Forum Creation: Newbie Forum. [Was: Hi Forum]

[HighWiz]

Re: hi forum

At what point does the system not get blamed?

It's not the "system" that's getting blamed. It's the community of people that are involved in something that fail to do their in part helping out the new people. As I said though, if that's the stance everyone wishes to take... That "it's not our problem" if they don't have a positive avenue or a place that provides it. Then I'm fine with that... And I'll leave it there.

[TheCotMan]

Re: hi forum

I suppose if that's the stance everyone is going to take on the issue then fine. However, if an avenue isn't provided for those uninitiated persons, we have no-one to blame but ourselves when they go and fuck shit up...

Nope. I can still blame the person that broke the stuff. You see, I have problems blaming the victim, or blaming myself for what other people choose to do.

It is easy to blame a system for not being clear enough in conveying warning messages.

Ladders have warning messages:
THIS IS NOT A STEP
Only place on hard, even surface
Do not insert into penis -- wait, that was a screwdriver set.

At what point does the system not get blamed?

[HighWiz]

Re: hi forum

Oh crap! I forgot Defcon was the world's largest underground uninitiated conference. ]:>

I suppose if that's the stance everyone is going to take on the issue then fine. However, if an avenue isn't provided for those uninitiated persons, we have no-one to blame but ourselves when they go and fuck shit up...

[streaker69]

Re: hi forum

When I signed up, I read all the rules, I just figured that was the wise thing to do. I found them easy to find and well written, err, at least they weren't written in Engrish.

[TheCotMan]

Re: hi forum

I'm not too sure we're talking about hackers here, more like the uninitiated.

Oh crap! I forgot Defcon was the world's largest underground uninitiated conference. ]:>

Sadly, most people have been trained by software vendors to click through any EULA or TOS

Alternatives to find a way to deliver intention to enforce rules are welcome. New ideas and old ideas are welcome. Most of the good ideas for the forums have come from members.

There are a lot of rules to wade through for a new user. I'm not saying that's bad, I'm just saying that to expect the majority of "hackers to be" to read the rules much be a bit much to ask.

This was an issue before, and is why the rules were broken into sections with their own thread and the top post in that thread a summary of rules... a sort of "cliff notes for the lazy."

The updated rules: (created 2 years ago: 11-12-2005, 02:54 AM )

Question about DefCon? Check the official FAQ first.

The Rules - 2/1/06
Primary Rules
0.) Introduction
1.) Social Behavior
2.) Repetitive Topics
3.) Graphics and Signatures
4.) Illegal Content/Misuse
5.) Spamming, Power posting, and Advertising
6.) Multiple Accounts/Shared Accounts

Secondary Rules: Behavior
1.) The ‘I’m new post’
2.) Lurking
3.) Doing Things for Yourself
4.) The ‘teach me to hack’ or ‘could you hack this for me’ Posts
5.) Abbreviated English, ‘SMS’-speak, or ‘leet-speak
6.) Don't be a jerk
7.) Old Threads
8.) Posts About Local Hacker Meetings
9.) Off-Topic Posting

Moreover, how many people here follow all the rules that are placed on them or did when they were younger? Never voided that warranty? Never broke that seal to 'upgrade' that product?

Ah, but that is part of a system. Understanding what rules exist and the consequences of not following those rules means a wise person can make an informed decision.

"Warranty void if seal is broken" and knowing the cost, I chose to break the seal anyway.
Break the 5-4-3 rule in networking? Sure, if you know the reasons for the rule and know where you can "get away with it" and not suffer the expected consequences.
Break a TSR app on your own DOS box, even though you know a mistake could cause the system to freeze.

Reading RFC is an even better example of this, as you know what rules MUST be followed, what rules SHOULD be followed, what rules CAN be followed, what rules SHOULD NOT be broken and what rules MUST NOT be broken. These rules have historically provided insight into attack vectors against common services, protocols, and more.

Learning about rules in any system as well as consequences allows you to better navigate that system.

As I said, having the rules are very necessary - but perhaps there can be a happy medium with the new users.

NO! IMPOSSIBLE!

Seriously though, do you think we really need a, "Hi I'm new," section? If so, what rules would be enforced there? Does this create too much complexity for moderation in remembering the different rules in different areas?

Well, not really. /dev/random is so much more than just a "Hello I'm new" area. If I was new to the forums, /dev/random would probably be the last place I would post as its almost a certainty that some dick like me would swoop in and flame myself into oblivion.

But it is the ONLY place you can post 24 hours after you register. Only 7 days after registration can you post elsewhere. When the new user encounters the waiting period, all forums are locked from posting, and 25 hours later, they can post threads and replies to posts in /dev/random. Because the rules there are minimized, it is more difficult for someone to break a rule there unless they are trying *really hard*.

