U.S. Intelligence Analyst Arrested in Wikileaks Video Probe

[shrdlu]

Re: U.S. Intelligence Analyst Arrested in Wikileaks Video Probe

awe, i like and respect you, too, dearest... and i took no offense from your words.

You never know how things will be taken, especially when there's not enough caffeine in the blood to make me human. We are at the same crossroads now (I've had some coffee, but not enough.)

i still do not fully believe that it would be inappropriate for WikiLeaks (or any other journalistic enterprise) to privately review the material (with a keen eye for security as they did so) and attempt to see if there is a hidden item that is particularly egregious or heinous.

Same thing I said before. I think that most of what got dumped in their laps is random, and that even Manning, that candidate for a firing squad (and if you think that's bad, you should see what I wrote before), doesn't know what's in those documents.

I do NOT think that the Wikileaks folks are the enemy. I usually support their work. I give liberally to the EFF. Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. My point is this, however:

Currently, to my knowledge, no one has seen what's in most of the documents. In addition, there just is not any way in this lifetime for a bunch of well-meaning but uninformed "journalists" to read through and have an "eye" for security. There just isn't. It's going to be a nightmare to review as it is, and yes indeedy, sooner or later someone is going to be reviewing each and every line of each and every document to determine what the exposure was.

Here's another item for you to ponder. Some of what they may have (and please note, I said MAY HAVE) might jeopardize lives if released. It may be items that they don't recognize as having that ability. Still, the possibility is there.

The right thing for them to do is to just turn any non-published documents over.

As an aside, but an important one...

I have seen things that I did not agree with in my {mumble} years in the black world. If I did not agree with something I'd been briefed into, I asked to be transferred elsewhere, and debriefed. People with the courage of their convictions are willing to become unemployed to maintain those convictions (although it never happened that I did, I have indeed run that risk, and more than once). I will still take to the grave any of those things that I knew, and then officially did not know, after debriefing.

Some of us take our oaths seriously.

[fnord0]

Re: U.S. Intelligence Analyst Arrested in Wikileaks Video Probe

greets -
so I took the poll, and unlike many others I choose Q1 -> Yes.
(disclaimer) I am waay too much a pussy in RL to actually do what manning did, that took balls. that took guts.

with the 'collateral murder' data, personally I believe this information should be public, as well the Garani attacks. judging on this data alone, I think Manning did the right thing, not necessarilly the legal thing. as far as adrian lam(e)O, no respect for him or his co-horts in exposing Manning. snitching is the lowest of lows, even worse especially when a "journalist" does it! this sole event should cause lam(e)O to lose any and all journalism cred, henceforth imho.

I do see echos of americas past, from daniel ellsberg's pentagon papers and alot of the surrounding events.
of the recent articles that have come out, I've really enjoyed = http://www.consortiumnews.com/2010/061510.html

[edit]I felt this boing-boing comment #16 was a decent assesment of the current situation - but as below stated, it is politically charged and my understanding of the forum rules has expanded. thanks for the heads-up thecotman.
> quote removed, and condensed to a link.

[TheCotMan]

Re: U.S. Intelligence Analyst Arrested in Wikileaks Video Probe

greets -
so I took the poll, and unlike many others I choose Q1 -> Yes.
(disclaimer) I am waay too much a pussy in RL to actually do what manning did, that took balls. that took guts.

with the 'collateral murder' data, personally I believe this information should be public, as well the Garani attacks. judging on this data alone, I think Manning did the right thing, not necessarilly the legal thing. as far as adrian lam(e)O, no respect for him or his co-horts in exposing Manning. snitching is the lowest of lows, even worse especially when a "journalist" does it! this sole event should cause lam(e)O to lose any and all journalism cred, henceforth imho.

