End-of-the-world skills, books and planning...

[renderman]

Re: End-of-the-world skills, books and planning...

Damn me being 2 timezones behind from most of you!

This fits well with a topic I was wanting to develop for a DC talk that I think theprez and i need to talk about.

While not specifically related to survival in the Boy Scout sense, it's more to do with lost knowledge and making hackers useful in case the internet and tech suddenly went away (more in my rant at DC16 about 4.5 minutes in: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIghu...eature=related)

Instead of pure survival, imagine just after the initial situation, what skills do you think are lacking that would be sorely useful in a post-apocalyptic world. EG: building/repairing 2 and 4 stroke engines for generators, transportation, etc as opposed to gas guzzling V8 engines (limited resources, smaller engines are more effecient).

[Thorn]

Re: End-of-the-world skills, books and planning...

Les Stroud/Survivorman is really the inspiration for my project. My trips are not week-long, and I'm not going in without any food/water/etc., but I am hoping to demonstrate the same sorts of techniques from a hacker mentality.

Didn't the USN teach you some basics in this area?

[theprez98]

Re: End-of-the-world skills, books and planning...

Damn me being 2 timezones behind from most of you!

This fits well with a topic I was wanting to develop for a DC talk that I think theprez and i need to talk about.

While not specifically related to survival in the Boy Scout sense, it's more to do with lost knowledge and making hackers useful in case the internet and tech suddenly went away (more in my rant at DC16 about 4.5 minutes in: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIghu...eature=related)

Instead of pure survival, imagine just after the initial situation, what skills do you think are lacking that would be sorely useful in a post-apocalyptic world. EG: building/repairing 2 and 4 stroke engines for generators, transportation, etc as opposed to gas guzzling V8 engines (limited resources, smaller engines are more effecient).

Check your email.

[theprez98]

Re: End-of-the-world skills, books and planning...

Didn't the USN teach you some basics in this area?

Yes. Among some other training, SERE is two weeks long; one week in the classroom and another week out in the sticks. Very little food or shelter, learning to start fires and identify wild edibles, finding water, etc. And instead of just surviving, you get to evade, too!

[Deviant Ollam]

Re: End-of-the-world skills, books and planning...

while I, too, am interested in the Survivalism aspect of various hobbies, like most of us i tend to couch my discussion of the matter in mostly theoretical terms so as not to be thought of as some sort of nutjob... I suspect most of us do the same. One needn't think that such scenarios are likely even as you consider, rather subtly, what steps you can take during a disaster.

Heh, I know that among most of my friends either "zombie attack" or "when the robots come" are sort of code-word phrases that we can use to make light of a subject that could make others nervous at the dinner table.

In truth, it's certainly unlikely that we're going to see nuclear conflict or foreign troops parachuting in so that they can seize our rural farm towns (only to be later terrorized by high school kids with hunting rifles, heh) but as Thorn points out, some of our society's most critical "systems" (like food distribution or the financial sector) are susceptible to temporary failures via marketplace ripples or brief but penetrating disruption and said failures often take more than the blink of an eye for recovery.

Like we pointed out in our "Boomstick-Fu" panel, it's not about "i live in a bad area" or "i expect bad things to happen"... it's about being prepared for unlikely traumatic events should they happen someday.

As far as my own situation goes, whenever i have added to my firearms collection i have made it a point to invest primarily in weapons that would serve well in all scenarios... at the target range, defending a property... and, yes, defending a semi-fortified position on the long term and/or hunting for food in times of societal trouble.

Among my collection the primary pieces are...

Shotguns: 12ga pump Mossberg 590A1, 12ga double-barrel hammer gun
Handguns: .45 M1911s with plenty of mags
Rifles: .22 cal varmint rifles, 5.56 long-barrel for hunting/territory defense

... and I tend to keep close to the maximum allowed limit of ammunition in my home. (And there's no law saying that your neighbors can't also keep a healthy stock of ammo, even if they do not own weapons that shoot every kind they possess... if you are in a close-knit community, that's a pretty terrific way to have enough rounds to handle any eventuality while not breaking the laws concerning bullet storage.)

Back in December, I went "primitive" camping (yes, it was December) on the first of several trips of which I hope will be the basis of a talk I'm already working on

that is really awesome and I'd consider being a part of that with you some time if you'd ever like a guest and depending on the situation. while i love the idea in theory, it sounds like i might disagree with a couple points of the plan...

start a fire without matches or a lighter

see, that's where i start to get off the train. (and i'm not criticizing you personally at all, since i think that what you're doing sounds like a wonderful father/son exercise.)

as Penn & Teller stated in their "End of the World" episode of Bullshit...

