use at the Riviera (measured for ceiling height, distance between doors, etc). So if we can't use all that stuff, and had to throw the event anyway, it would be disappointing.

Anyway, we stopped work on those devices a couple weeks ago when things went sour, and there's hardly time to start it again now even if we wanted to.

TheCotMan

06-30-2008, 06:29 PM

DJ Jackalope

06-30-2008, 06:36 PM

Was the AP the only alternative location considered? Would hosting it at another hotel (besides transport logistics and last minute planning) cost just as much?

Jedi- since most of Vegas is Unionized (please correct me if I am wrong) the Ninja love will run into that everywhere.

I am still really partial to here (http://www.doubledownsaloon.com/) as a club spot. Its not close to the Riv which blows, but still feels like home when you walk in. And besides, they serve Assjuice and I played in a bikini there.

Ninjas: I think if you offered maybe even a 1/3rd of what you were going to offer the Riv, you'd get into somewhere with proper villians like ourselves at the healm. (But... i know how you guys operate, and I know I am preaching to the choir.)

pinguino

06-30-2008, 06:52 PM

jackalope- that place looks really cool. but getting any group to leave the hotel in a coordinated fashion, even just for dinner, is like herding cats.

Siviak

06-30-2008, 07:13 PM

...getting any group to leave the hotel in a coordinated fashion, even just for dinner, is like herding cats....

Hyperactive cats, wish sever schizophrenia, and a bad meth habit!

jedi

06-30-2008, 07:19 PM

Jedi- since most of Vegas is Unionized (please correct me if I am wrong) the Ninja love will run into that everywhere.

Would appear so, in the case of the bartenders:

http://www.herelocal165.org/Index.htm

There doesn't appear any way to report abuses to the union on their site, which from the description of last years event and this year's price jump is exactly how I would describe the situation.

DJ Jackalope

06-30-2008, 08:02 PM

jackalope- that place looks really cool. but getting any group to leave the hotel in a coordinated fashion, even just for dinner, is like herding cats.

Oh, you know it Sistah'. Maybe Lopecon2 in November then...?

Dark Tangent

06-30-2008, 08:14 PM

We will be looking for a new hotel..

falconred

06-30-2008, 08:15 PM

Also the artwork we'd built this year was built to fit -exactly- to the specifications of the room at the Riviera (we even went to Vegas to scout it out and take measurements), so losing the cool art would have really blown.

BOOO! I smuggled that tape measure in my pants for nothing!

winn

06-30-2008, 08:34 PM

xor

06-30-2008, 08:37 PM

Rant(Rave) On:

I'm shocked at all of you. Obviously never been to a rave :-). What does Las Vegas have a lot of, public land aka Desert. There isn't a crew out in Vegas that wouldn't co-host a rave some where out in the desert on public land. Rent a bus, you can't rent a bus for $2500.

They don't have drunk buses in Vegas? My brothers bachelor party is renting one here in Philly for the entire day/night until the wee hours of the morning to drive people from way out into the burbs to a Phillies game then to ummmmmm Day Dreams, an all night BYOB/Keg ummmm establishment. :-)

We had illegal parties in downtown SF and never got caught, in parks, on the beach, on the naval base, in shipping containers. I refuse to believe this isn't possible in Vegas.

SHAME ON YOU ALL!!!!! :-)

Time and effort people, that's all it takes.

Rant(Rave) Off:

xor

Ps Don't they have a big public lake out there close to the city.

xor

06-30-2008, 08:47 PM

We will be looking for a new hotel..

Using Jedi mind control:

Come to Philadelphia, you want to have Defcon in Philadelphia at the convention center.......

:-)

xor

barkode

06-30-2008, 09:06 PM

It seems to me, IMHO, that 8,000 of the smartest people, geekiest people, technical people and the ultimate social engineers should find this current 'obstacle' and opportunity to demonstrate skills. :-) Does this mean we give up? I don't get off work at DC HJ until 1AM and I NEED somewhere close to go. Then again, this WAS all about me. :-)))))))))))

Just thinking... out loud... everything is solveable: Remember Apollo XIII. The guys on the ground were given simulated conditions of what the astronauts had up there. "This is what they have. Now we have to save them." Arguably a twisted parallel, but one that nonetheless makes the point. :-)

Winn

Winn,

Generally speaking, I couldn't agree more. Ingenuity is a virtue, after all.

The issue here isn't that we couldn't come up with alternative plans. There's a lot of alternative plans that sound good on the surface, until you start to think about them logistically.

Most alternative plans involve a change of venue, and this is a really big problem. Besides the simple fact that hackers are notoriously difficult to get from one place to another, getting people safely and expeditiously to and from the location becomes an additional expense.

On a more intangible level - just having the event offsite makes it less convenient to just wander up to casually. It makes it a "thing" that requires forethought and dominates your time, and on top of that, it takes people away from DEFCON, which is counterproductive.

Then there's the art installations, the access control, the SMS wall, the video games, the band, the sound system, the other cool tech stuff, etc, etc, etc. We'd need to get it to and from the other venue, and some of it is designed specifically for the Riviera room.

Could we make something work if we REALLY wanted to? Absolutely. But it wouldn't be the same. It would be spending a lot of money, it would be settling. Could we totally pull some hacker shit? Absolutely. But there's other factors to consider...

If we wanted to overtly break the rules, or just pay the hotel, or lower our expectations, or totally social engineer some crazy shit, or if I wanted to throw a gigantic fit about it and make a huge terrible political mess, we could figure out a way to throw an event at the Riviera. But out of respect for DEFCON we did not want to break the rules to such an extent, and out of respect for ourselves and everyone else, we didn't want to throw a half-ass event.

Throwing the event off-site - that's just a really different thing altogether. We could do it, but we really don't want to. It's just not the same thing.

The easy solution would be a corporate sponsor, right? Well, that is actually on the table. But one thing we had to take into consideration was that we don't want to set a precedent for those that come after us, or for other similar events at DEFCON. If we pony up this kind of cash, the hotel is going to want that from others as well. It's going to set a precedent that you have to seriously pay to play, and that's just not the DEFCON spirit. Reasonable expenses are one thing. Borderline extortion is another. We don't want to screw things up for everyone else later. As soon as the hotel knows they can get this kind of money for unofficial events, they're going to continue to tighten the belt and squeeze money out of everyone they think will pay up.

So yes, we could start pulling cards out of our sleeves and "get away" with something, but there's some intangible factors to consider.

xor

06-30-2008, 09:14 PM

Winn,

Generally speaking, I couldn't agree more. Ingenuity is a virtue, after all.

The issue here isn't that we couldn't come up with alternative plans. There's a lot of alternative plans that sound good on the surface, until you start to think about them logistically.

Most alternative plans involve a change of venue, and this is a really big problem. Besides the simple fact that hackers are notoriously difficult to get from one place to another, getting people safely and expeditiously to and from the location becomes an additional expense.

On a more intangible level - just having the event offsite makes it less convenient to just wander up to casually. It makes it a "thing" that requires forethought and dominates your time, and on top of that, it takes people away from DEFCON, which is counterproductive.

Then there's the art installations, the access control, the SMS wall, the video games, the band, the sound system, the other cool tech stuff, etc, etc, etc. We'd need to get it to and from the other venue, and some of it is designed specifically for the Riviera room.

Could we make something work if we REALLY wanted to? Absolutely. But it wouldn't be the same. It would be spending a lot of money, it would be settling. Could we totally pull some hacker shit? Absolutely. But there's other factors to consider...

If we wanted to overtly break the rules, or just pay the hotel, or lower our expectations, or totally social engineer some crazy shit, or if I wanted to throw a gigantic fit about it and make a huge terrible political mess, we could figure out a way to throw an event at the Riviera. But out of respect for DEFCON we did not want to break the rules to such an extent, and out of respect for ourselves and everyone else, we didn't want to throw a half-ass event.

Throwing the event off-site - that's just a really different thing altogether. We could do it, but we really don't want to. It's just not the same thing.

The easy solution would be a corporate sponsor, right? Well, that is actually on the table. But one thing we had to take into consideration was that we don't want to set a precedent for those that come after us, or for other similar events at DEFCON. If we pony up this kind of cash, the hotel is going to want that from others as well. It's going to set a precedent that you have to seriously pay to play, and that's just not the DEFCON spirit. Reasonable expenses are one thing. Borderline extortion is another. We don't want to screw things up for everyone else later. As soon as the hotel knows they can get this kind of money for unofficial events, they're going to continue to tighten the belt and squeeze money out of everyone they think will pay up.

So yes, we could start pulling cards out of our sleeves and "get away" with something, but there's some intangible factors to consider.

Well said, I still say you need to stop thinking cushy hotel and start thinking burning man for at least the party. It worked at Shmoocon though it was held at a club.

xor

Voltage Spike

06-30-2008, 09:32 PM

First of all, thanks for the parties (and "non-parties" at other conventions :wink:). I try to contribute in little ways, but I've never been there in the unreasonable extreme that you guys go for.

If we pony up this kind of cash, the hotel is going to want that from others as well. It's going to set a precedent that you have to seriously pay to play, and that's just not the DEFCON spirit. Reasonable expenses are one thing. Borderline extortion is another. We don't want to screw things up for everyone else later. As soon as the hotel knows they can get this kind of money for unofficial events, they're going to continue to tighten the belt and squeeze money out of everyone they think will pay up.