I do see echos of americas past, from daniel ellsberg's pentagon papers and alot of the surrounding events.
of the recent articles that have come out, I've really enjoyed = http://www.consortiumnews.com/2010/061510.html

and to spark some more discussion here, I found this post on one`a the maillists I subscribe to (hope u dont mind reposting here - the whole .. "it's easier to ask forgiveness than it is to get permission") ::

- From a boingboing comment

{CHOP}

Your quote (from boing boing comment) is politically charged and a violation of the rules we have on no politics and religion. Expressing praise or condemnation at a particular party or a government leader leads to problems on the forums, and is not allowed. Urging people to political action and describing what should happen to laws and political system as a call to political action are not the focus of the Defcon forums. If you have a strong interest in Politics, I believe that 2600 encourages political discussion in their on-line groups. Please remove the politically charged comments from the quote in your post. You may, instead, direct people with a URL to the comment on boing boing so people can respond to it there.

You have 24 hours to edit your post to remove the rule violation. If it persists after that, I will /dev/null your entire post.

Adding to the discussion is good, so long as we keep political action out of it and avoid getting "too political."

If you have a desire to play in the realm of discussion about politics, we have a discussion in /dev/null (Just what is too political) where we try to outline just how far is too far with political discussions.

The good news? The content you posted before the quote is within the realm of what is not too political. Hope that helps. Good luck on the forums.

Yeah, I put the "dick" in "dictator" because I enforce rules, but we have the rules of no Politics or Religion after we tried providing a forum for Politics and Religion. We learn from our past and look to improve the forums. All of the rules that exist were created to address problems -- they were not added trivially, but instead with thoughtful consideration and debate.

Edit: Updated:
Thanks fnord0. :-)

[fnord0]

Re: U.S. Intelligence Analyst Arrested in Wikileaks Video Probe

...adding to the discussion here => Gleen Greenwald produced a highly researched, and extensively hyperlink-sourced new post titled "The strange and consequential case of Bradley Manning, Adrian Lamo and WikiLeaks" for salon.com. imho, this is one of the better journalistic pieces to have come out since the news first hit that A.Lamo turned informant on Army Specialist Bradley Manning.

secondarily, double-G also posted two mp3 files attached at the end of the piece, which are the recorded Q`n`A sessions between double-G and Adrian Lamo. after having listened to both audio recordings, I must admit A.Lamo gets brownie points in my book for doing the interview, yet I still think very little of him and his actions. the whole interview is quite entertaining in-and-of-itself. GG and A.Lamo end up making a bet on how long Manning will rot in federal prison, which went a little something like this ;

A.Lamo: "I will bet you $10 or a beer at a hacker confrence that he doesn't do more then six months"
Glenn Greenwald: "oh, I'll take that bet"
...... ..... ......
A.Lamo: "...and, for both my sake and mr. mannings I hope you end up oweing me $10 and a beer"
Glenn Greenwald: "I don't expect to, but I think you should start saving up (we'll) see how that goes"
A.Lamo: "I'll start a piggy bank"

my thought is the files were posted in response to A.Lamo's tweet seemingly right before the interview took place... GG even goes to mention at the end of the article, "Lamo for some reason insists that I respond to a Tweet of his before we begin, which I then did."

one other excellent news piece was the democracy now report, and interview with (quoting the DN article)

"Daniel Ellsberg, who’s leaking of the Pentagon Papers has made him perhaps the nation’s most famous whistleblower; Birgitta Jónsdóttir, a member of the Icelandic Parliament who has collaborated with Wikileaks and drafted a new Icelandic law protecting investigative journalists; and Glenn Greenwald, political and legal blogger for Salon.com."

(unquote) where Daniel Ellsberg himself says,

"[...] I say throwing caution to the winds here -- is that what I've heard so far of Assange and Manning -- and I haven't met either of them -- is that they are two new heroes of mine."

imho, I heartily agree with the DEllsberg's comment - bravo.

