Forum Creation: Newbie Forum. [Was: Hi Forum]

[TheCotMan]

Re: Forum Creation: Newbie Forum. [Was: Hi Forum]

As I mentioned in a reply to HighWiz here the mods were discussing newbie forum options.

Items up for consideration:
"Hi! I'm New" as fake forum that links to each user's blog.
"Hi! I'm New" as a sticky in a Newbie Space (whatever it is.)

Add a Newbie Forum with the same rules as /dev/random
Convert /dev/random into a Newbie Forum.

The "Hi! I'm New" forum was not supported by even a significant minority of moderators, and without moderator support to maintain it, it would fail. No "Hi! I'm New!" forum.

The "Hi! I'm New" fake forum which is really a link to user's blogs for them to introduce themselves in their own blog had minority support, but nobody against it. Additionally, this doesn't require moderator support, so I'll be creating such a fake forum as an experiment to see how it works. Introduction posts would then be hidden from general public view, but available to anyone interested enough in a person to check out their blog.

The addition of a Newbie Forum just like /dev/random had no support and the opposite of support. An emphatic, "no," is the response to this.

The renaming of /dev/random to a Newbie Forum had no support and the opposite of support. An emphatic, "no," is the response to this.

There is no Newbie Forum. However, /dev/random remains an experimental forum. Of course it is not focused on Newbies, but if they happen to use it, then they happen to use it.

The alternative suggested in this post may be pursued by HighWiz or others to support Newbies by PM. If he or you want to organize a system of support for Newbies using PM, then I suggest a thread for volunteers to post their intent, and how they are willing to help Newbies by PM. It could be set as a sticky in /dev/random, and then closed most of the time with an alternate volunteer thread open. This will allow new people to volunteer, but not allow replies to the volunteer thread. I can periodically merge the volunteer thread so as to keep it limited to *just* volunteers, and nothing else.

If there is bleed-over from PM to the post space, and more work will be created for the mods, then this experiment may be canceled. (The mods don't want a Newbie forum, and don't want /dev/random to become a newbie forum, so if this look like Newbie Support in /dev/random is trend, then this experiment will have failed.) Newbie Support in PM? Cool! In /dev/random? Risk for ending the experiment.

I support whatever the mods support.

[Edit: Added]
The "Hi! I'm New" fake forum has been added as an experiment.
All non-logged in users are taken to the list of blogs.
For logged-in users, we have a choice:
1) Take them immediately to a "Post a new blog" form.
2) Take them to their own Blog so they can click on "post a new blog" from within it.

Either of those can be enabled quickly by commenting out one line, and uncommenting another; I just need a decision on which would be preferred.

[shrdlu]

Re: Forum Creation: Newbie Forum. [Was: Hi Forum]

My favorite right now is to just make a sticky under the dev/random social forum for newbies to say hello. If it doesn't get used, oh well. If people post in the wrong spot we move their posts over to that thread.

You already have that opportunity. Personally, I am not a fan of the special snowflake protectionism, but I'll keep it to myself (mostly).

[The Dark Tangent]

Re: Forum Creation: Newbie Forum. [Was: Hi Forum]

My favorite right now is to just make a sticky under the dev/random social forum for newbies to say hello. If it doesn't get used, oh well. If people post in the wrong spot we move their posts over to that thread.

[TheCotMan]

Re: Forum Creation: Newbie Forum. [Was: Hi Forum]

Other ideas proposed before with a newbie space, but with costs considered prohibitive...

A person would be in a newbie forum until they made at least a certain number of posts.
(This is a bad idea on many levels, as it discourages lurking, and encourages people to quickly post as many posts as are required to unlock the rest of the forums.)

A person would have to be "voted" as mature enough to get access to the rest of the forums.
(This is a bad idea, as it could easily create, "gangs," of users who could fast-track vote forward other members, and negatively vote against anyone they don't like. This is also bad.)