I agree completely. Additionally, if the bartenders were skimming money off the top, then I would imagine they would cry foul at the loss of an opportunity to do so again (assuming the Riviera manages to keep the same people from year to year). By not caving, you guys could be making friends on the inside.

Additionally, the Riviera management may see that they can collect a few thousand and have a central location they can control ... or they can play a ridiculous game of whack-a-mole all over their property on their own dime.

As for people providing their own alcohol, that doesn't seem out of the question. At an event where people clip bottles of vodka to their backpack and offer out to others, I don't know that finding booze is a problem. Heck, most of us can use the exercise of walking back-and-forth to the stash in our room.

Maybe throw the party and hand out insulated mugs/plastic bottles for people to do with as they wish? The more generous among us could then provide for friends and those who vouch for friends? Heck, alcohol runs during the party sound like they could be quite fun (except for the guy at the door).

I just hope another kick-ass party involving 80s mash-ups and penis necklaces doesn't go away at this con...

I guess it really doesn't matter since Defcon was cancelled this year. (Yes, I groaned a little bit as I typed that.)

DJ Jackalope

06-30-2008, 09:47 PM

Well said, I still say you need to stop thinking cushy hotel and start thinking burning man for at least the party.
xor

*poke* Desert has been thought of... however.... those of us who have gear LIKE our gear. I've been throwing raves (legal and illegal) for the past 13 years. i'm sure that is how long some of the Ninjas have been at it, too.

either way, everyone is just looking for something fun to do at night, something close and cheep.

Bottom line...the hotel made it extremely difficult for the Ninjas to throw a party. Doesn't matter about getting it moved, etc...we (DC attendees) are throwing money to the Riv and getting screwed for it. I don't know all the details, but if the Riv was your landlord, would you be mad, too?

I can't imagine how hard it is to negotiate a hotel and how unfun it probably is and I am glad it isn't me who gets to grease the wheels.
Godspeed to DT and everyone else for scouting out a hotel for DC.

xor

06-30-2008, 09:51 PM

*poke* Desert has been thought of... however.... those of us who have gear LIKE our gear. I've been throwing raves (legal and illegal) for the past 13 years. i'm sure that is how long some of the Ninjas have been at it, too.

either way, everyone is just looking for something fun to do at night, something close and cheep.

Bottom line...the hotel made it extremely difficult for the Ninjas to throw a party. Doesn't matter about getting it moved, etc...we (DC attendees) are throwing money to the Riv and getting screwed for it. I don't know all the details, but if the Riv was your landlord, would you be mad, too?

I can't imagine how hard it is to negotiate a hotel and how unfun it probably is and I am glad it isn't me who gets to grease the wheels.
Godspeed to DT and everyone else for scouting out a hotel for DC.

Whimpers(foo), plays taps, hugs cats, rolls over and goes to bed. :-)

xor

jedi

06-30-2008, 10:48 PM

We will be looking for a new hotel..

Any chance you (or any of the core DC folks) can elaborate on this? Is the hotel actually unhappy with the con as a whole? Or is the kind of situation that you folks as the organizers have been experiencing and this particular issue is the straw that broke the camel's back?

jedi

06-30-2008, 10:52 PM

Well said, I still say you need to stop thinking cushy hotel and start thinking burning man for at least the party. It worked at Shmoocon though it was held at a club.

The burner experience is not for all.

converge

06-30-2008, 11:29 PM

Definitely a drag reading this thread .. the Ninja party was a major highlight for me last year (as usual) and I was really looking forward to it this con. Much gratitude for all the bullshit you folks have put up with to make it happen.

Been thinking, but haven't had any sparks.. mostly thinking about pudding. sigh.

Authority circumvention in Vegas has a little extra risk, as you're not exactly dealing with the law..

astcell

07-01-2008, 02:13 AM

I'll buy drinks from the Alexis Park bar before the Riviera bar after this. A local liquor store is going to get a lot of business from me. Maybe I'll get a 30 gallon super soaker backpack and offer free drinks to all from it.

Another option for the hotel is that next year they charge normal room rates and get their profit that way. It is still cheaper than the AP was, and they can easily see an extra 12 grand that way, from all ages, and even the non-drinkers.

[Syntax]

07-01-2008, 02:54 AM

I'm assuming some other groups/parties are going to run into this road block as well. Is it possible to circumvent this whole thing by getting multiple groups together and an area larger than the skybox being used? 15k is steep, even with 3 groups thats a chunk of change before other costs involved.

No idea how feasible this idea is, but Im sure people would be more than willing to pay a small cover.

I remember the bartenders who appeared, and I thought to myself I wonder if these guys are being paid? I was one of the many people who tossed money into a cup/bucket whatever it was on the counter. Now that I know where It went, I have a little more despise for the hotel than I already did.

valkyrie

07-01-2008, 06:07 AM

tendency

07-01-2008, 07:30 AM

well. when i got the text messages last night i hoped it wasn't true.

no, no, no, no, no, no NO. godDAMNIT.

and here i'm coming back this year and everything. well hell. ninjakin, see you all soon, party or no.

tendency_

Deviant Ollam

07-01-2008, 08:21 AM

to start off, i'd like to thank Barkode and everyone else who has run the Ninja Party at DEFCON. like many others who commented in this thread, i agree that was one of the very top elements of the con and something i looked forward to every single year.

in the face of this, i'm drawn more than anything to DT's comment...We will be looking for a new hotel..... that, above all else, makes me so very, very happy. i have liked certain aspects of the Riviera but have consistently had negative experiences here since we arrived. Do not confuse that with me saying that my DEFCONs have been bad ones the past few years... DEFCON is always the highlight of my summer. But the Riv went from bad to worse in terms of attitude.

At first i chalked it up to growing pains, and hoped that the hotel (after the first year) would realize that we're not all criminal meth addicts bent on satanic world domination and treat us properly the following years. It turns out they somehow instead decided that we are so polite and "normal" that we can be looked at as cash machines like every other bozo in las vegas.

i applaud DT's comments and can only hope and pray that the search will result in a new venue for DC17. can the turnaround happen that fast? or are we stuck at the Riv for at least one more summer? (i don't know how far out the lead time goes on DEFCON planning)

Would hosting it at another hotel (besides transport logistics and last minute planning) cost just as much?see Barkode's comments below...

having the event offsite makes it less convenient to just wander up to casually. It makes it a "thing" that requires forethought and dominates your time, and on top of that, it takes people away from DEFCON, which is counterproductive.i'm 100% with you on this, man. anything that is off-site is, in practice, a pretty shit idea during a con. it may sound good on paper but it just doesn't work out, in my opinion. pre-con events, post-con gatherings... that's another story. but during just about any con i want stuff to be at the hotel.

Could we totally pull some hacker shit? Absolutely. But there's other factors to considerthe last thing we'd want to do is put you or any of the Ninjas in a troubled position. but, i would ask that you don't discount our own ingenuity and the potential options that still exist for pulling this off right there in the Skybox which...

1. we all love to be in
2. you have already planned on using
3. is a great location

People can walk in with their own drinks, but with no bar, they're going to have to walk right back out to get another one.this could be the most key factor of all. nothing disrespectful of the law or anything that would make people's lives into real hell... but i think that we could totally blast the Riv in the wallet by following that exact rule.

allow me to explain (and this is just me rambling... could be stupid of me to talk so openly about an idea that may never get off the ground because it may just get everyone all fussy and excited about something that may never happen)

1. imagine flyers/tickets/something that say "send an SMS to this number for pre-ninja-party alcohol delivery to your room"
2. in the one or two hours leading up to the ninja party, a squad of volunteers blasts out to the first like 200+ rooms to send a text
3. the alcohol volunteers verify that the person who answers the room door is over 21, and they dispense with a bottle of something purchased from maybe a $2000 booze supply
4. they also give the room a ninja party ticket (follow me on this)
5. any people will be allowed in at the door if they are over 21 and the room isn't too packed... but those who actually bring a ticket down with them will get a KILLER swag item that everyone will want... maybe some sort of drop-leg bag holster (http://www.arniesairsoft.co.uk/reviews/maxpedition_thermite/photos/IMG_3888.JPG) with the Ninja Logo on it. this would be used as a booze holster in the party... the people who brought down a bottle (which was delivered by volunteers earlier) would holster said bottle in their leg bag, then just mix drinks all night for anyone they wished.

i picture a bar with 100% non-alcoholic beverages and cups and ice (the hotel can't get in a twist about that) and then the Riv just has to deal with the fact that everyone is having a good time on their own and they priced themselves right out of the equation.

like i say... this might not happen at all (or someone else takes the ball and runs with it) but it would be a way for us to have a great, fully "free drink" party in a skybox without hotel bartenders or even any kind of "open" bar at all

could some people just send an SMS and then not come down to the party? possibly... that's just the cost of doing business. i think that people would want their free gift and their minibosses concert more than a small 750 bottle of vodka or rum.

ck3k

07-01-2008, 08:49 AM

I have had the honor of attending the Ninja Networks party over the last couple of years and it has always been the best, most well thought out party of the evening. There is very little trouble, everyone is very cool and we are all there to just have a good time.

I was aware of some of the bs going on last year as I had gotten my badass Ninja Networks pass and was ready to go when I was told that the hotel was making demands for money. I have never liked the "Riv" as from year one for me things just felt out of place and that I was getting nickel and dimed by the hotel. I look forward to a new venue, maybe one that will echo how much fun I had at the Alexis Park.