[@ADAM421]

Re: U.S. Intelligence Analyst Arrested in Wikileaks Video Probe

greets -
so I took the poll, and unlike many others I choose Q1 -> Yes.
(disclaimer) I am waay too much a pussy in RL to actually do what manning did, that took balls. that took guts.

with the 'collateral murder' data, personally I believe this information should be public, as well the Garani attacks. judging on this data alone, I think Manning did the right thing, not necessarilly the legal thing. as far as adrian lam(e)O, no respect for him or his co-horts in exposing Manning. snitching is the lowest of lows, even worse especially when a "journalist" does it! this sole event should cause lam(e)O to lose any and all journalism cred, henceforth imho.

I do see echos of americas past, from daniel ellsberg's pentagon papers and alot of the surrounding events.
of the recent articles that have come out, I've really enjoyed = http://www.consortiumnews.com/2010/061510.html

[edit]I felt this boing-boing comment #16 was a decent assesment of the current situation - but as below stated, it is politically charged and my understanding of the forum rules has expanded. thanks for the heads-up thecotman.
> quote removed, and condensed to a link.

I totally agree that it took alot of balls for Manning to stand up and do what he felt he needed to instead of being a mindless soldier. I thought thats what we wanted in our military instead of robots?
Lamo is a RAT in my opinion. He could have given some guidance to Manning but instead he decided to take another course of action.
From what ive read it seems like some people think that Manning was wrong for just putting ish like that out there. Maybe they dont trust wikileaks maybe they feel like our soldiers are in more danger from pissed off Iraqies. I seem to think of the citizens being saved by soldiers thinking twice that someone might see what they are doing. hope thats not too political.*

[theprez98]

Re: U.S. Intelligence Analyst Arrested in Wikileaks Video Probe

I totally agree that it took alot of balls for Manning to stand up and do what he felt he needed to instead of being a mindless soldier. I thought thats what we wanted in our military instead of robots?

Not sure where you got this notion, but the military is not about standing up and doing what you feel you need to do. Your post presumes that a soldier is either "mindless" or an enlightened free thinker but you leave no possibility of anything in between. On the contrary.

Your notion flies directly in the face of the concept of the chain of command, and of military order and discipline. This isn't about disobeying an unlawful order; as a holder of a TS clearance his direct orders, and his responsibilities to death are to protect that information. I have no doubt, concerning both the video(s) and the diplomatic cables, that Manning (nor Wikileaks for that matter) does not understand the context, and thus truly does not have a real capacity to objectively evaluate this data. He is an intelligence analyst, not an expert in diplomacy, or the laws of war. Even if the information in question seems suspect to him, his responsibility is to report it to his chain of command, not to release it.

The notion that Manning is a hero is so far-fetched as to be laughable. Your hero will be found guilty is going to prison.

[astcell]

Re: U.S. Intelligence Analyst Arrested in Wikileaks Video Probe

Even if something deserves to be released, there are ways to do it. In some cases the info is hardly a secret, but the way the information was gathered is a secret. So we know what a bad guy had for lunch yesterday. Now they go kill their caterer and kitchen staff because of the leak. There is nothing secret about the meal, but the source is what is being protected. This is the most common sort of secret stuff that I have come in contact with.

His dissemination of this data can get people killed.

[Rhenium]

Re: U.S. Intelligence Analyst Arrested in Wikileaks Video Probe

Even if something deserves to be released, there are ways to do it. In some cases the info is hardly a secret, but the way the information was gathered is a secret. So we know what a bad guy had for lunch yesterday. Now they go kill their caterer and kitchen staff because of the leak. There is nothing secret about the meal, but the source is what is being protected. This is the most common sort of secret stuff that I have come in contact with.

His dissemination of this data can get people killed.

Actually the people who got killed here were innocent Iraqi's gunned down in cold blood by trigger happy pricks.

[theprez98]

Re: U.S. Intelligence Analyst Arrested in Wikileaks Video Probe

Actually the people who got killed here were innocent Iraqi's gunned down in cold blood by trigger happy pricks.