A person would be quized on the rules and need to pass before they could unlock new spaces.
(What is this? Grade school? It was an idea, but easily defeatable with automation, or trial and error.)

Time has been the best of the choices, as it doesn't discriminate based on anything but the unemotional, callous and indifferent passage of time.

Alternative views to the above are welcome.

[converge]

Re: Forum Creation: Newbie Forum. [Was: Hi Forum]

Lots of back quotes.. but I think a generic post can cover a lot of that ground without individually addressing each one.

That there will be speakers on a stage, a network, open spaces, and people doing stuff. And music and parties? By that definition all conferences suffer your slow death hypothesis unless they radically reinvent themselves.

Isn't that true about most things though? How many companies see success maintain or increase without consistently reinventing themself in one respect or another? How many relationships endure without somehow changing and renewing? It's not so much the higher level, but the deeper detailed consistency that invokes a lull. You and the Defcon crew have done this considerable to combat this in the past .. as you pointed out later in the post indicating the many external factors playing in at different timeframes in history.

Infrastructure and stability is awesome, don't get me wrong. In many ways Defcon has nearly mastered that, at least by comparison to when I started attending. But the more the conference is centrally solidified, particularly in the content area, the more the feeling of complacence and repetition will spread ... even if it is new content. The more Defcon centrally drives the conference bulk, the less attendees drive the content; they feel less empowered to drive the content with their brains (which is clearly not your desire) and they feel more inclined to arrive at a show that has been intricately prepared for their eyes.

No speakers one year maybe.. that will keep 'em guessing!

Yah! .. why not? Or, maybe one year cut the presentations down to one or two tracks. Let the potential presenters know well in advance and that it could be BRUTAL getting a presentation in unless it is absolutely cream of the crop. Encourage others not to turn away because they can't show a room of 1000 people, but find ways of integrating breakout sessions in smaller groups. Leave presentations for workplaces and find ways to encourage open discussions, hands-on learning. Open the way for more frequent, more available breakouts, from more people .. as well as adhoc participation in the sense of presenting things.

Streamline the leader/organizer concept that we've dabbled with on the forums. Find ways of better communicating breakouts and adhoc events.. maybe a loose structure where they start every hour, half hour, or so .. people can register a breakout they want to give as late as 15 minutes prior and start accumulating interest as late as 10 minutes prior in a room lined with numbers associated to upcoming breakouts. If people know where to look for fun, they will find fun. Breakout leader picks up the group at start and heads off to a designated spot for their session, maybe with some counter-plan or flexibility to upgrade areas if the breakout is just overflooded with people. An SE walks in pretending to be the breakout leader and now you have an even more fun fieldtrip for that group. *shrug*

It's not an overnight thing by far. I can't entirely speak to the best logistics, but there is a *lot* of fun to be had.. the key idea being that the attendees are placed more in a position to share and lead than herd around corridors to the next Kaminsky or Zimmerman talk, only to be upset that they overfilled the largest possible room in the hotel. People need an avenue to pursue good last minute (and feasible) ideas that interest others without having to plan the event for months before the conference and get it officially blessed by Defcon. .. granted within the limitations of some ground rules.

Now, how this all comes back to the forums to me is simple. How do we build the DEF CON community? Of course we don't want lame posts or r0d3nt speak, how k-rad would that be? But I want to focus on building for future glory, not trying to reclaim 'the way it was'.

And this is where my observation leans on not lowering the bar of forum communication to 'Hi, I'm some random jerkoff on the Internet that heard about Defcon today and wanted to learn about hacking.'

I can appreciate being new. I was once new to these forums .. many may remember that my sense of humor and communication was at one time deemed devious (maybe still), back when Blackwa[vy]e account mockery surfaced. My participation in this thread roots only in a mix of post-holiday work-free time and a curiousity of what others think about the subject. It could have simply said that Defcon needs more frogs .. but to me that matters less than an increase in idea flow; the ideas of many can spawn into purple frogs strategically placed during the award ceremony.

