Evil Hackers hacking Wifi

[hexjunkie]

Re: Evil Hackers hacking Wifi

You are expecting every person to understand the technical aspects of every piece of technology that they purchase, which is of course impossible.

I would never expect everyone to know every aspect of the technology, I think all of us have at least one gadget that they do not fully understand. I will say that we have to hire an electrician to do our wiring, a plumber to do our plumbing, why not hire a guy to install our network (for the ones on this forum this doesn't apply but the average consumer it should). To push that statement further most electronics stores offer an install service for free or a nominal fee.


There are laws requiring auto insurance
there are laws about installing your own electrical lines
there are laws about installing your own telephone lines
there are laws about installing your own roof, plumbing, blah blah blah

but there are no laws for installing network devices?

[TheCotMan]

Re: Evil Hackers hacking Wifi

but there are no laws for installing network devices?

Linked from a recent slashdot story, Germans have laws on open access points. Citizens can be fined up to euro100 ($126) if a third party takes advantage of their unprotected WLAN connection to illegally download music or other files.

[streaker69]

Re: Evil Hackers hacking Wifi

There are laws requiring auto insurance
there are laws about installing your own electrical lines
there are laws about installing your own telephone lines
there are laws about installing your own roof, plumbing, blah blah blah

but there are no laws for installing network devices?

So you feel the solution is more regulation, laws and bureaucracies? I really don't see that as a solution.

In a recent slashdot story, Germans have laws on open access points. Citizens can be fined up to euro100 ($126) if a third party takes advantage of their unprotected WLAN connection to illegally download music or other files.

Nothing like blaming the victim. What's next for the Germans, fining women that get raped if they're dressed too provocatively?

[Thorn]

Re: Evil Hackers hacking Wifi

There are laws requiring auto insurance
there are laws about installing your own electrical lines
there are laws about installing your own telephone lines
there are laws about installing your own roof, plumbing, blah blah blah

but there are no laws for installing network devices?

Well, I'll give you the first one, because it was finally pushed through here by the insurance companies to limit their own problems. As for the others, my answer is "Not in my state!" We're free to do as we please. If someone is so stupid to do it wrong, that's their problem. No offense, but it appears you live in DC, which is the epitome of government running every detail of your life -all for your own good, of course- so I'm not too surprised to see that a law to deal with this might be the way you would expect this particular issue to be handled.

I do install wireless devices, and while I'd certainly welcome more business, I'd hate to have it happen at yet another expense of personal freedom.

By the way, one other contrast which you may find of interest since you've contributed to the Defcon Shoot threads, here we don't require any kind of state firearm licensing or permits, even for concealed carry.

[hexjunkie]

Re: Evil Hackers hacking Wifi

You are partially right Thorn, some days I think I have been here too long :(

And where ever you live, I want to start shopping for a house!

My issues are with people always claiming to be the victim in a crime that they can take very easy steps to prevent. While people do not like blaming the victim and the most common cry is to what about rape victims.. rape and other violent crimes like murder and assault are the exception to blaming the victim(because there is no easy way to prevent these types of crimes).

In the case of the mortgage crisis, I look at some of the people complaining about their foreclosure, and find out that they signed for a 300+ thousand dollar loan that the combined household income is less that 50,000 a year and saying its the banks fault when they cant afford it, or the guy that didn't go to court, complain when there is a bench warrant out for his arrest, blah the list goes on and on. It is frustration on my part that people go I am the victim and I cannot be blamed... so forgive my previous rants I will now be quiet.

I've gone way to far off the original topic, so I removed a good portion of what I had posted.

[YenTheFirst]

Re: Evil Hackers hacking Wifi

I think part of my confusion is I was responding to the constitutional 'expectation of privacy' post. If someone accesses your network illegally, they've done something illegal, no matter how trivial it may be. In the case of police, though, if you haven't even attempted to secure your AP, they're allowed to look at this open AP, even without a warrant.

So, if one gets busted for the contents of an open network, who can you blame but the 'victim'? In that case, the 'attacker' (the police), is doing their job as laid out and described by law.


as for 'knowing every aspect of technology' - I don't expect everyone to be an expert, of course, but I agree with the reasoning that was used in the case I linked to before, which argued that the average member of society already does understand that unprotected wifi can be accessed.

