What's the point of defcon?

[flea]

Re: What's the point of defcon?

I feel like everything has been said so I'll keep this short and just add support.

agree:
the riv is taking a lot of fun out of defcon.
room parties are 1/2 of the fun of defcon.
cash bars just will NOT satisfy attendees.
with all due respect to kode and ninjas (and a lot is due), offsite parties are a bummer
sat night felt like 1/2 of defcon was missing.
freakshow is a corp event that takes away space from other fun (B&W etc)

disagree:
-the riv is just trying to run a business, I think they're trying to squeeze us.
-everybody at the riv is against us, I think Theresa genuinely wants to make us happy
-riv security hates us, I think that they have to look at everything and make a lot of judgment calls.

In summary, when all of the factors are applied, I think the result is that the riv is not doing so well as defcon's host. I understand they're starved for cash but they're not going to get it squeezing us. For instance, food was HORRIBLE AND OVERPRICED. Want to make some money riv? Feed us something edible and well priced, we'll beat a path to it.

OPEN THE POOL. KEEP IT OPEN. MAKE IT A **PRIORITY** TO REOPEN WHEN OUTSIDE FORCES MAKE YOU CLOSE IT. I know for a FACT that nobody was really all that concerned it was closed for the bees, same kind of urgency that would apply any time of the year. THE POOL IS IMPORTANT TO US.

I think it's pretty clear, you'll have a hard time finding people in support of the riv at this point. Time to look at other options and let the riv compete.


(longer than I wanted)

[Schuyler]

Re: What's the point of defcon?

The freakshow is NOT the same thing as Penthouse/Ninjas and honestly shouldn't even be mentioned in the same sentence.

I didn't at all mean to offend. Just trying to ask if all they are doing is throwing money at the problem of the Riv. If that's the case, then yes, it's a moot example, but again, it was a question, not an accusation. If they have managed to pave any of the rockier roads in the planning of their party, that you or any other attendee party could make use of, it seems like it would be good to know about. Again, if it's just cash, then yeah, it's moot.

I'll also reassert that the random room party atmosphere isn't dead. I don't think it will ever die. I just think as the random room parties turn into more organized, annual events, they will hit a hard transitional wall from "hey, you guys, I've got a keg, come grab a beer" to a formalized event.

I know that I popped into several random room parties of people I had never met before & wasn't the only one there, so I'm confident there are plenty of people that don't believe the open door impromptu parties are a thing of the past.

[Vyrus]

Re: What's the point of defcon?

Dude the freak show is a *corporate* event. If I've said it once, I've said it a million times. *any* asshole can open their wallet, it takes fucking TALENT to do what Penthouse/Ninjas do.

quoted for truth. honestly i think some of the argument here is getting a bit more about the "parties" and the logistical and financial burden, which exists for sure but the way i see it the REAL issue at hand is that the "attendee" party is already dead.

I would most emphatically support anything necessary to make sure that the staple parties of defcon don't go away but the REAL spirit of the con for me when i started (just like kalahar, as a teenager who knew absolutely NULL walking around the pools at the AP) is in the goon "can opener" philosophy of yester year. the BEST parties didn't HAVE names back in the day, they were random people who bought some booze and open there door and played some music. You walked in and within the next hour you didn't know if you would be hacking apart a vending machine for buffers, or testing some new drunken devised crypto theory on the wifi network. or just staying up till all hours of the night talking about shit NOBODY else you know at home can / will converse about. THIS is what defcon has lost... THIS is what must be reattained.

much like CP i cant say i have the "magic bullet" answer for this one but while i agree that doing a 100% off- site move of the parties might save our unique party "scene"; it is IMO definitely NOT the answer to the over all "comradely of defcon" problem. the social atmosphere as a whole must be re - attained and that has to happen AT the venue, weather it be at the riv or not.

i like the "defcon tower" idea but i honestly don't know the feasibility of such a request, as it simply does not seem as if we have enough leverage to squeeze the riv hard enough. there going to get paid regardless and they will have no qualms about moving our entire con back to "biz as usual". i would LOVE to see defcon move to a resort of some kind in hopes that it might offer the same "mini village" like atmosphere we had at the Alexis Park but i honestly dont know the feasibility of this ether.