As another example, months back I posted about a swimming pool filled with pudding. I honestly could have cared less if it happened in any incarnation, but more that people realized $10 x 50 people with motive could have resulted in a skybox filled with pudding/jello kiddie pools. 500 people with that effort could lend to filling a huge portion of the Riv convention center with pudding. That's participation by less than 7% of the con attendance and similar to the interest that the TBBQ gained to go out in the middle of the desert and eat burgers/chicken. Apply that energy to anything else and its clear that attendees simply don't realize the power of congregation and the _really cool things_ that could spawn up yearly.

Last Defcon I sparked some ideas from observations, chatted with a lot of long-time con-goers about their take on Defcon now vs. then; I also witnessed many long-time attendees run in with the venue and be driven away from the con for not conforming strictly to the 'go to talks and go to the strip or go to bed' expectation. So with the venue bearing on institutional layout, the benefits of the Alexis no longer with us .. it seems like it will take a considerable amount of work to persist the hacker landscape.

But cycling that tangent back to the forums: I've been around these forums for a while now, but as I collect other hobbies and interests I quickly become new to other forums. It takes some adjustment to interact without upsetting other posters .. some forums with a larger curve than others .. usually based on technical depth, but that's the way of things. The importance is not so much what gets posted that moment, but how those threads age over time to remain resources and historical accounts.

Personally, I think the forum rules have adjusted well to meet a level of inclusiveness while maintaining sanity. Seriously, these forums have a third leg up on no less than 99% of the internet forums that I have traversed.

[TheCotMan]

Re: Forum Creation: Newbie Forum. [Was: Hi Forum]

I'm not suggesting that such tags be placed on newbies (in reference to skill level). That would be horribly detrimental to morale and severely hinder anyone new from interacting. I prefer to take steps forward, not back. If a new forum was opened for auto-subscription once registration was completed, and only the newbies were there, it's almost like saying "Hello Womb" before "Hello World". Could work, but it may dissuade the more hardcore (regardless of possibly being regular con-goers).

Again, I could be totally off base, but that's just my thoughts.

A sticky letting new users know, "you can never make a first impression twice," might encourage users in such a space to consider making an intelligent first post that people would want to read and respond to, instead of the less interesting, "I'm leet. Worship me because I know how to use bit torrent clients" or similar posts.

It could also let people know that access to forums with more mature rules open up after a forced lurking period that they agreed to when they signed up.

I'd also like to include astcell's comment about people new to Defcon just being themselves, and not pretending they work for NASA, or are part of The A Team with Mr. T.

What else?

[Ænder]

Re: Forum Creation: Newbie Forum. [Was: Hi Forum]

I'm not suggesting that such tags be placed on newbies (in reference to skill level). That would be horribly detrimental to morale and severely hinder anyone new from interacting. I prefer to take steps forward, not back. If a new forum was opened for auto-subscription once registration was completed, and only the newbies were there, it's almost like saying "Hello Womb" before "Hello World". Could work, but it may dissuade the more hardcore (regardless of possibly being regular con-goers).

Again, I could be totally off base, but that's just my thoughts.

[TheCotMan]

Re: Forum Creation: Newbie Forum. [Was: Hi Forum]

What is, "Newbie," a measure of in such a forum?

The original view was, "New Users," or "People New to Defcon," but the above 2 posts bring in another idea, "New to 'Hacking' or Security."

The original theme was about a place for new users to have a playpen with less restrictive rules. Members could educate new users, or flame them, or do nothing, as it would be community supported by those older members that choose to join it. The only people automatically joined to this forum would be new users.

I really don't like the idea of attributing level of skill in technology with the label of newbie in a newbie forum. Experience says that almost nobody will use it for fear of admitting they don't have any skills.