Cheers to the Ninja Network guys and gals, been a pleasure knowing you guys ever since I was in high school driving out to Sacramento 2600 meetings.

pinguino

07-01-2008, 10:45 AM

LosT

07-01-2008, 11:36 AM

I would/will support the Ninjas in any surreptitious party plans ...

LosT

Deviant Ollam

07-01-2008, 12:21 PM

i would like to hear some specifics about what constitutes a "no alcohol being served" party in the hotel's mind. if people walk into a skybox holding a beer that they acquired elsewhere... is that legal? does the beer have to be in a cup or can it be in some sort of can or bottle?

what about a mixed drink? i'd seriously be willing to explore the notion of a hundred guests suddenly stopping by a skybox, all of whom happen to be carrying large bottles of Gatorade... you know, because, uh... dehydration is bad in the desert and they're all very conscientious about keeping their electrolytes balanced while they dance.

why would that not work? take the entire issue of alcohol service off of the Ninja's shoulders... people just all happen to have their own bottles of whatever in their pocket.

please feel free to let loose with your predictions about the numerous ways that the hotel could fuck people, as i'm sure there are some of you who, like me, always think of the worst case scenario.

icetre

07-01-2008, 12:35 PM

We will be looking for a new hotel..

DT,

I hate to say it, but I said something about this when the penthouse got kicked square in the nuts. I was told (not by you but by others) that I was "over-reacting" and that I was just a doom sayer.

Honestly This is the best thing we could hear from you! I'm very happy we're hotel shopping again. The riv was good in many ways, but in all too many it didn't meet our needs. Yeah the space was great, and they're responsive on the planning end, but their mob tactics and relentless control of our actions are just retarded. That's not to even mention absence of a proper poolcon, or lack of centralized areas to confer with our peers

Hopefully even if we don't get a new hotel, I hope a new contract is negotiated and these things are defined with proper caps on corkage fees, etc.

Ive said before that I'd be totally willing to buy booze directly from the hotel, provided they would sell it to me at $20 a quart, rather than the $50-75 the catering department charges. (considering I know for a *fact* they're paying $11 a quart for JB for instance.)

Anyways not to get off track but thank you! Hopefully we find something better! Or at least this situation improves.

To be honest, although I've defended the riv as a hotel choice even after our punishment, even going back to the AP would be an improvement. Yeah I know, attendance numbers wouldn't permit but I can dream...

Adam

barkode

07-01-2008, 02:30 PM

1. imagine flyers/tickets/something that say "send an SMS to this number for pre-ninja-party alcohol delivery to your room"
2. in the one or two hours leading up to the ninja party, a squad of volunteers blasts out to the first like 200+ rooms to send a text
3. the alcohol volunteers verify that the person who answers the room door is over 21, and they dispense with a bottle of something purchased from maybe a $2000 booze supply
4. they also give the room a ninja party ticket (follow me on this)
5. any people will be allowed in at the door if they are over 21 and the room isn't too packed... but those who actually bring a ticket down with them will get a KILLER swag item that everyone will want... maybe some sort of drop-leg bag holster (http://www.arniesairsoft.co.uk/reviews/maxpedition_thermite/photos/IMG_3888.JPG) with the Ninja Logo on it. this would be used as a booze holster in the party... the people who brought down a bottle (which was delivered by volunteers earlier) would holster said bottle in their leg bag, then just mix drinks all night for anyone they wished.

i picture a bar with 100% non-alcoholic beverages and cups and ice (the hotel can't get in a twist about that) and then the Riv just has to deal with the fact that everyone is having a good time on their own and they priced themselves right out of the equation.

We actually had thought about this, we'd even gone one step further and contemplated literally just giving out camelbaks pre-loaded with a drink to -every single guest-. This is actually cheaper to do than to pay the hotel what they wanted.

We'd also toyed around with the idea of just having a few people wear huge camelbaks and be mobile bartenders. There would be ice and cups for everybody, then just flag down someone with a camelbak and have them pour you a drink.

The problem is really simple - the hotel is hyper-aware of these events at this point and is going to keep an eye on them. Sooner or later, they're going to figure out that there's a lot of booze going around that people did not purchase from the hotel, and as soon as they find out where it's coming from, two things will happen.

First everyone involved on our side gets kicked off the property. Specifically myself, because the hotel knows I run the event. I can live with that.

Secondly, someone is going to going to be paying the hotel a huge sum of money for violating the booze rules. If I/we refuse to pay it, I guarantee you they're going to try to pass it on to DEFCON.

If I thought for certain that:

A. DEFCON would not get screwed
B. This was our last year on the property for sure

...then I might consider doing something like this, and let them 86 us if it came to that. But that also means that they're probably going to crash down hard on everyone else, and we have to think about that as well. If it was the last year here, perhaps the collateral damage wouldn't be relevant, as by the time it's rippled out, the con is over and we can just collectively give them the finger. But if we might be here another year, we can't be selfish and screw it up for everyone else.

On a side note, there's also simply the disenchantment factor. We put all this work in, and our only remaining obstacle is the hotel, and even with Charel negotiating for us, terms couldn't be reached. If the hotel is going to go out of their way to interfere with the event and make it more and more difficult and just throw up roadblock after roadblock, and even with Charel on board we don't have the support we need to get the hotel out of the way, then fuck it. Why even bother? We're just going to get screwed with non-stop the entire time, the hotel will just come up with reasons to take money from us and everyone else. I'm just not going to play the game at all.

I mean it's just a -private party- in a skybox that would otherwise generate zero revenue, it's not even a bar. We offered to pay corkage at hotel rates. They declined because they -know- we've got money because we paid last year and like any good business, they're not going to take less than they got last time. This is exactly what I'm talking about with setting precedents. Last year we set a bad precedent, and this year we got fucked for it. Can you imagine if we paid them what they want this year?

Deviant Ollam

07-01-2008, 02:38 PM

First everyone involved on our side gets kicked off the property. Specifically myself, because the hotel knows I run the event. I can live with that.you are very noble, but we can't all live with that coming down on you. that's part of the reason i liked the "Gatorade bottles" idea... it's decentralized and involves no stockpile of hooch being dispensed from a skybox-related venue. heh, think peer-to-peer in the torrent style. the Camelback idea (which i LOVED by the way) is too close to Napster... centralized resources that can be targeted and brought down.

Secondly, someone is going to going to be paying the hotel a huge sum of money for violating the booze rules.this is the way my poor, libertarian brain over-simplifies matters... but i immediately just come up with the question "what happens when people just tell the hotel to get fucked?"

we paid last year and like any good business, they're not going to take less than they got last time.i didn't want to ask so bluntly... but i am curious... the donation jars (which the bartenders treated like "tip jars" last year) exactly how were they "confiscated"? i mean... why not just refuse to hand them over and call some red shirts if the bartenders themselves tried to take them from you?

barkode

07-01-2008, 02:44 PM

i didn't want to ask so bluntly... but i am curious... the donation jars (which the bartenders treated like "tip jars" last year) exactly how were they "confiscated"? i mean... why not just refuse to hand them over and call some red shirts if the bartenders themselves tried to take them from you?

They took them and walked out. Someone said something to me, and by the time I was out of my chair, the two guys were long gone.

jedi

07-01-2008, 03:17 PM

Secondly, someone is going to going to be paying the hotel a huge sum of money for violating the booze rules.

The hotel has booze rules? I didn't realize that there were rules being enforced outside of their food/drink establishments.

this is the way my poor, libertarian brain over-simplifies matters... but i immediately just come up with the question "what happens when people just tell the hotel to get fucked?"

As for telling the hotel to fuck themselves, I'd say this is a very bad idea. First, Vegas is a pretty small town and it make the proposed hotel shopping DT mentioned harder. Second, I don't they'd have any problem forcing us to leave if provoked. I'll give you an example.

Sunday night last year, I was heading down from my room to meet some friends and happened upon a couple of folks sitting in chairs in one of the elevators. They were passing the time lounging in there, so I struck up a conversation. Eventually, I decided to join them. We grabbed more chairs and stopped back at my floor for a case of New Castle that I had lying round in the room. We eventually had two other guys join us and enjoyed some good conversation all the while the elevator continued in normal service.

Well, apparently someone didn't like the fact that we had occupied one of the elevators and let the hotel security staff know. We eventually stopped at one floor and a security officer in a suit walked in the door. While holding the door open, he told us forcefully that we had to exit the elevator and remove all furniture and beer from the car. Behind him were two security guards in uniforms ready to get physical. We cooperated and did not present them with any reason to make the encounter more serious. As we were removing the chairs, 4 more guards in uniform came running out of the stairwell and stopped next to the other uniforms.

While we were not physically touched nor 86'd, we were treated pretty poorly and told to disperse. I got the impression that if we had given them even the slightest of reasons, they would have escalated the situation and physically 86'd us. I will be more cautious this year around hotel security.

Dallas

07-01-2008, 03:55 PM

The Penthouse party has been broken up every year. How is this going to effect the EFF fundraiser where we are trying to raise funds for a good cause?

Finally..

I typically carry my booze in my backpack and share with anyone, can we not modify that to get around most of the requirements? I spend a lot of last year giving free shots to everyone in the hall.

- Dallas

DT,

I hate to say it, but I said something about this when the penthouse got kicked square in the nuts. I was told (not by you but by others) that I was "over-reacting" and that I was just a doom sayer.