What disaster makes it so that guns and matches don't work? If you want to survive, buy a case of ammo and some waterpoof matches.

I would extend the argument to things like poly-fill sleeping bags, etc. Sure, learning to handle yourself in the woods without a vehicle or stockpile of food would be a great thing (and being able to butcher an animal would be something i'd learn to do, nasty or not) but i don't know for sure where the line from "practical" to "theoretical" gets crossed in terms of the whole "primitive" exercise. Still, i think it's wicked badass that you're doing it.

I need to pick up a welder

That's a skill i've wanted to personally develop more but simply have not gotten around to learning enough. I would love to take a welding class. I have a small gas welding set which i've used to successfully join small bits of metal, but nothing all that serious.

Yeah, learning to weld and butcher would be high on my list, as would acquiring a home-reloading kit if i had the space for one. Heh, i've been saving my brass at the range for ages.

[theprez98]

Re: End-of-the-world skills, books and planning...

that is really awesome and I'd consider being a part of that with you some time if you'd ever like a guest and depending on the situation. while i love the idea in theory, it sounds like i might disagree with a couple points of the plan...see, that's where i start to get off the train. (and i'm not criticizing you personally at all, since i think that what you're doing sounds like a wonderful father/son exercise.)

Let's do it. In fact, if I can find a suitable site in southern NJ as suggested above, I will try to do it this spring.

I am not suggesting that lighters/matches/etc should not be carried. I absolutely believe they should be. In fact, there are nice butane lighter torches now that withstand lots of wind. Perfect for starting fires. I believe that you need multiple ways of starting fires. Lighters/matches are easy and require little or no practice. Flint strikers, Swedish firesteel (ftw!) require some practice. Fire bows, fire drills, etc., require a LOT of practice. So while I will take lighters and/or matches, I want to practice the other ways.

[Gadsden]

Re: End-of-the-world skills, books and planning...

If some folks in the NE area want to get together for a survival-style trip, I'm in. I would suggest maybe the first one be in more hospitable weather for practice, then move up from there. I was actually going to do a couple "Bug out Bag" trips this spring/summer/fall.. basically go out with just what can be grabbed in 15 min or less and go. Yes, taking MRE's and water filters is not "roughing it", but it is an excellent "real-world" drill.

Nods to Deviant on the 5XX 12GA (although a 870 is fine as well) and a .22 varmint rifle (I like the 10/22.. great all-around rifle).. but I have to say I would suggest a good .308 battle rifle (M1A, HK-91, or FAL) over 5.56/.223.

As far as reading/watching things.. I would suggest the survival shows out there (Survivorman, Man Vs. Wild, Ray Mears, etc).. And for an interesting (although Hollywood hyped) look at how quickly things could go to shit.. the TV show Jericho.


I have read the following books, and would highly recommend them:

Boston's Gun Bible (BEST BATHROOM BOOK.. EVER!)
The Encyclopedia of Country Living
Crisis Preparedness Handbook: A Complete Guide to Home Storage and Physical Survival
When Technology Fails
SAS Survival Handbook: How to Survive in the Wild, in Any Climate, on Land or at Sea

And for an interesting fiction read on how society could unravel just from our current economic mess, Patriots: Surviving the Coming Collapse

As far as websites, I would suggest the following:
http://www.survivalblog.com/
Total Survivalist Libertarian Rantfest
Viking Preparedness

And for the economy, investing in precious metals can never hurt. I would suggest gold, silver, blued steel, and copper jacketed lead.

This is a huge subject that it seems there are quite a few folks interested in.. maybe we could put together a talk.. anyone in?

[theprez98]

Re: End-of-the-world skills, books and planning...

I was actually going to do a couple "Bug out Bag" trips this spring/summer/fall.. basically go out with just what can be grabbed in 15 min or less and go. Yes, taking MRE's and water filters is not "roughing it", but it is an excellent "real-world" drill.

MRE's is roughing it more than most people ever do.

On my first trip we took a fair amount of food with us but tried to limit it to very basic stuff or canned goods that we could cook up on the fire. For a short trip, no one is going to learn basic traps, snares and deadfalls to provide food.

We took a limited supply of water and found the rest just by searching. It was a ground spring, so probably relatively clean, but if I had to do it all over again (and I will!) I would have boiled it first. Water that you might suspect could not possibly be contaminated could easily have giardia, and that would suck to get. So boiling and/or filters is highly advised.

One thing I didn't try this time (because it was December) was to build a solar still. I will definitely have that on my list for next time.