However, Newbie as applied to people new to the forums and/or Defcon does not infer lack of skill, only lack of experience with the rules or social expectations and environment.

Anyone have thoughts to consider an alternative to this?

Having such an area as user subscribable means it remains hidden from existing users unless they joined the new usergroup.

[Sereyna]

Re: Forum Creation: Newbie Forum. [Was: Hi Forum]

I think I'm with Ænder on this one, but it's early, and he had to bring up Event Horizon... I've never been to DefCon, and I consider m'self very much not-hardcore when it comes to knowledge. The enforced waiting period gave me a chance to do what I like doing best: Lurking and learning. I *liked* that there wasn't a "n00b" or an "intro" forum here, as most older members who value their brain cells tend to veer away from both, leaving only other newbies or folks replying with "Welcome!" repeatedly, but little actual content. I've been literally harassed into making intro posts before, and have always felt that anyone who's interested in learning more about me should be able to check my blog, or heaven forbid, *ask*.

This is one of the few forums I've been to that doesn't expect you to immediately jump in, then questions your post count if you haven't, and I love that. I love the fact that I've been here over a year now and only feel the need to post if I have something legitimate to add to a thread; even then, there are still enough "random" threads that I can contribute to, such as the holiday loot thread. I don't really see where we need an entire forum area dedicated to newbies like me, when we already have /dev/random, and I don't see the point in letting folks clutter up said forum with variations on "Hi, I'm new!"

Also, for what it's worth, while I do sometimes feel like I'm on the outside of the group peering in, I've been to enough other cons to know that it's because there just hasn't been enough time or interaction for me to get to know anyone yet, and those on the "inside" aren't being elitist, they just tend to lean towards their friends. It takes time to be folded into a group, and I'm willing to take that time; I prefer that to being expected to keep to my own little corner of the forums until some unspecified conditions are met.

[Ænder]

Re: Forum Creation: Newbie Forum. [Was: Hi Forum]

I've been reading over this since it started, and I feel that I'd like to add my cents. I've seen a lot of points and counter-points to whether or not to add a noob forum space, whether Defcon is better or worse with ever growing numbers, etc, etc.

The forums are never going to please everyone. On the one hand, there are seasoned con vets who could write volumes about what they know; the hardcore and completely group oriented. Outsiders will remain that until they prove their worth. With that group, the discussion will always be highly technical (read: substantial). That's cool. Nothing wrong with it.

Then you have the leisurely folk. Those who may or may not know the meaning of HDD, SSL, or anything like that. They can't relate to the knowledge of the hardcore, and thus feel like they can't fit in (and the hardcore feel that they're nowhere near their level). There are obviously exceptions to this in every way, so please do not misconstrue my words. With (mostly) these two positions on opposite sides of the spectrum, it's a difficult challenge to overcome, and thusly the community will have a harder time growing.

I should state that I very much approve of the enforced lurking period. I believe it's a necessity to learn proper etiquette in any forum and that one should be versed (at least in good part) on what is being discussed to add something substantial. However, even after l looked over many, many posts, I still find it difficult to know exactly what I can post and how it will be received. Being new in any forum is challenging, but I try to keep an open mind with the notion that there is always more to learn, no matter how much I know or don't know. I believe it's a good stance to take.

I have never been to Defcon. This year will be my first time ever going to any con, and I'm hitting three (Shmoocon, Notacon, Defcon). I don't know protocol for any of these, so I won't pretend to. What I do know is that generally, you either stay a tight knit group, or you expand your numbers. If you can stay tight knit while in the thousands, then more power to you.

The key is to find common ground among the transistors/kernels/tumblers.

While a newbie forum is full of (good?) intentions, it's difficult to say what would work. Since more rules are out of the picture, I can only see a new forum as a subset of \dev\random, as that is the only place a new user can post without getting flamed horribly. Otherwise, all the incredibly well-thought out rules kind of go up in smoke.