Honestly This is the best thing we could hear from you! I'm very happy we're hotel shopping again. The riv was good in many ways, but in all too many it didn't meet our needs. Yeah the space was great, and they're responsive on the planning end, but their mob tactics and relentless control of our actions are just retarded. That's not to even mention absence of a proper poolcon, or lack of centralized areas to confer with our peers

Hopefully even if we don't get a new hotel, I hope a new contract is negotiated and these things are defined with proper caps on corkage fees, etc.

Ive said before that I'd be totally willing to buy booze directly from the hotel, provided they would sell it to me at $20 a quart, rather than the $50-75 the catering department charges. (considering I know for a *fact* they're paying $11 a quart for JB for instance.)

Anyways not to get off track but thank you! Hopefully we find something better! Or at least this situation improves.

To be honest, although I've defended the riv as a hotel choice even after our punishment, even going back to the AP would be an improvement. Yeah I know, attendance numbers wouldn't permit but I can dream...

Adam

noid

07-01-2008, 04:02 PM

T

Sunday night last year, I was heading down from my room to meet some friends and happened upon a couple of folks sitting in chairs in one of the elevators. They were passing the time lounging in there, so I struck up a conversation. Eventually, I decided to join them. We grabbed more chairs and stopped back at my floor for a case of New Castle that I had lying round in the room. We eventually had two other guys join us and enjoyed some good conversation all the while the elevator continued in normal service.

Well, apparently someone didn't like the fact that we had occupied one of the elevators and let the hotel security staff know. We eventually stopped at one floor and a security officer in a suit walked in the door. While holding the door open, he told us forcefully that we had to exit the elevator and remove all furniture and beer from the car. Behind him were two security guards in uniforms ready to get physical. We cooperated and did not present them with any reason to make the encounter more serious. As we were removing the chairs, 4 more guards in uniform came running out of the stairwell and stopped next to the other uniforms.

While we were not physically touched nor 86'd, we were treated pretty poorly and told to disperse. I got the impression that if we had given them even the slightest of reasons, they would have escalated the situation and physically 86'd us. I will be more cautious this year around hotel security.

Wait. You took over an elevator, put furniture in it, and are unhappy that the hotel took issue with it? Heck, you probably werent just violating their policy but maybe even a few fire codes too. Pick your battles..

And comparing that to what the ninjas have had to deal with..jeeze..

xor

07-01-2008, 04:14 PM

What about getting the event catered? Or an alcohol delivery service. I imagine events get catered all the time in Vegas. Just a thought and can be done on short notice,

xor

In the end it sounds like every person for themselves is going to be the best way to handle it this year thus protecting future cons.

jedi

07-01-2008, 04:17 PM

Wait. You took over an elevator, put furniture in it, and are unhappy that the hotel took issue with it? Heck, you probably werent just violating their policy but maybe even a few fire codes too. Pick your battles..

And comparing that to what the ninjas have had to deal with..jeeze..

You absolutely right that we were likely violating fire codes and that it was just as much about safety as it was inconvenience. We saw that almost immediately after the situation was resolved. But you miss my point.

I'm not comparing this in any way, shape or form to the issue currently being discussed in this thread regarding what the ninjas are dealing. In fact, the situation I point out was a random set of events and not an established gathering that has a history. I was only using it as an example to illustrate that I wouldn't want to cross the hotel (and by extension, hotel security) by telling the hotel staff to "get fucked".

If I left you with any other impression, my mistake. I'll chose my words even more carefully next time.

jedi

07-01-2008, 04:20 PM

What about getting the event catered? Or an alcohol delivery service. I imagine events get catered all the time in Vegas. Just a thought and can be done on short notice,

I believe there was a policy established via the hotel that deliveries were not to made to attendees of the con from outside vendors. Which is why the folks in my room ponied up the cash for a taxi to Costco for some supplies before the con started.

barkode

07-01-2008, 04:22 PM

What about getting the event catered? Or an alcohol delivery service. I imagine events get catered all the time in Vegas. Just a thought and can be done on short notice,

Catering in a hotel goes through that hotel's food and beverage department, with rare exception. Unfortunately, this is the exact department at the Riv that is screwing us.

noid

07-01-2008, 04:32 PM

I believe there was a policy established via the hotel that deliveries were not to made to attendees of the con from outside vendors. Which is why the folks in my room ponied up the cash for a taxi to Costco for some supplies before the con started.

You are correct. A fine upstanding hacker out of NYC bought a few kegs for us security goons. Hotel told him initially that it was OK since they were going to us and not for a party or for resale. When they showed up, they turned them away. When it comes to food and beverage, the hotel doesn't like others peeing in their pool. That, however, will be the case just about anywhere though, its not just the Riv being cocks. We even deal with that at the Pasadena Hilton for LayerOne

icetre

07-01-2008, 04:40 PM

The rates for their catering department to deliver you a bottle of booze are in the order of 50-75 a *quart*

$2000 would disappear very quickly with those kinds of prices.

Adam

What about getting the event catered? Or an alcohol delivery service. I imagine events get catered all the time in Vegas. Just a thought and can be done on short notice,

xor

In the end it sounds like every person for themselves is going to be the best way to handle it this year thus protecting future cons.

DJ Jackalope

07-01-2008, 04:45 PM

*is watching, open-mouthed, and more than slightly horrified*

winn

07-01-2008, 05:32 PM

I know... the facts get in the way of reality... or some shit like that... I posted before I heard DT will look for new venue...

I know many of us miss the freedom of the AP... and it seems just such as damn shame... and OK... I'll shut up untl and unless I get a brainstorm. Or, count me in in a counter-con-party (not against DC, you know ... )

Thinking hard... AND SEND ME FRICKING QUESTIONS!!!! :-)))

Winn

Winn,

Generally speaking, I couldn't agree more. Ingenuity is a virtue, after all.

The issue here isn't that we couldn't come up with alternative plans. There's a lot of alternative plans that sound good on the surface, until you start to think about them logistically.

Most alternative plans involve a change of venue, and this is a really big problem. Besides the simple fact that hackers are notoriously difficult to get from one place to another, getting people safely and expeditiously to and from the location becomes an additional expense.

On a more intangible level - just having the event offsite makes it less convenient to just wander up to casually. It makes it a "thing" that requires forethought and dominates your time, and on top of that, it takes people away from DEFCON, which is counterproductive.

Then there's the art installations, the access control, the SMS wall, the video games, the band, the sound system, the other cool tech stuff, etc, etc, etc. We'd need to get it to and from the other venue, and some of it is designed specifically for the Riviera room.

Could we make something work if we REALLY wanted to? Absolutely. But it wouldn't be the same. It would be spending a lot of money, it would be settling. Could we totally pull some hacker shit? Absolutely. But there's other factors to consider...

If we wanted to overtly break the rules, or just pay the hotel, or lower our expectations, or totally social engineer some crazy shit, or if I wanted to throw a gigantic fit about it and make a huge terrible political mess, we could figure out a way to throw an event at the Riviera. But out of respect for DEFCON we did not want to break the rules to such an extent, and out of respect for ourselves and everyone else, we didn't want to throw a half-ass event.

Throwing the event off-site - that's just a really different thing altogether. We could do it, but we really don't want to. It's just not the same thing.

The easy solution would be a corporate sponsor, right? Well, that is actually on the table. But one thing we had to take into consideration was that we don't want to set a precedent for those that come after us, or for other similar events at DEFCON. If we pony up this kind of cash, the hotel is going to want that from others as well. It's going to set a precedent that you have to seriously pay to play, and that's just not the DEFCON spirit. Reasonable expenses are one thing. Borderline extortion is another. We don't want to screw things up for everyone else later. As soon as the hotel knows they can get this kind of money for unofficial events, they're going to continue to tighten the belt and squeeze money out of everyone they think will pay up.

So yes, we could start pulling cards out of our sleeves and "get away" with something, but there's some intangible factors to consider.

icetre

07-01-2008, 05:50 PM

You are correct. A fine upstanding hacker out of NYC bought a few kegs for us security goons. Hotel told him initially that it was OK since they were going to us and not for a party or for resale. When they showed up, they turned them away. When it comes to food and beverage, the hotel doesn't like others peeing in their pool. That, however, will be the case just about anywhere though, its not just the Riv being cocks. We even deal with that at the Pasadena Hilton for LayerOne

Where they *are* being cocks is, the extortion they're calling 'Hospitality Violations' .
Where they *are* being cocks is, the fact they've been caught *lying* several times, by several individuals.
Where they *are* being cocks is, the hostile and over-reaction of their security department to any 'issue'.
Where they *are* being cocks is, the outright *theft* of money from the ninjas.

I could go on forever, but the fact remains, that even if the convention stays at the hotel, off-sites will become more prevalent and as such more of their money walks out the door, where as if they would have played ball with us they could have had *all* of our money instead they'll get as little as I can give them and get away with it.

Instead of extorting money from the ninjas, why not upsell them into a ballroom for 8k or something?

It's this kind of horrible decision making and mismanagement that has lead to one of the last remaining vestiges of 'Old Vegas' becoming a hangout for N. LV Trailer trash and the Wal-Mart set.

Just to give some perspective on this:

They wanted 12k from the ninjas?

Here's what you get for 8k more...

http://www.palms.com/suites_villas_5.php

And I'm sure they'd kiss your fucking ass as well..

For fuck's sake, they're the Riviera! How long have the rumors of imminent demolition been lingering?

Bah!