In that same vein, if others in the Baltimore/DC metro area want to get together for a "primitive" camping trip I would be more than happy to help organize.

[Thorn]

Re: End-of-the-world skills, books and planning...

If some folks in the NE area want to get together for a survival-style trip, I'm in. I would suggest maybe the first one be in more hospitable weather for practice, then move up from there. I was actually going to do a couple "Bug out Bag" trips this spring/summer/fall.. basically go out with just what can be grabbed in 15 min or less and go. Yes, taking MRE's and water filters is not "roughing it", but it is an excellent "real-world" drill.

Nods to Deviant on the 5XX 12GA (although a 870 is fine as well) and a .22 varmint rifle (I like the 10/22.. great all-around rifle).. but I have to say I would suggest a good .308 battle rifle (M1A, HK-91, or FAL) over 5.56/.223.

As far as reading/watching things.. I would suggest the survival shows out there (Survivorman, Man Vs. Wild, Ray Mears, etc).. And for an interesting (although Hollywood hyped) look at how quickly things could go to shit.. the TV show Jericho.


I have read the following books, and would highly recommend them:

Boston's Gun Bible (BEST BATHROOM BOOK.. EVER!)
The Encyclopedia of Country Living
Crisis Preparedness Handbook: A Complete Guide to Home Storage and Physical Survival
When Technology Fails
SAS Survival Handbook: How to Survive in the Wild, in Any Climate, on Land or at Sea

And for an interesting fiction read on how society could unravel just from our current economic mess, Patriots: Surviving the Coming Collapse

As far as websites, I would suggest the following:
http://www.survivalblog.com/
Total Survivalist Libertarian Rantfest
Viking Preparedness

And for the economy, investing in precious metals can never hurt. I would suggest gold, silver, blued steel, and copper jacketed lead.

This is a huge subject that it seems there are quite a few folks interested in.. maybe we could put together a talk.. anyone in?

The AR-7 is a great little rifle for a bug out bag. My bug out bag is a Rubbermaid Action Packer that sits in the garage, and can slide into the SUV in less than a minute.

As much as I like the big guns for hunting, shear stopping power, penetration, etc., having multiple calibers can result in it's own problems. For that reason, a several of my long guns are pistol caliber, which allows for feeding either a rifle or a handgun.

[shrdlu]

Re: End-of-the-world skills, books and planning...

Warning: I'm replying before I've read the thread of replies, something I don't ordinarily do, nor recommend.

What skills have you learned partly because you considered an, "end of the world," scenario might come true? What actions have you or your family completed to prepare for such an event? Did you grow up in a family that constructed a bomb shelter? Have you ever stocked up on K rations, or other military surplus foods that last a long time? Ammunition? Reload? Caps? Shells?

Buy a decent bow and arrows, and learn how to use them. Ammo's not forever. Make escape routes from where you are to where weather is bad. People who want it easy will head south. Head north. Stay away from roads. Stock up on seeds, and learn which plants are edible, and which plants will make you dead, quick.

Have you bought or picked up any books related to this. If so, what books? Which did you find the best for you? why?

Both of my favorites were gifts, rather than purchases. You should still be able to find them, at least used.

Lost Country Life by Dorothy Hartley (1979) gives you a feel for how things should go, and lots of suggestions. ISBN 0-394-74838-7

The number one book you should have is The Encyclopedia of Country Living, by Carla Emery (1994) ISBN 0-912365-95-1

Everything you could desire is in there, from making soap to slaughtering hogs, and from detecting Lyme disease to homemade gelatin.

Nearly forgot. Rodale's Herbs. Don't have the ISBN handy, but it's just the best.

Have you ever joined groups of other people to learn more? Cults? Did you ever leave ;-) ?

Not much of a joiner. I've known some seriously crazy survivalists in my wicked youth. Heck, I used to hang out with people who ended every conversation with "Come the Revolution..."

More details later, after I've read what others have written.

[Deviant Ollam]

Re: End-of-the-world skills, books and planning...

something worth mentioning, due primarily to its value as entertainment as much as information (or possibly, due exclusively to its wonderfully enjoyable qualities) are the chronicles of Dick Proenneke.

A Navy carpenter and mechanic, this man chose to retire in Alaska, living almost all of his last 30 years in a cabin that he constructed by hand using no modern tools. While he did order supplies on occasion from back home (or through mail order from Sears) the items which were delivered via occasional airplane trips were rare. Almost everything he survived on up there was created with his own two hands and the land.