It's a shame that you're retracting the idea. With the possibility of /dev/random going non-experimental, it would be a good op. to make "Hello World" the new experiment.

I gave DT the smiling devil emoticon with the comment that he can add such a forum, since he is now an admin. These are his forums, not mine, so if he wants a new forum, he can easily create one. The rules are owned by "rules" so any mode/admin can edit them without editing another mod/admins post.

Yea, you may have gotten older, but I've gotten nicer... I would rather have just gotten older.

What? Nicer? When did that happen? ]:> (I'm still looking for a place to hide.)

[artoir]

Re: hi forum

When I joined recently I'll admit the first thing I looked for was a "Hi, I'm New!" Forum and didn't come across dev/random. But I managed ok? I managed to sneakily introduce myself whilst looking for any other Irish members here without sounding too "Wow all my friends told me about this and I simply had to jump on the bandwagon to bump up my rep ;)"

I hope :S

[HighWiz]

Re: hi forum

What hackers do you know who are afraid of reading specifications (rules), or learning something new?

I'm not too sure we're talking about hackers here, more like the uninitiated.

Right now, we have the following:
1) When a person signs up fr the forms, there is a TOS that they click a check-box for saying, "I agree to the above" and that includes a link to the rules

Sadly, most people have been trained by software vendors to click through any EULA or TOS

2) When the finish this step, they are sent an email to activate their forum account. This email includes a statement about the rules, and a link to the rules, and mentions they are strictly enforced. It also provides a link they must click to activate their account by validating their email address. This also mentioned the waiting period.
3) Once they validate their email address, they are sent a welcome message that again mentions the rules and waiting period.

There are a lot of rules to wade through for a new user. I'm not saying that's bad, I'm just saying that to expect the majority of "hackers to be" to read the rules much be a bit much to ask. Moreover, how many people here follow all the rules that are placed on them or did when they were younger? Never voided that warranty? Never broke that seal to 'upgrade' that product?

As I said, having the rules are very necessary - but perhaps there can be a happy medium with the new users.

As for a "Hello I'm new" forum... we have that. It is called /dev/random. The list of rules there is much smaller, and simpler, and flaming is allowed so users can provide social feedback to let people know they might want to adjust their behavior.

Well, not really. /dev/random is so much more than just a "Hello I'm new" area. If I was new to the forums, /dev/random would probably be the last place I would post as its almost a certainty that some dick like me would swoop in and flame myself into oblivion.

I don't know how much clearer we can be with a comment on the rules, but am totally open for new ideas on what can be done.


What else can be done ti encourage people to read the rules an know about this and /dev/random?

As for adding it to the FAQ, we should probably decide that /dev/random is no longer experimental, but part of our infrastructure.

I retract my idea of creating a noobie hello forum area because as you pointed out it effectively already exists!

It's a shame that you're retracting the idea. With the possibility of /dev/random going non-experimental, it would be a good op. to make "Hello World" the new experiment.

Hi, I'm old.

Yea, you may have gotten older, but I've gotten nicer... I would rather have just gotten older.

[shrdlu]

Re: hi forum

Hi, I'm old.

You are not old. I am old. I also have even less patience than you for goofy crap, and I'm quite sure that the sign up procedures suggest reading the FAQ. Perhaps the little wanker has already learned something from this experience.

DT, you're a great guy, and a nice person, but on this one, I don't think Thorn overreacted. Let's not set the bar too low.

Curmudgeonly yours, Shrdlu

[erehwon]

Re: hi forum

READ the Rules. You've already agreed to them

https://forum.defcon.org/showthread.php?t=6777

In particular, these two apply:
https://forum.defcon.org/showpost.ph...24&postcount=7
https://forum.defcon.org/showpost.ph...27&postcount=9

You have violated both these rules, in that that you posted a "Hi, I'm New" post, you posted without contributing any value to the thread.

Oh well, just like in 'Animal House' Every Halloween, the trees are filled with underwear. Every spring, the toilets explode.

Comes the new post [your choice of holidays] users, I got a computer, I've got the internet, "I'm a Hacker!" I gotta sign up for all of the eleet security and hacker mailing lists...

I'm witnessing the rush at my end, and dreading the, how do I leave this f*%$ing mailing list? mails that come after the novelty wears off.

[TheCotMan]

Re: hi forum

Hi, I'm old.

Shush you!

Crap. You are Chris. I need to go find a place to hide. Quick! Thorn or DT. Where do I hide?