[streaker69]

Re: Evil Hackers hacking Wifi

I think part of my confusion is I was responding to the constitutional 'expectation of privacy' post. If someone accesses your network illegally, they've done something illegal, no matter how trivial it may be. In the case of police, though, if you haven't even attempted to secure your AP, they're allowed to look at this open AP, even without a warrant.

I'm confused as to why you think the police should be allowed to do that? There are laws regarding the trespass into computer networks, and the police would be violating that law by searching an open network without a warrant.

While what the guy was doing in that case you cited is revolting, I could see the defense going after "JH" as possibly intentionally intruding upon his network in an effort to gather evidence. What if she used one of those websites that identifies locations of convicted sex offenders. Then conveniently reconfigures her own network to use the same SSID as his knowing that her machine will innocently connect to it when her network "has problems". Her network would have needed to be offline, not just without internet access for her machine to wander to a different AP.

So now she has an alibi to gather evidence against a neighbor that she might not have wanted to be there and working the the police under the guise of innocently connecting to the wrong network, she gets the guy arrested. Hell, she could have planted the files there herself. I be the police never investigated as to whether those images came from her network, they just went after the person that appeared guilty.

See where this could have gone terribly wrong?

[hexjunkie]

Re: Evil Hackers hacking Wifi

[humor protocol]
I have the solution to the problem:

All open wireless access points are now my domain: E-mail me for me to grant you permission to access it.

All police will gain preference to my newly acquired network.

[legal notice: I am not responsible for the materials found on my newly acquired network]

[/humor protocol]

[Thorn]

Re: Evil Hackers hacking Wifi

You are partially right Thorn, some days I think I have been here too long :(

And where ever you live, I want to start shopping for a house!

My issues are with people always claiming to be the victim in a crime that they can take very easy steps to prevent. While people do not like blaming the victim and the most common cry is to what about rape victims.. rape and other violent crimes like murder and assault are the exception to blaming the victim(because there is no easy way to prevent these types of crimes).

In the case of the mortgage crisis, I look at some of the people complaining about their foreclosure, and find out that they signed for a 300+ thousand dollar loan that the combined household income is less that 50,000 a year and saying its the banks fault when they cant afford it, or the guy that didn't go to court, complain when there is a bench warrant out for his arrest, blah the list goes on and on. It is frustration on my part that people go I am the victim and I cannot be blamed... so forgive my previous rants I will now be quiet.

I've gone way to far off the original topic, so I removed a good portion of what I had posted.

I'm in Vermont.

I'm real big on personal responsibility. I've seen enough to know that a lot of stupidity is self inflicted. People SHOULD lock their doors and their access points. It just bothers me when the government says they MUST. IMO, freedom means you have the right to be stupid as part of the pursuit of happiness.

[YenTheFirst]

Re: Evil Hackers hacking Wifi

I'm confused as to why you think the police should be allowed to do that? There are laws regarding the trespass into computer networks, and the police would be violating that law by searching an open network without a warrant.

While what the guy was doing in that case you cited is revolting, I could see the defense going after "JH" as possibly intentionally intruding upon his network in an effort to gather evidence. What if she used one of those websites that identifies locations of convicted sex offenders. Then conveniently reconfigures her own network to use the same SSID as his knowing that her machine will innocently connect to it when her network "has problems". Her network would have needed to be offline, not just without internet access for her machine to wander to a different AP.

So now she has an alibi to gather evidence against a neighbor that she might not have wanted to be there and working the the police under the guise of innocently connecting to the wrong network, she gets the guy arrested. Hell, she could have planted the files there herself. I be the police never investigated as to whether those images came from her network, they just went after the person that appeared guilty.

See where this could have gone terribly wrong?

If you publish the fact that your'e doing something illegal on facebook, or on a sign in your window, do the police have to ignore that and not attempt to investigate further? If you leave your windows open, and someone outside your property can clearly see you doing something illegal, are the police 'trespassing' by standing outside your property, looking into your windows?

If your network is unsecured, you are literally broadcasting your own activities to the outside world. The police, and other citizens, don't have to pretend to be blind if you choose to do so.