Why don't you tell us how you really feel!

I actually tried to type a response to this, but I don't even think it's worth it.

[Thorn]

Re: U.S. Intelligence Analyst Arrested in Wikileaks Video Probe

Actually the people who got killed here were innocent Iraqi's gunned down in cold blood by trigger happy pricks.

Please. "Innocents" armed with RPGs? You ought to at least look at the facts.

While the Reuters reporter and cameraman were apparently just doing their jobs, they were with an armed band, and were facing the same dangers as other frontline reporters. It's interesting to note that when the insurgents fire upon and hit reporters who are with US troops, no one bitches about the insurgents not following the proper ROE.

As to the children involved, it's a tragedy, but blame the people who brought them into an area where there was a live firefight and were using them for cover.

[Rhenium]

Re: U.S. Intelligence Analyst Arrested in Wikileaks Video Probe

Please. "Innocents" armed with RPGs? You ought to at least look at the facts.

While the Reuters reporter and cameraman were apparently just doing their jobs, they were with an armed band, and were facing the same dangers as other frontline reporters. It's interesting to note that when the insurgents fire upon and hit reporters who are with US troops, no one bitches about the insurgents not following the proper ROE.

As to the children involved, it's a tragedy, but blame the people who brought them into an area where there was a live firefight and were using them for cover.

I am not going to turn this into a flame war, so I will keep this short and not reply to further posts.

No one expects any kind of decency from the Taliban so we are not surprised by what they do. The US army holds (should hold) itself to a higher standard, so it is all the more galling when this so brazenly (hypocritically) occurs.

<End of transmission...>

[hexjunkie]

Re: U.S. Intelligence Analyst Arrested in Wikileaks Video Probe

I am not going to turn this into a flame war, so I will keep this short and not reply to further posts.

No one expects any kind of decency from the Taliban so we are not surprised by what they do. The US army holds (should hold) itself to a higher standard, so it is all the more galling when this so brazenly (hypocritically) occurs.

<End of transmission...>

[RANT]

I am not going to speculate on your military past nor the service of any of the members on this board. I will say that until anyone has been under fire or has been in a war situation, nobody has the right to speak about anything close to a higher standard. To do so is a disgrace to anyone who has served for the military or served over seas in a war situation.

If people want our solders to hold to a "higher standard" or to not serve like "robots" then by all means take up arms and join my brothers in the fight you believe should be more civil, then come back and speak about your experiences. If you feel you can talk the gun out of an assailants hand while they are hiding behind a child then please YOU do that. I, however, will take my rifle and attempt to avoid hitting the civilian, but I'll kill anyone who would attempt to hurt my brother even if that coward chose a child as a human shield.

I personally believe that our military, as a whole, is held to a higher standard; and in most cases it achieves those standards. In some cases bad intel or a coward uses an innocent as a human shield. In those cases I am sorry for that family's loss, and it is regrettable that their life had to be given up, but I personally would rather collateral damage occur than one American solider life be lost because people back home can't stomach the truth. The honest truth is that tactics have gotten better, intel has gotten better, training has gotten better, and our soldiers are better than they have ever been at any point in history. War is heinous, there is no glory, there is only a bloody mess where the innocent will die and people will suffer. Either you accept this fact or we back off and you see what real war is like first hand. I do not agree with the war, I believe all war is useless and a tragic waste of life. With that said I would rather see the fight elsewhere than in my back yard, and to this day I will still die to ensure the safety of our country. I will also support my brothers in arms until they are all home safe and sound. I will always mourn the fallen soldiers and I will never shed a tear for any enemy (foreign or domestic) that gets in the way of a soldier and the victory that his or her commander in chief has ordered.

I will end my rant by saying that I am glad that my friends could give up their lives so that you can sit here and bash them because they don't adhere to your "higher standard".

