my response to :I-hacked article on hiding lockpicks from TSA...

[beakmyn]

Re: my response to :I-hacked article on hiding lockpicks from TSA...

Maybe with 7" or larger pliers you're able to actually disassemble the entire plane, but with anything smaller all you can do is loosen up some nuts on the seat in front of you.

Actually, I fixed the tray. Seriously.

[streaker69]

Re: my response to :I-hacked article on hiding lockpicks from TSA...

In my traveling I found that TSA policies are at the discretion of the TSA employee on duty. My backpack has a myriad of cables, connectors, electronics, keys, tools, and a couple altoid tins. So, far they have never done a full bag search but many times the bag has been run through the scanner multiple times (flip it over, run it again) to see what's in there. I've never been questioned about the screwdrivers or lockpicks or batteries or anything else. They seem to only focus on the 5.5" pair of pliers that is in the front pocket. The scenario now goes like this:

TSA: Is this your bag?
ME: Yes it is. There is a 5.5" pair of pliers in the front pocket of the bag on the right hand side.
TSA: Oh, you've been through this before
ME: Yes, everytime I leave home you check them. Why?
TSA: They look like something else.
ME: What do you mean, something else?
TSA: I can't tell you that.

At that point TSA may or may not swab the pliers, swab the bag, or find a ruler and measure the pliers. If they do measure them it can then get interesting.

I've had TSA hold me until they could find someone who knew what size of pliers were allowed or if plieres were allowed. To which I "helpfully" inform them. The TSA website lists pliers of less then 7" in length as permitted items for both carry on and checked luggage. Then I ask them if they want to check the screwdrivers, which they always decline.

Detroit (domestic and international), Chicago, Cincinnati, Billings they could care less what's in my bag, just get the people through the line.

Maybe with 7" or larger pliers you're able to actually disassemble the entire plane, but with anything smaller all you can do is loosen up some nuts on the seat in front of you.

[beakmyn]

Re: my response to :I-hacked article on hiding lockpicks from TSA...

In my traveling I found that TSA policies are at the discretion of the TSA employee on duty. My backpack has a myriad of cables, connectors, electronics, keys, tools, and a couple altoid tins. So, far they have never done a full bag search but many times the bag has been run through the scanner multiple times (flip it over, run it again) to see what's in there. I've never been questioned about the screwdrivers or lockpicks or batteries or anything else. They seem to only focus on the 5.5" pair of pliers that is in the front pocket. The scenario now goes like this:

TSA: Is this your bag?
ME: Yes it is. There is a 5.5" pair of pliers in the front pocket of the bag on the right hand side.
TSA: Oh, you've been through this before
ME: Yes, everytime I leave home you check them. Why?
TSA: They look like something else.
ME: What do you mean, something else?
TSA: I can't tell you that.

At that point TSA may or may not swab the pliers, swab the bag, or find a ruler and measure the pliers. If they do measure them it can then get interesting.

I've had TSA hold me until they could find someone who knew what size of pliers were allowed or if plieres were allowed. To which I "helpfully" inform them. The TSA website lists pliers of less then 7" in length as permitted items for both carry on and checked luggage. Then I ask them if they want to check the screwdrivers, which they always decline.

Detroit (domestic and international), Chicago, Cincinnati, Billings they could care less what's in my bag, just get the people through the line.

[DJ Jackalope]

Re: my response to :I-hacked article on hiding lockpicks from TSA...

...if the place was on fire I would be toast.

Heh, don't forget most apartments have windows...regardless of what story they are on.

[DJ Jackalope]

Re: my response to :I-hacked article on hiding lockpicks from TSA...

oh yay! Im a person now. Thats a lot better than what Im used to getting called by random defcon-ers. ; )

And to answer your second statement...I really didnt have security standards in mind when I got on the bus.

These two statements go hand in hand. Being a person means you have rights. Know your rights.

[faye]

Re: my response to :I-hacked article on hiding lockpicks from TSA...

Which is funny, because for people who have tested the phrase, many find the vinegar works better for catching flies. (A quick googling reveals this, among other things)

very cute indeed.


btw...I was actually locked IN an apartment the other day with no other way out...damn double sided door locks. I have got to learn to pick new locks faster...if the place was on fire I would be toast.

[YenTheFirst]

Re: my response to :I-hacked article on hiding lockpicks from TSA...

Still when I do rebel, I find that honey works better than vinegar. ; )

Which is funny, because for people who have tested the phrase, many find the vinegar works better for catching flies. (A quick googling reveals this, among other things)

[faye]

Re: my response to :I-hacked article on hiding lockpicks from TSA...

blasphemhy! blasphemy and high heresy, i say!

heh... many folk here take issue with that line of thinking. i do count myself among them, i must say. not criticizing you... just expressing a clarification of what i feel are healthy or unhealthy outlooks for society. i'm much happier when i believe my fellow citizens are being critical and skeptical of authority.