Adam

icetre

07-01-2008, 05:54 PM

Actually, I'm mistaken; This suite as of 8/08/08 is available for 10k and for many other days at 5k a night.

Where they *are* being cocks is, the extortion they're calling 'Hospitality Violations' .
Where they *are* being cocks is, the fact they've been caught *lying* several times, by several individuals.
Where they *are* being cocks is, the hostile and over-reaction of their security department to any 'issue'.
Where they *are* being cocks is, the outright *theft* of money from the ninjas.

I could go on forever, but the fact remains, that even if the convention stays at the hotel, off-sites will become more prevalent and as such more of their money walks out the door, where as if they would have played ball with us they could have had *all* of our money instead they'll get as little as I can give them and get away with it.

Instead of extorting money from the ninjas, why not upsell them into a ballroom for 8k or something?

It's this kind of horrible decision making and mismanagement that has lead to one of the last remaining vestiges of 'Old Vegas' becoming a hangout for N. LV Trailer trash and the Wal-Mart set.

Just to give some perspective on this:

They wanted 12k from the ninjas?

Here's what you get for 8k more...

http://www.palms.com/suites_villas_5.php

And I'm sure they'd kiss your fucking ass as well..

For fuck's sake, they're the Riviera! How long have the rumors of imminent demolition been lingering?

Bah!

Adam

Dallas

07-01-2008, 10:52 PM

So - What is the status, are all parties in trouble? Do we need to setup a network of hopping from room to room?

Move it across the street?

-Dallas

Actually, I'm mistaken; This suite as of 8/08/08 is available for 10k and for many other days at 5k a night.

icetre

07-02-2008, 01:13 AM

barkode

07-02-2008, 02:09 AM

Being that defcon is canceled; I don't think it matters. :)

I've already called. Circus Circus has a SWANK suite that's perfect for the needs of a party like the Ninja's or ours. $1600 a night, the room can handle 150 people and it's got a dancefloor type area with a balcony. Not one but two bathrooms and up to 6 bedrooms.

Take a look at this page, and look at the last floorplan the 'executive suite'

Problem is, It's got the exact same issue; house food and booze only.

This is going to be a real problem as long as we stay in Vegas (I know, I know) Other cities have similar rules, but it seems to be much easier to make people turn a blind eye elsewhere.

The only secret sauce here is just finding a hotel that's willing to cut a reasonable deal for sub-events when it comes to food and beverage, taking into consideration that the sub-event in question is affiliated with DEFCON. That's really all there is to it.

If the Riviera more intelligently weighed the overall value of DEFCON into their decisions in extending discounts to sub-events such as ours, we'd be good to go.

Also to clarify things a bit, I think some people are wondering why it seems that we "gave up so easily" with the Riv event and didn't really go balls-out trying to force/con/social engineer them into an alternative arrangement. Even some of my Ninja compatriots are giving me a bit of the evil eye.

Where's the lateral thinking, eh?

The long and short of it is that cnelson and myself (we're primarily the pre-planners) felt the hotel was going to be a constant barrier between us and the event no matter what deal we arranged with them, plain and simple. Even if we got a more amicable financial arrangement, we just weren't feeling comfortable with relying on them to not screw us somehow on-site, or generally make our lives difficult. We just realized that the hotel was going to be between us and the event the whole time, and when you're hauling truckloads of metal art and a bunch of plasma screens and various other shit out from California, you don't want to have a shaky relationship with the hotel. If we had to cancel the event once we were already on-site, well... man. It takes a lot these days to ruffle my feathers, but that would certainly do it.

Of course we could have thrown a big fit and got a whole bunch of people involved and probably even ended up getting a complete waiver for the thing, but again, the tradeoff to get to that arrangement would have involved pulling favors and just turning it into a real negative thing, caused a bunch of unnecessary tension between DEFCON and hotel, etc.

Hope that clears that up a bit.

xor

07-02-2008, 05:36 AM

The only secret sauce here is just finding a hotel that's willing to cut a reasonable deal for sub-events when it comes to food and beverage, taking into consideration that the sub-event in question is affiliated with DEFCON. That's really all there is to it.

If the Riviera more intelligently weighed the overall value of DEFCON into their decisions in extending discounts to sub-events such as ours, we'd be good to go.

Also to clarify things a bit, I think some people are wondering why it seems that we "gave up so easily" with the Riv event and didn't really go balls-out trying to force/con/social engineer them into an alternative arrangement. Even some of my Ninja compatriots are giving me a bit of the evil eye.

Where's the lateral thinking, eh?

The long and short of it is that cnelson and myself (we're primarily the pre-planners) felt the hotel was going to be a constant barrier between us and the event no matter what deal we arranged with them, plain and simple. Even if we got a more amicable financial arrangement, we just weren't feeling comfortable with relying on them to not screw us somehow on-site, or generally make our lives difficult. We just realized that the hotel was going to be between us and the event the whole time, and when you're hauling truckloads of metal art and a bunch of plasma screens and various other shit out from California, you don't want to have a shaky relationship with the hotel. If we had to cancel the event once we were already on-site, well... man. It takes a lot these days to ruffle my feathers, but that would certainly do it.

Of course we could have thrown a big fit and got a whole bunch of people involved and probably even ended up getting a complete waiver for the thing, but again, the tradeoff to get to that arrangement would have involved pulling favors and just turning it into a real negative thing, caused a bunch of unnecessary tension between DEFCON and hotel, etc.

Hope that clears that up a bit.

Barkode, that's good enough for me. The initial shock and disappointment got the best of me; sorry I understand that you are dealing with the U word here and they can be a difficult group to deal with in any/all arenas.

So what ever happens we will all still make it a Defcon to be remembered. :-)

xor

It's been a crappy couple of weeks for news. The shit stream is really on and I think we are all really feeling it. From jobs, politics, the wars, the economy, gas, 600 Star Bucks being closed, MS Windows XP not being sold anymore, plus life's ups and downs and now no party, & no Star Trek experience we are all feeling the pain. OUCHY!!!!

I think the music in my sig ironically saids it all.

Deviant Ollam

07-02-2008, 08:13 AM

It's been a crappy couple of weeks for news... 600 Star Bucks being closed, MS Windows XP not being sold anymore... we are all feeling the pain.heh, i fear it's going to be a while before you live that quote down, my good chum. if we were on IRC right now that would so become a channel topic for a few hours. :wink:

LosT

07-02-2008, 09:06 AM

icetre

07-02-2008, 10:27 AM

I meant to post the link, but didn't..

For anyone that was curious and didn't find it;

http://www.circuscircus.com/meetings/floor_plans.aspx

The last plan on that page is the one I was talking about, It's $1600..

They were supposed to be sending me a catering menu, but I haven't seen anything yet. I'm pretty concerned actually, because I was talking about taking the suite for 4 days. I don't understand why they'd shrug off 6400 like that, but I guess I'm just small potatoes.

Adam

Being that defcon is canceled; I don't think it matters. :)

I've already called. Circus Circus has a SWANK suite that's perfect for the needs of a party like the Ninja's or ours. $1600 a night, the room can handle 150 people and it's got a dancefloor type area with a balcony. Not one but two bathrooms and up to 6 bedrooms.

Take a look at this page, and look at the last floorplan the 'executive suite'

Problem is, It's got the exact same issue; house food and booze only.

This is going to be a real problem as long as we stay in Vegas (I know, I know) Other cities have similar rules, but it seems to be much easier to make people turn a blind eye elsewhere.

TheCotMan

07-02-2008, 10:33 AM

Since we are talking about closures, SharperImage is going away (not that I'm crying about that)- BUT you can buy anything, even the fixtures and furniture...

Back on topic:

The sad fact of the matter is that if the Ninja party moves away from the CON hotel it will cut numbers (maybe a good thing in this case?)-

Having it away from the Riv decreases opportunity for Goons to attend, but if they could still attend anyway...

Having it off-site, but nearby could be fun... A party could publish a series of clues which help to solve riddles that would direct people to the location of the party. The game with riddles and clues could even take place over Friday and Saturday ending on Saturday night, with people at the clue locations to validate answers, or give people the next step in the puzzle.

Sure, this kind of thing has been done on reality TV, and as a spectator event, it would be rather boring, but participating could be great fun.

You could even use a system of gates that open based on certain times, so anyone that is really stuck at an early phase is permitted to advance. With some cooperation from other people running other contests, you might even be able to have clues exist in other contests on the contest floor.

And the goal? Find the party.

What? You say this kind of thing has been done before? This idea is not original? So?

Deviant Ollam

07-02-2008, 11:36 AM

Not to frown on anyone else's suggestions... but anything that is off-site is a totally bad idea, in my opinion. You totally blow the "roaming" factor... people who can scoot upstairs to grab something they wanted in their room, people who can wander over into the movie night if the party is too packed, etc, etc, etc.

If it's at a skybox, you can send a txt message to a dozen people at 2 AM and say "holy crap... i thought they were done but Lope is pulling out her records now and it looks like we're in for another set... get down here!" and you'll have like ten of those people show up. Off-site, you'd be met with nothing but grumbles and "oh, man... wish i could... maybe i can find a way to get there in a half hour or something" sort of replies.

I would personally hold out hope that DT or someone can pressure the Riv into a better situation for us. Let it be no bar at all in the skybox (a pair of hallway bars would suffice, for the suckers not bringing their own booze) and people can just walk around carrying their own drinks in whatever cups or containers they wish. Let everyone be responsible for their own liquid entertainment (community ingenuity will win through on that one) and let the chips fall where they may.