[/RANT]

[theprez98]

Re: U.S. Intelligence Analyst Arrested in Wikileaks Video Probe

[RANT]

I am not going to speculate on your military past nor the service of any of the members on this board. I will say that until anyone has been under fire or has been in a war situation, nobody has the right to speak about anything close to a higher standard. To do so is a disgrace to anyone who has served for the military or served over seas in a war situation.

If people want our solders to hold to a "higher standard" or to not serve like "robots" then by all means take up arms and join my brothers in the fight you believe should be more civil, then come back and speak about your experiences. If you feel you can talk the gun out of an assailants hand while they are hiding behind a child then please YOU do that. I, however, will take my rifle and attempt to avoid hitting the civilian, but I'll kill anyone who would attempt to hurt my brother even if that coward chose a child as a human shield.

I personally believe that our military, as a whole, is held to a higher standard; and in most cases it achieves those standards. In some cases bad intel or a coward uses an innocent as a human shield. In those cases I am sorry for that family's loss, and it is regrettable that their life had to be given up, but I personally would rather collateral damage occur than one American solider life be lost because people back home can't stomach the truth. The honest truth is that tactics have gotten better, intel has gotten better, training has gotten better, and our soldiers are better than they have ever been at any point in history. War is heinous, there is no glory, there is only a bloody mess where the innocent will die and people will suffer. Either you accept this fact or we back off and you see what real war is like first hand. I do not agree with the war, I believe all war is useless and a tragic waste of life. With that said I would rather see the fight elsewhere than in my back yard, and to this day I will still die to ensure the safety of our country. I will also support my brothers in arms until they are all home safe and sound. I will always mourn the fallen soldiers and I will never shed a tear for any enemy (foreign or domestic) that gets in the way of a soldier and the victory that his or her commander in chief has ordered.

I will end my rant by saying that I am glad that my friends could give up their lives so that you can sit here and bash them because they don't adhere to your "higher standard".

[/RANT]

Well said, you pretty much said everything I typed and then deleted this morning. :-)

[goathead]

Re: U.S. Intelligence Analyst Arrested in Wikileaks Video Probe

ignore: caffeine issue, misfire.

[Deviant Ollam]

Re: U.S. Intelligence Analyst Arrested in Wikileaks Video Probe

Please. "Innocents" armed with RPGs? You ought to at least look at the facts.

i'm fairly certain Rhenium was speaking about the innocent family who was passing by in the minivan and who were shot at when attempting to help someone.

until anyone has been under fire or has been in a war situation, nobody has the right to speak about anything close to a higher standard. To do so is a disgrace to anyone who has served for the military or served over seas in a war situation.

wearing of a uniform earns you honor, respect, and admiration. it is not a prerequisite, however, for freedom of speech. let's not try to pretend that people don't have the "right" to express whatever they feel simply because they haven't served.

I personally would rather collateral damage occur than one American solider life be lost

again, i feel that there is a sliding scale here... exactly how much collateral damage? some of our allies (well, our only ally) in the Middle East routinely approves massive shelling and air strikes into populated civilian areas when they have actionable intelligence about the location of known bad actors and terrorists. At times, the collateral damage is on a scale of dozens of innocents killed in the process of taking out one (admittedly legit) target.

just saying, there is a point at which "collateral damage" is not ok, wouldn't you agree? i'm not disagreeing with any specific example here... but trying to keep people away from such hard-and-fast absolutism.

I will end my rant by saying that I am glad that my friends could give up their lives so that you can sit here and bash

Rhenium is not from the USA, so the specific sacrifices of your brothers and sisters in uniform have no direct bearing on her freedoms.

That said, again i feel it might be a little better if folk understood more where her comments were coming from. I happen to believe that she was speaking (admittedly in a very animated way) with specific disdain for the violation of the rules of engagement that took place in this specific video.

I know Rhenium personally and am hard-pressed to believe that she is the type to make across-the-board comments in such a negative way. i think the wording just came across badly, in a topic-area that already makes emotions run a little hot to begin with.