[TheCotMan]

Re: hi forum

Right now, we have the following:
1) When a person signs up fr the forms, there is a TOS that they click a check-box for saying, "I agree to the above" and that includes a link to the rules
2) When the finish this step, they are sent an email to activate their forum account. This email includes a statement about the rules, and a link to the rules, and mentions they are strictly enforced. It also provides a link they must click to activate their account by validating their email address. This also mentioned the waiting period.
3) Once they validate their email address, they are sent a welcome message that again mentions the rules and waiting period.

I don't know how much clearer we can be with a comment on the rules, but am totally open for new ideas on what can be done.

For a short time, lost with the last upgrade, we had a comment about rules being enforced at the top of the main page with a search form too. I could re-apply that customization again.... I'll look to add that back too.

What else can be done ti encourage people to read the rules an know about this and /dev/random?

As for adding it to the FAQ, we should probably decide that /dev/random is no longer experimental, but part of our infrastructure.

As an Admin, you can log into the AdminCP and update the FAQ too. ]:>

Cot, don't misunderstand, I agree it was the wrong post for the wrong place. We might just make it more clear during the sign up process or in the FAQ that there _is_ a place for "Hello World" posts, and when someone messes up we move 'em there.

I retract my idea of creating a noobie hello forum area because as you pointed out it effectively already exists!

[Chris]

Re: hi forum

Hi, I'm old.

[Dark Tangent]

Re: hi forum

Cot, don't misunderstand, I agree it was the wrong post for the wrong place. We might just make it more clear during the sign up process or in the FAQ that there _is_ a place for "Hello World" posts, and when someone messes up we move 'em there.

I retract my idea of creating a noobie hello forum area because as you pointed out it effectively already exists!

You are an admin, so you can always add a new forum. If we want to be nice to newbies, you can also eliminate the waiting period, so they can introduce themselves right away. ]:>

If either of these are changed, you'll want to change the rules.

Me? I think it the response is appropriate...
What hackers do you know who are afraid of reading specifications (rules), or learning something new?

As for a "Hello I'm new" forum... we have that. It is called /dev/random. The list of rules there is much smaller, and simpler, and flaming is allowed so users can provide social feedback to let people know they might want to adjust their behavior.

Rules for /dev/random:

[TheCotMan]

Re: hi forum

Way to crush his spirit!

I think this reaction makes me want to create a newbie 'Hello' room so noobies can introduce themselves in a neutral environment.

You are an admin, so you can always add a new forum. If we want to be nice to newbies, you can also eliminate the waiting period, so they can introduce themselves right away. ]:>

If either of these are changed, you'll want to change the rules.

Me? I think it the response is appropriate...
What hackers do you know who are afraid of reading specifications (rules), or learning something new?

As for a "Hello I'm new" forum... we have that. It is called /dev/random. The list of rules there is much smaller, and simpler, and flaming is allowed so users can provide social feedback to let people know they might want to adjust their behavior.

Rules for /dev/random:

This is an experimental forum that may be removed, or closed at some future time with little or no warning.

The purpose of this forum is to test the usefulness and impact of a more socially friendly forum with rules more relaxed than the rest of the Defcon forums.

Information about this forum:
1) Experimental-- subject to change
2) Temporary-- it may go away
3) Rules are less restrictive, but may change as problems are encountered.

Rules: (may change)
1) No Spam.
2) No law breaking-- this includes discussion of intent to break the law
3) No Politics or Religion.
4) Violations of these may be /dev/null-ed or placed in Fucktard Hall. (We reserve the right to publish IP Addresses of offending posters, for posts placed in /dev/null or fucktard hall.)

Presently tolerated/permitted only in this experimental forum
1) Tech support from your peers. "Peers," meaning, people that opted to join the group that includes this forum.
2) Flaming: Sure. Why not. However, there are often reprecussions when flaming starts-- namely, flamers often get flamed back.
3) Bad Grammar? SMS? Leet-speak? For now, we won't moderate this, but you can expect to get flamed if you use these.
4) "I'm New" sure, but you may get flamed, then again, maybe you won't.
5) "Teach me to hack"or "Hack this for me": so long as it does not violate a rule, you may get flamed, but you can try.
6) Replies to old threads? Sure.
7) Off-topic posting? Yep.

We are not certain how this will work out. Feedback is welcome. A thread will be started for comments.

[Dark Tangent]

Way to crush his spirit!

I think this reaction makes me want to create a newbie 'Hello' room so noobies can introduce themselves in a neutral environment.

READ the Rules. You've already agreed to them

https://forum.defcon.org/showthread.php?t=6777

In particular, these two apply:
https://forum.defcon.org/showpost.ph...24&postcount=7
https://forum.defcon.org/showpost.ph...27&postcount=9

You have violated both these rules, in that that you posted a "Hi, I'm New" post, you posted without contributing any value to the thread.