Are there people out here that should not be out here?

[Greyhatter]

For many years I’ve held the contention that there are just some people that should not be allowed on the Internet for one reason or the other. Just as on a “real highway” there are some that should not drive on the “Internet highway”. Dangers in both places require knowledge and behavioral training before “cutting loose” or risking an accident to oneself or to others. I, for one, like the idea of an Internet license for all, especially for children and the elderly. I have seen behaviors out here that freak me to no end. It was only last year I discovered my own 79 yo mother had expired AV and did not even have a firewall in place. I’m happy to say that I fired the Geek Squad for her and got her REAL professional support she so needed.

Am I alone in the belief that not everyone should be driving out here?

[streaker69]

Re: Are there people out here that should not be out here?

If it were up to me, only myself and 5000 of my closest friends would be allowed on the intertubes.

[theprez98]

Re: Are there people out here that should not be out here?

Despite the fact that I agree in principle that there are many people online who simply don't belong online, I have serious objections to any sort of licensing scheme. Who would control it? What restrictions would be put in place? What would qualify someone to be denied? How to protect the system from abuse? What about oversight?

A very slippery slope I hope we don't ever go down.

[Chris]

Re: Are there people out here that should not be out here?

Despite the fact that I agree in principle that there are many people online who simply don't belong online, I have serious objections to any sort of licensing scheme. Who would control it? What restrictions would be put in place? What would qualify someone to be denied? How to protect the system from abuse? What about oversight?

A very slippery slope I hope we don't ever go down.

I am 100% with theprez on this one...unless I get to be in charge of everything. Then I'll hand out licenses only to the worthy and the only reason I will check on people's porn browsing history is to find new links to free porn.

[Greyhatter]

Re: Are there people out here that should not be out here?

This is solely to generate discussion of restoring bandwidth to an Internet that is additionally overloaded with kids, little old ladies, and even middle age adults who’ve become bots.

Hypothesis:

Because they lack the basic knowledge and training to surf safely:

Children and the elderly account for 50% of the botnets on the Internet. Servers account for the rest.

Children and the elderly account for 50% of the malware (other than bots) on the Internet.

Fact:

We do not know if any of the above it correct because there has never been a study done.

Internet bandwidth is disappearing expoentially with the addition of so many Internet devices that the Internet is at risk of failure in 5 to 10 years according to some experts.

Botnets and other malware take up tremendous Internet bandwidth.

Question:

Where am I going with this?

According to some experts there is not enough time or money to reinforce Internet bandwidth before its collapse. Would it be possible to save this needed bandwidth by removing the Internet’s malware tenticles through training and licensing of children, elderly, and even middle age adults in basic computer security before it’s too late? A course or two if you will, at a high school, or college level, and a test before hopping on here?

[Lowie]

Re: Are there people out here that should not be out here?

According to some experts there is not enough time or money to reinforce Internet bandwidth before its collapse. Would it be possible to save this needed bandwidth by removing the Internet’s malware tenticles through training and licensing of children, elderly, and even middle age adults in basic computer security before it’s too late? A course or two if you will, at a high school, or college level, and a test before hopping on here?

While I do agree that there are a lot of people who most probably should not be set free on the internet, just as there are many many people who should never ever be set free on the highway, I'm not convinced that getting rid of these people is the answer.

To continue with your highway analogy, without all the people who shouldn't be driving, sure the roads might be a lot safer and more efficient for those of us that can drive, but would we all still be driving on dirt tracks and not modern sealed super highways?

Sure, getting rid of the untrained masses might free up a lot of bandwidth, but without having had them, would the bandwidth be there to lose?

Just my thoughts, feel free to tear apart.

[Greyhatter]

Re: Are there people out here that should not be out here?

Sure, getting rid of the untrained masses might free up a lot of bandwidth, but without having had them, would the bandwidth be there to lose?

Just my thoughts, feel free to tear apart.

Well I really had no intention of "getting rid" of users. I love my mother. I guess I'm opting to get the malware and especially bot count down through required learning. Perhaps the "highway" analogy could be changed to "prepare for good and evil when following the yellow brick road"?