Sorry if I go in a few directions at once. It's late, and Event Horizon is fucking with my brain at the moment :)

[TheCotMan]

Re: Forum Creation: Newbie Forum. [Was: Hi Forum]

Is it time for a poll yet?

xor

I've talked about this with mods to see who is interested in supporting this as initially described, and the results are not favorable to supporting a third space. We have about 5 days to go, but a 3rd section seems unlikely. Perhaps a duplicate of an existing space might be possible, but 3 different sets of rules appears to be a no-go and overly complicated.

I won't be adding a poll for members and mods until we have a candidate and proposal that is supportable by mods. As a result, the discussions here continue to work towards providing a list of what members would like to see. This is the process of building one or more proposals for consideration.

So... why not contribute and suggest what you would like to see in such a forum? If you read the posts above, you should see that there is interest in providing something that the community we have would like, and something that the mods are willing to support.

In some ways, this stage of development is more important than voting, as this is where the potential competing selection and options for voting are described. Any user who claims all of the voting options sucks, but failed to participate in this phase has nobody to blame but themselves.

[xor]

Re: Forum Creation: Newbie Forum. [Was: Hi Forum]

Is it time for a poll yet?

xor

[TheCotMan]

Re: hi forum

Holy shit Cot. long winded much?

It is like the bad old days, where people took bets on how long it would take for my keyboard to break. :-)

Such is a risk when there is a desire to focus on *just* including more people, not focusing on retention of an existing base and add more "hacker-types".

So my question to you and everyone else would be: "If we don't go with a newbie forum or welcome forum what is there that can be done to 'add more hacker-types' and retain those members of the community that already exist?".

That is a question that I asked too.
First, we would need a definition for, "hacker types," and what qualified.
Then we would need to look for where they come from.
If they can be, "created," then how?
If they can be encouraged, then how?

Who defines, "hacker types," and would focusing on that definition be an example of elitism?

Maybe we should just turn and run like the techno-mages did...

Well, they didn't all run, did they?
Crusade and other episodes were forked projects from the same series, and the Lost Tales were also part of the same story. There often is at least one stand-out that chooses not to conform to mainstream thought even among a group of people that choose not to conform to mainstream thought.

You have the stats and I don't, you've seen them so you can draw your conclusions. However, my favorite economist (runnerup) often tells me the same thing "Show me your stats and I'll make them say whatever you want them to say."

I've provided graphs of the statistics in the past, but it is a lot of work to build them. If I get several hours of, so-called, "free time," I'll see what I can build to illustrate what I describe and provide the same data for you to draw conclusions upon.

I did publish some stats 1-2 years back:
http://pics.defcon.org/showphoto.php?photo=227

That was through years 2001 to June 2007.

The three tall peaks from right to left are Defcon 2006, 2005, 2004.

That really tiny peak is 2003.

The user activity for 2001 and 2002 was so small compared to the large peaks of 2004-2006 that they don't even show up in the stats.

If you want to keep /dev/random as the "social experiment" then fine... Make the Newbie Forum a child of /dev/random. Call it the n00b forum or something akin to that, but make it obvious by it's name that it's the place for "n00bs". Further, put some sticky's (stickies?) there to start things off.

Of course. Stickies are useful for such things. A forum for newbies would have stickies with information for newbies.

If the most difficult thing is trying to find a damned set of rules that work with the forums as well as specifically /dev/random then tell me and give me a few days and I'll give you a rough draft.

The most difficult thing is to find a set of rules that all of the mods agree to support. In asking for rules, I am asking for suggestions of rules so that members of the community can help shape the very place they use. If you are willing to provide suggestions, then propose them, and we can see how much of a burden they would be for the mods, and if they will support them.

The simplicity of /dev/random with flaming has allowed for decreases in the amount of work required by the mods as the community gets to have more control and input on content and information through social constructs with flaming and adding their voices to others to shape that environment. If members of the community decide to offer praise, then that is also a product of their environment. The actions of the people provide results to the people. /dev/random is the closest thing we have on the forums to the old west.