[icetre]

Re: What's the point of defcon?

Who mentioned it was to cut down on the posers?

I raise the price because there is an economic reality called "inflation" and "The cost of doing business", not to keep people out.

For example, in 2007, ShmooCon was $75, $150, and $300 depending on when you bought tickets, and they have 30+ sponsors in 2009. DEF CON has no paying sponsors and is a flat $120.

Maybe next year I'll have to raise the price again and we can see if your theory works! ;-)

I could swear that's not the case, as it has been mentioned numerous times in the forums, but being that I'm entirely too lazy too look I will concede that your correct and apologize.

My suggestions weren't entirely baseless though DT. With a convention of this size I think we're going to have to come to grips that pre-reg is needed.

I for one am very public about being at con. Allow for on site cash reg for the paranoid and paypal for the rest of us.

I'm sure there's quite a few people who would pre-reg.

Further benefit: Put the pre-reg funds in a interest bearing account and make even more money while waiting for con. :)

Myself, I claim defcon as business related training on my taxes. I'm pretty sure everyone knows I go and what my government name is.

[icetre]

Re: What's the point of defcon?

That said? Freakshow is half of what I've talked about since I've been home this time around & I can't imagine skipping it for something else next year. There are great parties, open to all DC attendees. B&W ball seem to be getting dismissed by a lot of people, too, but they pull in a lot of attendees too. And at the end of the night, there are still plenty of people leaving a door open, or shouting invites out of their windows to come hang out. Just saying, when it comes to concern of noobs being able to find a place in the hotel to have fun, socialize, drink & dance, I don't think we're in dire straits by any means.

Dude the freak show is a *corporate* event. If I've said it once, I've said it a million times. *any* asshole can open their wallet, it takes fucking TALENT to do what Penthouse/Ninjas do (not forgetting the other parties, but they mostly play by the riv's rules. Cash bar, etc.)

It's not about amazing parties. It's about the average joe being able to throw down. IOActive throws down cash to do that.

I can tell you for the last 3 years (not counting this year) the main source of cash for the penthouse party was *my wallet* It was done on the cheap using our talent, bartenders, security, food, and booze.

That party takes me over a *year* to organize and fund. The only sponsors I've accepted in the past were merchandie sponsors. IE Brawndo. Other than this year *no one* gives me dime one other than Dallas, and his contribution while very much appreciated is about 1% of the total budget.

Just to make you realize: Your comparing apples to sausage gravy.

The freakshow is NOT the same thing as Penthouse/Ninjas and honestly shouldn't even be mentioned in the same sentence.

Part of the reason that this matters, is that it used to be that ANYONE willing to put forth the effort and a minimal amount of cash can do what the ninjas and the penthouse does. Because of the Riv's draconian policies, that's no longer the case.

[xor]

Re: What's the point of defcon?

Who mentioned it was to cut down on the posers?

I raise the price because there is an economic reality called "inflation" and "The cost of doing business", not to keep people out.

For example, in 2007, ShmooCon was $75, $150, and $300 depending on when you bought tickets, and they have 30+ sponsors in 2009. DEF CON has no paying sponsors and is a flat $120.

Maybe next year I'll have to raise the price again and we can see if your theory works! ;-)

Sponsors...posers, sponsors...posers; we don't need no stinking sponsors and posers!!!! Defcon should stay like Neil Young, brought to you , by you. Of course if sponsorship means more free open bars, and strippers perhaps sponsorship isn't such a bad thing


xor

[LosT]

Re: What's the point of defcon?

The point of Defcon is to give me a place to run the Mystery Challenge. ;)

LosT

[TheCotMan]

Re: What's the point of defcon?

unless things can literally be 3 to 5 minutes of a trip, i can't imagine liking them a whole lot... there's just that painfully difficult text "hey, we're in [whatever room] and it's great, you should stop by if you can!" that makes me go "urgh" if i'm off site.

You sir, are far more social than I am. Me? I tend to go to one party, and hang out there for a while. Once I get to a location, I pretty much stay there and socialize with the people that are there. If parties were first-person-shooters, I'd probably be a camper, and stay in one location, on the grassy knoll, or maybe the book depository. ;-)

Additionally, with the results of the various parties being shut down in private rooms, and in suites, in 5 minutes, that party you were heading to could be closed by the time you get there.