[Lowie]

Re: Are there people out here that should not be out here?

Well I really had no intention of "getting rid" of users. I love my mother. I guess I'm opting to get the malware and especially bot count down through required learning. Perhaps the "highway" analogy could be changed to "prepare for good and evil when following the yellow brick road"?

I know, I may have been taking a bit of artistic licence with the "getting rid" of idea.

More training for people is required, but for it to happen someone has to be put in charge of it, and therein lies my problem with the idea.

And anyway, you have to pass tests to get a road licence, so does this mean there are no accidents and everyone with a licence can actually drive?

Hmmm, maybe a reverse thread could be started in a car forum? Damn my tangents.

[TheCotMan]

Re: Are there people out here that should not be out here?

Once a decision is made to create rules or laws to exclude people based on various criteria, there is risk for someone to some day classify you as someone that should be excluded.

Effectively, this is summarized by two wise men (Bob and Doug) in their "Great White North" CD/Record/Tape:
"My topic today is, don't kill bugs... Sooner or later, no matter how good you are, somebody will hate you and will think of you as a bug. And the next thing you know *pfff* you're gone."

Who knew Canadians could provide us with such wisdom. ;-)

Consider this thought as well:
If you choose to limit people's access to the internet by means other than money, then a governing body must oversee the enforcement of such rules. Humans make mistakes.

Denial of Internet access to any group of people with criteria other than money also risks loss of investment in Research and Development of new products; unsophisticated users are also potential consumers of technology. When more people buy technology, the cost of R&D is split among all consumers. Removal of potential consumers slows investment into R&D, and increases the cost of technology. Is this cost worth the benefit?

[streaker69]

Re: Are there people out here that should not be out here?

Once a decision is made to create rules or laws to exclude people based on various criteria, there is risk for someone to some day classify you as someone that should be excluded.

Effectively, this is summarized by two wise men (Bob and Doug) in their "Great White North" CD/Record/Tape:
"My topic today is, don't kill bugs... Sooner or later, no matter how good you are, somebody will hate you and will think of you as a bug. And the next thing you know *pfff* you're gone."

Who knew Canadians could provide us with such wisdom. ;-)

Consider this thought as well:
If you choose to limit people's access to the internet by means other than money, then a governing body must oversee the enforcement of such rules. Humans make mistakes.

Denial of Internet access to any group of people with criteria other than money also risks loss of investment in Research and Development of new products; unsophisticated users are also potential consumers of technology. When more people buy technology, the cost of R&D is split among all consumers. Removal of potential consumers slows investment into R&D, and increases the cost of technology. Is this cost worth the benefit?

Therein lies a big part of the problem. Cities all over the world are trying to setup internet for free to those that cannot afford it, making it seem as though everyone has some right to it.

IMO, the internet, much like driving is not a right, it is a privilege, and if you cannot afford it, it shouldn't just be given to you. If you're paying for it, you tend to be a little more responsible with things.

[TheCotMan]

Re: Are there people out here that should not be out here?

Therein lies a big part of the problem. Cities all over the world are trying to setup internet for free to those that cannot afford it, making it seem as though everyone has some right to it.

IMO, the internet, much like driving is not a right, it is a privilege, and if you cannot afford it, it shouldn't just be given to you. If you're paying for it, you tend to be a little more responsible with things.

Even if a person has "Free Internet Access" they still need hardware in order to use that "Free Internet." If they buy new hardware, then they buy technology, and invest in a shared R&D. If they buy used hardware, or inherit hardware, then the person they get the hardware from, may have used this trickle-down as an excuse to get new hardware, and at the least, it is a first-order recycling of hardware. Someone will likely support the machine, and perhaps learn something in the process. If repairs are paid-for, then another market sector gains from, "Free Internet."

If they are using old hardware, will they try to get Vista installed on it, or might they opt for Linux? If you are a Linux Zealot, couldn't this help indoctrinate a whole new group of people into a Linux cult? If they like their old hardware, might they buy a few upgrades to make their experience more enjoyable?