Oh dont get me wrong. Im critical of lots of things, Im just not going to harass anyone with a badge and gun when I would go unnoticed otherwise. It goes back to the whole, dont make trouble and you wont get none thing....Still when I do rebel, I find that honey works better than vinegar. ; )

[Deviant Ollam]

Re: my response to :I-hacked article on hiding lockpicks from TSA...

what does it matter to me if they want to search the bus? The regs are there for a reason, and its probably to keep us safe

blasphemhy! blasphemy and high heresy, i say!

heh... many folk here take issue with that line of thinking. i do count myself among them, i must say. not criticizing you... just expressing a clarification of what i feel are healthy or unhealthy outlooks for society. i'm much happier when i believe my fellow citizens are being critical and skeptical of authority. note that i'm not trying to make an anarcho-boy "smash the state" type of argument... just encouraging people to demand explanations of rules when they're offered.

if someone can't explain to you why a given rule/policy/law is important and valid in less than five minutes, they don't know what they're talking about and are just interfering with your life. (this rule of thumb breaks down with huge global issues... the complexities of a multinational ballistic treaty or import/export tarrifs is beyond the scope of a basic elevator pitch, heh)

[faye]

Re: my response to :I-hacked article on hiding lockpicks from TSA...

Well written Novel

Umm...wow. was there a question for me in there somewhere, cause if there was I might have missed it...lol on the serious side thanks for the mountain of info. as a newbie its greatly appreciated.

but you do make me think that maybe they were just looking for technical difficulties before they happened...with all the recent bus wrecks and all...that or unwanted attachments since there were suspicious middle easterns on the bus, and no Im not being racist, I actually caught two of them doing something really suspicious. Im thinking it was just intravenous drugs, but I couldnt very well see, so they could have been tinkering with anything in that bathroom for the long period of time that they were in there...

1. I don't think Google has a search that can search "every bus company this Faye person has been on." Hence. why I was asking a specific company. If that was mentioned in this thread, earlier, I apologize for not apparently reading it well enough.

2. I was just wondering if Faye knew what she was getting into when she got on that bus.

oh yay! Im a person now. Thats a lot better than what Im used to getting called by random defcon-ers. ; )

And to answer your second statement...I really didnt have security standards in mind when I got on the bus. I know Im not dangerous or plan on doing something bad, so what does it matter to me if they want to search the bus? The regs are there for a reason, and its probably to keep us safe...

I saw this because on the trip I saw: a few drug dealer types, middle easterns tinkering with something in a bathroom, and a guy carrying a huge knife in is backpack right just after the news of someone getting killed on a bus, oh and I looked up the guys sitting next to me, and he had convictions for bodily injury/assault -

Considering that I saw all this, my concluesion is: the more security, the better. Air standards are probably more meddlesome anyway...

what bus company do you use? First off, so i never use it, and secondly...was curious if their policies for search are public on a website, etc.

The only one I know of....

and if you have problems with them searching for drugs or other dangerous materials I would avoid flying too...I hear their anti-hair care product these days...lmao

All transportation providers are required by Federal regulations to post their policies regarding search of travelers. This policy has been in place for several years. Now. whether it is posted big enough in ports of exit/entry or posted obviously enough on their websites? I have not a clue. I trust others with more wisdom to school us... Or, Mr. Google is your friend.

For the record, I didnt see it posted anywhere during my travels, however I wasnt exactly looking for it either. I would assume you're correct on that the regulations are posted on their website or, could also be found on some .gov site somewhere....Like I said, Im harmless, so I wasnt really concerned with it.

[DJ Jackalope]

Re: my response to :I-hacked article on hiding lockpicks from TSA...

Or, Mr. Google is your friend.

1. I don't think Google has a search that can search "every bus company this Faye person has been on." Hence. why I was asking a specific company. If that was mentioned in this thread, earlier, I apologize for not apparently reading it well enough.

2. I was just wondering if Faye knew what she was getting into when she got on that bus.

[valkyrie]

Re: my response to :I-hacked article on hiding lockpicks from TSA...

All transportation providers are required by Federal regulations to post their policies regarding search of travelers. This policy has been in place for several years. Now. whether it is posted big enough in ports of exit/entry or posted obviously enough on their websites? I have not a clue. I trust others with more wisdom to school us... Or, Mr. Google is your friend.