Only the Skybox parties, and maybe the "Top of the Riv" locations have had much success at having parties last longer, but even the Top Of the Riv was shutdown early one year because of noise.

If I was going to host a party for Defcon, and I just observed the failure in parties this year, and parties that were shut down, I too would prefer to go with a known-good, and workable solution. Since we've been at the riv, how many parties have been shut down?

Compare that to the number off off-site parties that have been shut down.

It seems the off-site location understand that their job is making their customers happy, and their customer are likely their primary source of income, or a substantial part of their income. For example, to the Riv, Defcon is a "big" customer, but compared to a tiny penthouse or Skybox party, the party is tiny. Because of this, smaller off-site venues are likely to be more accommodating to their customers, and not kick their customers out. Additionally, if an off-site party *does* happen to go sour, the people throwing the party are not at risk for being perma-banned from the location of Defcon, and as a result, perma-banned from Defcon so long as it is at that location.

This provides 2 common tools used in security:
* Encapsulation: What happens at the off-site party, stays at the off-site party
* Layered Security: A barrier exists between the off-site location and the hotel so that future Defcon attendance is not a risk.

I can see many advantages to having a party off-site, and the only disadvantage is to the possible attendees.

Most of the people that attend Defcon are adults, and can make up their own minds. If they want to boycott, or skip all off-site parties because off-site parties hinders by encumbering agility to change their mind and follow-through, then they can make a rational decision about off-site parties and not attend them.

Ultimately, that is what it comes down to: choice. When we are invited, we can all choose to go, or not. If we don't go, then we must have found something better, and if we found something better, what is wrong with that? :-)

Me? I prefer to not look a gift horse in the mouth. If I'm lucky enough to get to a party, even if it is off site, I will be thankful and appreciative for the opportunity, and if I have nothing else going on, consider the field trip. Life is what happens to us when we are planning to do something else. (Yuck. Now I feel like a hippie for saying that.)

I like the choices. I like the diversity. I like on-site and off-site parties. All of these choices are really great. The only problem I see is making a decision.

Now, back to the topic at hand, and an obligatory on-topic reply:
What is the point of Defcon? Why does Defcon exist?

The point of Defcon is for people to meet each other, talk, listen and socialize.
Defcon exists because people go to Defcon and contribute to Defcon. If people stopped going to Defcon, there would be no Defcon. In other news, Defcon 17 was canceled. If you were at Defcon 17, you must have just dreamed it up, and you probably shouldn't take that drug test at work on Monday.

[Dark Tangent]

Re: What's the point of defcon?

Several times over the last 10 years the price of a badge has been raised. One of the reasons mentioned each time was to cut down on posers.

Well 10 years later, the posers are still here, in abundance, and the price is higher than ever.

Who mentioned it was to cut down on the posers?

I raise the price because there is an economic reality called "inflation" and "The cost of doing business", not to keep people out.

For example, in 2007, ShmooCon was $75, $150, and $300 depending on when you bought tickets, and they have 30+ sponsors in 2009. DEF CON has no paying sponsors and is a flat $120.

Maybe next year I'll have to raise the price again and we can see if your theory works! ;-)

[Schuyler]

Re: What's the point of defcon?

I've been blown away for two years now by IOActive's Freakshow. So, how are they pulling it off? While some of the kegs tapped out part way through the evening, I was still finding running, free beer even after the bartenders had packed up. The music was incredible, the inflatables were ridiculous, but also ridiculously popular and fun to watch. The fire dancer & bendy girl were both wicked talented and well displayed.

I mean, great music, huge venue, late night, free beer, also a cash bar, fire! and enormous inflatable games. Are they just blowing tons of money to get the Riv stamp of approval?

I tend to agree with Barkode on the nice coverage for attendees. I'll be honest, I was jonesing for a Ninja badge this year (stupid Valanx knocked me out of first place at the last possible moment in Gringo and got one for himself as a result...) and have wanted to attend it since before I came to my first DC. I've been reading about DC (and all the other Cons) & all the ancillary events for years. I'm a total culture dork and always remain a bit in awe when I'm actually in attendance now.