As for, "Free Internet," I seem to recall that there was a group that ran "LA Free net" (Look at the price for classroom accounts and student accounts) where people could pay a one-time flat-fee for Dialup Internet access? Sure, the IP you were given was a "non-routable" IP, and you internet access was NAT-ed, but you could still surf the web.

In the early years, colleges gave away, "free Internet Access," to their students, and some university libraries provided free Internet and workstation use to local lenders, or community borrowers. Later, Public Libraries also provided free Internet access to their patrons.

"Free," access to the Internet has been around for a *long* time, and availability of the Internet means an increase in the potential consumer base for online purchases, online banking, and many other online services.

Ask yourself this:
Do you want a job in technology? How do jobs in technology get created?

The better illustrate this point, here is a quote from another job, by someone that realized the problems with this statement, but stated it to make fun of those few that complained without understanding the ramification of their wish:

"This job would be awesome if it wasn't for the customers."

Let us assume that several serious technological problems are created as a result of letting "in-bred-jed" and his mother-sister-aunt on the Internet. What would that mean? Would that mean that a whole new market might be created to counter the new problems?

For every problem that is created, we have an opportunity to create a new market for business.

[Greyhatter]

Re: Are there people out here that should not be out here?

Gaze into my crystal ball....

http://www.nemertes.com/ii#_Toc181763611

[xor]

Re: Are there people out here that should not be out here?

Als die Nazis die Kommunisten holten,
habe ich geschwiegen;
ich war ja kein Kommunist.

Als sie die Sozialdemokraten einsperrten,
habe ich geschwiegen;
ich war ja kein Sozialdemokrat.

Als sie die Gewerkschafter holten,
habe ich nicht protestiert;
ich war ja kein Gewerkschafter.

Als sie die Juden holten,
habe ich geschwiegen;
ich war ja kein Jude.

Als sie mich holten,
gab es keinen mehr, der protestieren konnte.

[Greyhatter]

Re: Are there people out here that should not be out here?

Als die Nazis die Kommunisten holten,
habe ich geschwiegen;
ich war ja kein Kommunist.

Als sie die Sozialdemokraten einsperrten,
habe ich geschwiegen;
ich war ja kein Sozialdemokrat.

Als sie die Gewerkschafter holten,
habe ich nicht protestiert;
ich war ja kein Gewerkschafter.

Als sie die Juden holten,
habe ich geschwiegen;
ich war ja kein Jude.

Als sie mich holten,
gab es keinen mehr, der protestieren konnte.

Translation:

When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.

When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.

When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.

When they came for the Jews,
I remained silent;
I wasn't a Jew.

When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.

"Paranoia will destroy ya."<Ray Davies

BTW, driver's education is now a high school requirement. So your vote would be against required computer security courses before children access the Internet? I'd guess required computer security training for the elderly would be out of the question then.

Hypothesis:

The state of the Internet is a direct result of the failings of public education in the U.S. and abroad. This is largely because driver's education is mandatory while computer training is not. I guess you need to learn to drive a car to get to work, and once your there, you can turn on your bot spreading computer and have a nice day.

[Thorn]

Re: Are there people out here that should not be out here?

Translation:

When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.

When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.

When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.

When they came for the Jews,
I remained silent;
I wasn't a Jew.

When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.

"Paranoia will destroy ya."<Ray Davies

BTW, driver's education is now a high school requirement. So your vote would be against required computer security courses before children access the Internet? I'd guess required computer security training for the elderly would be out of the question then.

Hypothesis:

The state of the Internet is a direct result of the failings of public education in the U.S. and abroad. This is largely because driver's education is mandatory while computer training is not. I guess you need to learn to drive a car to get to work, and once your there, you can turn on your bot spreading computer and have a nice day.

Please define "elderly", and think carefully before answering.

Alternate hypothesis:
1) That the state of the Internet is the direct result of putting a highly technical military-scientific tool into the hands of a civilian population who were never intended to be the users.

2) "Licensing" of any most things is an excuse by governments to impose taxes and control people, and rarely serves any other purpose.