Regards,
Valkyrie

Hi there...
This is so true in all sorts of contexts and a good rule to live by.

My question is: what bus company do you use? First off, so i never use it, and secondly...was curious if their policies for search are public on a website, etc.

[DJ Jackalope]

Re: my response to :I-hacked article on hiding lockpicks from TSA...

But Deviant Ollam's post and others seem to make me think that you'll only have trouble if you start it.

Hi there...
This is so true in all sorts of contexts and a good rule to live by.

My question is: what bus company do you use? First off, so i never use it, and secondly...was curious if their policies for search are public on a website, etc.

[Deviant Ollam]

Re: my response to :I-hacked article on hiding lockpicks from TSA...

heh... here comes a fucking novel. go to the bathroom now, before you start reading.

Do you know what states to watch out for?

well... nearly all states have an "intent" clause written into their Burglary Tools statute, making it the burden of the prosecutor's office to demonstrate that you not only had these items, but intended to use them for criminal purposes. Delaware, however, has no such clause.

A number of other states do have intent written into their laws, but then go on to state that the mere act of possession of lockpicks by the average citizen is prima facie evidence that you had ill intent. (that doesn't guarantee a conviction, mind you... but puts the burden on you to prove some other legitimate purpose of ownership and possession.) States such as this include Kansas, Mississippi, Nevada, and Virginia.

The District of Columbia, while not technically a state, does have it's own laws concerning lockpicks and they tend to be very strict. D.C. cops pretty much frown upon anyone doing just about anything.

One last note that i will make concerns North Carolina, which is (by my limited and somewhat outdated knowledge) the only place whose laws explicitly require any parties who perform any sort of "locksmithing" be licensed by the state. Such broad language could be extended, at least in theory, to academic or hobbiest locksmithing. Other states mandate the licensing and/or bonding of locksmith businesses but North Carolina's language, as i say, is just atypically broad.

By the way... this is all just information i've culled from various sources including the lockpicking101.com forums. I make no solid claims on the authenticity or current applicability of these laws and I am not dispensing legal advice. I encourage people to consult their own sources, and to double-check on the LP101 forums via that link since there may be much newer info there now. I should do that, as well, actually.

all I know is that I carry my picks in a place where they're not likely to be found, and hopefully they never will.

Yes, the combined two-pronged tactic of both "try to follow the law" and "try to be as covert as possible, within reason" is the best method. While we all know that obscurity is not a method for obtaining security, it is often a fine compliment to other more proper means of covering one's ass. Just because you're 100% in the right legally doesn't mean that someone won't hassle you for no good reason. It's plenty sensible to take steps (again, within reason) to help prevent someone finding picks or other questionable items.

I often recommend the "emory board" trick and tell people to carry their picks in an alternating head/tail stack, secured with a rubber band, placing the whole affair in a sundry bag or among toiletries somehow. You're not breaking the law there... just hoping to avoid unnecessary questions from untrained bureaucrats.

Going to vegas I wasnt aware of any searches, but on the way back they did two. I dont really know who was searching our bags ... they were waiting for us when we got there. ...

see... this is the part of responding to a story when i worry that i'm going to sound like an asshole or something. so bear with me, and know that i'm not trying to give you a hard time.

my gut reaction would be to now ask the question "how can anyone search your bags without you knowing who they are?" My logic pertains to the fact that (at least in my, admittedly black and white view of the world) nobody gets to touch someone else's shit without showing ID and nobody gets into your bags without a warrant (unless you're flying somewhere and it's the TSA or crossing a border and it's the Customs Service)

the cops can stop all the vehicles on the road that they like. they can even start pulling out luggage from beneath the bus while keeping passengers on there (i'd kick up holy hell if they tried to, but i'm an assface like that) but what they can't do is start cracking open locked, hard-sided cases. what? you don't travel with a hard-sided case? hehe... then please, by all means come to my talk the next time i'm presenting "packing and the friendly skies" and you can learn how to give yourself bulletproof protection for little to no money.

let the fuckers drag out bags and huff and puff by the side of the road. without a warrant, they're not getting in my stuff. (again, a lot of this goes back to point #1 way up above... taking steps to not actively piss people off or look suspicious is likely a healthy addition to any batter that you're baking. those spoonfuls of sugar are usually what gets me through most situations as long as i remember them)

in dallas... We were stopped on the highway under an overpass by locals and idk maybe a state trooper, I was so tired I cant remember. It was so weird to be stopped on the highway to be searched while traffic zoomed by.

again... was this bags or just the passenger compartment? it is not uncommon for local PD or even staties to pull over a long-haul passenger bus when a fugitive situation is happening. they will board the bus armed with a description of the suspect(s) or sometimes even faxed details and try to spot specific persons of interest. you may have witnessed said individual's bags being searched pursuant to an arrest/custodial detaining situation.

or were they searching everyone's bag?