That said? Freakshow is half of what I've talked about since I've been home this time around & I can't imagine skipping it for something else next year. There are great parties, open to all DC attendees. B&W ball seem to be getting dismissed by a lot of people, too, but they pull in a lot of attendees too. And at the end of the night, there are still plenty of people leaving a door open, or shouting invites out of their windows to come hang out. Just saying, when it comes to concern of noobs being able to find a place in the hotel to have fun, socialize, drink & dance, I don't think we're in dire straits by any means.

[icetre]

Re: What's the point of defcon?

yeah, it's all about the flexibility for me. i'd prefer to keep brainstorming on ways to dump the Riv's rules, regs, and interference when it comes to parties.

<obvious>Dump the riv in favor of a non-casio hotel with the capacity for 8k, allow for preregistration, cap registration at 8k much like shmoocon.

Detach BH from DC by at least 2 or 3 weeks, and make BH atendees pay for DC if they still want to go. </obvious>

Several times over the last 10 years the price of a badge has been raised. One of the reasons mentioned each time was to cut down on posers.

Well 10 years later, the posers are still here, in abundance, and the price is higher than ever.

The above will cut down on the lamer ratio and make con a little more predictable and tolerable for the rest of us.

[Deviant Ollam]

Re: What's the point of defcon?

just going point by point, i'll address some of my feelings on the matter in response to the opinions that you are offering here. this is all in the spirit of open discussion, of course... i dig you and respect you a lot but (for obvious reasons) we seem to have differing perspectives on the issue of off-site parties.

Most conferences worldwide include events that take place away from the primary venue.

aye, but most conferences are not DEFCON... the whole nature of what makes DEFCON amazing (at least in my view) is the vast multiplicity of what is going on all the time once the weekend is in full swing.

DEFCON has had many offsite events for years - the shoot, the toxic BBQ, etc. I think it's a natural progression to start having offsite parties as well.

all of the other events are pre-con (or post con on rare occasion)

I mean I remember seeing you in Amsterdam at BlackHat, then we all walked from the Moevenpick to the central station

indeed... but the offerings of anything happening at the hotel were basically nil, especially compared to being down in the city.

push some things offsite, and cope with it as you would at any other event, by deciding where to go and what to see.

it is that need to make decisions and be unable to easily shift that make offsite events difficulty for me.

we should focus on how to make sure off-site events are easily and quickly accessible

unless things can literally be 3 to 5 minutes of a trip, i can't imagine liking them a whole lot... there's just that painfully difficult text "hey, we're in [whatever room] and it's great, you should stop by if you can!" that makes me go "urgh" if i'm off site.

IMHO, the "wandering" part of Defcon is the most enjoyable.

spot-on, i agree with you there.

Being able to catch Hacker Jepoardy, Queercon, 10,000 Cent pyramid, the Penthouse party, Movie night (Ghost in the shell rocks), the Black and White Ball and all the other neat stuff at night is what Defcon is about for me.

i feel exactly the same way.

Trying to party hop even if there is a shuttle provided is a huge pain in the arse and a major buzz kill. You can't just swing by the door and see if it is lame or awesome, or if there is anyone you know there or not.

yeah, it's all about the flexibility for me. i'd prefer to keep brainstorming on ways to dump the Riv's rules, regs, and interference when it comes to parties.

[Rhenium]

Re: What's the point of defcon?

IMHO, the "wandering" part of Defcon is the most enjoyable. Being able to catch Hacker Jepoardy, Queercon, 10,000 Cent pyramid, the Penthouse party, Movie night (Ghost in the shell rocks), the Black and White Ball and all the other neat stuff at night is what Defcon is about for me.

Trying to party hop even if there is a shuttle provided is a huge pain in the arse and a major buzz kill. You can't just swing by the door and see if it is lame or awesome, or if there is anyone you know there or not. Yes the Riv can be a crap hole, but you need to keep as much stuff in one place or Defcon fragments and dies.

Rhenium

[barkode]

Re: What's the point of defcon?

pushing things off-site may be the most effective way to hit the Riv in the wallet, but it is killing DEFCON for me and most people whom i know.