I'm not telling you to remove the "it is OK to flame" in "/dev/random" proper. Just create a sub-forum where you give people a fucking break. If people don't like it, they won't have to subscribe to it. Further I'm not even saying that there shouldn't be 'flaming' in the n00b forum. What should be different is the type of flaming. Yes my friends, there are different types of flaming... There many different types, but the two the come to mind here are the: I'm going to be kinda harsh but still give you some useful information to set you right and the double middle finger "fuck you" flame.
See, I can complicate matters even more...

Ah! But so called, "constructive criticism," is explicitly defined in the general rules as NOT flaming. Being helpful while showing someone how they made a stupid mistake was explicitly mentioned as allowed. Of course, there are limits as flaming a guy at 12 for 2 hours, only to provide, "you incorrectly spelled a word," is not really constructive criticism, as the comments were more about the flaming than the constructive comments.

Maybe he meant, no speakers besides TheCotMan.

I'm just a clueless newbie. I've nothing of value to speak about at Defcon. I'm a pointy-haired boss (from Dilbert.) I think you even commented that I am pretty quiet in person, and don't talk much.

Must be nice to be able to edit your post here

I can move this discussion to community talk so people can edit posts.

[HighWiz]

Re: hi forum

This is probably going to be a long post so settle in or stop now. Some replies to posts may be out of order, but I'm attempting to group my replies by themes (probably won't work!).

I think you missed my point completely....Hopefully that clarifies that I think we are in violent agreement.

No, I understood your point, you were very clear about it. I suppose I wasn't clear enough in my reply.

DefCon is about all of the differnt hacker types and that is what this forum should be about. I do not believe it should be a place where someone comes and post "teach me to hack" type questions and expect to be spoonfed answers.

I believe that's the first time someone mentioned "spoonfed answers". That's neither my purpose or thought when discussing a newbie forum. I'd venture to say that the no-one here (at least in this thread) is pushing for an area for spoon feeding.

Nor do I believe it should be a place where someone comes and ask questions specific to an application or an Operating System.

Here is where we begin to disagree... If the question is a valid question for discussion or the answer proves to be ungoogleable, then I think this is the perfect place for it. If it's a general "tech support" question, then it's not.

Rather, as I must have unsuccessfully conveyed in my original post, it should be a place where people come and exchange ideas an opinions relative to the CON - what works, what does not work; perspecitive on the venue; perspective on specific talks or subjects, etc.

So with regard to it being about the people, the people are to CON to me and not vice versa.

See, your original message was taken, I just didn't agree with it. I think the forums are much more than just a place to "discuss the con". As for the con being the people and not vice versa I don't think anyone is aruging with you. Back in 2004 I said "Defcon itself is a community..."

You and I just have two different perspectives and perhaps philosophies on what the DefCon forums are and are not, there's nothing wrong with that.

..and this is where I think the disconnect happens because the strongly abrasive take the 'sold out' standpoint to identify their feeling of disturbance, while the side vested in providing a quality experience for many has to compromise as little as possible to actively avoid that visual. But its not the visual that is lacking; not the number of vendors, nor the schwag sales, nor the number of company men that show up versus pimple faced kids with emo hair cuts and duct-taped LCDs. My hypothesis is that the perception pivots on raised levels of control or structure.

I don't see DefCon itself putting such raised levels of control and or structure on the mass of attendees. I do see some other entities that do, but not really DefCon as an organization. This is going to come across much bitchier than it sounds (and for that I do apologize), but is a problem with DefCon or are you just singing the Riviera blues?

I think the forums have weathered the last 6+ years pretty decently overall. My overall list of observations leans my opinion that broadening the forum audience through over-tolerance does not work. Thorn, Chris and others may be able to supply alternate data, but attempts that I've observed on other forums to include people that did not really belong posting .. exponentially deflated the interest of those that were posting.