I realize that Barkode and others have said that they are backing out now, and i understand the whole point of putting their foot down. But for god's sake... DEFCON without a Ninja party? i mean what the hell, next we're going to find out that the HackerPimps will be hiring local school teachers to stand on table tops and just instruct us all about fractions.

lil_freak

07-02-2008, 12:37 PM

:cry:Very sad indeed.

:frown:Who will attack me with ninja weapons in the hall after the party ends now? Barkode, you guys have always rocked in my book with your parties and memories of them or at least the parts we remember will live on.

barkode

07-02-2008, 02:42 PM

I would personally hold out hope that DT or someone can pressure the Riv into a better situation for us. Let it be no bar at all in the skybox (a pair of hallway bars would suffice, for the suckers not bringing their own booze) and people can just walk around carrying their own drinks in whatever cups or containers they wish. Let everyone be responsible for their own liquid entertainment (community ingenuity will win through on that one) and let the chips fall where they may.

Oh we could probably run the event dry, I'm sure the Riv would agree to that, and make people go fishing for booze elsewhere. But what's a party without a bar? In reality, people would spend half of their time on the mission to get a drink.

If there was to be another DEFCON at the Riv, what we need is simple - a waiver or substantial discount on corkage for sub-events, and a reasonable fee for bar setup assuming that we have to use Riviera bartenders. That's it. That would keep the "overhead" to under $1k per bar, and we could probably live with that.

I realize that Barkode and others have said that they are backing out now, and i understand the whole point of putting their foot down. But for god's sake... DEFCON without a Ninja party?

Yeah, Saturday night is going to be really weird. I guess I'll just go get dinner and go to bed? Also half of my July just became free (sans HOPE) as we no longer have to build all this stuff.

If all that's left is a couple small dj-in-a-room type things running cash bars, and other gatherings getting harassed and/or shut down by the hotel over booze, I get the feeling Saturday night is going to be pretty dead. People will probably just go their separate ways.

Pretty anti-climatic, and it really blows that we won't get everyone together again.

che

07-05-2008, 07:50 PM

Deviant Ollam

07-05-2008, 08:26 PM

Hmm.. maybe a BYOCB party? (Bring your own Camel Back).
I am sure the Riv staff would have a fun time trying to figure out why everyone is running around with 3 liter hydration packs on. And the bonus: you can drink while taking a piss and never have to touch your drink container! :-)i strongly support a Camelback party.

I'd like to publicly ask... Barkode, what would it take for you and the Ninjas to participate in some sort of party this year? There was just so much work that it seems like you did, pre-planning and all. If we told the hotel that there was going to be a skybox party but that it was without any bar service at all.. i think that would be a good thing. Tell them that they are free to setup bars out in the hallways in the corners (they've done that in the past) but to just stay outta the skyboxes (the argument could be made that we don't want to get hit with additional like you were last year)

I would personally contribute as much of my time and resources possible to see camelbacks go to many, many interested people. How about a system that invovles colored glow bracelets and/or necklaces? Red == fruity rum cocktail, Orange = Vodka screwdriver, Yellow = Gin and Tonic with Lemon, etc etc. Then that actually encourages people to seek out other partygoers and so forth until the free drinks run out. I just imagine the fun of people sidling up, asking for a quick fix like deadheads trying to score one toke out of a bowl. When anyone's Camelback goes dry... they just take off their glow necklace.

I picture the Minibosses going to town and a room full of people who feel special since they have "secret" knowledge while at the same time the hotel bar just outside in the hallway would still be doing some fair degree of business anyway, keeping them happy.

Hell... even if we can't do this in a skybox, this should totally be the plan for the B&W ball and have the minibosses play there. I don't know... i'm just trying to pull out any ideas possible that can involve us still having what is arguably the most important part of DEFCON for many people.

Anything I can do I will do to help.

Dallas

07-05-2008, 11:30 PM

Out of Curiosity, it seemed to work well last year at some parties to have the Riv on one side, and the Defcon bar outside in the seats or at the 2nd bar (in the larger rooms).. I know we paid one bartender a $ 200 tip to go with it.

- Dallas

i strongly support a Camelback party.

I'd like to publicly ask... Barkode, what would it take for you and the Ninjas to participate in some sort of party this year? There was just so much work that it seems like you did, pre-planning and all. If we told the hotel that there was going to be a skybox party but that it was without any bar service at all.. i think that would be a good thing. Tell them that they are free to setup bars out in the hallways in the corners (they've done that in the past) but to just stay outta the skyboxes (the argument could be made that we don't want to get hit with additional like you were last year)

I would personally contribute as much of my time and resources possible to see camelbacks go to many, many interested people. How about a system that invovles colored glow bracelets and/or necklaces? Red == fruity rum cocktail, Orange = Vodka screwdriver, Yellow = Gin and Tonic with Lemon, etc etc. Then that actually encourages people to seek out other partygoers and so forth until the free drinks run out. I just imagine the fun of people sidling up, asking for a quick fix like deadheads trying to score one toke out of a bowl. When anyone's Camelback goes dry... they just take off their glow necklace.

I picture the Minibosses going to town and a room full of people who feel special since they have "secret" knowledge while at the same time the hotel bar just outside in the hallway would still be doing some fair degree of business anyway, keeping them happy.

Hell... even if we can't do this in a skybox, this should totally be the plan for the B&W ball and have the minibosses play there. I don't know... i'm just trying to pull out any ideas possible that can involve us still having what is arguably the most important part of DEFCON for many people.

Anything I can do I will do to help.

astcell

07-06-2008, 12:59 AM

Seems many people would love to have our population in Las Vegas.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/down-and-out-in-las-vegas-860513.html

Down and out in Las Vegas

The good-time capital of the US has hit a losing streak. Guy Adams reports on an epidemic of bankruptcies, foreclosures and mass lay-offs

Saturday, 5 July 2008

Since the day Las Vegas was created in the shimmering Nevada desert, visitors have been drawn by one simple promise: "What happens in Vegas stays in Vegas". The motto adorns the city's road signs, and has inspired everything from its souvenir T-shirts to the local tourist board's seductive advertising campaigns.

These days, that motto is imbued with a worrying sense of irony. Because America's most outrageous city is facing a growing multitude of problems, and they all boil down to a single, unavoidable point: right now, far too little happens in Vegas, because not enough people are actually staying there.

The onset of global slowdown, high petrol prices, and a nation-wide housing slump is spelling disaster for a town that owes every aspect of its wealth – from that gaudy replica of the Eiffel Tower to those scale models of Venetian canals and the Pyramids of Egypt – to its ability to inspire free-spending hedonism.

With Americans cutting back on luxuries, and the price of transport rocketing, the so-called "Vegas vacation" is facing the axe. This week, as the nation celebrated Independence Day, major hotels were taking stock of a fall in all-important room occupancy rates from their usually impressive 95 per cent levels to nearer 80 per cent.

More worryingly, new figures showed gambling revenue has also dropped – a further 3 per cent this month – starting a price war between worried firms anxious to lure punters back. Hotel rooms, which last year averaged $130 each, now go for less than $100 (£50).

At the vast Planet Hollywood resort, the clatter of fruit machines and poker chips was this week replaced by an uneasy – and, for Vegas, very unusual – calm. A large if slightly tatty double room could be found for less than $80.

No tourist resort can afford to lose its buzz. Yet the slump now runs so deep it's starting to hurt even the town's Elvis impersonators, wedding chapels, and sex industry. When money's tight, the prospect of stuffing another $20 bill into a lap-dancer's gyrating stocking-top somehow doesn't seem quite so enticing.

"This year already we've seen the Minx closing, the Mensa club closing, and the Crazy Horse closing," says Dolores Eliades, owner of the OG, the second biggest "adult cabaret" venue in the world. "By another 12 months from now, I expect another two or three major venues will have gone.

"We've seen a drop in custom here too: maybe 180 people coming in when before we got 200. It's a difficult business, but the girls still have to make a living. We will survive because we own our own premises, we have a good name and location, we don't buy on credit, and we've been around for a long time. But we're very lucky in that respect."

To quantify the Vegas slump, look to the stock market. Shares in casino operators, the engine room of an economy reliant on its liberal attitude to public morality, have been haemmoraging value like a down-on-his-luck gambler.

Las Vegas Sands, which controls the Venetian and Palazzo resorts on the famous neon-lit Strip that runs through a "miracle mile," has dropped below $50 a share, a third of its value last September. MGM is at $28, from over $100 a year ago. Wynn resorts, owned by the ebullient billionaire Steve Wynn – a Texan version of Donald Trump – neared $70, from almost $180 last year.

This week, in an attempt to prevent financial meltdown, Nevada's Tourism Alliance convened an "Air Crisis Briefing" in an effort to prevent airline plans to halve the number of flights to the resort. The city's gut-busting "eat all you can" buffets are also being scaled back to account for the US's 4 per cent food inflation. Where a long queue of obesity once trailed across The Bellagio hotel restaurant's ornate carpets, demand for its famous (but now pricey) lunch buffet had on Thursday slowed to a trickle. In what sounds suspiciously like a panic measure, the Golden Gate Hotel this month even said it was doubling the price of its signature 99 cent shrimp cocktail.

For the inhabitants of the desert resort, which was founded in 1905 and became prosperous after gambling was legalised in 1931, it's no joking matter. The growing unemployment crisis (MGM just axed another 400 middle-managers), plus a downturn in the tips that form a significant portion of the Vegas economy, has a human cost, too.