As for your second assertion:
I could plant a murder weapon in your garbage can, 'innocently' notice it, and call the police.

There are laws requiring auto insurance
there are laws about installing your own electrical lines
there are laws about installing your own telephone lines
there are laws about installing your own roof, plumbing, blah blah blah

but there are no laws for installing network devices?

I'd be interested in looking at the particular laws. In my experience:
You're required to have liability, but not collision, insurance. You don't have to be able to pay to fix your own car, but if you land someone in the hospital, you HAVE to be able to pay for it. I think this is a fair thing for society to agree on - that if you want to drive a car, you have to have the cash up front for if you screw up.

Electrical should probably be up to code, but that doesn't mean you can't do it yourself.
I was under the impression that anything after the junction box was your responsibility, as long as it was electrically compatible.

as for all the examples, in general: all these things have a significant capacity to inflict harm on others. If you're selling a house, it's unreasonable for a potential buyer to rip out the walls to inspect all the wiring. They have to trust that the house you're selling has wiring which won't cause a fire a year down the road, or a roof that will collapse on them, etc.

the liability of an unsecured personal network is, really, limited to just yourself. Yes, you might become part of a botnet, etc., but the damage there is a tertiary effect.

[streaker69]

Re: Evil Hackers hacking Wifi

If you publish the fact that your'e doing something illegal on facebook, or on a sign in your window, do the police have to ignore that and not attempt to investigate further? If you leave your windows open, and someone outside your property can clearly see you doing something illegal, are the police 'trespassing' by standing outside your property, looking into your windows?

If your network is unsecured, you are literally broadcasting your own activities to the outside world. The police, and other citizens, don't have to pretend to be blind if you choose to do so.

But in the case of unsecured Wifi, you still must establish a connection to the network to see what is on it. Establishing that connection is in fact a violation of current law.

[YenTheFirst]

Re: Evil Hackers hacking Wifi

But in the case of unsecured Wifi, you still must establish a connection to the network to see what is on it. Establishing that connection is in fact a violation of current law.

You can sniff SMB broadcasts without actually connecting. I'd have to look at how iTunes broadcasts its shares.

No one bothered suing the neighbor for computer trespass in that case, so I'd be interested to see whether that would have played out.

[streaker69]

Re: Evil Hackers hacking Wifi

You can sniff SMB broadcasts without actually connecting. I'd have to look at how iTunes broadcasts its shares.

No one bothered suing the neighbor for computer trespass in that case, so I'd be interested to see whether that would have played out.

While that may be true, that is not what was done in this case, the police actually went to JH's house and she reconnected to the network after she realized she was on the wrong one.

I would say that the search warrant then was based upon evidence collected illegally.

[7h3d4rk4n63|]

Re: Evil Hackers hacking Wifi

Flame it needs be, but what would stop someone from (Rather than war-driving, lets keep the active\ passive debate out of this for a second) just not enabling security because he lives in a college student filled area where he can guess (With a certain degree of validity) that if his enormous internet bill and 802 jamming network were to suddenly take a turn for the better and give back to the community, with add on network of Wireshark devices of all sorts, sorting all kinds of filters, this shark bringing a myriad of friendly sniffer tools within (For network monitoring purposes off course) would this even be considered un-ethical? I mean, first impressions aside, who would be on who's network and thus liable to monitoring? Just something I had always wondered (Yes I know what a rogue AP is, but this is more like your friendly neighborhood IT guy, and his sharks )

[hexjunkie]

Re: Evil Hackers hacking Wifi

Flame it needs be, but what would stop someone from (Rather than war-driving, lets keep the active\ passive debate out of this for a second) just not enabling security because he lives in a college student filled area where he can guess (With a certain degree of validity) that if his enormous internet bill and 802 jamming network were to suddenly take a turn for the better and give back to the community, with add on network of Wireshark devices of all sorts, sorting all kinds of filters, this shark bringing a myriad of friendly sniffer tools within (For network monitoring purposes off course) would this even be considered un-ethical? I mean, first impressions aside, who would be on who's network and thus liable to monitoring? Just something I had always wondered (Yes I know what a rogue AP is, but this is more like your friendly neighborhood IT guy, and his sharks )

I am not sure what you just said?