Participation drop of regulars results in a vacuum that compounds the affect against itself and translates into similar descent for the actual con. Eventually you end up with an endless pool of people showing up and saying 'LOL HI, isn't defcon cool??'. No substance.

Trust me, I understand the problems in 'over-tolerance' both that could exist here and do exist in the world. I truly do not believe that what we're talking about even comes close to a level of over-tolerance. In fact, I'm not even talking about a tolerance over all. I'm talking about a specific section. Well, maybe that's not true... But that's discussion for another day.

Though, your definition of tolerance may differ from mine, so that could be a problem in the future when we use the word. I'm going to stop this part of my discussion... well, because I am.

Such is a risk when there is a desire to focus on *just* including more people, not focusing on retention of an existing base and add more "hacker-types".

So my question to you and everyone else would be: "If we don't go with a newbie forum or welcome forum what is there that can be done to 'add more hacker-types' and retain those members of the community that already exist?".

Not necessarily that it is just bigger (which may assist the effect), but that the overall attitude of attendees is shifting from the hacker mindset to a more traditional show up and attend class persona.

Well now we're getting into the problem of numbers. I don't believe that the overall attitudes of "core" (and I stress that word) attendees is shifting, but rather that there is a greater influx of people who want to learn. Sure there are a good number of non hacker-types and there will be in the future. The core of the DefCon community just has to decide where they want to go from here though. Maybe we should just turn and run like the techno-mages did...

Those leading the charge to try and bring cool things to the con often buy into the more traditional means of spreading their trade. Even something as adhoc as the offsite bbq falls prey to permits and their restrictions, as well as a repeatable and particularly predictable format.

There are always downsides to a bigger event. I know this has been discussed by people in relation to the toxicbbq. You just have to make the decision on how you want an event to be. If you didn't want it to be bigger you could have actively move to make that happen. You didn't, so it is. (I'm using 'you' in a general term, not specifically trying to single "you" out).

With exception to a few late developed surprises, I can already tell you what will happen at the next Defcon. I could have told you at the last Defcon and likely the one before. I think that incremental stagnation is playing into the control/structure factor that solidifies the hypothesis.Mind you I'm not trying to rock the boat, recommend a particular course of action, or in any way discount any of the efforts that have been put forth to make Defcon better to date. I'm simply stating observations.

What would you do though? You said you're not trying to "recommend a particular course of action", why not? You're a core member of the DefCon community, you have some well thought our observations. So what would you do differently? I'm not trying to say "put up or shut up" but rather as a knowledge member of the community you must have some insights into what can be done?

Something on forum statistics.

<Stats Snipped>

You have the stats and I don't, you've seen them so you can draw your conclusions. However, my favorite economist (runnerup) often tells me the same thing "Show me your stats and I'll make them say whatever you want them to say." Here's a joke to illustrate my point better about any "numbers" we try to apply to this.

A mathematician, an accountant and an economist apply for the same job.
The interviewer calls in the mathematician and asks "What do two plus two equal?" The mathematician replies "Four." The interviewer asks "Four, exactly?" The mathematician looks at the interviewer incredulously and says "Yes, four, exactly."

Then the interviewer calls in the accountant and asks the same question "What do two plus two equal?" The accountant says "On average, four - give or take ten percent, but on average, four."

Then the interviewer calls in the economist and poses the same question "What do two plus two equal?" The economist gets up, locks the door, closes the shade, sits down next to the interviewer and says "What do you want it to equal?"

It also comes up in business a lot with my clients, we can show the same stats to four different people and have them draw four different conclusions based on biases.

We have had such discussions about the forums in the past, and we have tried to encourage technical discussions, they mostly seem to fizzle or approximate something like what you see on slashdot.