Local bankruptcies have quadrupled. The property market, which rode the wave of a boom for most of the past decade is now below its peak by anything from a quarter to a third (depending on whose figures you believe), while Nevada now boasts, if that is the right word, the nation's highest foreclosure rate.

The number of empty homes has caused a health scare after it emerged that mosquitoes – possibly carrying the killer West Nile virus – are breeding in abandoned swimming pools. "We've had crews pumping out pools every day this week," Devin Smith, who manages the city's Neighborhood Response Division, told the Las Vegas Review Journal. "Two years ago, we may have pumped six pools in a season. Now we're probably pumping that a week."

Other sectors of Las Vegas aren't looking too healthy, either. Attendance at conventions, which account for roughly a quarter of the city's income, dropped by 7 per cent this year as impoverished firms cut back on their delegations to recession-hit events such as the Homebuilders Convention.

"The current rate of overall unemployment in this state is 6.2 per cent, the highest since May 1994," said Jered McDonald, an economist with the Nevada Employment, Training and Rehabilitation Department. "Las Vegas seems to be getting the worst of it. Other parts [of the state] aren't so bad; in fact the gold-mining industry is booming, so the drop in employment in big metropolitan areas is actually bigger than that figure suggests.

"With the high oil prices, people don't have much disposable income to spend on gaming and entertainment. So we are looking at a short-term slump, certainly. In the longer term, everything depends on what's going to happen to oil prices."

But the biggest threat of all is that Las Vegas might somehow be perceived to have lost its buzz. Like any tourist economy, the city's fortunes depend squarely on being seen as a "hot" destination, a tag that becomes difficult to justify if potential visitors hear reports that the place is struggling.

As a result, no major strip operators are publicly advertising their new low room rates. None would be interviewed for this article, regardless of the concerns shareholders might have for their fortunes. A spokesman for Wynn Las Vegas, for example, said "Respectfully, we must decline" the opportunity to discuss trading conditions.

And on the horizon is further strife. As a hangover from the frenzied growth of two years ago, Las Vegas is also in the grip of a speculative building boom, with dozens of cranes towering over the Strip.

Wynn Resorts is building a $2.2bn hotel, and Encore and MGM are spending $9.2bn on a 76-acre project called CityCenter. More than 40,000 new rooms will exist in four years, in a city that has 7 per cent of America'shotel beds. The prevailing emotion among business leaders is a mixture of optimism and denial. The Association of Greater Las Vegas Realtors, for example, claims the housing market is finally turning the corner after a "correction" to the long-running bull market that had made Vegas America's hottest location for almost a decade. Rick Shelton, the association's vice- president, insists that the long-term future is rosy and, to illustrate his point, draws a diagram on a napkin in a local cocktail bar. It consists of a circle with the initials "BLM" written outside it.

"This is the map of Vegas," he said. "Inside that circle is the city. Outside it, everything is owned by the Bureau of Land Management. So there's really nowhere else for the city to expand. And yet, the census bureau has forecast that the population of Vegas will grow from two million now to three million by 2016. There's nowhere for those people to go. So this town is another Tokyo, with land as a commodity. You fly in here and you see desert and you think, 'Building, building, building'. But it can't be built on, so prices must go up. And all those Harvard economists are missing that key component when doing their prognosis of our market. The way I see it, we have been in check, and are now aligned for the next spurt, and I'm talking a power arc that's got between seven and 10 years to run."

Dolores Eliades says the history of Las Vegas shows it will find a way to adapt and survive. "Historically, Las Vegas is able to withstand the problems of the rest of the country. When people face hard economic times, they come here to get away from their problems. In the US, people are escape artists, and they deal with problems a little differently from the rest of the world. I believe the history of this town proves I'm right, I really do."

astcell

07-06-2008, 01:43 AM

Barkode --

I was never invited to your fine party, though I heard many good words about it. This is a travesty. Your alls party is a DefCon treat! How does this get fixed going forward? Or does it get fixed at all? Seems the folks in LV don't love us any more. OOOOO! I have an idea! Let's transplant Con to Tejas! It's hot, dry and there is a lake near by. Sounds like LV to me!

Regards,

valkyrie

I see simple math. Let's say that we ask the hotel to provide the bartenders and booze. Now let's say we get 4 bartenders and they can make a drink a minute. This is fast for them, I have seen how slow they move.

Now we have 4 drinks a minute, or 240 an hour. A four hour party means 960 drinks. At $6 a drink they get $5,760. Subtract their expenses, wages, dishes, maybe they net $5,000. Max. So someone ought to figure out what they get for a profit and that ought to be their corkage fee, Any more is literally robbery. Let them work for it and regret it.

Have their bartenders there. Riviera bartenders are as useful to me as a kotex dispenser. I'll just walk right by and go get my own damn drink. Who is to say they cannot be at the party? We just won't use them.

I am on the fence about tipping them. Does it go to the bartender or into a big coffer? What if the Ninjas set up the party an no one bought from the hotel bar staff in the party skybox?

Another sad thing is the way they treat us, as if we have already done something wrong. The AP eventually decided that defcon will simply buy them new walkway lights every year. No one was concerned. No guns were draw or warrants served over a walkway light. They got over it very fast. AS for their guards, chalk up their antics to ignorance.

We were told (warned) years ago that things were very different at hotels that have casinos in them. And indeed they are. Security sees anyone not dressed like them as a potential threat. That is their job. I am sure they watched Oceans Eleven 157 times and figured out how they can stop the bad guys and they are itching for the day they can strut their stuff. And if we act like idiots we hand then their headline on a silver platter.

The worst part for ALL concerned (including the hotel) is the lack of commo. Icetre had a deal with one person that was soon worthless. Security can say "This party is shut down because ______" and make up the rest of the blank. Their left and right hands don't talk. Their left hand is in our till and their right hand is on the trigger. Almost makes one want to hire the mob for protection and alcohol.

Rest assured, cooncon will never have this issue!

TheCotMan

07-06-2008, 01:51 AM

From Oct, 2007:
Las Vegas will become a modern ghost town. Costs of electricity, transportation of goods, access to water, and more will cause it to become too expensive to keep it running while other gambling locations like tribal gaming, Lake Tahoe, or Reno are available and closer to access people from LA and Orange County.

Seems many people would love to have our population in Las Vegas.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/down-and-out-in-las-vegas-860513.html...

I don't think *this* down-turn is going to be the one that turns Vegas into a Ghost town, but it is a shadow from the future. This down-turn isn't enough, by itself, to kill Las Vegas -- far from it. however the same weapons used in its future suicide are in plain sight right now.

barkode

07-06-2008, 01:57 AM

i strongly support a Camelback party.

I'd like to publicly ask... Barkode, what would it take for you and the Ninjas to participate in some sort of party this year? There was just so much work that it seems like you did, pre-planning and all. If we told the hotel that there was going to be a skybox party but that it was without any bar service at all.. i think that would be a good thing. Tell them that they are free to setup bars out in the hallways in the corners (they've done that in the past) but to just stay outta the skyboxes (the argument could be made that we don't want to get hit with additional like you were last year)

The overall vibe we are getting from the hotel is "we are going to fuck with you this year unless you do this our way, period."

I think if a few hundred people were suddenly drinking from matching camelbacks that quite obviously were *intended* to bust up their monopoly on booze, they're most certainly going to shut it down and are also going to flip out on DT, Charel, etc.

So do we throw an event knowing that there's a moderate chance the hotel will just arbitrarily shut it down? For instance, they look inside and see a bunch of people with drinks, accuse us of breaking the rules, and just shut it down?

The hell with that. We've got a vote of no-confidence on these people, so no matter how good the plan is, we can't throw an event at the Riv. It's not worth the risk of an arbitrary shut-down. Not with the amount of work we put into it.

If we were to do something it would be offsite and it would be big as hell and probably paid for by a sponsor. But that's probably not going to happen this year, as we're not actively courting sponsors.

We're really just bitter about the whole thing.

barkode

07-06-2008, 02:12 AM

I see simple math. Let's say that we ask the hotel to provide the bartenders and booze. Now let's say we get 4 bartenders and they can make a drink a minute. This is fast for them, I have seen how slow they move.

Now we have 4 drinks a minute, or 240 an hour. A four hour party means 960 drinks. At $6 a drink they get $5,760. Subtract their expenses, wages, dishes, maybe they net $5,000. Max. So someone ought to figure out what they get for a profit and that ought to be their corkage fee, Any more is literally robbery. Let them work for it and regret it.

This was essentially what the hotel wanted to do - but the math is a little off.

There's also bar-setup fees, and the drink costs could be anywhere from $6 to $8. We also calculated out about 6 hours (9pm to 3am, roughly). The cost comes out to just north of $10k for drinks, then add setup fees + tips + cleanup + etc, which ends up being more like $13k-$15k.

This versus $2,000 for booze and setup from Lee's Discount Liquor, and running our own bar at the Alexis Park.

Or alternatively, paying a $2500 corkage fee (more than the entire booze cost) to the Riviera, and leaving our total booze-related costs at $4500, already high but something we could -consider- if we essentially gave them the profits from the Ninjagear table.

I understand that the food and beverage people need to make money, but they also need to reasonably compromise when they're dealing with sub-events at existing, large events. There's a middle ground where everyone can be happy, and they're just not willing to meet us there.

astcell

07-06-2008, 11:38 AM

Sounds like if you DID agree to their terms, the terms may just be changed again if they smell money, like with Icetre.