With all due respect, I think that's a little dramatic, and an exaggeration.

Most conferences worldwide include events that take place away from the primary venue. DEFCON has had many offsite events for years - the shoot, the toxic BBQ, etc. I think it's a natural progression to start having offsite parties as well. There's just practical limitations on what's possible in a single venue.

I mean I remember seeing you in Amsterdam at BlackHat, then we all walked from the Moevenpick to the central station in ass-cold weather, and rode into southern Amsterdam for a TOOOL meeting. Sure it wasn't an official part of BlackHat, but it was an awesome event occurring pari passu BlackHat, and was worth leaving the hotel over.

There's still plenty of "wanderability" at DEFCON. But as it gets bigger and more complex, and as the events grow, I think we're going to see more off-site events. When I first came to DEFCON it was 200 dudes in one room. Now we take over an entire hotel. I think we need to accept the idea that growth and scope creep is going to push some things offsite, and cope with it as you would at any other event, by deciding where to go and what to see.

Also, this isn't about hitting the Riv in the wallet, it's about the difference between events occurring and not occurring.

I mean let's be frank here - one would spend more time waiting in line for a popular talk than they would traveling to the a nearby offsite party. It's not the same as wandering from skybox to skybox, but that's the tradeoff for higher-quality events and activities. I mean, you can't do the Toxic BBQ in a skybox, or the DEFCON Shoot in a skybox. Sometimes you just gotta leave the property.

So, instead of fighting the inevitable, I think we should focus on how to make sure off-site events are easily and quickly accessible, and that con attendees are not spread too thin. Honestly, I think right now between Ninja, IOActive, B&W, and Penthouse, we have things balanced out nicely. I don't know what impact the Facebook party had, I heard little about it other than it was at Studio 54 (which is a rad venue). I think if we continue as we are, things should be OK, even if Penthouse moves offsite/nearby.

I mean, to sum it up: a lot of these events are square pegs and the Riviera is a round hole. You either have to throw out the pegs, or you find a new hole.

So don't let your DEFCON experience, or your Vegas experience, be limited by the walls of the Riviera or the psychological barriers of going out the front door. I mean, if we did that, nobody would have experienced Quarks, a DEFCON tradition!

[xor]

Re: What's the point of defcon?

This was my 3rd Defcon and my best. I use to come out for the talks, now I come out to meet & hang out with some of the coolest people on the planet, support causes I believe in, and some I don't, but the people running them are worth supporting.

Hackers and social skills are not items you usually see in the same sentence. I think invite only parties, and off-site ones force people to socialize. People do me a favor when they challenge me in technology as well as other very important areas in life.

I made it to a lot of parties and events this year, some I was invited to, some I wasn't. For me being a hacker of life that's half of the fun. Some might think well that's wrong, but I think that's part of being a hacker. As long as you aren't there to cause trouble and are willing to contribute to the festivities more power to you in my book. Folks at Defcon aren't excluding you, only you exclude you by not taking a chance and participating in the events. I understand this is harder if you are in a large groups of friends. It's much easier when you are by yourself.

As for n00bs, I was one once. I knew no one, I started out on the Netstumber & Defcon forums and took the chance and shared my brain with folks. Sometimes I made an ass out of myself other times not. I know a lot of people now, and hope to know even more. You don't have to volunteer or be a goon to participate. You can share your room, you can offer rides, there is so much you can do to get to know people if you are a n00b. There are many people here I think are worth the effort to get to know.

As far as the whole off-site verses on-site; if it wasn't for the shoot I would have never seen the incredible landscape that surrounds Las Vegas(religious experience). If I never fired a shot it would have been well worth it. I got to ride out to the shoot with some new and very cool people I've never met before and it got me outside, and got me some sun. I got some shooting tips from a real life sniper, dudes how cool is that.

I got to go over the Hilton for a party and also meet some very cool folks as well as have a great meal(thanks Dakahuna). IMHO you are doing yourself a dis-service and totally missing out on the Defcon "experience" if you don't leave the hotel.

I haven't tried to plan an event there so I can't imagine what folks must be up against but I thought I would offer my perspective. I had a wonder time, perhaps the best ever this year. Despite the strippers/credit card incident.

Just my 2 cents.

xor