I mention him because PBS and other similar outfits have shown remarkable works featuring him, his journals, etc. The web site dedicated to him offers much for sale, but more than anything i'd recommend people get their hands on Alone in the Wilderness, a short film made entirely using footage that Dick shot himself with an 8mm camera and narrated by passages read from his journal and letters home.

I do not know anyone who has seen this piece and not wanted, if just for a moment, to leave it all behind and live in a cabin somewhere up in the mountains just like that. I know that i would do it in a heartbeat if only there was a way of magically giving me a steamy hot shower and an infinite supply of fluffy, fluffy towels somehow. That and unlimited broadband interwebs.

(NOTE - there appear to be copies of that film floating about on the tubes, captured from broadcasts on public television. If you perhaps don't own a DVD player, you might want to look here for a copy you can play on your computer instead.)

[DaKahuna]

Re: End-of-the-world skills, books and planning...

Being basically lazy but nature, my solution to this problem is to move to Amish country in Pennsylvania, have Streaker69 adopt me. The Amish have been flourishing in this manner for years, if not centuries.

[afterburn188]

Re: End-of-the-world skills, books and planning...

Let's do it. In fact, if I can find a suitable site in southern NJ as suggested above, I will try to do it this spring.

My primary requirements are; being allowed to "primitive" camp (which is surprisingly limited in many places), being allowed to build fires (usually not a problem if you're not in fire season), and staying away from "prepared" campsites with fire rings of which I have no interest.

I can recommend several locations where this can be done. Building fires is usually not that big of an issue if you get the proper permit, even in fire season. As for suitable sites in southern NJ I can personally recommend several from experience if you are interested. Another great resource for finding locations surprisingly is geocaching clubs. They often will have knowledge of areas and create caches in interesting locations for both natural interests and historical. As for beach locations, southern Delaware around the cape henlopen area provides locations for excursions. I can scrounge up more specifics later if people are interested. Maybe it would be an interesting topic for an unofficial discussion at Shmoocon?

I would extend the argument to things like poly-fill sleeping bags, etc. Sure, learning to handle yourself in the woods without a vehicle or stockpile of food would be a great thing (and being able to butcher an animal would be something i'd learn to do, nasty or not) but i don't know for sure where the line from "practical" to "theoretical" gets crossed in terms of the whole "primitive" exercise. Still, i think it's wicked badass that you're doing it.

While I agree with you that it may be more theoretical than practical, I feel that these skills are exactly that: skills. They are things that it can't hurt to know and give one the basic mindset for other things. For instance: if your matches get wet, they are not easy to light, what now? You purchased water proof ones, and now the wind is blowing. There are instances where it may not be so much that you don't have matches but more that they aren't practical. While rubbing sticks together can be a bit extreme, learning alternative methods is something to not be taken lightly. People know the common ones, steel wool and a 9V battery, flint and steel, etc however there are some other techniques which are quite effective that do not commonly get looked at. Also techniques for making that first spark count will get ignored because people assume once they have that match lit, they are good. Magnesium shavings combined with any of those techniques will start your fire in pretty much any situation. I feel it is a thin line between practical and theoretical like you said, just make sure you don't ignore the practical fearing the theoretical. Wow even I am confused now...

[TheCotMan]

Re: End-of-the-world skills, books and planning...

It sounds like you might have enough people interested in this to make and submit a panel-talk on each kind of skill. It also sounds like some of you are talking about organizing a panel in email and forum PM. :-)

Like the Toxic BBQ, it is possible for such a presentation to lead to an off-site break-out session with opportunities to make fire, or other things that might be dangerous or frowned-upon in-doors. Scouting such a site might take some work, and you wouldn't want to have it in a place where there would be a fire risk in the middle of the desert. Perhaps a vegas local could help you in finding a place?

Fire is allowed in BBQ pits at parks, right? Who cares how the fire actually gets there? ]:>

If a follow-up to a presentation did exist off-site, it would almost certainly have to be an unofficial event.

Heck, you could even make this an annual, pre-con event:
"Hacker Survivalist in Las Vegas"
(Of course the name is not important.)
It could become something like, "Frontier Days," or, "Pioneer Days," with kids coming to ask you how it was in the, "olden days," with magnetic core memory made by hand and operating systems booting from paper tape.

[barry99705]

Re: End-of-the-world skills, books and planning...

Being basically lazy but nature, my solution to this problem is to move to Amish country in Pennsylvania, have Streaker69 adopt me. The Amish have been flourishing in this manner for years, if not centuries.

I like the way you think. It's settled then. Next apocalypse we all head to Streaker's house.