I bet the mob hates the competition!

converge

07-06-2008, 12:01 PM

Thats the strange thing though, isn't it? Businessmen love guaranteed money. You find a way of maximizing the profit and you take it ... it seems that some hotels have a hard time figuring that out and would prefer $0. Car dealerships are odd like this too, where they won't sell a volume of their vehicles at a low profit margin to an educated buyer but would rather take the risk of sitting on them until an unsuspecting dope walks up saying 'i think i need a new car'

Wing

07-06-2008, 03:40 PM

It's the Riviera. If the management had a clue, people would at least remember to mention it when talking about the north end of the strip. The construction sites have more appeal (Indeed, if management had a clue, the Riviera would probably BE a construction site)

[Syntax]

07-07-2008, 12:45 AM

Im good with whatever people decide to do. I have no problem with the BYOB thing, but the whole situation is disturbing. I want to say I never imagined a hotel in Vegas would be so anal about things, but then I think about how many things went unnoticed or at least noticed without confrontation at the AP.

Last year many people were harassed for simply loitering in the main hallway downstairs, that is rather ridiculous. These are paying guests of a hotel, convention or not, and the hotel is going to yell at them rudely to move out of the hallway. If they think Im going to loiter at their bar they are mistaken.

I encountered security being total asses without any respect for guests, multiple times when people were doing absolutely nothing wrong.

mfreeck

07-07-2008, 01:22 PM

Just to rehash the camelbak idea because I like it.

I don't see why people are talking about *organizing* people with camelbaks. We are all self sufficient people, there's no reason people can't byob in a non-alcohol container. Don't or can't buy booze? Great! BYOMixer. I'd also like to point out that a decent sized camelbak should support 2 bladders (more if you put them inside, but it's not as graceful and more hose confusion). It just makes more sense to me not to make one mix, but to have one for booze (more capacity) and have the mixer separate (in my case, one for booze, one for water and trade for mixers).

I understand the ninjas can't take a chance on a big organized party this year, but I predict with the slap down put on organized parties, the party will just metastisize.

Really the Riv should be thinking about what happens when the party is every defcon attendee wandering the hotel. Is it easier to deal with 500 drunken people in one room, or 4000 mobile bartenders?

Deviant Ollam

07-07-2008, 01:28 PM

can camelbacks be worn, how do i mean to say this... "upside down" so that the drinking hose can act as just an on/off pouring spout? the way i've seen camelbacks work often involves sucking on the straw.

sharing cocktails in that manner is fine between folks who are friends and/or lovers... but i think we don't need to start MeningitisCon if we don't need to. once larger circles of people are involved, a simple "squirt into the cup" solution would work well.

... but something a bit less conspicuous than a bug sprayer, perhaps.

** looks and chuckles in Dallas' direction **

che

07-07-2008, 01:52 PM

I would suggest having your drink already mixed in the pack. It is my understanding that pure distilled spirits in the bag could wear down the hydration bladder and the hoses. Besides.. why go through all the trouble of having to mix a drink when you can just wear it on your back and sip? It is like a feeding bag for booze! :-)

theprez98

07-07-2008, 02:40 PM

the party will just metastasize...
That's 72 scrabble points! :wink:

valanx

07-07-2008, 05:04 PM

can camelbacks be worn, how do i mean to say this... "upside down" so that the drinking hose can act as just an on/off pouring spout? the way i've seen camelbacks work often involves sucking on the straw.

... but something a bit less conspicuous than a bug sprayer, perhaps.

Well, I think you can push on the camelback maybe by leaning up against a wall and get the same effect. Not sure on that though. If you want to discourage people from taking said liquor away, perhaps one of these (http://www.whizzinator.com/) is in order.

Though, I'm not sure how that would look to the common passerby.

JonM

07-07-2008, 05:15 PM

can camelbacks be worn, how do i mean to say this... "upside down" so that the drinking hose can act as just an on/off pouring spout? the way i've seen camelbacks work often involves sucking on the straw.

The hose tap on a CamelBack is on the bottom of the bladder. So, as long as the spout is below the liquid level on the bag, you just squeeze the bite valve and the liquid will flow.

-Jon

Voltage Spike

07-07-2008, 06:14 PM

If you want to discourage people from taking said liquor away, perhaps one of these (http://www.whizzinator.com/) is in order.

3 oz of body temperature alcohol? You are one sick bastard.

valanx

07-07-2008, 06:44 PM

With modification I'm sure someone could have 32 ounces and a "serious medical condition"

Or you could hide it in a colostomy bag, but that really makes delivery kind of odd.

russ

07-07-2008, 07:59 PM

It doesn't sound like many people are happy about this decision. I personally like the camelback idea. It gets hot in the desert and it'd be nice to have some "water' around to sip on.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTLH3Gz9FLc&NR=1

tprophet

07-07-2008, 10:19 PM

It's hard to run an outdoor dance party in Las Vegas. Remember, it gets up over 100 degrees there, and there is lots of blowing dust. It's very hard on the gear and on anyone dancing. Also, I'm not sure what we'd have for sound - I don't know what venue we have for Queercon yet (or whether we even have one--I assume we will, Defcon folks have always been awesome to us) so I haven't arranged any sound yet.

Remember you do need more sound for an outdoor gig than an indoor one. The minimum configuration that would be acceptable would be a pair of 18" subs and a pair of SRM450s as mains, plus a pair of monitors. This will carry, and there are neighbors (although I think folks are fairly accustomed to loud noises in Las Vegas). XOR brought up the idea of using public land. I recommend talking to some local Las Vegas DJs about that before making plans for a renegade on public land... for my part, I have talked to DJ Foggy and SuperK, both of whom are Las Vegas based. The local police have a very bad reputation for busting raves. They not only bust things up, they arrest people and confiscate all the gear (and since any endeavor is likely to include my sound system, I'm not very eager to sign up for that).

Anyone who misses the Ninja party is welcome to come to Queercon--we're always open invite and you don't have to be gay--although if it shakes out like last year, there will be a cash bar. We provide the DJs, sound and decorations for free but we can't afford to buy everyone drinks.

Overall, I'm really sad to hear about this. The Riviera has been a less than ideal venue for a variety of reasons. Who are they going to shake down next, CTF? For my part, I'm really glad that DT is looking for another hotel. I like The Palms, personally... they're cool enough to host the 2600 meeting after all! :)

you would probably just need one $35 a night generator to run enough sound for a party with the powered Mackie speakers I am thinking about. (if i am remembering how the sound was rigged last year...i dont remember what the subwoofer situation was in the skybox- were those Mackies', too?)

If I remember right, Londo or Converge knew some of the park's regulations on amplified sound.

As for the alcohol.... I foresee lots of plastic cups to get around that one.

Rant(Rave) On:

I'm shocked at all of you. Obviously never been to a rave :-). What does Las Vegas have a lot of, public land aka Desert. There isn't a crew out in Vegas that wouldn't co-host a rave some where out in the desert on public land. Rent a bus, you can't rent a bus for $2500.

They don't have drunk buses in Vegas? My brothers bachelor party is renting one here in Philly for the entire day/night until the wee hours of the morning to drive people from way out into the burbs to a Phillies game then to ummmmmm Day Dreams, an all night BYOB/Keg ummmm establishment. :-)

We had illegal parties in downtown SF and never got caught, in parks, on the beach, on the naval base, in shipping containers. I refuse to believe this isn't possible in Vegas.

SHAME ON YOU ALL!!!!! :-)

Time and effort people, that's all it takes.

Rant(Rave) Off:

xor

Ps Don't they have a big public lake out there close to the city.

icetre

07-08-2008, 12:30 AM

I have a friend that works at MGM/Mirage. He was surprised at the Riviera's antics.

He was surprised they were even enforcing that rule at a sub-event and even more so that the no food/booze clause is written on the check-in agreement. (I certainly think it's quite classy!)

It's not *all* hotels. I'm sure others would be willing to settle with a corkage fee similar to the fines that my party incurred and/or the Ninja's *cough* mafia payoff *cough* last year.

Not to be all, I told you so or nothing, but this is exactly what I was saying at DC14 when I got kicked square in the nuts. I wasn't worried about *my* party, but *all* of our parties! I bitched to EVERYONE trying to tell them the very dangerous precident that was being set. I was trying to do my part to help the convention to learn from the experience.

Some sympathized, but few actually seemed to do anything. I offered to stay and attend meetings with the hotel and defcon to explain what happened and/or smooth things out for next year... What did I get for my trouble and concern? Banned from hotel grounds for 'Unruly behavior' despite the fact that the hotel was 100% aware of what I intended to do.

This kinda says it all:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came...

Honestly I think the best news I could hear is that we're hotel shopping again.

;96414']Im good with whatever people decide to do. I have no problem with the BYOB thing, but the whole situation is disturbing. I want to say I never imagined a hotel in Vegas would be so anal about things, but then I think about how many things went unnoticed or at least noticed without confrontation at the AP.

Last year many people were harassed for simply loitering in the main hallway downstairs, that is rather ridiculous. These are paying guests of a hotel, convention or not, and the hotel is going to yell at them rudely to move out of the hallway. If they think Im going to loiter at their bar they are mistaken.

I encountered security being total asses without any respect for guests, multiple times when people were doing absolutely nothing wrong.