The conclusion I came away with on this, is the forums will be what the members decide to make them into with what they choose to post. All that I and the rest of the mods can do is provide an opportunity for members to have a space to discuss the kinds of things that

Defcon Forums would be good for discussion, and see what happens.
We had a "Wireless" forum for a while, but it was used less and less until it wasn't used at all. I've tried other similar forums here for technical discussions, but they never really went anywhere.
Two years in a row, I pre-populated forums about all of the presentation topics so people could discuss them as part of Defcon content, but we had almost no activity in those spaces.
Two years, we pre-created forums for media content discussion for people to provide comment after or while watching videos from Defcon, but that also has had almost no activity.

"You can bring a horse to water, but you can't make it drink."

The users will use the forums for what they want to use them for, and we can provide the people with what they want, or not, on a case-by-case basis.

<snip>

If I renamed "/dev/random" (as it is with all of its rules) to "Social Lounge" but kept the rules the same, and referenced it as a place for people to introduce themselves, would that satisfy you and other supporters of this idea, and if so, why? If not, why? (Do you realize that the name "/dev/random" was the community voted name for
it? Ahhhh yes! :-) Community suggestions for a name, and then voted upon by people from the community, and in a forum that is primarily community supported.

If you want to keep /dev/random as the "social experiment" then fine... Make the Newbie Forum a child of /dev/random. Call it the n00b forum or something akin to that, but make it obvious by it's name that it's the place for "n00bs". Further, put some sticky's (stickies?) there to start things off. If the most difficult thing is trying to find a damned set of rules that work with the forums as well as specifically /dev/random then tell me and give me a few days and I'll give you a rough draft.

When we remove the, "it is ok to flame," in that space, then we (the mods) end up having more work, and a kind of work that might put Defcon in a negative light, as we "silence," anything that is, "disagreeable."

I'm not telling you to remove the "it is OK to flame" in "/dev/random" proper. Just create a sub-forum where you give people a fucking break. If people don't like it, they won't have to subscribe to it. Further I'm not even saying that there shouldn't be 'flaming' in the n00b forum. What should be different is the type of flaming. Yes my friends, there are different types of flaming... There many different types, but the two the come to mind here are the: I'm going to be kinda harsh but still give you some useful information to set you right and the double middle finger "fuck you" flame.
See, I can complicate matters even more...

No speakers would be like canceling defcon.

Maybe he meant, no speakers besides TheCotMan.

Free solid gold jet packs that run on the disembodied souls of orphaned children

I have only four words to that: No food for Fuel!

We've gone off on a tangent, some may disagree that we're not, but we were at one point talking about a n00b forum. Now it gets into many other issues (or underlying problems?) that exist both on the forums and DefCon at large.

Now, how this all comes back to the forums to me is simple. How do we build the DEF CON community? Of course we don't want lame posts or r0d3nt speak, how k-rad would that be?

But I want to focus on building for future glory, not trying to reclaim 'the way it was'.
That only got to exist in a specific time and place.. and that is in the past. I'd like
to spend my energy on helping to create an environment for it to happen again and again
in the future.

How do we get more people involved in our hacking community? If the con is the big social gathering of the year, then the forums should be some ongoing place for people to grow their ideas, plan their contests, tell stories about what just happened or just hang
out.

I'm not sure that is the question that people are trying to solve in this thread. Though
it smacks of elitism, I think the item of contention is really, "how do we get more of the *right* people involved with Defcon?"
Anyone care to disagree that this is the real question being asked as the primary item of
contention in this thread?

And if that really is the primary item of contention, what describes, "right people," and
who defines them?

Oh yeah. With that question, things could get really interesting now. ]:>

I had a big reply here for just those two quotes, but maybe it should just be broken off into another thread for discussion since DT's quote/comment itself warrants it.

Last edited by TheCotMan; Today at 03:37 AM.

Must be nice to be able to edit your post here

[Chris]

Re: hi forum

Holy shit Cot. long winded much?