I had to go into a federal building yesterday and I wasn't aware that you cant bring pocket knives in

yeap, they'll bang you on that one. typically, they will not confiscate the knife or give you legal problems but will more often than not just deny you entry. (assuming the knife was legal on the street from which you just walked in*) i get nailed all the time for this when i hit up national monuments.

again, i've learned that the best option is to be polite, not look like a ruffian (hard for me to do often, but it's gotten easier since i switched the ratty plaid shirts for my Hawaiian theme a while back), and deal with the staff in a courteous manner. at facilities with metal detectors where there is no earthly reason for super high-end security (again, national monuments come to mind) i'll politely ask whomever appears to be in charge for a moment of his or her time and explain (quietly and off to one side) that i'm either carrying a knife or my pistol. i ask them if there are lock-up boxes or accommodations for such situations. many, many times i've been told that as long as i don't do anything foolish (i.e. brandish etc) that i'll be fine and to have a pleasant day.

i would not try this at a courthouse, however. and i'm even more cautious when visiting people in prisons... going so far as to even make sure i don't have any of my handcuff keys on me.

The guy runs my purse through the machine and he's said "hey! you have a pocket knife in there!" and I'm like, "No, I have two in there."

awesome quote.


* NOTE - for those who typically carry a utility/defense blade around with them and are interested in staying legal, i recommend Emerson's "Mini" Close Quarter Battle model. Designed to explicitly have a blade under 3" (but not under by much... it's 2.9" of edge) this folder is likely to be legal almost anywhere you'd need to go (both in the states and in places around the world) but it is constructed well enough to be both a utility tool or a defensive weapon should the need arise.

I don't hold stock in this company, i should note, i just really dig their hardware. Some other companies will also produce items that are specifically carry-legal. Google around and see what you come up with.

I will also note that "clip" knives can also help you with "concealed" vs. "open" carry status. Since part of the knife is clearly visible protruding from one's pocket if a clip is used (albeit, not much) this can often keep you cool with prohibitions against having a concealed weapon. Again, i'm not your lawyer so don't take this as outright legal advice, but rather offerings of some good foundation facts worthy of inspiring you to research matters more thoroughly on your own.

[faye]

Re: my response to :I-hacked article on hiding lockpicks from TSA...

the law seems to change a fair amount, sadly. back when i first put my presentation together there were only a few specific states that i called "states of concern" for relatively minor reasons. now it seems like people report to me more and more about places where lockpicks are allegedly not cool. i'll have to do some serious research to figure out what's what. ah well, i'm not going to stop carrying mine.

Do you know what states to watch out for? all I know is that I carry my picks in a place where they're not likely to be found, and hopefully they never will.

do they routinely search buses in long, interstate journeys? i've never ridden on one like that so i have no experience there. that sounds creepy. what manner of search is performed and by what body of individuals, if i may ask? are we talking TSA-style bag scanners or local P.D. looking for "unsavory" people to hassle, etc?

Going to vegas I wasnt aware of any searches, but on the way back they did two. I dont really know who was searching our bags in whatever state it was we were in the first time we got searched, but they were waiting for us when we got there. The second time it was in dallas on our way to houston. We were stopped on the highway under an overpass by locals and idk maybe a state trooper, I was so tired I cant remember. It was so weird to be stopped on the highway to be searched while traffic zoomed by... They might have stopped that bus like that because we had three middle eastern people on the bus and I caught two of them doing something really suspicious at the bus station after we got to houston, so maybe they were on the alert for good reason.

good for you! keep it up and you may find yourself a new hobby that you get really into. maybe we'll see you at a TOOOL meeting sometime.

I'd love to go, just need to know when and where....

heh, nah... you don't have to worry so much about the picks in that scenario. the airport staff is always coming up with newer and more comical ways of molesting you so i'm sure that by the time you opt to fly, they'll have instituted some sort of "no hair care product" rule (or something equally asinine) and get in your face for not just using a scrunchy or hair clip.

Nah, I think underwire bras will be under fire next... cause you never know what a girl might be packing ; P

Oh that reminds me, I had to go into a federal building yesterday and I wasnt aware that you cant bring pocket knives in...The guy runs my purse through the machine and he's said "hey! you have a pocket knife in there!" and I'm like, "No, I have two in there." I explained that I use them to tear the tags off new clothes and dig stuff out from under my nails and I dont think of them as weapons and thats why I wasnt even thinking about it when they ran my purse... Now that was funny